Alto Sax demo

[donnie]

At the request of a few of you I decided to actually spend a little time and put together a better mixed demo using the Alto Sax.....I\'ve also included a link to the midi file because if there\'s a better sax using just the vibrato articulation (no stac\'s in there; just one articulation)...I want to hear it. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
http://www.dssoundware.com/sounds/ASAXJAZZ.mp3 (\"http://www.dssoundware.com/sounds/ASAXJAZZ.mp3\")

http://www.dssoundware.com/sounds/ASAXJAZZ.MID (\"http://www.dssoundware.com/sounds/ASAXJAZZ.MID\")

Instrumentation:

A Sax...........Big Fish
Piano...........Kips
Bass............Dan\'s
Perc..............Ours
Vibes.............Ultimate Vibes


[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 03-12-2002).]

[thesoundsmith]

Thanks, Donnie. Much better. I\'m going, just for the heck of it, to lay this MIDI track against Franz\'s VR alto, just to see what it sounds like. If the drums are GM mapped, so they\'ll track without a lot of extra work, and the musical parts match up reasonably with a GM set or equivalent, I\'ll try to post something for comparison.

If it doesn\'t work, for some reason, I\'ll post that fact instead. (This would imply MY problems, not something to do with yours...)

Dasher

[donnie]

Dasher,

WOW, your quick man! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I\'m not sure about that sax though....it was real general midish sounding. Did you add any reverb to it? Just wondering.....

Donnie

[Z6]

Listened to Donnie\'s and the VR demos at Dasher\'s site (nice site - nice music).

The attacks on Donnie\'s sax sound pretty impressive, but in the higher registers it sounds.. well, it kind of lacks some \'character\'. The VR attacks are slightly cheesier but the note evolution sounds more.. jazzy.

Donnie, did you use a classical player for this? It sounds very \'clean\'. The lower register is real nice.

The sax is a real toughie. I think if anyone can capture even a subset of a single player that would be an achievement. Best of luck with this. Anyone have any Xsample sax samples to share?

[donnie]

Z6,

Thanks for the comments....actually all the players used are legit \"jazzers\" but it really shows up in the softer vibrato patches. Most of the intruments include, NV, V, delayed V (which I love!), and various mutes with and without vibrato.

The thing I\'ve been struggling with is the attacks. With the \"air\" at the begining of them they sound really good but when you put them in a sequencer they get a bit sluggish which won\'t fly commercially. So I\'ve been having to do a LOT of experimenting to get it just right and preserve those good attacks.

Donnie

[thesoundsmith]

Donnie, I\'m here with the plumber reinitializing the pipes! Nothing to do-besides, you alreay did the hard part...

VR saxes have four basic sax sets plus an additional different-sounding set. I find it difficult to characterize because there are composite concepts grouped together in some of the sets.

The background saxes were done using Franz\'s alto_Ueber set. This is the only set that has looped parts for sustained notes, and only in certain velocity ranges. I added 33 to the original velocities, so each would play in the \'sustain note\' range, then added a CC#7 at 88 to back the volume down for balance.

This is the VR alto, remember, NOT Donnie\'s. I\'d like to hear his set with THIS sequence, for comparison. (That\'s what I thought I was doing originally.)

he lead was done with the \'Alto_vel_sel_4\' set, which I tend to find the most useful for lead work. Absolutely no processing except as described above.

This may be a good illustration of why you can\'t just take sequence X and plug itinto library Y. Minor attack articulations and time, different velocity switch points, and just the general feel change our playing styles. I have dozens of sequences written for the Roland SC-88 that sound like dog waste on GS. Replay the part and voila! It fits. But the timing and moves are slightly different. We compensate without thinking, but the computer cannot.

Dasher

[This message has been edited by thesoundsmith (edited 03-12-2002).]

[Bruce A. Richardson]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by donnie:


The thing I\'ve been struggling with is the attacks. With the \"air\" at the begining of them they sound really good but when you put them in a sequencer they get a bit sluggish which won\'t fly commercially. So I\'ve been having to do a LOT of experimenting to get it just right and preserve those good attacks.

Donnie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Donnie,

Have you plugged these into a wind controller yet to see how they respond? You might want to leave a set of \"airy\" attacks, because those really work well for wind controller freaks.

I like the fact that the tone is a bit on the \"straight\" side, because that leaves room for wind expression.

Are you using the Sample Start Offset (Mix/Layer tab) to eliminate air? That would allow the end user to dial some back in if they wanted it. Unfortunately, it only has a 2000 sample range, which is a really bizarre, arbitrary restriction. But then again, the entire editor is a giant bizarre, arbitrary restriction on many levels.
http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/tongue.gif

[KingIdiot]

Donnie,

Waht about keeping the attacks/air you cut off and putting htem into an exptra patch that you can use as a layer in a sequencer. This way you get a great sounding instrument by jsut playing, and then for anyone who wants extra breath you can copy the track in a sequencer and \"bump\" the whole track up a few ticks/milliseconds.

Thats not a major tweak, so anyone not using it live shouldn\'t have a problem with it.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[thesoundsmith]

King said what I was about to-sorta. The problem is, of course, that in performance that air delay is a pain. But if you can just change to a different patch and move the part earlier a few ticks, that\'d work for me - assuming the original patch was a solid, playable instrument.

We\'re counting on you, bud. Let us play.

Dasher

[Bruce A. Richardson]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by thesoundsmith:
King said what I was about to-sorta. The problem is, of course, that in performance that air delay is a pain. But if you can just change to a different patch and move the part earlier a few ticks, that\'d work for me - assuming the original patch was a solid, playable instrument.

We\'re counting on you, bud. Let us play.

Dasher<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don\'t know if the issue is that simple.

The player knows the air is a part of the attack, after all, it resulted from a direct physical action. Sax players tend to attack early and to place the point where the note actually \"speaks\" as an expressive gesture. So, anticipating the beat a bit may actually be a very natural-feeling thing.

If one were to actually performance model this for a wind controller, there would be a breath control dimension of **only** air at the bottom, then the softest \"speaking\" tone, on and on. As velocities got louder, there would be less air in the attack. By combining this layer of air and tone related to velocity, and using CC2 to crossfade from air into tone, one would always get **some** air as the pressure ramped up in the wind controller.

Not a perfect modeling, but this would be an interesting tangent to follow. I think some of the instrument design enhancements down the line might really open up some possibilities for wind programming. Wind controllers really help, but in some ways GOS responds better to wind controller input than most \"wind\" libraries. Getting a solo instrument to stay phase locked is almost impossible, so it\'s hard to get the timbral expressiveness that acoustic wind players take for granted.

It\'s interesting to me that one of the very most enjoyable sax samples to play is a little free one from Worra\'s site called \"Soft Tenor.\" It\'s looped, it has only one velocity, it has LFO vibrato, yet it feels really nice on a wind controller. It has a small amount of attack \"air,\" a nice compromise amount.

I like Nick\'s \"Ben Webster\" patch from QLB, but in terms of attack air, that one is right on the edge of my ability to anticipate the beat and feel like I\'m playing naturally. I\'d say that\'s about the most air-time you\'d want on attacks, otherwise it\'s like swimming in peanut butter. That one is fun to play, though. I wish it had a more extended range, I like it so much.

Gosh was that off topic or what...Good luck with your saxes Donnie.

[jubal]

Thanks donnie for the demo and including a possible list of instruments included with the alto sax!

Could you post a demo of the softer instrument and delayed vibrato. So far I\'m still partial to QLB sax because of the breath in it and it\'s delayed vibrato in the softer samples. The one your working on sounds like it\'s going to be sweet. Looking forward to it.

[thesoundsmith]

Hi, Donnie.

Interesting-the MIDI file os not the sequence for your demo. It\'s a be-boppish melody with rhythm section and three sax accompaniment.

I ran it through the VR saxes, made a few changes (had to change the rhythm section levels and section sax volumes to get it in balance, then I added some panning for the piano and BG saxes to spread them out and keep them out of the way.) I did nothing to the note data, there is no added processing of any kind, not ever \'verb.

The result is up at my site at http://www.thesoundsmith.com (\"http://www.thesoundsmith.com\") to listen to and comment on.

Dasher

[thesoundsmith]

[quote]
The player knows the air is a part of the attack, after all, it resulted from a direct physical action.
[\\quote]

Bruce, you\'re right (again...) My thought was to have set \'A\' with immediate attack. little to no air, then switch to set \'B\' with for example 70 ms air in front of the attack center and move the MIDI track 70 ms early.

But you\'re correct-the air portion of the tone would vary enormously, between expression, volume, attack, etc. Scratch another great-sounding but ultimately worthless idea.

I would assume a wind controller-optimized set would be quite different than a keyboard-cum-midi pedal/slider/aftertouch/mod wheel set.

But I still see the use of a MIDI Melodica that follows the strictures of a WindEx (our local saxman\'s generic label for the WX7, WX5-style controllers!)

[quote] Getting a solo instrument to stay phase locked is almost impossible [\\quote]

Sorry Bruce, I don\'t understand this statement. If it\'s solo, phase locked with what? Are you thinking of adding the wind as a separate controllable layer?

Not important, the rest of the post makes perfect sense. Just a senior moment on my part...

Still, Donnie, we\'re all looking forward to the library and further demos.

Dasher

[Bruce A. Richardson]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by thesoundsmith:
[quote]
[quote] Getting a solo instrument to stay phase locked is almost impossible [\\quote]

Sorry Bruce, I don\'t understand this statement. If it\'s solo, phase locked with what? Are you thinking of adding the wind as a separate controllable layer?
Dasher<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, for instance, if you assign the EXP instrument classes from GOS to respond to CC2 (they\'re programmed for CC1 out of the box), you get a continuous crossfade level between contiguous velocity layers. It\'s extremely expressive, since you get a realistic timbre shift. Since GOS is an ensemble strings library, a little phasing between disparate samples is unobtrusive. It could just as likely be a naturally occurring variation, so you don\'t perceive the change so much. A phased sound is the hallmark of string section timbre. A little more hurts nothing, actually even helps break things up a bit. Virtual layers created by different time juxtapositions take the curse off repeated notes.

With a solo library, there\'s no built in phasing to disguise the crossfade. You get an ensemble effect in the crossfade area, and your trick is revealed. You would only avoid it by having phase aligned waveforms assigned to the crossover regions. This is somewhat possible with certain instrument classes, but not very possible with a wind instrument, Changes of tone phase occur literally at the whim of the sampled player\'s breath and motion. You\'d almost need an Auto-tune like algorithm to keep phase matched over time with wind instruments. Something as simple as the horn shifting a few inches will result in a perceivable phase shift if it\'s superimposed over another sample. Horns don\'t sit still like pianos. That\'s why stereo horn libraries move around the soundstage so much. It happens in reality too, just tempered by its randomness. There\'s little chance that the same note at the same volume always lands in the exact same spot on the soundstage (which is not where any other note happens to land...).

That\'s the long explanation.