Just an honest and open opinion. VOTA

[Francis Belardino]

Just an honest and open opinion.

There is much talk and even more defending of this release as of late.
Before I give my given Right of an opinion... I would like to say that I do appreciate the changes that have been made to this library. I find the programming to be first rate.

I want to speak truthfully without biting the tongue and I, more importantly, wish to remind the reader that this is merely one users opinion. In addition, I feel it necessary to state that I have 12 Choir concert recordings attached to my resume as a recording/mastering engineer. Please do not take this as bragging. I merely want to state that I do have experience in the field. Yes, it is true that I have not yet been involved in a sampling project. Yes, I do understand the difference between the two.

On to the matter at hand. I have mixed feelings about this product that may be driven by the need to rectify the cost.

My first complaint http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/frown.gif

Noise.
There is still a strange, modem like tone that had only appeared at low C & D. This noise has seemed to surface, or dare I say leap out on other notes since the updates. I fully understand the noise game. I fully understand and welcome some noise in my samples. This noise is unmusical and does not add to any form of realism.

Vibrato:
The vibrato on the vowel samples, in the high register, is almost comical in nature. I have never heard a chamber setting of female vocalist make this tone.
The pure .wav files are not chromatic in this range or at the extreme low end of the scale. They are stretched a whole step. This is the information that the editor in GSEDIT is showing. If I am wrong...then please allow me to apologize.

Words:
Great concept but the time spent on programing is not available for the work I do in Audio Post. I would much rather use SOV and it\'s melismatic phrases.

Overall:
I find it very hard to use this release in a solo sense. By this, I mean...
If I blend and almost hide this Choir in a mix...I hear what VOTA can do.
I find the overall character to have a cold and sterile tone. I can hear it\'s bigness. There is no question there. But, that is very limiting when considering the cost.

I apologize if anything said here would influence sales in the wrong direction. I would doubt this. There are many here who hold this product very dear to them and whom have made great music with it. God speed! I apologize if anything said here is taking personally. I apologize if anything said here starts the, \"Great Flame War of 2002.\" Again, this is simply my honest and open opinion. Please remember I have that right...or, at least $459.99 worth http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Peace.

------------------
Francis Belardino
fbelardino@score4post.com (\"fbelardino@score4post.com\")

Composer/Sound Designer
www.score4post.com (\"http://www.score4post.com\")

[Mark_Knecht]

Francis,
Thanks for your opinion. I think all of us here value it.

Cheers,
Mark

[KingIdiot]

Hey Francis, I think the soudn you\'re reffering too is what soudns like a 50-60hz cycle hum (maybe from a screen on the recording gear, or a some sort of electronic equip)

Lower range stuff at quiet volumes tend to do this. Try pulling that or introducing a hum canceler. I haven\'t tried but it should help. Problem is cutting this stuff out cuts the low end frequency response. You may be able to get around it with cutting then doing some sort of \"bass enhancement\" with either a plug in that *creates* sub harmonics (not boosting existing ones...you\'ll jsut reintroduce the noise), or layering a pad or transposed sample with highs cut. At that low a range in the frequency spectrum formants are pretty indistinguishable/negledgible IMO.


EDIT
actually thinking about the actual noise. its probably not going to help with the hum canceler. I\'ll check it out

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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 03-21-2002).]

[KingIdiot]

Francis,

Try a De-esser shelving above 12k.

I find that this and hyperprism harmonic exciter help it out alot



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Really...I am an Idiot

[Nick Phoenix]

I appreciate the opinion and there soesn\'t need to be a flame war. Maybe my problem is that I listen to too many Hollywood soundtracks. Because I can emulate exactly the choir sound in the last few John williams soundtracks as well as hundreds of other soundtracks. thats with no eq and reverb. I don\'t mean kind of similar, but exactly in many cases. If I could get the orchestra to sound as good, I\'d be happy.

BAFFLED.

[KingIdiot]

I agree with ya Nick,

I\'m pretty surprised at the sound of VotA out of the box. As much as I hate Release triggers, they do have alot of character in VotA and they work well....nevermind Poly issues http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

You have to understand tho that some people have different tastes. I\'m sure you do, but jsut keep it in mind. Also keep in mind that with customers price is going to play a big factor in waht they think of the library. SOV has much more variation than VotA, you have to admit that http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Still I like the sound of VotA and when I finally figure out how to write a big action score I know I\'m gonna be happy http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif


Francis,

I\'ve figured out a way of removing the noise in the low pitch shifted Demons, and probably will be able to do the same with the Men\'s choir.

The Plus is I\'ve figured out a way to share this all with you guys with minimal Sample editing. If you have any type of sound editor or multitrack playback it should be fine. However it will take some time to get it to sound correct.

About vibrato. I can discuss with you via Email some techniques I\'ve used to get more consistant sustains in the high registers. It jsut gets difficult to explain here. Plus it involves some more editing than most people want to deal with.... tho IMO its not much and its a one time deal.

libraries aren\'t perfect for everyone out of the box, the noise is debatable. Removing it can involve changing the character of the sound and compromising the quality of the sample, which is why Nick did the best he could I\'m sure.

Still, maybe there are some tricks he didn\'t try...or maybe my convuluted way of thinking got some other ideas out that *I* think may work. .... I\'ll share soon....if it wont violite any liscence agreements and cause problems with watermarks... Emailing Nick about it http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 03-22-2002).]

[Francis Belardino]

King. Let me get back to you on all of this. I am at the studio now (session starts in 5 4 3 2 1) http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Nick,

I would also like to follow up.


Thank you guys... for being gentlemen about all of this.

[Francis Belardino]

\"BAFFLED\" = \"There are many here who hold this product very dear to them and whom have made great music with it. God speed!\"


\"Try pulling that or introducing a hum canceller\" and \"About vibrato. I can discuss with you via Email some techniques I\'ve used to get more consistent sustains in the high registers.\"

When we deliver a sound design master to our clients we don\'t ask them to fix things. That\'s not their job. PS. King, your GOS short bows rock http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

In short. I am sorry to not be happy with this release. I don\'t find it to be unusable but it is not my first choice.

Nick, keep up the good work. You have many happy clients... it\'s all good. I can deal with the loss of money. It\'s all a gamble. I am sure that the next user will ask, this is an awesome library...hummm, why so cheap?\"

Peace

[Francis Belardino]

I want to be completely fair in all of this as well. I don\'t want to imply that Nick is
not a great developer. I just think VOTA is not what I expected.

I want to also dig a little deeper ... many here think VOTA is what we need ... let me spend even more time with it.

Let me use Kings suggestions...
I know how many feel (King) http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif about the out of the box thing... I will try again.

Peace.

[Nick Phoenix]

Francis,
You don\'t need to apologise or dig deeper. Thanks for the input. What \"WE\" need is of little importance to you.

[KingIdiot]

Hey Nick,

if you get a chance check your Email http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[Francis Belardino]

\"What \"WE\" need is of little importance to you.\"

You lost me

[Nick Phoenix]

Francis,
You said something like \"many think this is what we need.\" What I was saying is that, who cares? What you want is most important to you. You don\'t owe me a second look.

[KingIdiot]

>>>When we deliver a sound design master to our clients we don\'t ask them to fix things. That\'s not their job<<<<

Come on man, Sound libraries and doign specific work for clients are completely different things. Stuff you do for a client is custom to their requirements. Libraries start from the developers requirements/goal, and then are used by a variety of customers with differnt tastes and ears.

Its like Roland Keyboards, noise that really pops up in the decay of sounds. You have to find ways around it.

Or like not EQing your strings, bits of sound design need to be done to be happy with a library. I consider noise reduction or sample editing the same as EQ.

I used to complain about sample libraries alot, but now I realize its up to me to focus on the good points and to shy of hiring real players.

ALL sample libraries can be used to get great results and ALL of them need fixes...different ones according to different people.

Again like I\'ve said before lets get together and help each other make these better rather than just \"settling\" and being frustrated


I\'m not arguing with you abot your points, but I\'d like to help...and think its something users should get used to, its part of broadening our sound spectrum. I firmly belive that Developers are not God\'s http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif


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Really...I am an Idiot

[Francis Belardino]

No, they are not Gods. I agree.

But, they are sound designers. They know a bad file when they hear one. I, as I said before, want some noise in my samples but not that type of noise. I could not release something knowing it was there. I would demand a retake or something.

How many files did Gary and Tom toss? My point exactly.

The noise was not an illegitimate complaint.
I appreciate your ideals about the vibrato but, I don\'t want to spend $$$ to hide or fix.

Last, I know you are not arguing with me and more importantly...I know you are trying to help. That is what, King does people http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

And again, I say, your short bows rock!!

PS. You failed to mention that I feel bad about my opinion http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Tom Hopkins]

\". . . I firmly belive that Developers are not God\'s\"

King: Did you have to post that? If my wife reads that, this really sweet setup of mine is finished! \"FINISHED, I TELL YOU,\" (in a big, imposing voice that seems to come from everywhere).

Tom

[Francis Belardino]

LOL!!

[Mark UK]

Maybe I am wrong but I think Francis is referring to playability rather than quality of the library\'s samples.

I am a musician not a technician. I don\'t have the time, desire, or technical knowledge to play around to a large extent with the libraries I buy. What we as the end user want is the best \"out of the box\" experience possible - meaning less time spent on tweaking and overcoming why the library doesn\'t do what we want it to do and instead devote more time to playing with these libraries and doing the thing we bought these libraries for...

From what I have heard, VOTA sounds great although difficult to use. Maybe libraries should also be judged on \"out-of-the box playability\" so that those of us who are less technically geared might be think twice about buying them, and saving the negative comments that some developers receive not as a result of the quality of the samples, but more the playability....


Maybe I miss the point of why everyone is buying these libraries, but this is my opinion....

Please don\'t shout at me! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Mark UK (edited 03-23-2002).]

[Francis Belardino]

\"I am a musician not a technician. I don\'t have the time, desire, or technical knowledge to play around to a large extent with the libraries I buy. What we as the end user want is the best \"out of the box\" experience possible - meaning less time spent on tweaking and overcoming why the library doesn\'t do what we want it to do and instead devote more time to playing with these libraries and doing the thing we bought these libraries for...\"

I think that is a very valid point...I do not think that it solely applies to, Nick Phoenix or Quantum Leap products. I know that was not your intent. It goes without saying that he is a monster composer... so I am inclined to believe that PLAYABILITY is big on his list.

My complaints are revolved around items that should have been dealt with by the maker, not the user. I have no problem with adjusting attacks and other simple tricks to make a patch more suited to my taste or writing style. There is not enough gigabytes in the world to put \"everyone\'s\" taste into a sampling project. That is obvious.

Lastly, I do feel better that I gave my opinion but I truly hope that everyone understand that it is merely an opinion. I will go on record and say...

Take guys like, Simon Raven ... they spend more time composing then they do complaining ... perhaps, there is a reason for this...

I\'m my own critic http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Nick, again ... thank you for the opportunity to express my feelings and
I wish you the best in all you do.

[KingIdiot]

Yopu know,

The funny thing is, I find Version 2 of VotA VERY playable. I\'m actually quite amazed at how easy it is to build a great sounding piece with the Keyswitch vowels. My only \"real\" gripe is that there isn\'t a \"Expressive\" version of the Key switch vowels, but Im fixing that on my own and will share the ART file.

Nick is a big fan of the \"out of the box\" experience. I think I\'m more of a fan of flexibility. I can then set up patches or techniques, or chains of effects, that will get me the sound I want. Just so long as I\'m not limited and people share sounds and techniques.

VotA is mostly not an \"intimate\" library, the angels can be and work well, but all around its not going to give you the same sound as SoV. VotA is more \"hollywood\" sounding to me.

That being said, I think the new version of VotA is much more playable than SoV ever was or will be.

Building words will still be an undertaking, but its made much easier than it was in version one, and with a bit of practice can get easier with time. Also maybe some customizing of patches as you find your \"needs\". Also ;ayering a voice or two over the top is ALWAYS going to help make a sampled choir sound more realisitc. And thats much cheaper than getting a real choir http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Nick\'s right, if the sound isn\'t what you\'re looking foor then dont worry about it, Its jsut that...the library is different than what you want in \"character\".... but make sure its the sound and not \"issues\" that turn you off..

Nick\'s somewhat of a \"purist\" a believe which is why he didn\'t use any auto tuning or noise reduction. If you listen to the actual sample that has \"noise\" its not really audible in the sample since its in the utmost range of human hearing, BUT if you transpose that down it becomes more audible because the frequency is shifted. This is a simple fix, just shelve EQ at 15k or use a peak and pull it (ther are better approaches but this is the easiest) and once you do that to the actual sample, ...boom fixed.

I just think that simple \"issues\" like this in no way can outway the useability and character of the library. Yes its expensive, and I agree in that I think it should be cheaper $399 perhaps (tho Miro is more expensive and about the same in terms of quantity of samples, and not the same cahracter). And that spending that kind of money should give you atleast the \"option\" of a sample with noise reduceed. But sometimes thats the case, libraries will come up short in areas.

GOS is the same, AO, US, Perc Adv, DDSB and SW. Upcoming libraries will be the same. Sometimes you just need to tweak a little.

About time tweaking guys. Thats one of the reasons I share. I try to give you actual settings that you can use, which cuts the \"tweaking\" time down to a quarter of what it actually is...atleast when I can. Maybe I\'ll try an acoustic Mirror impulse for noise reduction. on VotA.

I tried using a \"inverted/differece\" sample that you can mix with the original sample that worked great. But I\'m not sure what kind of legal issues it may cause.

Anyhow, I do go to the extreme realm in tweak town at times, thats for ultimate tweakers and people who want to have fun...and myself http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Other stuff is more in the realm of engineering. Its something that we all still need to do with all the different sample libraries. This is of course more than mixing and EQ.

Sample libraries will NEVER be the same as a fully mixed session, I would ratther approach them as \"players/instruments\" in a session that I\'m engineering.

The only time all of its gonna sound close to a fully mixed session is if you sample all the instruments in the same room witht he same mics ALL up, AND AFTER a full session so all the EQ and mixes are set up http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

and still wont sound righ tin the end http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif


and blah blah blah blah :P



------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[Nick Phoenix]

Sometimes I think it is hard to get a real and helpful view of sample libraries. This forum can be fantastic and also misleading. King Idiot is, in my opinion, a voice of competence and reason. Sure he\'s saying some good things about my library, but they are helpful, truthful things and not hype. Even the best reviewers, can\'t always give you that, because of politics and the way reviews generally work.

[KingIdiot]

I was talking with Tom today, and we were pretty baffled about how littel \"sharing\" of ART files is going on.

I jsut realized that one of the things I\'ve been complaining about in that realm is not having enough raw material to make ART files with. Sometimes libraries just dont have enough raw source material to make anything really cool...which is why I tend to do alot of post processing.

Anyhow. I\'ve got some ideas for VotA in which words could be created as \"instruments\" Or even basic \"phonetics\" as instruments. This is because of the new consonants and that there is a b unch of raw material.

GOS is the same way which is why I keep saying....\"hmmmm I think you can get that out of GOS\". http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif It usually takes a little bit of tweaking tho.

I know all of us have to compose constantly and mix and crazy deadlines. I jsut cant for the life of me understand why you cant run a batch on files over night when you\'re asleep, then replace samples in a gig.

If we all do this kidn of stuff we can share even more cool things like ART files that work with new effected files.

This is something that HAD to be done during the old hardware sampler days, and even with keyboards/synths (settings).

Its too much burden to put this type of stuff on the developer IMO. They do need to get the libraries out. and most things are learned only after YEARS of using a library a certain way. Only two months ago I came up with a GREAT idea for an art file within GOS, and slowly more and more new processing ideas in the sample realm.

I\'ve also got to point out. I\'ve heard some GREAT stuff from other composers using libraries that have been around for a while, and they sound GREAT. but its because they\'ve tweaked to their taste and how THEY will use the library/sounds. I listen to them all and hear different tweaks each time and know that ONE tweak wotn work for everyone, which is why I\'m better off with hacing the \"starting point\" be the library, then process to get the \"sound\"


and my soap box is now crushed.....

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Tokyo Joe]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
I was talking with Tom today, and we were pretty baffled about how littel \"sharing\" of ART files is going on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn\'t it because MOST people don\'t know how to make custum ART files? That, or they are too lazy?

It reminds me of the story of keyboard players returning their synths to the factory for a one year service and the engineer discoveries ALL the factory presets are still in the keyboard. IN other words most musicians want instant sounds and don\'t want to craft their own sounds that are unique to them. Why?

And what\'s all this about an \"out of the box\" experience with sample libraries? Do you guys expect VotA to \'sing\' for you with little or no work? That to me is unbelievable.

I\'ve heard people bash \'Extended Classical Choir\' and yet I\'ve had fantastic results with it. Of course it takes time AND talant. And that\'s something you can\'t buy off the shelf.

I\'m looking forward to getting VotA and seeing what I can achieve with it.

[Scott Speed]

I couldn\'t have said it any better...King is the most helpful person on the board, and this is only meant as an observation cause I repsect the the hell outta the guy...the main thing I notice after reading his posts is that he\'s *constantly* tweaking and eq-ing this and editing that over and over again to get these sample libraries sounding the way they should.
Now, we all go nuts when we hear his post-tweaked stuff, so there seems to be some general consensus on the kind of sound that is generally sought after with these libraries. The fact that he has to jump through hoops to get there in the first place seems to be the focus of this thread.
That aint fun...and most of us don\'t have the time, the patience and the technical savvy to do it. I think the developers definitely have to address the playability issue in as much (or more) depth as King does *before* releasing these libraries. Sure, people are still gonna tweak things to their own preferences...there\'s no way around that, but things like Beta releases ala Garritan Strings sure clear up a lot of the issues before the problems are released and laid off on the end user.

Regards,
Scott


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark UK:
snip
I am a musician not a technician. I don\'t have the time, desire, or technical knowledge to play around to a large extent with the libraries I buy. What we as the end user want is the best \"out of the box\" experience possible - meaning less time spent on tweaking and overcoming why the library doesn\'t do what we want it to do and instead devote more time to playing with these libraries and doing the thing we bought these libraries for...
snip

[Mark UK]

Yes, I agree with what has been said.

To clarify, I was referring to all sample libraries (not just VOTA as I do not even own this library). It seems to me that a lot of the threads about unhappy experiences come from those who do not have the technical knowledge or interest to spend time improving the \"playability\" of the samples. Take for example GOS, I spent quite a bit of time learning how to layer grand detaché with sustain in order to get a great sounding sustained sample. To me, the GOS grand detaché seems to be one of the best short bow attacks in the market place although is not hugely usable until you delve into technicality as the detaché samples alone are too short.

To King\'s point about art files, I agree that this would be the best way to help other users. I have to be honest and say I do not have the first clue how to make one! I assume it is not too difficult but I just haven\'t got around to doing it. (I am sure there are plenty of those reading this who are in the same position as me!). It is always great when developers update their libraries: Garritan strings, Dan Dean libraries, and now Nick for VOTA - I just wish there were more available, particularly from heavy end users as these are the guys who can REALLY help other end users to achieve good things.

Would it not be a good idea to set up an articulations section in the forum where people can provide links to hosts holding various articulation files? In this way, those in the know-how can teach those less technically capable to get more out of their library.

I think one of the reasons there has been a lot of negative posts on the forum board is down to frustration and a feeling of being \"home alone\". I definitely know that with the libraries I have purchased I have a fantastic resource at my disposal. I just now need to learn more technical stuff to get more out of them - a boring reality.

King has been incredibly helpful and is always ready to give advice. With more people willing to do this, we could find that these forums not only become great places to express views and knowledge, but also a fantastic source for \"updating\" our own great sample libraries.

Of course Demos are great, but without giving an insight into what has been done to achieve those sounds, they are simply another source of frustration (\"I want my samples to sound like that but they sound like sh*t\" type of frustration).

I have to say that I spend so much of my time playing around with sounds, trying to find the most realistic for use. Sadly I seem to get not too far and end up having hardly composed anything after a dedicated session. Quite frustrating yet the reality of my lack of techinical ability to better the attacks, decays etc of the libraries I have bought.

I think most of us would glady pay additionally on top of the library cost if all the work on tweaking that we currently have to do could be avoided.

Just an opinion from someone more interested in composing with these libraries than tweaking them .....

As for Tokyo Joe\'s comment:

........And what\'s all this about an \"out of the box\" experience with sample libraries? Do you guys expect VotA to \'sing\' for you with little or no work? That to me is unbelievable.....

I am NOT saying that I expect it to just play away, but I do expect to spend less time making the results sounds more realistic than I do at present. I AM NOT expecting to have an instrument at my disposal that jumps when I say jump, but I do expect (after having paid considerable amount of money) to have something that I can use ALMOST straight away rather than the feeling that \"boy, I have a lot of work to do with this library before I can use it\" type of feeling.

Is this really so unbelievable? I don\'t think so. I am not into all this for the tweaking and technical stuff, I want to PLAY and COMPOSE!


I think a lot of it comes down to expectations of the sounds we are striving for. As a classically trained musician playing in orchestras for over 15 years, I know exactly what sounds I am striving for but much of the time am not happy enough with them to satisfy MY OWN opinion that these sound realistic. Play some of the demos on this forum to a non-musically trained ear and they sound great.... However, I have heard some of these demos and find them incredibly unrealistic.

Maybe I am simply expecting too much. I do not mean to project bad feeling, just a note that not all library users want to spend their time tweaking with their samples to make them more useable.



[This message has been edited by Mark UK (edited 03-24-2002).]

[SOD213]

I think I posted a topic about having a website (like Worra\'s Place) that everyone could share .ART files on. If worse comes to worst, I\'ll set it up myself. It\'d be great if everyone would take part in it, so more owners of the libraries could take advantage of their purchases. I\'m thinking about setting up a webpage for some of the custom work I\'m doing anyway.

[Francis Belardino]

\"And what\'s all this about an \"out of the box\" experience with sample libraries? Do you guys expect VotA to \'sing\' for you with little or no work? That to me is unbelievable\"

This thread may go where it wants to go - drifting further and further from it\'s original post...that\'s fine but please do not include me or my comments to the above statement.

I don\'t know who you are referring to as, \"you guys\" ... but, please remember..., \"I want to speak truthfully without biting the tongue and I, more importantly, wish to remind the reader that this is merely one users opinion. In addition, I feel it necessary to state that I have 12 Choir concert recordings attached to my resume as a recording/mastering engineer. Please do not take this as bragging. I merely want to state that I do have experience in the field. Yes, it is true that I have not yet been involved in a sampling project. Yes, I do understand the difference between the two.\"

MY post is not about playability! In addition, one does not need to be a rocket scientist to create an art file...or a sampling library for that matter.

You\'re comment is twisting my original statements. I find it insulting that you think I want VOTA to sing for me.

Last, I agree with Mark! Enough with loving your developer ... it\'s time to demand better quality and care ... the same way they demand such a high price -- with no return if not satisfied.

[This message has been edited by Francis Belardino (edited 03-24-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Francis Belardino (edited 03-24-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Francis Belardino (edited 03-24-2002).]

[KingIdiot]

I jsut can\'t believe that coment about \"time to demand better\"

WE ARE GETTING BETTER.

I used to say this about QLB, and that was because it felt like an AKAI port to giga not really something that used Giga to its fullest. I still feel that way.

Comments like this are just not right IMO. Take Ultimate strings for example. I dont hear enough bitching about it anymore about its worth. 350-400 bucks list price. Way less programming and usability than VotA (even in its giga form), LOTS of bow noise. Still in the end its usable if you learn to \"use it\".

VotA and GOS are light years beyond whats been available in the past...and I dont even have much history in sampling realm,...but i realize this.

Take the old Roland Orchestral CDs... $795 for TWO CDS!!!!

Why do people insinuate that these new libraries are horrible because of one or two \"flaws\"? and that other people \"love\" teh developers if we focus on the good points? Or even worse try to make the library better....on our own?

I did not like the original version of VotA because it just felt like another Akai Library...albiet HUGE... but it definitely needed programming. I even said the \"demand more\" statement when it was in its original form, just because the world had been introduced to a new level in programming.

I will ALWAYS agree with the statement that VotA is a bit expensive and that I could see it doing better and \"going over\" better at a price of $399 list. With the lack of variety in terms of \"style\" it jsut feels like a 399 library at the most http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Still I\'ll pay for it becuase I like the sound of it\\.

HOWEVER NICK... a discount for current users of VotA when VotA 2 comes out might be a nice thing.

or better yet. Get me to beta test man.. I might be able to help with programming ideas and features :P



------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[Mark UK]

\"........ Enough with loving your developer ... it\'s time to demand better quality and care ... the same way they demand such a high price -- with no return if not satisfied. ........\"

Francis - now you are twisting MY words!!

I am not saying that I am demanding better quality and care. I believe the samples I own, particularly GOS, are great and customer care is fabulous. What I AM saying is that it would be better to have more of the tweaking done (and I don\'t mind paying a bit more for someone to do it!) so that people like me who do not have enough technical interest to edit and tweak can be spared!!!

I wonder what classical composers of yester-year would have thought to sample libraries.... I believe it has come a HUGE way over the past few years although still believe things can improve hugely. Without people voicing their concerns, maybe the technical requirement by the end user will become a pre-requisite in the future for midi composing and orchestration ....

All said with absolutely no dis-respect to anyone on here. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by Mark UK (edited 03-24-2002).]

[Francis Belardino]

\"And what\'s all this about an \"out of the box\" experience with sample libraries? Do you guys expect VotA to \'sing\' for you with little or no work? That to me is unbelievable\"

I do not believe I ask VOTA to sing for me. My complaints are about noise and character (vibrato in the highs).

Nick, tells me, \"Thank you for you input\" and he leaves it at that. I thank him for not starting the flame wars I spoke of. All of this was merely my opinion about this library after spending time with it. Some here love it and maybe
some don\'t...all is well.

Again, let\'s look at the person who made the product... Nick writes: \"What I was saying is that, who cares? What you want is most important to you. You don\'t owe me a second look.\" Again, I thank him for trying to thank me for my input and putting this to rest.

I am very tired of complaints of a single product being attacked by others who state:
You cant expect it to SING out of the box.
You have to tweak to get this.
You may not have the technical skills to work the editor.
You may want to try a different reverb.
And so on...

Guess what? All of the above are very true. Yes, we should not except perfection. We should not expect Nick, or Gary or the rest to read our minds and make the sample library
custom to MY/our needs. They are all doing amazing things ... no doubt.

\"demand better quality and care\" simply meant:

Clean and relatively noise free samples. I don\'t mean musical noise.
Samples that play, or sing if you preferrer, without having to ask King 10 questions about how, what and where. The guy has a job, ya know? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
Samples that are released after proper testing (Thank you Mr. Garritan) and less hype.

So, I don\'t know what more to say. I agree with you guys and I don\'t. We are all cyber friends here. I know none of this could every get in the way of that.

Yikes. Next time I\'ll keep it to myself.

peace

[Francis Belardino]

I am not saying that I am demanding better quality and care. I believe the samples I own, particularly GOS, are great and customer care is fabulous. What I AM saying is that it would be better to have more of the tweaking done (and I don\'t mind paying a bit more for someone to do it!) so that people like me who do not have enough technical interest to edit and tweak can be spared!!!


I could not agree with you more!!!

[Mark UK]

Agreed http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif