Jinjee's Horns=Advanced Orchestra!??!?!

[Simon Ravn]

OK I am a bit confused, surprised and shocked. I was working on a piece trying to add a 2nd french horn section playing the same part on top of my Advanced Orchestra French Horn part. I loaded Jinjee\'s Horns \'French Horn 1.gig\' I then played it... woooah - phasing. I thought hmm did I put the same sample A0 sample inthere twice? But no... I then played some notes on both the French Horn (long forte) 1 from Jinjee and the FH LONG FF from A0 - THEY WERE EXACTLY THE SAME!!!
What am I missing here? Did Jinjee license some of the samples from A0? I then tried the French Horn Forte 2.gig (which is mono) and that seems to be some slightly altered (eq\'ed, maximized and mono\'ed) version of the same sample.
Uhm... anyone care to fill me in on something I missed? I thought Jinjee\'s Horns was a new recording... apparently not?????

Simon

[migo]

Are you also able to compare his strings CD to Advanced Orchestra?

[Simon Ravn]

Nope I don\'t have Jinjee\'s strings yet, but I\'ll probably buy them since they\'re so damn cheap. I just don\'t hope everything is the same as AO http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Gonna check some more on the brass cd later....

[ursatz]

Hmmm - interesting. I have Jinjee\'s strings and brass. I\'m pretty certain nothing in the strings duplicates AO - Jinjee\'s strings are all solo, and they don\'t sound much like the AO solos. But then, I just finished a project where I used AO Fr. Horns along with Jinjee\'s, and I didn\'t notice any duplication - I\'ll check more closely.

[This message has been edited by ursatz (edited 07-21-2000).]

[Georg]

Hi,
its an interesting theme for me as a producer of sound libraries.
Would be interested to hear more about it.
I know how much time it take to build a library.
Steeling sounds is a bad, uncreative and illegal job!
But sounds like French Horn have a very low pitch modulation, so two sounds of different libraries can also cause a phasing effect.
You can provide phasing effects by panning one instruments on the left and the other on the right side.
To be shure, if two sounds are exactly the same:
- just export from the patch editor to Waves that should be compared
- Load the sounds in a Wave-Editor like Cool Edit, Sound Forge, Wave Lab or ...
- Invert the Phase of both channels of one sound
- mix them together
Now if there is absolute silence, the sounds are equal.
But there are some possibilyties of a little difference like a time offset...

Georg

[Chadwick]

I remember when I used to sell Emulator IIs, and the Kurzweil 250 came out. I got a chance to play the 250 and found several sounds identical to the EII\'s, like French Horn Ensemble (coincidentally enough), and choir.
Never found out who had the sounds first though.....

[ursatz]

Simon,

I\'ve listened to the Jinjee and AO Fr Horn samples again, and they sound very different - I was comparing AO French Horn Solo KEY and Jinjee French Horn Long Forte 1. Could it be you were getting some kind of GSt weirdness where you\'re not hearing the patch you think you are? Or maybe I\'m not comparing the same samples you were ....

[Nick Phoenix]

I thought Jinjees horns were all solo. The Jinjee patch I heard was included on the demo disk that came with my gigastudio. It is unquestionably a section. You can tell by the natural slight phasing sound that occurs when multiple players are playing almost the same pitch. I compared this Forte Jinjee french horn section to the Forte AO section. They are the same! Exactly the same.

[ursatz]

Nick,

Jeez, you are absolutely right. I was naively comparing with the AO *solo* horns. The Jinjee horns are exactly the same as the AO horn section - region for region, sample for sample. The samples aren\'t bitwise identical - maybe some eq difference or whatever - but it\'s clear enough that Jinjee\'s horns came from AO. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/mad.gif

Oh, and you\'re also right that Jinjee\'s horns are supposed to be solo.


[This message has been edited by ursatz (edited 07-22-2000).]

[Worra]

First of all, I don\'t have access to \"Advanced Orchestra\". If I had, I could easily prove that the samples wasn\'t the same.
Since we actually being accused of stealing here, (and I hope that you who makes these accusations at least think that you have VERY good grounds for doing this), we will make every effort nessecary to prove that you are wrong.

I\'ll welcome anyone who owns both \"Jinjee\'s Horns\" and AO and think that they can make a proper comparising, for example as \"Georg\" propose to do this.

I\'ve also contacted Klaus Kandler at Best Service who sells both AO AND Bigga Giggas and make them aware of this thread.

As you understand, accusing anyone of stealing are a very serious thing to do. We, Bigga Giggas, have always tried to be very fair towards our customers. We feel that this, together with making great sample CD\'s for a great price, are our trademark.

We therefore takes this type of accusations very seriously.

Per Larsson (Worra)
Bigga Giggas Europe

[Nick Phoenix]

Worra,
Is Jinjees brass a solo collection only like the ads say? The french horn patch that came with my gigastudio is unquestionably a section. Perhaps nemesys or you guys mixed up the sounds, because it IS the same as the AO Forte section. No doubt about it!! There is a very slight EQ difference, a slight range difference, but all of the the samples that I checked are the same.

[ursatz]

Worra,
I\'m not sure how you\'d *prove* that the samples came from AO, or that they didn\'t, since they\'ve clearly undergone a little bit of processing so they\'re not identical. But here\'s some food for thought - look at http://www10.ewebcity.com/wkcl/scrcap.jpg. (\"http://www10.ewebcity.com/wkcl/scrcap.jpg\") This is a screen capture showing two samples loaded into Sound Forge, one from AO (AOD2.wav), the other from Jinjee (JD3.wav). It seems pretty obvious to both eye and ear that they\'re the same.




[This message has been edited by ursatz (edited 07-23-2000).]

[Simon Ravn]

Nick, it was not \'mixed up by Nemesys\' or anything, since that patch is in the release of Jinjee\'s Horn - I don\'t have any demopatches installed so it is from the original.

[Simon Ravn]

Oh my god I don\'t know where this is leading... I just tried loading the Trombone Stereo Multi from Jinjee and TB LONG FF from AO - again, exactly the same - the tuning is slightly different though. I don\'t have the guts to try the piccolo trumpet, trumpets and tubas too though...

[Worra]

I\'ve looked at the screenshot from Sound Forge.
I can only speak about our CD, Jinjee\'s Horns, since I haven\'t access to AO.

The samples that are compared here are from \"French Horn 1.gig\" and a gig from AO.
Both are in stereo.
BUT all original samples on Jinjee\'s Horns are in MONO! \"French Horn 1.gig\" has been artificially made into a stereo-file.
The original samples can be found in \"Fr Horn Forte 2.gig\". If you compare the samples you can see that they are named the same and that they are of exactly the same length.
As I said, I haven\'t heard AO, but I suppose that they are all in stereo. The original \"Jinjee\'s Horns\" samples are in mono. Those of you that have the CD can verify this.

[Nick Phoenix]

Worra,
Why won\'t you answer the question? Is jinjees brass a solo collection or not? If it is solo only, then why is there a section in the library? Did you make this library or is someone else responsible? This mono- stereo talk is smoke and mirrors.

[Simon Ravn]

It doesn\'t really matter if your samples were in stereo/mono whatever - the reality is that they sound exactly the same as the AO ones which is not likely to happen if you do two different recordings of different players playing different instruments using different mic\'ing techniques etc.....
You should ask Jinjee (or whoever did Jinjee\'s Horns) about this - he probably has AO? Now 3 people have verified that the samples are the same and you still don\'t believe us? You think we\'re doing some conspiracy against you or what?

[ursatz]

Worra,
I\'m afraid I don\'t understand what you\'re getting at. You say that the \"original\" samples in the set are mono, and that owners of the set can verify this. But how? How could we tell for sure that the stereo samples were \"artificially\" created from a mono recording, as opposed to the other way around? (French Horn 1.gig, as delivered on the CD, is definitely stereo.)
The fact remains that the samples sound and look, for all practical purposes, exactly alike, which would be a coincidence of cosmic proportions if they came from separate recordings.

[Simon Ravn]

I am glad it was not me who was mad.... So now that we have confirmed this - it could be interesting to hear Worra\'s explanation to this....?! It seems like a downright rip of AO\'s samples - I have yet to check the trombones etc., so I don\'t know if this is the only one. Still, I don\'t find it likely that the sample WAS licensed from AO....

[Worra]

I\'m did not personally make this collection. A friend of mine did.
I\'m NOT trying to create \"smoke and mirrors\" and I\'m not thinking that you are doing some conspirecy. I\'m only trying to straighten out something that I think is VERY serious!

I can promise you that I\'m taking this very serious.

[Bigga Giggas USA]

Dear Nick Phoenix,
I am the person who assembled the source wavs for Jinjee\'s Horns into the Gig files....I can assure you and anyone else A) Jinjee\'s Horns are definitely all solo...All you have to do is open any Gig in the Editor and listen to any single WAV file that is in them. The \"phasing\" or whatever you are hearing is probably caused by the fact that there are multiple attacks in layers in the primary Gig files....It is possible to play a chord with different velocities on different fingers.thus accessing more than one layer/type of attack simultaneously. I regard this as a realistic advantage of this Gig design, since, as in real life, it can only happen when a chord is played.
I can also assure you and everyone else of the fact that all Bigga Giggas CDs are created with source wavs recorded originally by us......AND we have not licensed them to anyone. IF you were correct in your statement that Advanced Orchestra cds have the exact same sounds, then it is time for US to call our lawyers.
there IS a 3rd interesting possibility. Is someone perhaps posting fake \"AO\" Gigs to the newsgroups that are actually ours? If you are using original CD Advanced Orchestra Gig files, they cannot possibly be identical to ours unless they stole from us. I prefer toi believe that our competitors are honest. I am not so certain about people in newsgroups who are eager to get credit as the \"poster\" of a name Cd.
I am extremely saddened that you & others speculate so freely in public as regards our personal honesty yet never contacted us about your beliefs. At Bigga Giggas we have tried to do a good thing by bringing sample libraries into the affordable realm.... Apparently you actually believe that this is not possible without stealing....If you think about it for a moment you will realize that this whole thread is a compliment to what we have honestly accomplished. You are accusing us of being the same as a product costing far more...Anyone having any proof of REAL identical source wavs in sample cds should contact the companies involved. I will answer any and all e-mails to me regarding this. Also you may call 760-789-3791 (Ramona, California) to talk to me personally. We are accessible and we are honest.
Sincerely,
John Thomas
Bigga Giggas U.S.A.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
I thought Jinjees horns were all solo. The Jinjee patch I heard was included on the demo disk that came with my gigastudio. It is unquestionably a section. You can tell by the natural slight phasing sound that occurs when multiple players are playing almost the same pitch. I compared this Forte Jinjee french horn section to the Forte AO section. They are the same! Exactly the same. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Bigga Giggas USA]

Dear Simon,
You have confirmed nothing real unless AO Brass that you possess has source wavs stolen from Bigga Giggas..This is most likely to be the case if your \"AO\" is from a friend rather than from the Best Services people. Do you actually have AO or is this a \"copy\"? And I repeat...Open ANY Gig file on Jinjee\'s Horns and listen to individual wavs.they are not a \"section\" but solo horns..
I kind of like the part in this thread that says, \"bitwise\" and EQ wise they are not the same as the AO....The Jinjee\'s Horns are all original samples recorded by Jinjee and assembled into Gig files by Worra and myself as final editors.
I can easily forgive being compared to a higher-priced product, but let\'s get real about this. You are accusing us of stealing. This is an ugly situation and difficult to remain calm when one\'s integrity is attacked . I assure you we will have a genuine copy of AO in our hands to compare shortly. If we find what you are claiming is accurate...I will be surprised for 30 seconds and in contact with our copyright lawyer 30 seconds after that.
John Thomas
Bigga Giggas USA
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
I am glad it was not me who was mad.... So now that we have confirmed this - it could be interesting to hear Worra\'s explanation to this....?! It seems like a downright rip of AO\'s samples - I have yet to check the trombones etc., so I don\'t know if this is the only one. Still, I don\'t find it likely that the sample WAS licensed from AO....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Bigga Giggas USA]

Dear Ursatz...
There is actually a very simple way to prove that we have the raw, unedited originals.....I have a copy of them in my possession since I had to create the loop-points. Since the AO file is supposed to be a \"section\", when a sample is opened by itself, you should hear more than one horn....think about it. If it\'s only one horn that you find.....it probably isn\'t the real AO gig file....or their idea of a section varies from the norm.
I agree that the jpg posting you put up a link to, looks like an identical sample. I also recognize the sample as one of Jinjee\'s Horns...They are unmistakable to the original editor. Without hearing the wavs in the jpgs I can not be 1000% certain, but I personally set the loop-point in the wav that I see in the jpg. You will notice that the wav in question comes from our free demo FrenchHorn1.gig, which means that thousands of people have access to these wavs...
Please e-mail me any particulars about the website the jpg is at. I would like to converse with the owner of the site.
Best regards,
John Thomas
Bigga Giggas USA

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ursatz:
Worra,
I\'m not sure how you\'d *prove* that the samples came from AO, or that they didn\'t, since they\'ve clearly undergone a little bit of processing so they\'re not identical. But here\'s some food for thought - look at http://www10.ewebcity.com/wkcl/scrcap.jpg. (\"http://www10.ewebcity.com/wkcl/scrcap.jpg\") This is a screen capture showing two samples loaded into Sound Forge, one from AO (AOD2.wav), the other from Jinjee (JD3.wav). It seems pretty obvious to both eye and ear that they\'re the same.


[This message has been edited by ursatz (edited 07-23-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Bigga Giggas USA]

Hi guys;
This too is incorrect, I am sorry to say. Worra has gotten so upset now he is forgetting the time we spent editing. Jinjee provided us with mono and stereo sets of source wavs. (Worra set the loops on mostly the mono ones, so I\'m thinking that he has forgotten about the others)The stereo recordings are different than the mono ones, though they were recorded in the same sessions using the same players. Jinjee and myself set loop-points etc. on the stereo ones. I was given final editing/mastering responsibility, and I am certain on these issues. Unfortunately, Jinjee could not capture Piccolo Trumpet and Tuba in stereo, due to some standing-wave troubles and running out of time. All other instruments we included mono and stereo versions BECAUSE they are not the same. All you have to do is look at left and right sides of a WAV to see if it is true stereo or a convert. True stereo has differences and converted stereo is same on both sides. Also, you\'ll notice slight breath attack differences and even slight tuning variables that are inevitable when having brass players record. Each note is a new adventure (which one understands best if one has ever attempted to tune a horn)
John Thomas
Bigga Giggas USA

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Worra:
I\'ve looked at the screenshot from Sound Forge.
I can only speak about our CD, Jinjee\'s Horns, since I haven\'t access to AO.

The samples that are compared here are from \"French Horn 1.gig\" and a gig from AO.
Both are in stereo.
BUT all original samples on Jinjee\'s Horns are in MONO! \"French Horn 1.gig\" has been artificially made into a stereo-file.
The original samples can be found in \"Fr Horn Forte 2.gig\". If you compare the samples you can see that they are named the same and that they are of exactly the same length.
As I said, I haven\'t heard AO, but I suppose that they are all in stereo. The original \"Jinjee\'s Horns\" samples are in mono. Those of you that have the CD can verify this.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Simon Ravn]

Yes it is an original - not one from the \'newsgroups\' or whatever you\'re on about. Actually I have never seen AKAI sample CD\'s posted in newsgroups, only soundfonts (which are probably freeware most of them?). Advanced Orchestra is a 5 year old set or so, so AO couldn\'t possibly have stolen from your samples could they? That the samples should sound 100% the same from different recordings seems impossible to me. I don\'t know what is going on but it is a fact that three people now have confirmed that one or more instruments in AO are completely identical to som instruments in Jinjee\'s Horns.

Simon

[Bigga Giggas USA]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
You should ask Jinjee (or whoever did Jinjee\'s Horns) about this - he probably has AO? Now 3 people have verified that the samples are the same and you still don\'t believe us?

Dear Simon,
Bigga Giggas is not a company that goes out and hires unknown guys to create samples for us. We record our own. If YOU created samples for us, we would sell them under your brand-name, like we have already done with other independent producers. We believe in giving credit where it is due, so anything not recorded by Worra, Jinjee, or Glasstrax is not sold as a \"Bigga Giggas\" cd. We are certain of Jinjee\'s integrity. He is not a slight business acquaintance, but rather a full partner in Bigga Giggas.
It is unlikely that a true AO cd has source wavs on it that are identical to ours.It is sadly, possible, but not through any actions on our part. It is also possible for several other explanations to apply. Dishonesty on Jinjee\'s part is beyond question in our minds. We edited the original raw wav files from him. How would he steal the finished product and then provide us with raw wavs to edit? Something is definitely wrong here, but it is not with Jinjee\'s ethics.
John Thomas
Bigga Giggas USA

[Bigga Giggas USA]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
[B]Yes it is an original - not one from the \'newsgroups\' or whatever you\'re on about. Actually I have never seen AKAI sample CD\'s posted in newsgroups,

Dear Simon,
Since you\'ve never seen them I guess you have not visited the alts recently. What I\'m \"on about\" is the fact that files claiming to be AO have been posted and I\'m not at all certain that they are indeed true AO. You are apparently certain of your CD source, so this aspect becomes a non-issue.
I am simply searching for a logical explanation. If you will be so kind, I would very much like to receive a zip file with the same notename/same instrument from the AO and from Jinjee\'s Horns. Any single note from both with same notename. ..Obviously I would like the ones that you feel are identical....In this way I can then listen to what you are listening to.....
You can e-mail me glasstrax@aol.com or FTP to ftp@glasstrax.com/ and put it in the \"Incoming\" ....
Help me out here. I would very much like to hear for myself what all this is about.John Thomas
Bigga Giggas USA

[ursatz]

John Thomas,
I\'d be glad to email you about the web site; what\'s your email address? But there\'s nothing much to tell - it\'s just one of the many places on the web where people can set up their own web sites. This one is especially for people who want to test asp code, but for now I just used it to make the jpg accessible to the people talking in this thread. I\'ll be removing it shortly in any case, since it seems to have served its purpose. Once you have the two sets of wav files, you\'ll be able to judge with your own ears (and eyes). (I can email zips of the wav files if you\'d like, but it probably wouldn\'t be until tomorrow.)
I really don\'t know what\'s going on here - if you look at my first post in this thread, you\'ll see that I originally didn\'t want to believe the samples were the same. But once Nick pointed out the \"sectiony\" quality of the Jinjee samples, and I compared with AO horn section, there wasn\'t any more doubt.
I\'d really like to believe there\'s some kind of honest mistake behind all this, even if it\'s mine!! Let me know what I can do to help get to the bottom of this.

Bill Clark
wkcl@pacbell.net

Ah, I see that you put an ftp address in your most recent message. I\'ll upload the two .wavs that I made the screen capture from.

Done. AOD2.wav is D2 from Advanced Orchestra; JD3.wav is from Jinjee.



[This message has been edited by ursatz (edited 07-24-2000).]

[Simon Ravn]

As I wrote in my first post, I thought maybe part of Jinjee\'s Horns was licensed from AO, but it was not written anywhere on the info of the CD, so I was very surprised to find identical instruments on AO and JH. I really want to know what is going on here because neither Worra/Jinjee, Peter S. or the consumers can be satisfied with buying the same samples twice (even if it\'s just some of the samples that are the same). I can\'t really see a problem about this being in public - but maybe THIS forum is the wrong place. I just didn\'t know any other forums or newsgroups where I knew I would reach other people in the same boat.
And to Worra/Jinjee: Check out the trombone samples too. As I mentioned in an earlier post they TOO are identical. I don\'t know who\'s been ripping off who, I just know the samples are identical and want to know why and how.

Regards,
Simon

[donimon]

I tried to order Jinjee\'s Strings and Horns last night. Today I got a phone message that they are not able to ship the order because of a situation that has come up. Think it\'s related to this board? I think so. Damn, I really wanted them.

[Worra]

At approximately 5a.m. Pacific time of 07/24/00 Bigga Giggas received a formal
admission from Jinjee that not all wavs contained in his Horns cd were
originally recorded by him. He states that he received some wavs from an
Internet acquaintance who insisted that the wavs were in fact, his creation
and gave Jinjee permission to edit etc as he saw fit.

From the moment of this admission, our course has been
painful, but clear. We have been spending the day removing the product from
our Distributors\' active sales lists.

Like yourself, we have been misled by Jinjee\'s previous
affadavit to the effect that all wavs were his copywritable materials. Since
we can no longer be absolutely certain of anything regarding these creations
we have formally removed both Jinjee\'s Strings and Jinjee\'s Horns from the
market effective immediately. We will never allow any CDs to be sold if we
are not convinced of both their quality and their authentic origins.

This has already become one of the saddest days of my
life, as we have been genuinely friends with Jinjee and feel a great personal
loss at his admission.

John and I remain committed to creating an honest sample cd
for a fair price. We sincerely hope that you will judge us
by our reaction to this unfortunate incident and by the content of the other
Bigga Giggas cds not affected by this event.

Sincerely,
John Thomas Bigga Giggas U.S.A.
Per Larsson <worra> Bigga Giggas Europe

[PaPa Chalk]

Guys we\'ve just noticed the tail end of his topic and it\'s getting way off track. Although serious issues have been presented in this topic. This forum is not the place for this type of disscussion. To all parties involved please take these matters up amongst yourselves directly.

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/frown.gif

PaPa Chalk & Desound

[mitchb2]

This is DISGUSTING!
I agree with Worra and his colleagues: these are SERIOUS accusations, and SHOULD NOT be made publicly. It\'s almost as if some of you have nothing better to do.

This is an issue that should have been taken up privately (and it would have been resolved privately, I\'m sure).

As for Nick Phoenix. As someone who is in the business of creating and selling sample libraries, your behavior here is unforgivable and unprofessional. No WAY should you have been a part of this thread publicly. If you had suspicions to cast, you should have done so in private email directly to Worra.

I had my doubts about your integrity when you whined about some people not loving QL Brass. This just solidifies it.
I will never support any of your products after this.