Poll...What's Everyone Using to Program Drums?

[tomhartman]

I\'d like to get some feedback on what everyone is finding the most success with in sequencing their drum parts.

I still use a keyboard, and it just stinks. For any kind of complicated fills, it just causes me a lot of problems. I know some of you program the fills in with step time, which I find mind boggling (I would spend more time doing the math than playing), and others use pads.

Any great drum demos I\'ve heard were always done with pads, it turns out. How many of you use them?

Thanks for your input...

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Hi Tom,

I program drums with several different controllers, depending on the style and final application.

I have a TD-7 set, which is made up of eight two-zone pads, a hi-hat pedal, and a kick pedal. That one is great for getting the most \"sticking\" into a part, but is also at this time the most difficult to edit after the fact. When/if GigaStudio adds a dimension where multiple samples can be assigned to the same velocity split, this will be a MUCH better situation.

Another controller I use is a Roland Pad-5, which is a very cheesy little percussion pad they sold for a very short time. It has only five little pads and is intended to be played in a person\'s lap. While it is not a very flexible system, it\'s great for hand playing, and I have edited many instruments for use with it. I take it to every live gig, since it\'s so portable. I\'ve mapped Nick\'s QL Tabla to it, and boy that\'s fun.

Believe it or not, I also use my Wind Controller to program percussion. I also do this live schtick where I play a drumset solo on it and trade fours with the drummer, which is pretty funny.

I don\'t know if you\'re a drummer (I would condider myself only a hack drummer in the big picture, but I can get around pretty well on a number of percussion instruments). One thing that really helps, even programming from the keyboard, is knowing what patterns and what stickings are used for different grooves. A lot of \"inauthenticity\" in sequenced drum parts is about the way the kit is approached. People tend to program a lot more fills, for instance, than drummers actually play.

Anyway, that\'s what I\'m using.

Best regards,
Bruce

[Mark_Knecht]

Tom,
I just got back from my local drum shop picking up an 8-line snake for a trigger cable. Today I\'m hooking up the Hart Dynamics Multipad that I got through a Pro Tools user to my DM5 that I got from Ebay.

My area is generally pop/jazz/world-beat type stuff. My strategy right now is to use pre-packaged patterns from an inexpensive program called Drumtrax ($49) for the main drum stuff, and then add a lot of percussion type fills (not toms!!) and what not using the pads with the DM5. After that, I\'ll edit as necessary.

I\'ll play the pad drums using the DM5 in real time for recording/latency reasons, and then point the MIDI data at GigaSampler and my custom drum sets when I\'m down to recording audio for my mix.

Hope this makes sense. If not, ask some questions.

Cheers,
Mark

[This message has been edited by Mark_Knecht (edited 03-27-2002).]

[KingIdiot]

hey Tom

Yah step writing is for wussies....er wait...thats what I do. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Its actually not that hard too do this. You get used to waht you want/like and how to get it out.

Especially in the snare dept.

Doing it real time really can hurt the quality/performance if you\'re not a drummer. While it may add a \"human\" feel, it can sometime jsut sound bad.

So I say look into step writing a little and get used to it. Its actually quicker to do it ithis way than to try and perform/play a fill that takes you multiple takes to get right

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Really...I am an Idiot

[laz]

hi tom,
i step in the drums quite a bit.i also sequence with sonar (cakewalk)and it has quite a few things to do to make the job a little easier.i also use some drum tracks like \"kick-n jazz\" its an audio cd with midi files all played by bernard purdie. its a great tool.but the important thing with that cd is that it comes also with DNA beat blocks, which when you load into a groove quantinize program it copys the feel of that drum performance to say tighten up the bass or keyboard part.

[dwdonehoo]

Go here:
http://www.geocities.com/midibrainz/ (\"http://www.geocities.com/midibrainz/\")

Get it. It is free.
The next version of Sonar is supposed to have a drum programming tool. I am looking forward to it.

--------------
Doyle W. Donehoo
Radar Music
http://www.sierra-trails.com/radarmusic.html (\"http://www.sierra-trails.com/radarmusic.html\")
http://www.mp3.com/Doyle_W_Donehoo (\"http://www.mp3.com/Doyle_W_Donehoo\")

[dwdonehoo]

On another note:
Hey Bruce!
I have heard a lot of your very expressive classical inspired works, but never anything the was really percussive. Do you have some examples? Do you have a web site with examples? It would be interesting to me anyway to hear something along these lines...

[Munsie]

Cool topic, I\'m a drummer. Fairly good again after playing again seriously the past 2 years. (For the first time in a lloonngg time..) In any event, a very good tip to add realism to your sequenced drums, step or realtime, is to \"think\" like a human drummer when doing your drum parts.

2 hands, 2 feet.

Especially in a situation like mine where I\'m attempting to sound like a real rock band via midi. (yah I know....yada yada..)

Never play more drums/cymbals at a time then you could if you were actually sitting behind a kit.

As a drummer it\'s kind of funny to hear a constant crash or ride cymbal being played while a snare/tom roll/fill is taking place.

The majority of drummers will never hit a crash and an open hi hat at the same time either. If a crash was on the 1st beat, they would hit the crash on the 1st beat followed by 3 open hi hat hits.

While it is common for some drummers to keep time with a 1/4 beat closed hit hat pedal, rarely do you see a real drummer keeping time with a 1/8 beat closed hi hat pedal. That\'s ALOT of foot action in the long run, especially at faster tempos. However, in jazz this is more common due to lesser demands of the bass drum.

Keep the fills simple. Unless you\'re trying to convince your listeners that you have Niel Peart from Rush as your drummer, keep your fills and bass drum patterns simplistic. It\'s quite funny to hear some sequenced drum patterns have blidingly fast bass drum riffs. When emulating a single bass drum player, never go faster than a 16th beat bass hit. (And even THAT is a stretch for the majority of drummers.) For a double bass player, this is common, but a 32nd beat is pressing it. Repeated phrases of 32nd bass drum beats would quickly signal a sequenced part.

Some common drum riffs that sound cool:

Classic riff, play this one using 1/4 beats up to 32nd beats to realize what it can do.

Snare, mid tom, low tom, bass drum.

Triplets: These sound cool at fast tempos.

Snare, Tom, Bass Drum or
Hi tom, mid tom, bass drum.

John Bohnam made the rock world aware of triplets and the use of the first riff.

Quads:

Actually the first example is a quad also.

(snare, tom1, tom2, bass drum).

But Niel Peart from Rush made popular the use of quads on a double bass drum setup. He would use this riff in several songs (Anthem, Tom Sawyer, etc.) and has always been a feature of his drum solos. Interestingly, in his recent drum videos he mentions he likes to use the classic quads now. (snare, tom1, tom2, bass drum)

Quads with double bass drums can be played at VERY fast tempos due to the fact this isn\'t really too taxing on the correct drummer.

Note: Some single bass drum players can do the double bass quad, at slower tempos of course.

Double Bass Quads (3 examples):

tom1, tom2, bass drum 1, bass drum 2
snare, tom2, bass drum 1, bass drum 2
snare, snare, bass drum 1, bass drum 2

Again, by playing the above using 1/4 beats up to 32nd beats you\'ll be able to hear how dramatic quads can be.

When quads are played REAL fast you basically end up with a flam on the toms and a flam on the bass drums.

Sorry for the ramble... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[KingIdiot]

GREAT TIPS Munz,

I agree with the whole \"think like a human drummer\"

Tahts a main issue.

other things to consider guys,

Accent some cymbal hits with the bass drum.

Think about how hard a drumme is actually hitting a drum and if its even possible to hit the drum that hard if he\'s playing fast.

Velocity plays a BIG issue with fills. Even if you program it right with the \"math\" and its \"human\" if its the wrong velocities, you can obviously tell its sequenced.

try syncopation with accenting the \"ands\" of a count with open hi hats or cymbals...Chinas and splashes are great...or tambourine even.

watch videos of drummers you like, and learn waht they are doing AND how their kit is set up, then you can try emulating the extra cymbals with programming and pitch shifting other cymbals.

Like two china cymbals, one left and one right.

Talk to drummers if you know any they can help. Jam with drummers and pay attention to them if you can.

Even write your parts with a real drummer then sequence them if you can.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
GREAT TIPS Munz,

I agree with the whole \"think like a human drummer\"

Tahts a main issue.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Lots of good points guys.

I grew up in rock bands, been playing a long time. But I am guitarist and keyboard guy, and though I know what I want to hear, I couldn\'t actually sit down and play it on real set.

In the early 80s a guy named Joe Galdo did all my drum programming on jingles, documentaries, and the like. He was a great drummer who was one of the first guys in Miami with a Linn 9000. He did all the drum work for Gloria Estefan\'s early hits, and wrote a few of them himself.

He would show me how he would be careful not to have the hi-hat going during a fill, all that basic stuff. And his fills were very open and simple.

However in a lot of rock the fills aren\'t they simple...or they are simple but include just one quick burst of a snare roll to start the fill off, and that\'s where I have trouble with realism part. Step timing that end can be done, I\'m sure, because I\'ve heard King\'s work and he\'s great at it. More commonly, the drum demos I\'ve heard sequenced that sound unreal are played on pads by a real drummer. Since I\'m not, maybe the step time thing is the way to go. But with the right multi velocity samples, the pad at least takes care of having to program in velocites.

I just don\'t like the feel of doing it from the keyboard, and I like it even less now that I\'m using GIGA, because compared to triggering samples off my 5080 there\'s definitely a lag. So that makes things even rougher....


Anyway, thanks for all the great tips. It\'s good to hear how everyone wrestles the beasts out there...

[KingIdiot]

hey Tom,

You can step input velocities as well.

Usually what I do is set step write to 16th note lengths.

then I input the notes by striking the keys on the keyboard (all in cubase).

I use the mouse to select where I want the step write to take place.

This combination lets me create a really good rough, and sometimes final performance.

I personally think that if you\'re not a drummer, this is the way to go.

I can\'t play drums but can play out the basics of the hand patterns I want on a kit,...still I know that I haven\'t been practicing drums so it would sound pretty bad if I tried to perform it in the end. While it would get the right part and maybe feel....if I do it enough times, the accents and playing jsut wouldn\'t be right.

anyhow.... glad you like the stuff I do

mayeb the reason I\'m used to step writing is because I sequenced a 24 minute song on a DR-5 years ago. Complete with fills and all to \"emulate\" the drummer in my bad....jsut so I could practice and work out parts on that.....epic..... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif




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Really...I am an Idiot

[dwdonehoo]

Hey KI, how do people know what you do or sound like? I have heard only two things: do you have a website or something?

I have played with a bunch of fine drummers in this area (with me on bass), so drum programming comes fairly naturally for me. But I figure I am always working with a drummer and a percussionist, which allows me to cheat! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif Still, I have spent a lot of time tabing out a number of drummers like N. Peart and B. Bruford who I have seen up really close (within two or three feet)(Rototom kit, nice.) Nothing like a real pro to part your hair and give you pause for thought. But this would be my advice: find a drummer you like and tab out a bunch of measures and enter drum data in any way you feel comfortable with.

[KingIdiot]

hey Doyle,

well there\'s a couple of places
www.musicyouneed.com (\"http://www.musicyouneed.com\") has a very old demo in the samples section (dont go to the mp3 site... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif )
www.musicyouneed/com/stuff/ (\"http://www.musicyouneed/com/stuff/\")

has alot of the newer stuff that gets left on the back burner as unused stuff or as demos


and
http://www.musicyouneed.com/drums/Drumthingy1.mp3 (\"http://www.musicyouneed.com/drums/Drumthingy1.mp3\")

is something I popped together for that \"drum contest\" that Jim sort of started. definitely not my best drum programming, but it was only a few hours for the whole thing including guitars.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[tomhartman]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KingIdiot:
[B]hey Tom,

\"You can step input velocities as well.\"

Of course...yeah...but it just seems so much more natural to play them. Guess it\'s what you\'re used to.

I usually slow the sequence down and play the stuff. But I think what is goofing me up the most is that I\'m doing everything one track at a time.....hi hat, snare, toms, etc. It just kills the feel for me. That\'s probably an error on my part, because the way I\'ve had performances set for years is to have one channel for each instrument....instead of having a whole set laid out where I can do more at once. But any way you look at it, playing drums off the keyboard in real time...even slowed down real time...stinks. For me anyway. I must find another way soon, because I\'m really hating my drum tracks a lot. I hope that the new libraries will help that you and I\'ve spoken about. I should get them soon. As usual, thanks for your tips!

[dwdonehoo]

KingIdiot: \"well there\'s a couple of places www.musicyouneed.com (\"http://www.musicyouneed.com\") has a very old demo in the samples section (dont go to the mp3 site... ) www.musicyouneed/com/stuff/ (\"http://www.musicyouneed/com/stuff/\") \"

Thanks! One of the best demos of yours so far was the VOTA and filtered percussion thing you did not long ago. That I really liked. Which reminds me, I need percussion much like heard at the beginning of the VOTA2 demo. Aside waiting for Nick to cough up his next lib http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif , how else can this kind of percussion be obtained? I don\'t recognise those kind of drums. Maybe they are processed a bunch or are world. And hey Nick, if you are reading this, in your new percussion bed collection, will you also be including individual instruments so us poor saps can do transitions (for these loops)? Just wondering.

[KingIdiot]

hey Doyle,

The drums in that demo was jsut a loop from Percussive Adventures. You can get it at .com

The filters was just a couple of weird stuff I put on from a couple of different apps.

I\'ve been getting into beat tweaking and filtering.

Here are a couple of program\'s to check out

Beat Creator, when you order let them know I sent you. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I get no kick backs or snything, he\'s just appreciative of it and I liek to let him know I\'m telling people about his software. Great app for tweaking grooves, allows you to build recyclable loosp too.

Fruity Loops. I used to really hate this app, now I\'m realizing how usefull it can be. Its great for filters and effects, and...some... step writing. Its got a very weird way of makign triplets and 32nds. BUT it sill is pretty cool

Acid, of course everyone knows this piece of software is cool.

Acombination of all these pieces of softare and Giga can get you going with some cool stuff. I mean you can program filter responses to parts of loops and play it all back via MIDI and adjsut the filters in realtime to make some really cool playable stuff.

Also try effecting parts of beats with dopplers and stuff.


Its REALLY easy to get lost in this stuff. I have a new appreciation for people like BT, and Eric Persing and how much they must do (and go through) to give us the cream of the crop stuff they put out in libraries.



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Really...I am an Idiot