Bach Chaconne with DDSS and breath control

[Duncan Brinsmead]

I\'ve just gotten a breath controller(BC3A) working with the Dan Dean solo violin. I rigged up a patch using breath control for attenuation of the arco samples and velocity
to control attenuation of a stacatto sample layer. Thus I get legato by pressing lightly on the keys. As a test I performed the Bach Chaconne for solo violin:
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/380/duncan_brinsmead.html (\"http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/380/duncan_brinsmead.html\")

This is more or less as I played it, with a few touchups, although I did need to perform in several sections, as I kept running out of breath. I play french horn, but the chaconne was not written with breaths in mind. Also I just find that the breath controller required a fairly high level of wind to stay in the mid range of the output. It was quite exhasting.
At any rate, I found this setup provided the control that I\'ve always been missing with sustaining instruments.

Duncan

[A_Sapp]

What kind did you get, the Yamaha one lets you adjust how much wind is allowed through it. So you can blow gently, but still create big crescendos, and not run out of breath.

[Duncan Brinsmead]

I got the Yamaha BC3-A, but I lost the little end cap. I\'ve been making due with a screw, and I adjust it to block most of the flow. I think part of the problem is that I can\'t make the attenuation curve non-linear in gigasampler. I can adjust the curve on the BC3-A, but the problem is that the first few steps of controller volume from 0 to around 4 represent strong jumps, so there is a stepping effect as one fades in from zero breath. The general solution I\'ve been using is to play generally towards the upper range of the controller, which requires a fair bit of wind pressure. Ultimately what I would like is to have it respond evenly with the lightest of puffs, but I have not been able to set this up(although at this point I think it is more a giga issue than a BC3A issue). I guess part of is is also that I\'m not used to blowing when I play the piano. It makes it a much more visceral experience.

Duncan

[A_Sapp]

Yea, well, I\'m a trumpet player, (first chair, might I add http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif) so blowing a lot of air isn\'t really a problem. But once in awhile, I\'ll see funny colors when I use the controller.

[Duncan Brinsmead]

I\'ve seen stars playing french horn( on fff high C\'s) With the breath controller I\'ve had this weird problem where some of the air escapes back up my nose, creating a snorting sound( I\'ve never had this happen with the horn, although I\'ve no idea what the difference is ).

Duncan

[magnus]

i have a question...

does your midi keyboard have a breath controller input? or are you using a kurzweil? or just where exactly do you plug it into? i noticed it has one of those stereo jacks and i dont know where you\'d input it. i dont have one mind you but i am thinking of purchasing one but info on them seems limited.

[A_Sapp]

Dude, I don\'t know about the snorting problem, but I fell outta my chair laughing at that, well done. The wind controller thing: If you have a keyboard that has an input jack that\'s specifically MADE for breath controller input, than you can get a breath controller, and plug it into that jack. And there shouldn\'t be much info on a breath controller, because all it really does is just allow you to control the volume with the amount of air you blow.

[magnus]

that sucks...

i have to buy a whole nother keyboard to use a breathe controller.

[Mark_Knecht]

Hey,
Good thing I kept my DX-7!
Mark

[Mark_Knecht]

Nice playing Duncan. I enjoyed it all the way through.

Take care,
Mark

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Duncan Brinsmead:
I\'ve just gotten a breath controller(BC3A) working with the Dan Dean solo violin. I rigged up a patch using breath control for attenuation of the arco samples and velocity
to control attenuation of a stacatto sample layer. Thus I get legato by pressing lightly on the keys. As a test I performed the Bach Chaconne for solo violin:
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/380/duncan_brinsmead.html (\"http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/380/duncan_brinsmead.html\")

This is more or less as I played it, with a few touchups, although I did need to perform in several sections, as I kept running out of breath. I play french horn, but the chaconne was not written with breaths in mind. Also I just find that the breath controller required a fairly high level of wind to stay in the mid range of the output. It was quite exhasting.
At any rate, I found this setup provided the control that I\'ve always been missing with sustaining instruments.

Duncan<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Duncan Brinsmead]

Thanks Mark. I\'m curious what people think about the naturalness of the sound. Layering the stacatto samples on the arco creates a slight doubling effect, in some places sounding a bit like 2 players in unison. There was something that bothered me about the sound in some of the soft passages, although I\'m not sure what it was. The sound of Dan Dean violin is good, but I would prefer something a bit more silvery( for lack of a better word ). Perhaps adding some subtle portamento in places might help. Being able to remove the vibrato at times might also be nice(perhaps I could use the OBtune plugin to nullify the vibrato).

By the way, I don\'t have a breath controller input on my synth( a Korg T1 ). Instead I purchased a breath controller processor box from Midi Solutions. It works great, although it was a bit of a pain to set the response curves using sys exclusive messages.

Duncan

[thesoundsmith]

Duncan,

Nice playing. I\'m still not convinced, which is to say if I heard this without knowing it was GS with breath controller, I would wonder what the violinist had been smoking, because of the volume inconsistencies from section to section. But as an example of BC expression, a worthy effort, and nicely done.

I believe if you resolved the lost screw, so you could fine-tune the pressure gradient, it would resolve the volume issue (and sober up the violinist :-) )

But a really nice solution to the breath controller interface. Much cheaper and more portable than my Kurzweil 2500X! BC wannabes take note!

Two questions, if I might -what parameters does the Midi Solutions box let you adjust? and, having had a different box of theirs in the past, have you had any problems with the SysEx settings being lost? I had to send back two CC mappers, as they kept reverting to the factory default, but this was several years ago, I trust they\'ve resolved the issue by now.

Dasher

[Mark_Knecht]

Duncan,
I didn\'t really get \'fooled\' into believing it was really a trained violinist, but it was pretty good. I don\'t know how long you\'ve been practicing with the breath controller. I\'m sure you\'ll discover some tricks as you work on it more.

I heard a bit of those problems I think on the softer parts. To me the sound didn\'t really sound like a box in to portions, but I\'d need to listen again to make a more studied comment.

My wife walked through the room when I was about 1/2 way through and commented that it sounded nice. Sometimes I think we\'re all a bit too close to this stuff...

Cheers,
Mark

[KingIdiot]

If we aren\'t close enough to this stuff, we\'ll be to blame for people \"accepting\" sounds as the real thing. One thing we can\'t FORGET tho is the music alone.

How Real it sounds and the musical content are two seperate things, we need to be able to focus on both. A hard thing to do sometimes....which is why we share...for other ears http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif...

<Soapbox crushes>

Dammit I new I shouldn\'t have grabbed the empty one http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[Duncan Brinsmead]

The midisolutions box allows one to adjust the message types generated, control range min max, curvature of the response (up or down and an amount ), as well as whether to echo the midi input to the output. I found it a little tedious to adjust, because each time I wanted to try something different I had to reverse the midi inputs, then type in a sys ex message in cakewalk( I can\'t send sys ex from my keyboard ). So far I haven\'t noticed a problem with losing the settings.

By the way, one advantage to a breath controller for something like the chaconne is the ability to handle double stops. For some of the sections I allowed 4 strings to sound, which I later considered breaking up. However an interesting tidbit I read was that the violin of Bachs day could handle playing all strings at the same time. I suppose the bow had more play and the bridge was less curved( though I\'m not up on early instrument design ). It\'s fun to be able to play the chaconne without having to go through all those years of Suzuki classes. I\'ve played it on the piano, but it\'s just not the same.

Duncan

[thesoundsmith]

Thanks for the reply, Duncan. Yeah, that is pretty cool, (try THAT from yer WX-7, wind controller advocates!)

I have found a fast(er) way to get those sysEx messages into the devices that need it. In Digital Performer, I have a sequence that is part of my default \'new\' setup that includes pre-made sysEx streams for the instruments that have use for it. Oncew one works, I save it as a track, label it in Comments, and have ready-made transmissions-just activate, run the sequencer, and two bars later it\'s done.
It\'s still a pain, but a LOT better than futzing with the manuals, usually only one number needs to be changed, if you can calculate the checksums.

Dasher

[Z6]

Hey Duncan,

Just wanted to revise my opinion a little - I love the final part; wonderful. The fact that it sounds like three people playing makes it even more interesting. I take it that the arrangement you used realised all of Bach\'s implied harmonies (or maybe he also wrote it for some other instrument; not sure)?

Man, I would pay to see you perform this (and I think Bach would have been tickled pink by it; of course I didn\'t know him personally and maybe he would have opened a can of whuppass for what you did.)

You have made me want to dig out the music and give it a whirl on my trusty Ztar (the biggest compliment I could pay is that you make me want to play the music myself). Of course, it will sound like crap when I play it, but it keeps me happy. Now I\'m kicking myself for not getting a built-in wind controller on my Ztar.

Seriously though, if you can do this live, you would certainly find an audience; maybe it\'s time for the world to find out exactly how powerful this new technology is in the hands of a very talented musician.

I look forward to the Cello Suites?

[Duncan Brinsmead]

Thanks, Z6. I can\'t perform it the same live, because breathing is a problem...perhaps I could do some clever breath marks and practice it. (I didn\'t really practice it beforehand with the breathing). Also I did have to clean up some spots where the breath controller wigged out.. the soft passages were very touchy. I think that the basic control concept I\'m using is performable, however.
I even have a free hand and foot for more controllers if I can handle them. I was thinking that a ribbon controller might be good for vibrato.. just touching and wiggling like on a string. Has anyone had success with this?

I think I could do a decent slide( or portamento ) in post, but I have no idea how to do it realtime with giga. I would create 2 tracks, put source note in one track and target in second track. Then paint in two pitch bend events with a fade in and fade out of the amplitude( the target note would be moved forward to overlap the source ). Pretty tedious, but it might sound OK. I might try writing a cakewalk script to do it.

I\'m using a piano arrangement for the left hand by Brahms. In part he fleshed out harmonies in a few places( a couple of spots I was inclined to use some of the lower octave notes he had in places, but kept it to just one note, as the transposed violin notes didn\'t sound too good( I could perhaps add the viola and cello sounds to extend the bottom range). Also the original score by Bach has, I believe, much fuller harmonies than can be performed on a violin. In some places he simply left it up to the performer to decide how to arpeggiate and break the chords. I rather like the effect of the broken chords in the opening theme.. it might not sound as dramatic when played straight.

Duncan

[magnus]

how do you program the midi solution box to the gigasampler? or can you? i was readin the manual for that thing and it seemed pretty complicated. i tried to find a place on gigasampler where i could make those sysexc changes but couldn\'t find where to do it.

[Simon Ravn]

...............


[This message has been edited by Simon Ravn (edited 03-19-2002).]

[gabriels]

I\'ve had years of dealing with breath controllers... from way before the Yamaha Breath Controllers. I had a custom built wind controller which had an interesting solution to the problem of simulating the air flow and back pressure of a saxophone. It could be adjusted to simulate flute or other winds as well.

The controller consisted of a cylinder which was open at one end only. There was a thin rubber membrane covering the open end. Glued to the middle of the membrane was a shutter in the shape of a triangle. There was an exhaust hole with a peg in it, that allowed more or less air to flow out of the chamber. When I\'d blow into the chamber (via a mouthpiece) the membrane would stretch upwards, pushing the shutter into the path of an LED and light receptor pair. This would create a varying voltage which was used to turn on a voltage controlled amplifier --->volume. Very smooth, very natural feeling. With the Yamaha BC, the problem seems to be that you either don\'t get rid of enough air (so that you feel as if you are going to explode and suffocate at the same time), or you set it up so that there\'s a lot of air flow (in which case you run out of air in a short time, and need to take a breath). The back pressure never feels quite right either.

I eventually went to a yamaha bc, but have regretted it ever since, and need to bring the old breath controller back into existence... do I do that or try to play music... always a big question with these kind of things.

I don\'t think you can really get any settings of sensitivity, offset, and air flow with the Yamaha BC that feel truly like a woodwind.
Gabriel

[Z6]

Duncan, I thought that was absolutely fantastic. A credit to you and Dan Dean.

The intro and some of the bolder attacks worked best; which I found surprising.

I know this piece very well indeed. Considering it\'s just Dan\'s library (and your sterling efforts) the dynamics and variation of attack were quite astonishing.

I\'d like to hear what a violinist with no experience of samples would think (they do exists in droves).

Certainly, there are some weak spots, but it has the beginnings of one of those \"nobody can tell\" pieces. Beautifuly performed.

I don\'t think it sounded drunk at all. Anyone who ever listened to most violonists try to play this piece would see how great a job Duncan has done. This kind of piece really exposes a library. I think this would make Mr. Dean rightfully very proud.

I\'m sure with a bit of tweaking under the microscope (jeez, I\'m listening to it now - one of the really expressive parts - Phucking amazing!) this would be very, very special indeed.

Hey Dan get this tweaked a bit, put it on your site and you\'ll sell another coupla thousand copies of your wonderful string library.

[Oksi Moron]

Duncan,

Great stuff! I guess I\'ve listened to more guitar readings of this piece than violin, and among guitarists there seem to be two ways to play it: as a series of episodes with no overarching \"curve,\" or as a curved whole that climaxes about two-thirds of the way through. Segovia and Williams play it the second way; Bream, uncharacteristically for him, plays it the first way. I can\'t make up my mind which way yours leans.

Z6,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Z6:
I look forward to the Cello Suites?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So happens I have a snippet of the G major prelude (done with a WX5 wind controller and the XSample vibrato-less cello) that I would love to share with somebody, but I feel guilty about posting the URL here, because this is about the third time that I\'ve piggybacked my own work on some braver soul\'s thread-opener in a most unseemly fashion, and I\'m starting to feel like a real wienie.

So, Z6, let me take this opportunity to tell you that you have long seemed to me like a man after my own heart, and I would love to correspond with you offline about all this \"trompe l\'oreille\" stuff, as well as ask you to listen to the cello excerpt. I need someone to bounce ideas off privately, ideas I\'m too shy to post on the forum, being a tender-hearted sort. We have a lot in common: we\'ve both been Silicon Valley tech writers, we\'re both classical guitarists, both 40-somethings, and both subject to pimples on the nose. And no, this is not a personals ad. If you\'re interested (strictly business), contact me at my \"blind\" email address, dansereal@yahoo.com.

Oksi

[Duncan Brinsmead]

>how do you program the midi solution box >to the gigasampler? or can you?

I don\'t think gigasampler can do it(could be wrong). Most sequencer programs can output sysEx messages, however... I used Cakewalk. Its not too hard, but you may need to take a deep breath and step through the instructions carefully.
I\'m not sure how well it works with the BC3A, but I\'ve heard about a processor called the Anatec Wind Machine. It has knobs and controls on the box instead of needing sysEx messages(much better), although I don\'t think it is available anymore(perhaps on ebay).

Duncan

[Duncan Brinsmead]

>among guitarists there seem to be two ways
>to play it: as a series of episodes with
>no overarching \"curve,\" or as a curved
>whole that climaxes about two-thirds of
>the way through.

Interesting point. I see it primarily as a two-part structure with some similarities to the goldberg variations. There is an initial theme followed by 30 variations, articulated at the halfway point by a change to major and partial restatement of the theme followed by another 30 variations then the closing theme.
However at about the two-thirds point you mention I think there is the major climax. There is an implied pedal on the dominant that is not obvious in some violin performances.. I tried to emphasize it more strongly. Bach frequently used such pedal notes leading into the climax. I had some teachers who said that Bach liked to place the climax based on the golden mean. (Personally I don\'t think that such ratios are important to a listener.. it is more a matter of natural expectation)

After playing the chaconne I went and listened to some other performances of it, and was surprised at the amount of rubato and sudden tempo changes between variations. It\'s a slow stately dance form, after all. There is perhaps something about solo violin that encourages more rubato. I don\'t think that a piano performer would tend to take as many liberties...perhaps because one can\'t hold out a note. I\'ll have to get some of those guitar performances you mentioned.

Duncan