Woodwinds and Brass etc. [Archive] - Northern Sound Source

PatS

03-27-2002, 07:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by composer22:
1) As an artist you should reflect your time - whether you know it or not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? Should? By whose authority? The queen\'s? George W.\'s? Your philosophy professor\'s? I\'ve heard of sweeping generalizations, but you\'ve just wiped out the entire Western hemisphere with that one.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If I hear one more octatonic collection I will puke. He could never handle the demands of a hollywood composer becuase he\'s stuck in writing the same damned piece again and again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow! It\'s a good thing Stephen Albert isn\'t alive, or he\'d probably curl up in a fetal position, no doubt covered in your puke, after giving back his Pulitzer Prize. No more octatonic collections? Not even Collection II? May I still listen to Stravinsky\'s ballets? Is Agon OK? I really like \"Bransle Gay.\" But shame on Stravinsky for using such an old form. I just don\'t know what to think about his \"compositional abilities\" anymore. That\'s it: I hereby declare that Igor Stravinsky is a hack! Anyone interested in my Stravinsky CDs and scores?

What is a composer to do? How about if each of us contrives our own 53-note scale and then writes soul-revealing music for the Semantic (see http://www.alaindanielou.org/semantic/semantic.htm (\"http://www.alaindanielou.org/semantic/semantic.htm\"))? Nope! Someone\'s already done that. What if we play our melodies backward and forward simultaneously? Nope! J.S. Bach coined that technique. Gotta think 21st Century! 21st Century! Gotta think like a post-modernist! Too late! Former (reformed?) post-modernists are now thinking like pre-fore-post-haste-modernists. OK, levity aside, may we at least use A4? Yes, I know, Mozart used A4 quite a bit. As did Beethoven, Brahms, Sibelius, Debussy, Ravel, Copland, Dallapicola, Boulez, etc. As does Torke, Adès, etc. Regardless, may we please use it? We promise to give it back to its rightful owner, if you just tell us who that person is.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Nothing personal =)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? (How\'s that for a recapitulation? Or am I not allowed to speak in Sonata Allegro form?)

Pat

Coda: You would better serve your \"arguments\" with some examples from the literature. Otherwise, you end up sounding like some of the sophomore music majors I\'ve had the misfortune of teaching: just enough knowledge to think you\'re God\'s gift to the music world but not enough to know what the heck you\'re talking about. Cite actual pieces and measure numbers, not just names. I have plenty of scores at home and can dig up more at the university.

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 03-27-2002).]

03-27-2002, 07:30 PM

Pat just opened up a can of whuparse!

That\'s scary man.

Wonderful post!

Now I don\'t want to see you two wrastling all over the place, because you\'re supposed to fight within your own weight divisions ;-)

notemover

03-27-2002, 09:03 PM

No, Pat just opened a whole case of Whuparse! (waterboy quote) LOL

Great post! Composition is about interpreting our deepest and truest of feelings by whatever means we choose (at least for me it is) We have a whole pallet of colors to work with now. There are no new colors. But what colors we choose to bring to the canvas, what brush we use, and our personal perspective on life gives our work it personality and it\'s ability to speak to another. I find something to take and learn from each piece I have listened to. Degrading someone\'s life\'s work is just rude. If you don\'t like it fine... But by telling someone they suck is a big turn off and the sure fastest way to get people to not listen to what you have to say as a composer.
notemover

composer22

03-27-2002, 09:49 PM

Screw you PatS and screw the western hemisphere. An artist does reflects his time. He cant help but to react. And that\'s what missing. He write early french music but never lived in that rhyme or reason to understand why they wrote that way.

And screw Stephen Albert for giving up his prize. If he had kept it maybe he wouldn\'t have gone off and did himself an auto accident. Serves him right.

Sophomoric? No problem. I\'ll keep my DMA. Were you supposed to impress me with that \"Im a teacher\" BS? Have to look up the scores at the local university? hmmm mymy Are you kidding? If you were half a comp teacher you would have the library memorized by now. I guess you

As for examples, why not start with Daphne and Chloe and work your way up and down. Move onto any of the rv Williams earlier symphonies. Im not going to bother pushing measures your way. Im too busy writing my next chamber piece.

Get this:

\"Composition is about interpreting our deepest and truest of feelings by whatever means we choose \"

Have you ever heard anything so silly in all your life?

As for being nice - plenty of ugly pissy composer wrote great works. Work stands on its own. They didn\'t.

Jeremy Soule\'s demos and orchestration are very good. Rich farm money can buy anything.

If you wanna be a lame brane and listen to some good FS..i dunno, go listen to some Chris Young. At least that\'s pallatable.

I personally will go get some Morton Feldman, and I don\'t give a SH**T what he would think about it.

dwdonehoo

03-27-2002, 09:54 PM

Way to go Pat! Great response. Much better than my, \"Oh yeah! Well...well soz your old lady!\" Something about this reminds me of that old saying, \"There is nothing more aggravation than someone who thinks they know it all...to those of us who do.\" http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

sri_bubba

03-27-2002, 10:38 PM

Wow, composer22, you were doing OK there, having your opinion (ill-informed as others may think it is) and standing your ground in a nice flame-fest, where the loser is generally determined less by who\'s right or wrong, but by who looks the more stupid between the contestants...which brings us to how you\'re looking right about now...

You lost it when your ego took over, man. Bad form in the company this forum keeps.

I\'m thankful you\'re not one of my teachers. Or (pardon me) one of my students. I always thought music was a shared experience, and differences in preference added spice and learning opportunity to one\'s enjoyment of the art. Guess I\'ve not had access to the levels of exclusivity or refinement you have.

WHICH BRINGS UP...

Love to hear one or more of YOUR demos. Got any? It\'d be nice to have something to admire about you besides the enlightened, rare insights you\'ve delivered in such soliloqic, rhapsodic form.

I noticed your profile lists your occupation as \"FS composer\". Does that mean \"Film Score?\" If so, which? If I don\'t already have the soundtrack, why, I believe I\'ll run right out and get it.

Think I\'ll go wash my mouth out with soap now.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by composer22:
Screw you PatS and screw the western hemisphere. An artist does reflects his time. He cant help but to react. And that\'s what missing. He write early french music but never lived in that rhyme or reason to understand why they wrote that way.

And screw Stephen Albert for giving up his prize. If he had kept it maybe he wouldn\'t have gone off and did himself an auto accident. Serves him right.

Sophomoric? No problem. I\'ll keep my DMA. Were you supposed to impress me with that \"Im a teacher\" BS? Have to look up the scores at the local university? hmmm mymy Are you kidding? If you were half a comp teacher you would have the library memorized by now. I guess you

As for examples, why not start with Daphne and Chloe and work your way up and down. Move onto any of the rv Williams earlier symphonies. Im not going to bother pushing measures your way. Im too busy writing my next chamber piece.

Get this:

\"Composition is about interpreting our deepest and truest of feelings by whatever means we choose \"

Have you ever heard anything so silly in all your life?

As for being nice - plenty of ugly pissy composer wrote great works. Work stands on its own. They didn\'t.

Jeremy Soule\'s demos and orchestration are very good. Rich farm money can buy anything.

If you wanna be a lame brane and listen to some good FS..i dunno, go listen to some Chris Young. At least that\'s pallatable.

I personally will go get some Morton Feldman, and I don\'t give a SH**T what he would think about it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

composer22

03-27-2002, 10:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Wow, composer22, you were doing OK there, having your opinion (ill-informed as others may think it is) and standing your ground in a nice flame-fest, where the loser is generally determined less by who\'s right or wrong, but by who looks the more stupid between the contestants...which brings us to how you\'re looking right about now...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

C22: Yeah, well I\'ve been up for a few days, man.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I\'m thankful you\'re not one of my teachers.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

C22: Actually, its a totally different experience..foolishness aside.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I noticed your profile lists your occupation as \"FS composer\". Does that mean \"Film Score?\"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

C22: no comment. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

KevinH

03-27-2002, 11:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by composer22:
I have ordered Garritan Strings.

I saw plenty of suggestions about WW and Brass over the course of a few years ago here; however, I am wondering what is the current concensus for filling in WW and brass libraries if I have nothing?

My current on suggestions is:

WW: Dan Dean Solo + XSample (for clarinets)

Brass: Dan Dean Solo + Quantum Leap Brass

But perhaps someone has something better?

If I get these libraries are they enough? Or is AO and Miroslav STILL needed??

Extra Credit: I heard Jeremy Soule\'s demos at the Garritan String site. Do you think these demos use off the shelf samples, custom samples or live players for teh brass and WW?

Regards

Composer22

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello,

I recently emailed Jeremy and asked if he could shed some light on his woodwind collection. Yes, they are all custom samples...

Doh!

composer22

03-27-2002, 11:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KevinH:
Hello,

I recently emailed Jeremy and asked if he could shed some light on his woodwind collection. Yes, they are all custom samples...

Doh!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I figured they were. I almost want to say that they were snippets from actual CD recordings of other pieces by classical composers - Ravel, v. williams, sibelius.

I\'m not at all impressed with his compositional abilities, or his meanor. He is living outside of that early 20th century time and not quite in ours - post modernizm as a compositional reasoning excluded.

However, I do have to give him his credit for orchestration, and his interest in making it.

Thomas_J

03-28-2002, 04:51 AM

Great post indeed, PatS. I feel proud to have your company when rebels like this guy shows up.

Just a few words; If I\'ve understood you right, Composer22, I believe I could say with confidence that you are one of those who contribute to the movement of \"pling plong music\", and its will to keep on resurfacing just when you thought that that musical period was over.

It is people like you who should be held responsible for the horrible concert material they throw in our faces these days.

You are entitled to your opinion, but until you give us some hard \"evidence\" that Jeremy Soule is \"ripping off\" music on a conscious level, I will not take you seriously.

Thomas

A_Sapp

03-28-2002, 05:21 AM

I\'m off to polish my gun...

Simon Ravn

03-28-2002, 06:19 AM

Composer22, are you a guy formerly known as Endicott?

Worra

03-28-2002, 06:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by composer22:

Brass: Dan Dean Solo + Quantum Leap Brass

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://www.biggagiggas.com/About%20BOB.htm (\"http://www.biggagiggas.com/About%20BOB.htm\")
/Worra http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Worra (edited 03-28-2002).]

A_Sapp

03-28-2002, 04:46 PM

I can tell composer22 that you\'re actually a smart fellow by the way you express your thoughts, but like so many others, your arrogance blinds your acceptance to the truths about this debate. \"A composer should remain in their own time period.\" <--- Ba-Hum Bug. I could nag on this subject all day, but I must relieve myself on the pot, amen?

03-28-2002, 05:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by A_Sapp:
I can tell composer22 that you\'re actually a smart fellow by the way you express your thoughts, but like so many others, your arrogance blinds your acceptance to the truths about this debate. \"A composer should remain in their own time period.\" <--- Ba-Hum Bug. I could nag on this subject all day, but I must relieve myself on the pot, amen?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, I think he\'s just honest. More composers than would care to admit think like this. Sometimes it helps to think \"Hell, I could do better than that\". I think Shaffer probably nailed Mozart (at least in terms off inner-life) in his play \'Amadeus\'; a bit of farting at \'the opposition\'.

His opinion won\'t hurt anyone. I must admit, I liked \"screw the western hemisphere!\" hee, hee. Now, that is one big beef!

And it also gave us a chance to see Pat weaving a beautiful composition. It\'s all good fun.

Honesty is always refreshing.

Please don\'t pick on me Pat :-)

PatS

03-28-2002, 06:30 PM

Well, I thought composer22\'s response was a hoot and delightfully primal. Good one, mate!

His initial point is actually worth exploring. Just throw out the word \"should,\" which sounds like a soft \"must,\" though I tend to hear it as a \"Thou shalt.\" The hegemony of serialism in the Academy during the late \'50s through the better part of the \'70s (was there a \"better\" part?) is a moment in history I hope we never repeat. Not so much for the serialism (well, some of it), but for the \"Thou shalt write serial music and nothing else lest ye be cast out of our glorious kingdom\" attitude. Even Goldsmith jumped on that bandwagon.

So, to examine composer22\'s initial point, let me ask a few questions. Here goes. Gulp! Do you folks believe today\'s music reflects our time? If so, how does a composer do it? (composer22: How do you do it?) And what is \"our time\" such that one may reflect it musically? Mind you, I\'m not comfortable asking these questions, as they\'re just a tad broad (a tad?) and perhaps a bit silly, though hand me a glass of Chardonnay (or a pint of dark ale), and I\'ll talk about anything. Nonetheless, feel free to use them as a springboard into topics more manageable than these. At the moment, I have a massive headache and shoulder-ache from sleeping in my 5-year-old\'s bed last night (nightmares all night long), so I have the attention span of a . . . . What? Huh? Hey, Z6, what are you doing here?

G\'night y\'all!

Pat

P.S. Z6: I have to confess that I was trying to emulate your witty style. Please don\'t sue me for copyright infringement. I didn\'t encounter any license-key prompts or locate a license agreement, so I figured your product was free to the general public. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 03-28-2002).]

Jamieh

03-28-2002, 07:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Do you folks believe today\'s music reflects our time?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In general, I feel the music that truely reflects our \"time\" is the popular stuff you tend to hear on the radio. You may consider it trash and drivel and the what not, but that is the music that defines our \"time\" now, and is the music that most people remember.

Orchestral music has taken a significant back seat to rock bands and other popular music groups. So much so that among my friends, very few of them (other than the one that is a high school band conductor) ever listen to orchestral music. Most of them haven\'t a clue about it.

I DO know this--the \"avant-garde\" music that has been coming out of universities has not registered a blip with anyone that might be considered part of the \"common populace\". The ideas of anonality and such might be interesting from the respect that they are new and different, but perhaps one should consider that there is a REASON that previous composers did not write that way--because it sounds really really bad. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 03-28-2002).]

03-28-2002, 10:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jamieh:

I DO know this--the \"avant-garde\" music that has been coming out of universities has not registered a blip with anyone that might be considered part of the \"common populace\".
[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 03-28-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it is one of the great tragedies of the twentieth century that somehow \'taste\' itself seemed to get hijacked.

I believe we lost more than a generation of great talent because of this; and it may even have been worse in the art world, where a tiny number of people \'dictated\' what was, and was not, \'art\'.

Another sadness (I believe) is that atonal music (or any \'style\') in itself, is not necessarily as bad as the rap it has been given. (\'Rap\' incidentally, could be a popular analogy of the same effect: rap is rammed down our throats by the media because it\'s pretty easy to \'create\' a rap star. For some reason, rap is \'cool\' while \'country\', for example, is uncool (although there have been some recent efforts to make country \'cooler\').)

But some of these \'modern\' styles are so easy to \'fake\' that the bandwagon was bursting and any real talent may have been missed (not to mention if you didn\'t write in a given style, you might be classed as \'out of your time\' or \'old fashioned\' or derivative).

Film music is at least a commercial arena where composers can flourish. I\'ve never heard a single person in any audience complain about the music being too atonal. Film makes sense of the music for the audience.

I think Nemesys technology will help to end the \'tyranny of the modern\' that was prevalent some years ago when I studied music.

All the treaure is out there. Modern kids can emulate whole orchestras for a few hundred dollars, you don\'t even have to learn to read music. It is an exciting time.

jubal

03-28-2002, 10:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Z6:

I think Nemesys technology will help to end the \'tyranny of the modern\' that was prevalent some years ago when I studied music.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Z6, do you work for Nemesys? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

composer22

03-29-2002, 01:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I believe I could say with confidence that you are one of those who contribute to the movement of \"pling plong music\", and its will to keep on resurfacing just when you thought that that musical period was over.
It is people like you who should be held responsible for the horrible concert material they throw in our faces these days.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh really? You haven\'t even heard MY music to call it anacronistic. We\'ve heard plenty of Jeremy Souflee to establish pretty marketly that the style and music he steals is definitively anacronistic...like your mama

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jamieh:

I DO know this--the \"avant-garde\" music that has been coming out of universities has not registered a blip with anyone that might be considered part of the \"common populace\". The ideas of anonality and such might be interesting from the respect that they are new and different, but perhaps one should consider that there is a REASON that previous composers did not write that way--because it sounds really really bad. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 03-28-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I\'ve heard plenty of great atonal music, and I\'ve heard plenty of BAD atonal music. And I could say the same about \"tonal\" music as well - in any university and in your own sporty \"commercial\" world. University has nothing to do with it. And who said utilitarianism is better?

Let be liberal, but noooo...not if its NOT tonal...thanks for your open mind.

Van gogh just farted in his coffin.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Z6:

Film music is at least a commercial arena where composers can flourish. I\'ve never heard a single person in any audience complain about the music being too atonal. Film makes sense of the music for the audience.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Film makes sense of the [atonal] music for the audience? Wha? I\'ve listened to plenty of \"Tonal\" music off the screen and it doesn\'t make musical sense either? That right of mediocracy isn\'t just owned by atonal music. Its the film, stupid...

What\'s the point in this diatribe? Only this: A great composer can make great music out of anything. The greatest of greatest composers did it by having the balls to do the impossible and against all odds.

I\'d like to thank the Romantic Academy of Music for this reward:

To Beethoven, who took the sonata form to the edge and in so doing broke the form for others never to use in quit ethe same way again and in so doing broke tonality forever. Long live your late string quartets. I love ya baby.

To Wagner, who decided one morning after bad that Dom7 chords were the tonics in any key.

To Debussy, who decided that Germans were invading the french sense of nationalism, and took it on himself to do something about it by writing the exact opposite of whatever Herr wagner was doing at that moment.

To Stravinsky, who took the French interest in old forms and counterpoint and mixed in alittle russian sensibility and politik.

To mourssorsky, for helping Debussy and Stravinsky overcome their british sensibilities.

To Schoenberg...for recognizing the pattern in all those cyclic transformations that composers were experimenting in at the time(as a means to extend tension in their music) after Wagner killed tonality once and for all, and discovered his own \"simple\" means of the row for organizing structure and motif.

To Alban Berg - for taking emerging atonal structuralism and making his own tonal language.

To Webern, for understanding less is more and not speaking too loudly about it.

To Boulez, for trying to restore order in the world after WWII, failing, and then shutting the F**K up.

To Uncle Morton, Forte, Howie and Morris...for giving me a deep insight in how to manipulate musical materials in unique and helpful ways, for recognizing how sets can be used universally in any kind of music, and for helping in creating my own language.

To Morton Feldman - the most original american composer ever written, for showing me that having my own language may not be enough, and may not be needed at all.

To all those DMA students out there, that spent all those years and megabucks getting degrees and writing their dissertations. I\'ve read them all...and at only 20-30 bucks a pop, saved myself TONS of money by having you do all the work for myself. You presented incredible insight but failed to understand how to use that insight creatively....I take your insights and digest them like barbecue pork ribs, spitting out incredible works of art.

thank you thank you thank you...you love me you reeeaaaally reeaaaly love me.

P.S.

Q: How to write good music?

A: Its understanding the materials in new and interesting ways, Stupid.

Q: How do you understand the materials.

A: Ahhhh...by writing good music.

Wish I could write more clearly, but hey, I\'m a composer and music is my natural language. So is sleep....*yawn

Robert Kral

03-29-2002, 01:10 AM

Z6

I relate to your comments above. At University I HAD to write in a certain style. When I\'d write in my own style I was ridiculed for sounding a bit like \"film music, and that\'s NOT what we\'re on about here\" by the head of the composing department!

My rule of thumb at that university in order to make the grades was whenever something sounded pleasant or tonal, change it.

Jamieh

03-29-2002, 03:19 AM

I also had the same experience in college (about a decade ago). The basic advice from those studying composition was \"don\'t bother--if you are any good they will make sure they ruin you before you get out.\"

I attended concert upon concert upon concert featuring stuff that the composition students were putting out, and it was all a bunch of noise--random notes with no form or function whatsoever. Yet the professors seemed to think it was just wonderful. It was all \"new and exciting\". I think the only concert that was even mildly interesting was when an oboe player decided to hook his oboe up to a guitar fuzz amp and write a piece centered around it. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif At least that was good for the entertainment value of hearing an electric oboe, even if it did blow out my ears. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

New ideas can be fantastic. But writing music explicitly for the sake of being \"new\" is not the way to go about it. Write good music. Don\'t force people to write bad music in the name of being \"new and original\".

Simon Ravn

03-29-2002, 04:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jamieh:
New ideas can be fantastic. But writing music explicitly for the sake of being \"new\" is not the way to go about it. Write good music. Don\'t force people to write bad music in the name of being \"new and original\". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hear hear! My motto has always been \"Originality is overrated\". I\'d rather listen to 10 well-composed, well-sounding unoriginal scores than 10 original scores that are dreadful listening experiences.

Composer22 - I think this is the wrong forum for you to dismiss guys like Jeremy Soule, Bill Brown - and many of us here, who are as eager to compose that kind of music for films (and games) as they are. May I recommend rec.music.composition (I think that\'s the name) for your preaching.

[This message has been edited by Simon Ravn (edited 03-29-2002).]

Thomas_J

03-29-2002, 05:19 AM

I don\'t think I\'ve ever seen such arrogance. I think you would be foolish to post any music you\'ve composed after this http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Anyway, good luck in your world, whichever planet you live on.

Thomas

A_Sapp

03-29-2002, 05:53 AM

Amen.

composer22

03-29-2002, 09:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Robert Kral:
Z6

I relate to your comments above. At University I HAD to write in a certain style. When I\'d write in my own style I was ridiculed for sounding a bit like \"film music, and that\'s NOT what we\'re on about here\" by the head of the composing department!

My rule of thumb at that university in order to make the grades was whenever something sounded pleasant or tonal, change it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats a pretty sad story. I\'m crying. Yes, those bastards didn\'t know what they were talking about. And, yes, I also heard a bunch of crapola, self serving noise in college. But, didn\'t stop me from going against the grain and utilizing the library, or writing whatever the hell I wanted to do - despite the grades. And despite my pull to be tonal or whatever, I took risks everywhere whether I liked it or not. I became a better composer by teaching myself and experimenting and expeirencing everything. As for film music...I personally have heard every style in the world in films, so I don\'t understand what you are talking about. What I don\'t hear enough of in film is the intelligence you do get from concert music. But guess what...thats a GOOD thing. It would distract too much from the movie and the girl next to me. Plus I would be spending a year on each cue...when I need to write 3 minutes of music a day.

What am I advocating?

Write your film music for film needs, but take a risk somewhere and whenever you can. You\'ll grow and grow the film. ANd get new and more interesting gigs.

What do I mean by that?

Oh whats that Hermann volcano scene from journey to the Center of the Earth with all those organs?

Or Chris Youngs The Vagrant?? was it?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jamieh:
I also had the same experience in college (about a decade ago). The basic advice from those studying composition was \"don\'t bother--if you are any good they will make sure they ruin you before you get out.\"

New ideas can be fantastic. But writing music explicitly for the sake of being \"new\" is not the way to go about it. Write good music. Don\'t force people to write bad music in the name of being \"new and original\". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

More sad stories. I also hate universities, but managed to get alot out of the experience anyway. - which I believe some profs just should not be teaching. Guess what. Doesnt matter where you go, survival artists are everywhere.

We\'re talking new and original in the sense of interpretating it in your own way - not in the sense of any rules which is exactly what happens if you write some schlocky pseudo-french BS BTW. We\'re talking about making your own rules and taking risks.

What do I mean? Here\'s a challenge:

Homework assignment: Put aside your french schlock. Please write a love theme with a Banjo, a cello and a chinese gong. (its for a film about a southern girl that goes to mainland china and falls in love with the last emporer). You have 30 minutes for this cue.

composer22

03-29-2002, 10:13 AM

Extra Credit:

The director hears a mockup and thinks the cello is too lyrical and sentimental for the character. Maybe he had a bad experience with cellos...who knows? After some pleading about the theme, he still insists the cello is replaced. The character is not that romantic and what is missing is a sensibility in how she sees the world. \"Whatever,\" you say to yourself.

He suggests a bassoon or a timpani. You later learn that his mother was a one legged bassoonist for the L.A. symphony. She studied jazz bassoon at the Paris Conservatory after the civil war in Algeria.

Assigment: rewrite the cue this time substituting the cello for any non-lyrical pitched instrument - the more unusual the better.

03-29-2002, 10:22 AM

Pat. There is going to be some finger-pointing when this guy goes off a ledge.

Robert Kral

03-29-2002, 10:33 AM

composer22:

Your response reminds me of another University story. You see form time to time I did just that, wrote what I bloody well pleased or at least let ME influence \"my\" music that would be graded.

An example is when Boulez came to our town and we put on an original composition concert for him. Of course everyone went absolutely atonal. My piece was toward the end of the show and was really quite tonal and very pleasant sounding compared to the other stuff. When my flute and piano started with these dreamy, pleasent sounds, I kid you not Boulez let out this enormous, relaxed \"aaaaaagh!\" like this huge sigh of relief that could be heard across the entire concert hall!!

One victory to me against the establishment.

Micheal Chase

03-29-2002, 10:38 AM

I half-way agree with your arguement Comp22, partly becuase I get tired from hearing and being asked to compose the usual blaring run-of-the-mill sub-Strauss ripoffs that are popular at the moment. but you do tend to sound like my musically ****e old composition prof at the RAM whith your thankyou\'s to the textbook list of Berg etc.

Speak with your music my friend and let us hear some examples. PLEASE!!

Simon Ravn

03-29-2002, 10:40 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by composer22:
What am I advocating?

Write your film music for film needs, but take a risk somewhere and whenever you can. You\'ll grow and grow the film. ANd get new and more interesting gigs.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know what? That might work if you\'re a HIGHLY trusted composer. But if the director doesn\'t have a lot of experience, or if the game developer wants to play safe, they\'ll say something like \'Try listening to this. Something like that\'. And if you try to be original you will often have to change your stuff to what the director feels will work 100% - without any risks at all. I don\'t like that either, but that\'s how it is. Sometimes you can have some ideas that you feel certain will work, but you just can\'t convince the bosses. So I don\'t think taking risks will give you more gigs. It\'ll give you none. Become established or find a partner that really trusts you, THEN you can take risks. Risks might be the wrong term. But try adding your own ideas and touches at least.

03-29-2002, 12:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by composer22:

The greatest of greatest composers did it by having the balls to do the impossible and against all odds
....I take your insights and digest them like barbecue pork ribs, spitting out incredible works of art.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I like a good tune, so let\'s hear it?

The composers you cite did have something in common: Their music was heard.

Spit a couple of those \'incredible works of art\' in this direction. No point in locking up all that genius in the bedroom drawer.

Well? Go girl. You show us.

If those digested pork ribs are even a tenth of what you claim, then we are in for a treat.

Micheal Chase

03-29-2002, 02:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PatS:
composer22:

BTW, you should have chosen 4-Z15 as your logon id (there\'s that \"should\" again). I could be 4-Z29, and then we could hang out in an early Berg song. At least I know you won\'t use 4-28. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif (For the rest of you, 4-28 is the pitch-class set-class for the diminished-seventh-chord, which happens to an octatonic tetrachord and the \"complement\" to 8-28, the pitch-class set-class for the octatonic collection). Z6: Sorry, man, but you have to be a hexachord, not a bad one, though. If any of you are curious, check out the following site, one of many:

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 03-29-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Pat, sometimes too much analysis spoils the broth!!

apessino

03-29-2002, 02:44 PM

Music by \"composer22\" at:
http://www.pyxxel.com/ (\"http://www.pyxxel.com/\")

It was in his profile until yesterday, and then he removed the link.. I wonder why. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

A-

PatS

03-29-2002, 03:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Micheal Chase:

Hi Pat, sometimes too much analysis spoils the broth!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tell me about it! That\'s why I opted not to find a teaching gig in the midwest or anywhere else, for that matter, when my time was up at UCSB (5 years). But I was ready to leave the field after 3 years of correcting and grading harmony, counterpoint, and analysis assignments. I had absolutely no time for composing or research, and I had lost all interest in what was current then. I do miss many of the students and colleagues, though not some of my colleagues in the Theory Division, which hired me. Earning 3 times what UCSB paid me does make up for all of that. Plus my wife and I get to raise our family in Santa Barbara. And that puts a smile on my face! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Pat
P.S. Back to tweaking WebEx on a Sun Ultra5 running Solaris 8.

Micheal Chase

03-29-2002, 04:16 PM

LOL Pat!

I\'ve just visited Composer 22\'s website. Just what I thought.....a real groundbreaker. Keep those pro demos up Composer 22. And for those of you who\'ve seen the film AMADEUS, what can one say but, Salieri!.........

composer22

03-29-2002, 05:50 PM

HAHHAHA!! I love you guys! You spoiled all my delicious fun!!!

<[=)

PatS

03-29-2002, 11:12 PM

composer22:

I took several of Allen Forte\'s seminars, including one in which I referred to the \"Bransle Gay\" movement of Agon as an \"Octatonic Salad with Diatonic Dressing\" (I even pointed out a \"quotation\" from Petrushka: the little G#-F# motive shortly after the Petrushka chord). Forte loved that title and my analysis, but he became less impressed with me as I drifted away from the Sets and Schenker crowd and into the Music Perception group. Still, I held my own during the qualifying exams, in which Forte asked me to identify the pitch-class set-classes for several pitch collections of his choosing (what David Lewin called \"schmoos,\" if I recall correctly). Pieter van den Toorn was riot and really put me at ease, particularly when he couldn\'t keep up with my response and then withdrew his question (\"Umm, never mind!\"). Janet Schmalfeldt, also on the exam committee, was pleasant and quite thoughtful at times, but her allegiance to Schenker ultimately cast her as a limited thinker. Needless to say, I didn\'t like her classes.

Wow! In looking up Forte I came across his web site. Allen Forte has a web site! What do you know? Actually, it shouldn\'t surprise me: he was pretty big into programming with snobal 4+ on those \"speedy\" 80286 IBMs, and he loved to crank out scores and graphs with DARMS code.

So, do you compose regularly with pitch-class sets? I like some of Morris\' music; he\'s produced some wonderful sonorities, particularly with hexachords. Not for the faint of heart, to be sure.

BTW, you should have chosen 4-Z15 as your logon id (there\'s that \"should\" again). I could be 4-Z29, and then we could hang out in an early Berg song. At least I know you won\'t use 4-28. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif (For the rest of you, 4-28 is the pitch-class set-class for the diminished-seventh-chord, which happens to an octatonic tetrachord and the \"complement\" to 8-28, the pitch-class set-class for the octatonic collection). Z6: Sorry, man, but you have to be a hexachord, not a bad one, though. If any of you are curious, check out the following site, one of many: http://www.azstarnet.com/~solo/pcsets.htm (\"http://www.azstarnet.com/~solo/pcsets.htm\").

Cheers,

Pat

P.S. Z6: Per your earlier post (which I overlooked), can you tell I was one of those kids who used to jam a stick in a hornet\'s nest and then run for the hills?

P.S.S. Great story, Robert! What a compliment! Boulez is very fussy about music and has quite an ear. Or so I\'ve heard! (ta-da-dum)

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 03-29-2002).]

PatS

03-29-2002, 11:55 PM

composer22:

Your posts are killing me. Really funny stuff! But please let us hear your music for concert and film. You\'ve sold me. I\'m bangin\' on the door. Now let me in. Uncle Mort said it was OK (he\'s been dead for almost 15 years, but he still speaks to me, too). Please? I promise not to bore you anymore with my silly grad school stories. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Pat

P.S. Did you study composition at SUNY Buffalo?

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 03-29-2002).]

PatS

03-30-2002, 10:11 AM

composer22:

I noticed in this morning\'s LA Times that the LA Phil just performed Harbison\'s \"The Most Often Used Chords\" along with Schwantner\'s Percussion Concerto. Any plans to hear your composition teacher\'s work? (I think you\'re in the LA area, even though your web site provides a San Jose address.) The program is repeated tonight. Miguel Harth-Bedoya is conducting.

Pat

P.S. I still hear the dominant 7ths in Tristan as dominant 7ths. The tonics merely turned tail and ran back to Brahms, but then realized they had a fighting chance with Schubert and Beethoven (late quartets notwithstanding). They considered fleeing directly to Mozart, but his \"Dissonance\" quartet scared the crap out of them.

lifeforce

03-30-2002, 01:24 PM

Great thread! And to think I just opened it to see what was new in Brass and WW sounds for GS.

I like philosopher Ken Wilber\'s way of organizing aesthetic debates like this with the concept of \"holons\" first introduced by Arthur Koestler as a way of organizing virtually everything. (He wrote this up beautifully in an Art journal about ten years ago and I cant find it today - great piece for artists and musicians.)

Wilber would say Composer22 is trying to create a holon - a realm - that he wishes to function in, aesthetically, and apparently to defend. Nooo problem until you start declaring it THE holon. The only whole holon is God\'s holon and we all get to find out a WHOLE lot more about that somewhere after this life.

Meanwhile - we\'re all just here experimenting right? Within music I have my realms and you have yours.

I do think your holon has a potentially fatal flaw, Composer22, which leaves it wide open to such effective criticism. Using linear time to organize and isolate your holon is usually a pretty shaky route. Look at the 12 tone music that Bach composed in the 1700\'s! (Thinking here of the B minor fugue at the end of Well Tempered Clavier I which Schoenberg called \"the first 12 tone composition in Western music history\")

So lets get real...there are people composing crap and a few people composing music that is way wayyyy beyond the holons that most of the rest of us are working to understand most of the time, with some importance to the time frame, but not a primary importance - or Bach could not have written that work in the 1740s. (If only I had HALF of Bach\'s grasp of harmony - perhaps to apply to a completely different aspect of music now.)

I also think we have a rare way to better objectify what we are ALL doing or trying to do, harmonically, right now (with almost no \"pre-judgements\" involved) with the availabilty of W.A. Mathieu\'s extraordinary book, \"Harmonic Experience\". Now, I believe, we can see CONNECTIONS in what we are each doing as composers, thanks to Mathieu, in very, very simple organic terms (the prime number ratios of the overtone series) and then go back to the particular way we have of working, aesthetically, with a sort of common table of elements that we are all working from. My own conclusion, from \"Harmonic Experience\", is that most 20th C dissonant music is a great big ugly useless and intellectually over-wrought dysfunctional holon. (Just my opinion mind you - with EXTRAORDINARY exceptions like Bartok and Shostakovich.) Mathieu\'s book has moved me back toward polyphonic, modal music like no other - with the clear implication that we have many realms yet to explore here that are beautifully consonant, and wisely dissonant, in subtle ways that have a basis in science as well as creativity that even we musicians can understand. Our major (Ionian) and minor (Aeolian) modes are just a small part of the harmonic palette that have been selectively used as if these two modes constituted all of music for far too many years in the West. Naturally we\'ve wanted to break free from these confines - and we have for over a hundred years now. Now I think Mathieu gives us the real tools for organizing this \"rebellion\" and our individual experiments with a common understanding that is connected to nature in a deep way.

lifeforce

03-30-2002, 01:36 PM

PatS - Thanks for the alain danielou link. NICE. I didn\'t know this website. Mathieu teaches with an emphasis on the spiritual and organic resonance of the low prime number ratios as well - from a Sufi perspective.

composer22

03-30-2002, 02:27 PM

Nice Life force:

That Mathieu\'s harmonic series Holon becomes full of flaws when you recognize that instrumentation blows those relationships out of the water just as much as other organizing methodologies. Throw in rhythim dynamics and any other non-linear or linears parameters.

As for dissonance and the 20th century, I never heard a work that was dissonant, only music I thought was interesting or uninteresting.

Common factors for all our Halons? Hmmm...I\'ll try and remember that when I record my dog pissing on a tree as a new sample for my new gigarig.

A_Sapp

03-30-2002, 07:53 PM

Hey Composer, nice tunes you got there. Warfilm is a good one. Did you get that performed?

composer22

03-30-2002, 08:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by A_Sapp:
Hey Composer, nice tunes you got there. Warfilm is a good one. Did you get that performed?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Warfilm and comedy were recorded at soundstage M @ paramont. Warfilm is a bit too ala funerabelle/baroque for me, but thats what the film demand. If I had my way it would have been more lyric modern with same instrumentation.

composer22

03-30-2002, 11:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PatS:
[B]composer22:

I noticed in this morning\'s LA Times that the LA Phil just performed Harbison\'s \"The Most Often Used Chords\" along with Schwantner\'s Percussion Concerto. Any plans to hear your composition teacher\'s work? (I think you\'re in the LA area, even though your web site provides a San Jose address.) The program is repeated tonight. Miguel Harth-Bedoya is conducting.

Pat

B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I\'ve listened and studied JS\'s percussion concerto about 100 times. It\'s ok. If you want to listen to something that I like of his, try A SUDDEN RAINBOW. You may have a problem getting a recording, but the score is in USC library. You may also want to look at SPARROWS too. Anything you pick up of his, including the concerto, take a look at it from a set theory POV. It may sound tonal, but its highly derived.

I have more to say about the whole constructionists stuff you were discussing earlier. Morris\' book is worth reading. So is Hanson\'s. I am trying to find Levin\'s book. But all in all, you should take away and use it in your own way. Alot of what the theory talks about is there to cover their academic asses. They have to. The practical tool things I got out of it was a sense of really manipulating small materials into larger features - how to build designs using a combination of vectors, transpositional combination and interval cycles. The last is key. But whatever you read or learn, you need to be able to throw it all away at an impulse, if your compositional zen insticnt tells you to do it. IMHO And thats where most of us fail.

I had a conversatino with Unckle Milty at couple of years ago. He was impressed with a piece I wrote and the conversation went on and I brought up the point that I didn\'t think this stuff was hearable etc, because I didn\'t think people psychologically hear perfectly and alighned. That alot of our ability to recognize things is abstract, such as memory...we fill in the blanks that are missing...so let\'s leave some blankness in our music, since the details aren\'t really necessary...contour may be enough for people to understand a work motivically. His response was that he generally agreed, yeah there has been alot of psychological research in the last 20 years that points to this being true.

Debussy and Monet live on

As for my lousy demos, I\'d point you to a few spots:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> Arch Dance: second mvt fusion is derived from a ROW.
<LI> Arch Dance: third mvt right after the the tonal opening there is a false whacky development section - it\'s all set derived.
<LI> Sakonnet Light: 3rd mov - this is all set derived. I used a computer to build the design algo-rythmically. Doesn\'t sound like atonality does it?
[/list]

You may also want to hear the comedy cue, as well as madison. I keep my concert/serious stuff off the page. The cue is a bit dissapointing on its own but works extremely well with the cue. Same with Thanatos.

Sorry about the state of demos. Some I could not get decent recordings from the chamber groups, or they wanted to hold on to them. And saving my $$$ for this business last few years - now shelling out a ton of it at the moment to get the studio set up - hence my original question.

New demos coming. ONly msuic that made me money are on teh site.

On my way to post office to pick my MalmJo piano. Total piano arrived yesterday and I am loving the clusters!

Beethoven: Opus 131 is still my favorite...

Cheers

Phattlippz

03-31-2002, 12:54 AM

Wow--I just read this thread from top to bottom. There are some pretty wild opinions flying around here!

I doubt Jeremy Soule cares one whit whether or not his music reflects our times, or that he\'s using musical devices that have been around awhile. That\'s what makes these devices work! Since when does film music (game music, actually) have to be a personal artistic statement, reflecting our times? As nearly as I can tell, a commercial composer has a responsibility to dramatically support the production with music--there\'s nothing in the job description that says you have to further the cause of contemporary concert music.

The reality is that there are plenty of talented, successful composers that probably couldn\'t tell you anything about the history of music, or current trends in music theory, but are very capable of putting together notes and sounds in an effective, dramatic way. I\'ve noticed that this reality tends to piss off snobby overly-educated conservatory composers. Perhaps they haven\'t come to terms with the idea that their expensive education doesn\'t amount to much outside of academia. As Clare Fischer once told me, \"the only thing a degree in music will give you is the ability to talk intelligently with others who have a degree in music.\"

composer22

03-31-2002, 02:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> As Clare Fischer once told me, \"the only thing a degree in music will give you is the ability to talk intelligently with others who have a degree in music.\"[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

oooh, I disaggeeeeeeee so bad it hurts.

Let me rephase it to what I believe:

\"The only thing a degree in music will give you is the ability to talk intelligently with yourself and your own music. The rest, you have no control over anyway...\"

No one doubts the necessity for JS having to conform to such and such demands for games. We all do it. What\'s really irky is he\'s a johnny one note with alot of $$$.

Nothing personal.

Phattlippz

03-31-2002, 10:08 AM

Note that Clare didn\'t say \"musical education\", but \"degree in music\".

composer22

03-31-2002, 10:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Phattlippz:
Note that Clare didn\'t say \"musical education\", but \"degree in music\".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, I definately agree with that, but could expand to:

Degree in ____(fill in the blank ___ .

PatS

04-03-2002, 12:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by composer22:
I\'ve listened and studied JS\'s percussion concerto about 100 times. It\'s ok. If you want to listen to something that I like of his, try A SUDDEN RAINBOW. You may have a problem getting a recording, but the score is in USC library. You may also want to look at SPARROWS too. Anything you pick up of his, including the concerto, take a look at it from a set theory POV. It may sound tonal, but its highly derived.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the pointer to \"Sudden Rainbow;\" I haven\'t heard it yet. I first encountered \"Sparrows\" back in \'84 or \'85, when Schwantner paid us a visit. Our New Music ensemble performed it along with his \"Two Poems of Agueda Pizarro.\" \"Sparrows\" is absolutely gorgeous and a pleasant diversion from all the talk about \"Aftertones of Infinity.\" Speaking of Aftertones, I remember a grad student using goblets in one of her orchestral works shortly after her one-on-one session with Schwantner. What\'s the saying? \"Nothing becomes so old so fast as a new sound.\" (I wish I could remember who said that.)

BTW, your \"Comedy\" piece is marvelous and quite playful (no, the aforementioned quote wasn\'t a segue to this paragraph). I haven\'t had any time to listen to your other demos, but I figured I\'d start with that one since someone recommended it.

Looking forward to hearing more of your music. I wish you much success in your business.

Cheers,

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 04-03-2002).]

composer22

04-03-2002, 03:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PatS:
...I first encountered \"Sparrows\" back in \'84 or \'85, when Schwantner paid us a visit. Our New Music ensemble performed it ...is absolutely gorgeous and a pleasant diversion from all the talk about \"Aftertones of Infinity.\"

...I remember a grad student using goblets in one of her orchestral works...What\'s the saying? \"Nothing becomes so old so fast as a new sound.\"

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 04-03-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SPARROWS has this one section where the piano is playing these interval 5 cycle derivations...its absolutely amaisingly structured and beautiful sounding. It\'s quoted alot in contemp books and disserts. Worth a quick look...explains alot.

Goblets - made me laugh. You\'re right. My new motto is avoid anything with water. Goblets, Gongs etc. I tried to break my old rule by using goblets filled with alcohol. Using alcohol will keep the goblets in tune longer. Only trouble was the dang viola section kept getting sh*tfaced in rehearsals, so we put a stop to that right away. There\'s nothing like respect.

Thanks for taking the time to listen to some of the links. Embarassing. Bit like home movies.

Would pay respects by listening to some of your stuff? You have a site?

WebEx on a Sun Ultra5 running on Solaris 8 isn\'t your only heart...don\'t be shy.

Cheers

P.S. Wanna start a riot?

JEREMY SOULE vs. BRIAN FERNEYHOUGH

=)

composer22

04-03-2002, 03:38 PM

Should add this note to the forum as follow up:

I ended up purchasing the following samples:

Dan Dean Solo WW - not bad. Most of the patches are variations using other control methods outside of a mod wheel, and single and double combinations. I found I could use use about 10 patches per instrument - 5 for large memory; 5 for low memory situations.

Dan Dean Solo Brass - alittle bright from what I\'ve played so far. I need to experiment some more, but like above, other control methods suchs as velocity and keyswitching patches. I need only Mod wheel.

Quantum Leap Brass - interesting. Still reviewing.

Also getting in the mail today and tomorrow:

Dan Dean Solo Strings
Ultimate Timp
Ultimate Vibes and Marimba

will let you know

Cheers

PatS

04-03-2002, 03:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by composer22:

Would pay respects by listening to some of your stuff? You have a site?

WebEx on a Sun Ultra5 running on Solaris 8 isn\'t your only heart...don\'t be shy.

Cheers

P.S. Wanna start a riot?

JEREMY SOULE vs. BRIAN FERNEYHOUGH

=)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I\'m a family man, which means I have very little time in the evening to do anything but try to stay awake until the news (forget about the weekends: \"Papa\'s home! Let\'s rollerblade!\"). Alas, I don\'t have anything in the sequencer that I feel is ready for prime time, though I am chipping away at a couple of pieces at the moment (granted, at a glacial pace). I figure in a short while the kids will lose interest in me and, thus, allow me to sit at the keyboard and computer for more than 5 minutes. My 8-year-old daughter already prefers to bolt to her friend\'s house whenever she\'s home, so it won\'t be long before my boys (5 and 1.33) do the same. Until then, my \"free\" time is completely theirs (said the snarly dad). http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

BTW, where is Ferneyhough these days? I last heard he was at UC San Diego, but he\'s now listed as a \"former\" member of the faculty.

Pat