Multi-velocity, multi-sample libraries are terrible and should be outlawed!

[Mark_Knecht]

Hi,
OK - so the title was obviously constructed towards getting your attention, making you enter here, and gett you to make some comments. Flame me if you want to, but at the outset, my comments are not really directed towards any of those that participate here on an regular basis. I don\'t own your libraries and I\'m not commenting on them. However, it is directed towards some of those that participate on a less regular basis, who will remain nameless. (At least from me...)

I don\'t actually mean what the title says, but I am frustrated and want to understand if others are too...

In every multi-velocity library I own (except for my new Scarbee Bass which I haven\'t had the time to determine if this is true) I find that there are definate problems in either the sampling or the way that GSt plays the library back, both in the velocity direction and in the keyboard/note direction.

In the velocity direction I\'m hearing differences in and around where the playback changes from one soft sample to the next louder sample. Some notes can be played with higher velocities, but actually come out softer than notes that were played softer. Also, there differences in the way the note might have been played at sample time that are too different (like lots of high frequencies on the medium velocity sample and then much less on the next higher velocity sample) and the two samples don\'t work well against each other if your MIDI file is bouncing around that switchover point.

In the keyboard/note direction, I\'m hearing differences in the overall EQ of the library from note to note, as well as apparent misplacements in the stereo field. (One piano I got recently actually mapped the entire keyboard backwards, with the higher notes coming out of left speaker! Go figure!)

Now, I\'m just a stupid user who buys these libraries and tries to make some music, and it\'s pretty clear to me that the job is a difficult one for you library developers. In the case of piano libraries, I guess it\'s something like 700 samples to keep straight if you\'re going to do 4 layers of pedal up/pedal down, and more with release samples. So you have my respect for trying, but criminy (sp?!) this is frustrating!

So, the questions that arise are:

1) Are other people reacting to this, or I\'m I just being over critical?

2) How is one supposed to find a library that meets the standards I expect from my tools?

OK, I\'m sure some have been chuckling so far, and I\'m sure some others will want to flame me, so just send those emails to:

mark@\\dev\\null.com

I look forward to hearing what others say on this subject.

Cheers,
Mark

[Thomas_J]

I understand your frustration, but like you said it\'s hard for the developers to read the minds of the end-consumers. No matter what you do there\'ll always be people complaining.

The complaint against Nick\'s demos of VoTA goes to show a lot really.
I\'m pretty sure this user would dislike the whole VoTA library, coz quite frankly I can\'t see how it could sound any better. It sounds almost like the real thing. (The choir, not the orchestral backing mind you)

Great example that users expect different things of a library. Some users don\'t even know what things are supposed to sound like, and complain about various stupid things.

This is why I\'m not releasing my costum samples, ever. There would be a bunch of unsatisfied costumers who couldn\'t get the same sound as I am getting, and they would dislike the library because they couldn\'t make it sound any good. They would complain that things sound weird, that some notes sound weirder than others, that some articulations were missing, etc.. What would I benefit from it? I\'d prolly earn $500 or so before the library got pirated. I think Nick is d*mn brave if you ask me.

Thomas

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:

This is why I\'m not releasing my costum samples, ever. There would be a bunch of unsatisfied costumers who couldn\'t get the same sound as I am getting, and they would dislike the library because they couldn\'t make it sound any good. They would complain that things sound weird, that some notes sound weirder than others, that some articulations were missing, etc.. What would I benefit from it? I\'d prolly earn $500 or so before the library got pirated. I think Nick is d*mn brave if you ask me.

Thomas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Thomas. If it was a popular library, you\'d earn a lot more than $500 whether it was pirated or not.

Remember that a library has to be popular before it seems that users start griping. I don\'t know if Nick is brave or not but he makes great libraries. I can\'t honestly remember anyone griping about the content of his libraries (post his early guitar library), and his demos sound exceptionally good to me.

I would like to see more demos from developers when libraries are released and the adoption of new user-created demos when the library is in circulation.

To the original poster; I haven\'t experienced any of the horrors you describe, but this still is a pretty young sector and the problems we consumers face are at least partly offset by the rewards we gain in having access to these great tools.

I think perhaps you should mention exactly which libraries are causing which problems; take the flames (and there will be - as it seems to miff some people here if someone commits the blasphemy of complaining instead of constantly offering thanks and cash) and see if you can\'t get some solutions here. A lot of developers here really do try hard; even after a release.

I think your post may be a bit to general and likely to act as an offence magnet rather than a starting point for a discussion.

Thomas has already jumped in on the defence here and he\'s about one of the nicest guys on this board.

Thomas: Why not release your library - make some cash; make another, use it, release it etc? You know that there is a huge gap in the market for your \'far\' brass that sounds so good in your demos?

Before you know it there will be thousands and thousands of libraries competing with each other on this platform. If you have access to the means to create libraries, it\'s worth thinking about to get a head start.

I\'m still waiting for a classical guitar; I\'d do it myself, but a radio shack mike and the noise from the freeway next to my apartment might hurt the quality a little :-)

[Mark_Knecht]

Z6,
I decided not to specifically comment on the exact issues I\'m seeing with any specific library for two reasons:

1) It could just be my bad luck at buying libraries, or that I\'m being over critical. I want to gauge whether other USERS, as opposed to DEVELOPERS, are having concerns like mine. (Not that developers can\'t be users!)

2) If I point out a problem with one developer\'s library, my concern is that he\'s POTENTIALLY going to be the target of other developers pointing those problems out in the future, and I do not wish to be associated with being the one that started that. Let the developers figure out how to do their own competitive marketing. Personally I have no issue with owning 10 great pianos. Different pianos sound different, and I have uses for all sorts of sounds. I just want the libraries I buy to be truly excellent.

Now, I have no issue with developers pointing out the problems in other libraries. I wish they would, in fact, as I\'d have more info to look at prior to my purchase. I just think no one here necessarily want to start a flame war, nor do all of them have access to each others libraries to make studied comments.

And again, this thread is really targeted a bit more towards users of the libraries as opposed to the developers.

Cheers,
Mark

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Z6:
<SNIP>
I think perhaps you should mention exactly which libraries are causing which problems; take the flames (and there will be - as it seems to miff some people here if someone commits the blasphemy of complaining instead of constantly offering thanks and cash) and see if you can\'t get some solutions here. A lot of developers here really do try hard; even after a release.

I think your post may be a bit to general and likely to act as an offence magnet rather than a starting point for a discussion.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[caveman]

Hi All

I am having similar problems. But here is the deal, I think I am not setting something properly on my Fatar Sl1100 Controller. I have Ultimate Strings, Malmsjo Piano, Gigaspiano, East West Steinway, African Beats, AO.

Whenever I play any of these samples on my Fatar SL1100, I get the problem of sometimes a note would be irregular louder bursts than other, well check this out. I use my Roland XP 30 Synthesizer instead and my samples do not give irregular soft to random louder notes

Could this be a setting within the Fatar Keyboard that is causing Iregularity of doft then too loud whrn hitting the keys?

Question 2:

How the heck can one set the Roland Xp 30 synth or the Fatar Sl1100 Modulation wheel to use expression instead of Modulation? I wish to control expression by using Mod wheel instead, how does one set this up?


I would much appreciate it!

Please shed some light, its dark in here!!!!


Caveman

[Mark_Knecht]

Caveman,
Very interesting that I\'m using the Fatar SL-1100 also....

I could see this effecting the volume side of things, but not the overall EQ Of one key vs. another. Also, this would be a real time issue, but you could certainly do what I\'ve done, which is make a file that plays notes at known MIDI velocities to uncover problems...

Very interesting indeed.

Cheers,
Mark

[This message has been edited by Mark_Knecht (edited 03-21-2002).]

[Jamieh]

While I have noticed certain problems with specific notes or velocities in some of my multi-layer libraries, I haven\'t noticed any problems that were so terrible that they outweighted the benefits that multiple layer samples give.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 03-21-2002).]

[Mark_Knecht]

Jamieh,
Why settle? Why do we accept this?

OK, I\'ll agree that there should be advantages to having multiple layer libraries, but when the library is badly executed and notes get weird, what\'s the point?

Shouldn\'t there be updates to fix this stuff?

Mark

[Munsie]

\"I decided not to specifically comment on the exact issues I\'m seeing with any specific library for two reasons:\"

Sorry but, this is just BS! (No offense.) Sample developers are not Gods, they are out to make money from US, the consumer. If you paid good money for a library and you feel as if it is not up to spec, forums like this IS the place to address your concerns publicly. Remember, you can\'t get your money back from a sample library purchase so you better at least mention the libraries so other users can learn from your experience! So, spill the beans, which library(s) is it that is giving you problems?

As long as you\'re a legitimate user, no one will flame you on a personal level. We may not agree with your comments, but that is why we\'re here right? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Bring it on!!

[Jamieh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
Why settle? Why do we accept this?
OK, I\'ll agree that there should be advantages to having multiple layer libraries, but when the library is badly executed and notes get weird, what\'s the point?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well gee, I guess none of the many libraries I\'ve purchased have had problems bad enough to get me all worked up like you seem to be. Obviously I don\'t know which libraries have you all upset. I own several thousand dollars of Giga sample libraries. All of them use mutli-layer samples. And with the exception of one cheap one that I knew was crappy before I got it (I had to have a specific ethnic instrumet set) the rest have all been quite high quality libraries. Are they perfect? No. Some of them deal with multiple velocity layers better than others. But none of them have enough problems to get me as upset as you seem to be.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 03-21-2002).]

[Damon]

Sounds to me like something is wrong with your keyboard controller not responding to the velocities. All of the libraries I own play fine with the velocity sensitivity.

[thesoundsmith]

Perhaps more to the point, your performance style/keyboard velocity vector may be different than that created/tested/assumed by the developer.

I spent a lot of time when I first got my Akai S900 years ago, when IT was the HOT sampler-12 bits-WOW!!! The S9 could sample at completely variable rates (39,999 OR 40,000 OR 40,001-ANYTHING at all from around 8KHz up to 44.1. I created a table of optimal rates for the western equal tempered scale, so the resulting aliasing/harmonic artifacts were minimized. Then I tried to sample (SM57 and Senn 421, Soundcraftsman board, etc.) and loop mamy objects.

It was a great education, but what it mainly taught me is the really difficult process necessary to create decent (not great, just playable) sample sets. I wound up with several, including an alto sax I have still not been able to beat (and it sux!) and several percussive melodic instruments (my kalimba, a wood pitched drum, etc. These mostly made use of the dual-layer capability of the S9.

What I noticed, playing with my DX7, then a Roland board and a Korg, was they all played very differently. The transition point was critical for playing naturally, and varied with each keyboard.

And BTW, the timbre WILL change when you shift to a louder sample (but it should not SOUND softer...

Dasher

[matucha]

I think it really depends on a keyboard... almost everything should be optimized for use with your controller.

Some years ago there was not-chromaticly and not multi-velocity sampled instruments normal. Today we have 4 velocities as a standard and in a future I can se 16 or even 24 velocities as nothing extravagant.

But consider how the sampling time is growing... so the nr. of \"not so\" consistent keys (velocities) grows too. When I\'m creatin my multisamples, I just go all keys in FF than all keys in F and, of course, results are not great for every note. I\'m unable to achieve constant velocity. But hey, I do these instruments for my use and I don\'t care about the imperfection. An I want to have very characterictic instruments, not a cold perfect ones.

Do any PRO (multi xxx) instrument creator use any tool/machine to play at fixed velocity? Or you play like human?

Playing consistent 16 velocities on all the 88 piano keys is, in my opinion work for machine, not for human ;-).

[thesoundsmith]

Matucha,

I totally agree with you that your samples should be optimized for your controller-but who does the optimization? The only one who can really do this is you,. I used to have a set of DX7 patches, some originals, some tweaks of factory patches, and some flat standard. I had several local keyboardists ask for copies, and I gave them away. Every one of them came back and asked, \"Are you sure you gave me the correct set? They don\'t sound the same!\"

Of course not-they didn\'t play like me. So my tweaks are not going to work for you, and vice versa. BUT-most musicians are not going to take the time to learn HOW to tweak, and then spend the time to analyze and edit the files. There is the difference between the great sound and the very good sound, between the convincing emulation and \'close.\'

But the original release library should, in my opinion, be as consistent as possible. It is the developer\'s job to make the tonal and dynamic balance as consistent and perfect across the range as possible, just as it is the instrument manufacturer\'s job. A piano that changes volume from note to note at the same velocity is a cheap, poorly-made instrument. I\'m all for allowing a machine to pluck the string or strike the key when in development mode, providing it can produce a quality tone. (A piano-strike would work just fine, but a sax-breath mechanism probably would NOT cut it!)

Let the performer produce the dynamic and timbral changes, let the developer produce the most balanced product he or she can.

Dasher