Bigga Grand - first beta, opinions wanted!

[Worra]

Ok, here we go, this is the very first betaversion of the upcoming \"Bigga Grand\".
And, as usuall, I\'ll take the opportunity to adress this forum to get feedback before tweeking. So, here we go, (and remember, it\'s a beta, for example, no releasesamples are implemented yet)www.worrasplace.com/demos/BiggaGrand-Beta02.mp3

(I\'ve changed the link so that it DL the latest mp3)
/Worra

[This message has been edited by Worra (edited 03-21-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Worra (edited 03-21-2002).]

[zquarles]

I don\'t have the greatest \"piano\" ear in the world but I do love what I hear so far.
It\'s very bright (or at least brighter than gigapiano...which is what I am used to now) and sounds like you\'ll be able to play fast passages with little to no problem.
How long is the sustain? Meaning how long can you keep your finger on the key before it fades into the ether?

[Mark_Knecht]

Worra,
Cool. We\'ll have another toy to play with soon.

A couple of comments based on a quick listen. It is a bit brighter than the other main ones I\'m using or interested in. (Giga, Trachtman, EW Steinway B and Bardstown) that\'s cool. It\'s good to have choices. I\'m finding that many of the pianos out there right now seem to have lower registers that sit well in my mixes while the upper registers do not have as much impact...

One issue right now would be that your sample is considerably more quiet than the other samples, so the mp3 pales a bit by comparison. I would suggest that you download a few of the mp3s of the other pianos and then normalize against them. This should lead to a more accurate comparison.

Thanks for the opportunity to comment.

Cheers,
Mark

[ed hamilton]

Worra,

It sounds pretty good.
The stereo image is not very wide (was your mp3 mono??)
I will re-listen at my studio tomorrow on my genelec mains.
The tuning on certain notes is questionable. Too much chorusing.

What piano is this? But I like the direction that you are heading. As I have posted before, Closer miked brighter grands have been neglected so far.

I wish you all the best. I hope to have some room a a credit card for you when its ready.

[Michiel Post]

Hi Worra!
The demo shows a few spots where the difference between the loud and soft velocities result in a huge difference in sound (for example at 0\'12 and at 0\'49 and 0\'50) ; this is both great (as it will be very expressive) and not good. It might become difficult to play when the layers of velocity have big \'jumps\'in the timbre. How many layers did you sample and how many do you plan to program? I would suggest making several variations (like a dark piano with more of the soft layers and a \"bright\" variation).
I like the aspect of the sound that makes this demo very direct, very close. Makes it suited for many music styles.
I\'ll send you some midi test files to work with for further tweaking.
Good luck!
Michiel Post

[Worra]

Thanx for your response so far, (though I expect many more http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif...)

Some background:

The Grand used was a Malmsjo Grand (no, not the same used on MAG, this is slightly newer, from the 30\'s)
It was recorded in a room that has ambience without being \"reverbish\". I used x/y miking, that\'s why there isn\'t the normal left-right panning. I did this because I wanted to make something different.

There are 4 velocities sampled pedal down, 4 velocities pedal up and 4 velocities of releasesamples.
All 88 notes are sampled, full envelope, so some notes are up to 2 minutes long.

The first small mp3 was used using the first beta, where I more or less just put the velocity splits where I thought they should be. I\'ve made a new mp3 after changing them around a bit, and I think this one sounds better, still a beta, but better....
The first one was a bit too bright since almost only the f and ff layers where used.

Here\'s the new mp3: http://www.worrasplace.com/demos/BiggaGrand-Beta02.mp3 (\"http://www.worrasplace.com/demos/BiggaGrand-Beta02.mp3\")

What do you think, better?

/Worra

[Chadwick]

Hey Worra,

The new mp3 sounds better.

I really like what is probably the lower three velocity layers (just love the warmth of the softer stuff).

But, for me, the ff layer is still too glassy/bright. It\'s loud, but too piercing. Is there anything you can do to calm it down a bit?

That\'s just my opinion though. I\'ve got Hans\' MAG and I love the way it sits in a mix, and have wondered if he will ever get a chance to record a real ff layer on that piano again - so your direction is great from my point of view - just seems to go a little too far.

[caveman]

Hi Worra

I agree with Chadwick, there is too much of a sharp ring to the upper register. Otherwise I like it very much. It definaetly has feel to it!!!


Caveman

[EnsoniqWiz]

Worra,

Looks like you\'re off to a fine start with this instrument.

I downloaded the MP3 and took a couple of listens to it... I\'m *really* picky about piano samples, so I\'m frequently guilty of nitpicking more than I should!

Your first three velocity levels (especially the two softest) are absolutely superb. They have a lyrical warmth. The third velocity level seems good as well, and is sufficiently bright. However, the final velocity level is, to my ear, harsh. It seems to add percussive components at the expense of the tonal components -- to excess, even for a Malmsjo piano.

To me, this is especially noticeable in the first heavy-velocity low octave after the opening run. It is percussive and harsh to my ear, yet some of the bass notes that follow it (even though they are played with less velocity) are peceived as \"louder\" by my ear -- they carry more tonal elements.

However, I agree that, from what I\'ve seen thus far, the \"brighter\" grands have been passed over in favor of the \"biggies.\" I don\'t want to sacrifice the really pleasing sound of the first 3 velocity samples... they\'re quite nice, indeed.

I\'m a little suspicious of the tuning on a couple of the notes -- higher ones. I\'d have to hear some different pieces played on it to make up my mind on this aspect.

Another item I noticed, and appreciated, was the *lack* of panning! Yep -- that has always bothered me, to some extent, because it is almost always over exaggerated. At least to my ear, when sitting down at a real grand piano (or upright, for that matter) there is a less noticeable pan from high to low than on samples. At least that is how I hear it. Further, when the piano is not close-miked, but is \"au natural\" so to speak, there is virtually no separation! The piano is sideways relative to the listener in the audience.

Unquestionably, you\'ve captured and assembled some marvelous samples. I\'ll certainly be interested to hear the final product, as I\'m sure it will warrant serious consideration!

[Worra]

The FF layers are played hitting the keys the hardest I could. Therefore they might be a bit \"over the top\".
I\'m therefore gonna put the top velocity layer between, maybe 120-127, maybe even higher.

I really don\'t wanna do any editing of the samples, like filtering, if I don\'t absolutly have to, so I\'ll try by putting the FF at the very top of the velocity scale, so you\'ll have the \"bang-the-keys\" there if you need it. I\'ll be posting some more demos soon.

I\'ll also having some pianists betatesting the piano so that we can determ if it needs balancing. Now the velocity splits are the same throughout the keyboard.

It\'s really great to get this input from the forum!

/Worra

[clueless]

I detect a fluttering or vibrato-like effect when many notes are sounding. Is that an MP3 artifact?

clueless

[Worra]

Ok, some more tweeking done. I\'ve altered the velocity layers around a bit.... http://www.worrasplace.com/demos/BiggaGrand-Beta03.mp3 (\"http://www.worrasplace.com/demos/BiggaGrand-Beta03.mp3\") http://www.worrasplace.com/demos/BiggaGrand-Beta03-Demo2.mp3 (\"http://www.worrasplace.com/demos/BiggaGrand-Beta03-Demo2.mp3\")

[EnsoniqWiz]

Worra,

I took a listen to the updated demo this morning. Unfortunately, I\'m stuck here at work, so I\'m listening on crappy speakers. I\'ll be sure to listen again on my monitors when I get home later on.

Two quick observations:

1) There is still one note where the tuning bothers me. It is exposed later in the demo piece when it is played in an octave. I\'ll try to isolate it for you, and let you know which one bothers me.

2) This comment is probably brought about by having crappy speakers, so I may need to revise this comment pending a re-hear. It seems to me that perhaps you have gone slightly *too* far in moving the ff samples\' velocity setting. Most, if not all, of the harshness I picked up on the previous demo is gone, but so is some of the brightness (understandably). I think you\'re very close on the v-point, though.

Again, I tend to be awfully picky about pianos... I really do like what I hear! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif

[David Abraham]

http://www.worrasplace.com/demos/BiggaGrand-Beta03.mp3 (\"http://www.worrasplace.com/demos/BiggaGrand-Beta03.mp3\")

I like the piano a lot, but I hear some excessive hiss just after the Bb sus chord at around 00:06 -00:07 in the above MP3 link. Can this be removed?

-david abraham

[zquarles]

Worra-
I know it\'s in the beta stages, but have you thought about how much you will charge for this bad-boy yet?
:-)

[Worra]

I think I\'m slowly getting to what I intended this piano to be like when I set out to sample it.
There\'s some tweeking yet to be done, but, hmmmm.... I\'m beginning to like this myself!
http://www.worrasplace.com/demos/BiggaGrand-Beta04.mp3 (\"http://www.worrasplace.com/demos/BiggaGrand-Beta04.mp3\") http://www.worrasplace.com/demos/BiggaGrand-Beta04-Demo4.mp3 (\"http://www.worrasplace.com/demos/BiggaGrand-Beta04-Demo4.mp3\")

/Worra

[EnsoniqWiz]

Worra,

Clearly, Beta-04 is the best one yet, in my opinion. You\'ve kept the brightness and lost the harshness that I picked up in the first couple of betas.

I like the price projection, too!

If you need a beta tester, let me know! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif

[Worra]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zquarles:
Worra-
I know it\'s in the beta stages, but have you thought about how much you will charge for this bad-boy yet?
:-)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Price not set yet, but not over $100.

/Worra