SOV and VoTA in the Movies [Archive]

KingIdiot

03-06-2002, 11:17 PM

Dream Wake.

SOV is all over stigmata. Armageddon sounds like SOV in places. The minority report trailer and Time MAchine TV spot sounds like VotA, but I\'m not sure if it is. It soudns liek the same piece thats in the Demo,a nd I think Nick did the music,.....but I think there are some real voices mixed in, or its a real choir. the horn and electronics sound a little better too.... Tho it could just be mastering.

Elfman does sound like he uses SoV alot, but also sounds like he uses real voices alot too.

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I\'m curious how Vocal PLanet is being/gonne be used. I haven\'t heard whats on that library so I\'d probably be ignorant if it was http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

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Really...I am an Idiot

dwdonehoo

03-06-2002, 11:47 PM

Oh man Thomas! If your own music is not distracting enough http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif, you had to go and show me E. S. Posthumus. This really is my kind of music. I love this genra (and over-the-top dramatic music). Very inspiring. Hey Jim, have these guys program you a drum demo! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Doyle W. Donehoo
Radar Music
http://www.sierra-trails.com/radarmusic_music.html (\"http://www.sierra-trails.com/radarmusic_music.html\")

esperlad

03-07-2002, 10:09 PM

Can anyone use VOTA in movie trailors? I was asked to use them in an upcoming trailor that I will score.

KingIdiot

03-07-2002, 10:16 PM

It specifically says that you CANNOT in the liscence for the library.

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Really...I am an Idiot

dwdonehoo

03-07-2002, 10:53 PM

\"It specifically says that you CANNOT in the liscence for the library.\"

Wha??? Then what is the point of buying them? It would be a waste of money. If that were true, off my shopping list they come! Better to get SOV. But...why? That seems insane...

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www.sierra-trails.com (\"http://www.sierra-trails.com\")

A_Sapp

03-07-2002, 10:57 PM

I hope that was somewhat of a typo because yea really, what\'s the point?

Chadwick

03-07-2002, 11:12 PM

King,

You ARE joking, aren\'t you?

As the guys have said, if we can\'t use it in our work - what\'s the point? Do we save it just for use in our own private after dinner music???

KingIdiot

03-07-2002, 11:19 PM

It\'s a waste of money....because you can\'t do Trailer music with it?

It says specifically that you aren\'t alloud to use it for Motion Picture *Advertising* .... Everything else is the same as usual.

I know Nick did this so he can keep from losing clients, since he does alot of trailers. I dont blame him for it. Its his real bread and butter.

Still, how many of us are doing Motion Picture *Trailers/TV Spots* specifically?

However it states that if you use the library in a Motion Picture itself and the music from the Picture is used in the add campaign. its the only way its permitted.

Now I\'ve got to ask, How does THIS specifically make it not worth while to pic up a choir library that sounds like IT sounds.

If you are scoring trailer music only, then you must be getting enough cash to hire some real singers to sing over SOV or ECC.

Tho wahtever...jsut means less people using a library and getting to sound like my stuff http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif MWAHAHAHAHA Maybe I should buy up ALL the stock of a library I like so No one can sound like me!!!!! MWAHAHAHA MWAHAHAHAHA MWAHAHAHA....<cue music> \"Evil.....Evil is is one and only....\" ok The lyrics are escaping me at this particular moment....

Oh look Its FAT BASTARD!! \"Get In MY BELLY!!!!\"

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Really...I am an Idiot

Nick Phoenix

03-08-2002, 02:00 AM

I recorded the choir for my trailer work. Thats actually why i screwed up and released it before it was ready. I edited it quickly and used it on a few bombastic trailers and was impressed, so I put it out there. Anyway its fixed now, but you can\'t use it for trailers. There are more reasons than just the obvious one.

Chadwick

03-08-2002, 05:43 AM

I\'m intrigued Nick.
What are the not-so-obvious reasons for excluding VOTA\'s use on movie trailers?
Don\'t get me wrong - as far as I\'m concerned, as long as people know before they buy it, I think the guy who develops a library should be able to put whatever price and usage limitations on it that he likes. If people don\'t like the conditions or price - they don\'t buy. Simple.

I mainly do music for TVCs and IDs, and I find it interesting to hear users mention that certain sample libraries can\'t be used in certain contexts - like video games. I\'ve never gotten around to finding out why these limitations are imposed.

Like I said - I\'m intrigued http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Chadwick (edited 03-08-2002).]

V-Groove

03-08-2002, 07:28 AM

Chadwick... That\'s how the men and boys are seperated.... The MO Money...The Mo Exclusive sounds....

If you release a Library let the guys use it, they paid for it!
It is like buying a Synth and saying to the purchaser, \"You can use it for your own pleasure, but don\'t you even think about using it on commercials,games and stuff.
they are taking away from our business as well.

Lance_M

03-08-2002, 09:12 AM

Well, I hate to say it, but I guess that no longer makes me a QL customer.

Dreamawake

03-08-2002, 09:17 AM

Now does this \"limitation\" apply to ALL QL libraries or just to VoTA?

03-08-2002, 10:15 AM

This is quite astonishing. Any lawyers on this forum?

I\'d like to hear if this can be tested. We should forget about watermarking and the old ball-and-chain \"insert my disks now or you\'re a scurvy sea dog\", and just go back to Nick sending customers a bus pass - go to his house, make your music, then play it to your granny.

Are you allowed to play it to your granny if she pays you with a nice cup of tea?

Surely this is a joke Nick? You can\'t have it both ways. Either keep it as your private collection (to snag jobs) or sell it. This is having your cake, eating it, then locking up the leftovers in the cupboard and calling the police every time one of your \'guests\' eats a piece he paid for.

This is a new low standard in standards. I cannot believe this could be enforced in a rational society. I don\'t remember you \'telling\' people about this? Surely, you know that it might be important to someone who paid for it because he thought he might be allowed to use it?

Any composers out there willing to test this?

If this kind of thing proliferates, it would be nice to have a section here devoted to license agreements, where we can study and discuss them before we fork out cash; who knows what\'s next?

King: you don\'t blame him for it? Then you are one helluva guy! To advertise wares here as if we were all just a bunch of pals while duplicitously forgetting to point out all of these important facts: \'Watermarking!\'; \'ball-and-chain!\'; \'Only to be used when not competing with me!\'.

As I\'ve said before; Nick can do whatever he likes, but I can\'t help feeling for the poor shmuck who doesn\'t frequent this board and then gets slapped with a law suit for what could have been his brightest moment.
Get real man. Make up your mind.

You stuff is great, but not great enough to survive these seemingly endless shenanigans.

03-08-2002, 12:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
[B]There are only about 10 or 15 guys doing trailers anyway. I notified most of them before the library came out. B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would have liked to be a fly on the wall when they got that message.

Anyway, when my multi-layer single velocity Stylophone library gets released, it will be available to everyone except Nick Pheonix. Let\'s see how you like it when everyone starts using the old Stylophone again and you\'re the only one without it.

When it starts to hurt your bank account, then you\'ll be sorry.

Hey man, you are one hell of a musician. Trust your abilities for goodness sake.

This is morally reprehensible. So you won\'t be going to the trailer-composers annual picnic this year, I take it?

You absolutely do have what it takes to make it big; all of the necessary traits required to make it in Hollywood are within you. (Sceptics might want to listen to some of Nick\'s stuff while reading his license agreements for proof of such.)

I hope you never ever have to meet any of these guys on the way back down.

Simon Ravn

03-08-2002, 02:58 PM

First of all - I am happy not to be a US resident in these matters, since I would be able to use VOTA as crazy as I\'d like in Europe http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Then... I think, as most others have pointed out, that you should WARN people about this. It is a bit like selling a car and dont tell people that you cant take it into 5th gear. I suggest you put up a webpage Nick - you should be able to afford that http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif - where we can read disclaimers for all your libraries, as well as issues regarding copy protections etc., so we don\'t buy stuff we\'ll regret. Also, I don\'t like your saint-like attitude. You\'re \'sharing\' these samples with us and \'it took into my scoring time\' and all the other blah-blah -- afterall your libraries are not the cheapest around with $500 pricetags for 3 cd\'s (VOTA). So stop acting like you\'re doing charity work for us here.

[This message has been edited by Simon Ravn (edited 03-08-2002).]

03-08-2002, 03:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
I suggest you put up a webpage Nick - you should be able to afford that http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif - where we can read disclaimers for all your libraries, as well as issues regarding copy protections etc., so we don\'t buy stuff we\'ll regret.
[This message has been edited by Simon Ravn (edited 03-08-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is going to be one fat-arsed web site. I never read a license agreement in my life -but I\'m about to start.

What if you live in the UK but do trailers for US movies? What if you live in the UK and do US movie trailers? What if you do a trailer for a movie made in the UAE with US money but only released in Afghanistan? What if you live in a trailer park and don\'t do trailers?

Do the other trailer-composers blow rasperries at you, then say you\'re the one who farted?

I don\'t think you\'ve thought this through thoroughly at all.

I want to thank you in advance for giving us the opportunity to share your work without all those other pesky trailer guys getting in on the act. It\'s about time somebody started limiting their rights. Who the hell do they think they are? You work all bloody day and night, and they think for a mere $500 they can just use it? Just like that?

Maybe you could do a deal with all the movie companies to only use your samples exclusively, then ban everyone from using them commercially: Nirvana eh?

You could be on to something. I think all bald people should only be allowed to eat the toffee part of snickers bars. We could restrict tall people from using escalators.

Hell, why don\'t we just get those trailer guys to wear little crescent moons or something, so we know who to poke fun of when we\'re layering consonants on vocal tracks?

Nick, you crack me up man.

Nick Phoenix

03-08-2002, 03:36 PM

Simon, What Saint like attitude? I never said I was just doing this for the common good, I said the opposite. I did it for myself and also released it to most of the public. Do you have any idea how many cool samples are in Hollywood that have never been released. All I said was that atleast the stuff is available. I was responding to Z6s post. I haven\'t had time for a website. All the info is on EAST WESTs website any way. Have you guys read some of the
other license agreements out there?
I am not a saint, nor claim to be one. There is nothing morally wrong WHATSOEVER!!!!! with selective licensing. It is done all the time. So, I ask you should I have kept the samples to myself?
Do you realize that many drum loop libraries have restrictions for use in a music library? So, if you score tv shows and the network retains ownership of the music and sticks it in their library(common practise), you are liable.I refuse to have VotA plastered into a hundred crappy trailer cues published by these large buissiness driven music library companies.

Didier Rachou

03-08-2002, 04:02 PM

Nick,

As an eagerly prospective and now apparently naïve buyer, does this mean I won\'t be able to compose any library cues with VoTA either?

C\'mon tell me just for laughs....... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Regards,
Didier

Nick Phoenix

03-08-2002, 04:49 PM

Thats fine. You can use it in a musical context in a music library. You just can\'t license it for motion picture ads in the US.

Franky

03-08-2002, 05:03 PM

All i\'m gonna say is, i\'m again restricting usage of a library, if you buy it you can use it , is my philosophy, again any developper has the right to restrict usage of his libraries, i just personally think it\'s wrong.
again it\'s every developper\'s choice, as long as the costumer is informed.

Franky.

[This message has been edited by Franky (edited 03-08-2002).]

KingIdiot

03-08-2002, 05:12 PM

Franky...

Perspective. A guitar library and producing pop bands....

letsee..3 million guitarists in the world (that will work for oregeno that looks like pot). a thousand \"producers\" and pop bands (that can\'t tell the difference between oregeno and pot)

A choir library and makign trailer music

less than 3 million choirs....and less than a thousand trailer music makers.....

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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 03-08-2002).]

Damon

03-08-2002, 05:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dreamawake:
Damon - is the cue you are talking about from SOV?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, the Agnus Dei are from SOV.

lex

03-08-2002, 05:38 PM

This is geting interesting...

I have one question, since so many people is sudenly excited about US movie trailers...
How many of you gys acctaulay does movie trailers? and which one did you do?
Personaly I didn\'t know that it is such a big field, how do you get a gig? what\'s the pay like? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

As for VOTA and Nick...in my opinion the only problem is that there is no info about this on soundonline...
But then again, is there a single soul here that has purchased VOTA, just finished a US trailer, and now is completly by this??

ALex

Tokyo Joe

03-08-2002, 06:10 PM

...

[This message has been edited by Tokyo Joe (edited 03-08-2002).]

jubal

03-08-2002, 06:25 PM

Once again...Nick Phoenix...public enemy #1.

This is ridiculous. Either buy the library or don\'t. I\'m sure if Nick loses more money from potential buyers not buying his library as opposed to losing money from competition in composing for trailers he won\'t do it again...but that\'s his choice.

I bought the library...liked a lot of things in it...and now he has an update coming out to fix the things I didn\'t like...and much more. I am a happy customer in this case. If I get people knocking on my door to do movie trailers...I don\'t think the lack of VotA will cramp my style. Now, Nick...send the update already http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif..looking forward to it.

[This message has been edited by jubal (edited 03-08-2002).]

03-08-2002, 06:37 PM

Hooray for Jubal!

Hey mate. I\'m making a movie called Trailer Trash and I need a guy to do a trailer for the trailer we\'re putting out on limited release in trailer parks.

I want choirs and lots of consonants and I want them now! Interested? There\'s a substantial fee involving milk and cookies on offer?

Nobody has any arguments at all about what is marketed. But I suspect people do want to know what they\'re really buying. That\'s all.

Both the \'ball and chain\' and the new \'Trailer Bar\' were revealed here by users long after Nick had written many interesting and informative descriptions of his wares.

jubal

03-08-2002, 07:10 PM

>> Hooray for Jubal!
Hooray!!..er...milk and cookies?..yes...I will help you with your \'Trailer Trash\' films...dude (i.e., mate).

>> Both the \'ball and chain\' and the new \'Trailer Bar\' were revealed here by users long after Nick had written many interesting and informative descriptions of his wares.

Which makes these latest rounds of posts so much more useful.

Chadwick

03-08-2002, 07:18 PM

Nick,

I have no problem with the minor limitation you put on the library. I think it\'s a great idea. You get to build the library, 99.9% of those who could afford it get to buy it, and you even went to the trouble of explaining the situation to the few guys who might feel disgruntled.

I think this situation is far preferrable to the three alternatives - no VOTA, VOTA for you only, VOTA for everyone (and your own library work manages to help lose you your real livelihood for the price of a few CDroms).

Good thinking.

Franky

03-08-2002, 09:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
Franky...

Perspective. A guitar library and producing pop bands....

letsee..3 million guitarists in the world (that will work for oregeno that looks like pot). a thousand \"producers\" and pop bands (that can\'t tell the difference between oregeno and pot)

A choir library and makign trailer music

less than 3 million choirs....and less than a thousand trailer music makers.....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First off it\'s called oregano not oregeno...
The Greeks used to call oregano \"delight of the mountains\" i guess they weren\'t smoking it... I suppose you\'re gonna tell me the trailer music makers can tell the difference between pot and oregano ?

Of course they can ... right King ?
Of course only guitarists and pop producers are idiots....

Anyways thanks for putting it all in \"perspective\" for me , god knows why should i be able too... I can\'t tell pot from oregano anyway... God knows, why should i not expect to be belittled and have what i do for a living demeaned in a forum for saying what i actually think ? what was i thinking... i should expect being made to be an idiot for not seeing eye to eye with everyone, I feel all warm and fuzzy inside now, thank you. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Franky.

[This message has been edited by Franky (edited 03-08-2002).]

esperlad

03-08-2002, 10:27 PM

Wow! It looks like I opened a can of worms! The reason I was checking this is because I was hired to write music for a low budget film, this project got me another job after the movie premiered. I have been asked to write music for trailors on both of these movies. The director for one of these projects wants me to use a choir. I guess I\'ll have to use another library. I also want to point out that these guys do not have the budget at this time to hire another composer. Thankfully, I can buy another library. I am glad that I have that luxary.

Anyone know when Yellow tools will issue their choir library?

JamesGrote

03-08-2002, 10:39 PM

I\'m going to have to side with freedom here. If you don\'t like a product or it\'s restrictions, don\'t buy it! If you think that your only chance of getting trailer work is by relying on VOTA (i.e. someone else\'s hard work), what\'s that say about you?

Use these amazing choirs, make great music, make a name for yourself, do cds, video games, whatever, and if you\'re well known and respected enough to get a big trailer job, you should by then be talented enough to record your own choir or buy other libraries. By sharing his custom sounds that get him great trailer jobs, you\'re in effect signing a non-compete clause since you have access to his knowledge and skills, i.e. the sounds he created.

If you want to do trailer work, don\'t buy this. That\'s the risk Nick\'s obviously willing to take, but there\'s no point in attacking the guy for making a reasonable business decision on his part.

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James Grote - http://www.BrainFeverMusic.com (\"http://www.BrainFeverMusic.com\")

Nick Phoenix

03-08-2002, 11:01 PM

Before this gets out of hand. This only applies to US motion picture advertising. I have a right to limit usage. Many sample libraries limit usage. There are only about 10 or 15 guys doing trailers anyway. I notified most of them before the library came out. The sample libraries seriously cut into my scoring time and I did the choir to get an edge over my trailer competition. Does that mean that the other 99% of the composers out there shouldn\'t be able to use the sounds??? Lighten up. I have been slowly amassing the most amazing collection of action beats. I don\'t want my trailer competition to have those either. Should I not release them to everyone else? Its not a matter of fairness. These are my sounds and the only way that I will continue to produce them is if I can continue working as a composer.
All the other QL libraries have normal liberal license agreements, by the way.

Nick Phoenix

03-08-2002, 11:08 PM

Z6, You make me laugh. I enjoy eating my cake and locking it up in the cupboard. The only difference is I am sharing my cake with just about everyone.

[This message has been edited by Nick Phoenix (edited 03-08-2002).]

KingIdiot

03-08-2002, 11:09 PM

Z6, You\'re right something like this should be Mentioned, since it is a significantly different type of restriction in the lscnese. As well as the Copy Protection.

Watermarking however, is becoming common practice. Much of the artwork you see oon the web is being watermarked now, I\'m sure its the same as audio on CDs/MP3.com/etc...

Whatever happened to the QLB homepage at ? There should be a page for the liscense there.

i honeslty can\'t remember if the liscense was different at the checkout page. It might be another thing to check.

I dont blame him, because its a small section of the music/work spectrum IMO. Not to mention it gives him an edge. It a buisness. ANOTHER point to consider is that maybe HE\'s not using it in Motion Picture advertising as well. Consdider the Minority Report trailer. It sounds like the same piece as in the VotA demo, but when you listen to it in the trailer it sounds like there are real voices. Could it be that maybe it was a restriction requestted by the choir? Maybe its good money for them too?

Chadwick about video games aned V-Groove about synths. Roland sues people who use their sounds from wavetable synths in DLS banks. for their games. Of course this is because DLS banks are like sound font banks and can easilly be converted to wave. HOwever Roland has put fear of being sued on a top of many Game Music Developers lists of things to look out for. I couldn\'t find any liscence on the sounds anywhere in the Roland Manuals, so I\'m not sure how they get away with it.

Speaking to developers on this issue its much the same, no mattter how downsampled edited and tweaked the sample is, they dont like it. Or are very uncomfortable with it.

Anyhow for me, since I dont do Movie trailers, it not a big issue, I have a feeling that if I read the liscence and found this out AND I WAS doing trailer that I could return the library soley on the fact that *I* wouldn\'t be able to use it. I dont think Nick is an azzhole so I\'m sure something could be worked out.

The library is the only one that sounds like it does, so I bought it based on that. Knowing all the \"issues\" that knock people about regarding it, if I had to choose again now, I would still buy it. It a usable library and is the only one that I can get that BIG sound from. How it can better the sound quality of my music is the most important thing.

BTW still haven\'t been asked to check for the CD

DreamWake,
only VotA as far as I know.

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Really...I am an Idiot

KingIdiot

03-08-2002, 11:24 PM

Actually...if you look at the post I called guitar players the idiots and the pop bands the idiots.

I consider pop producers the smart people, they know where the money is http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Please try and re read the post. I didn\'t mean to belittle you or what you do for a living.

As for perspective, I still believe there is a bigger difference between you limiting use of your guitar libraries from producers and Nick limiting to trailer music/library makers

Its not to say that your guitar library isn\'t needed, but that I see it being more difficult for a trailer music maker to hire a choir than say a producer to hire a guitar player.

Compound that with the fact that there are a lesser amount of trailer music makers, and Library music makers being the way to \"break in\" and possibly comprimise the \"integrity\" of the trade, it just starts to make a bigger difference IMO. (the quotes around integrity means it sup to your opinion of how much there is....ahem Z6... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif )

This isn\'t meant to belittle you but to say that to me its a bigger difference.

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Really...I am an Idiot

Damon

03-08-2002, 11:25 PM

Hey James,
Cool demos on your website http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif. I especially like the drum n bass. What pads are you using?

dwdonehoo

03-08-2002, 11:35 PM

\"The sample libraries seriously cut into my scoring time and I did the choir to get an edge over my trailer competition.\"

Nick, I deeply respect what you do and your VOTA: that demo just blew me away. Astounding work! But this restriction is very disturbing. I really think this is an issue of principle. OK, so I do not currently do trailers, but who knows what will come my way, no matter how unrealistic my expectations or aspirations? So I have to keep two libs on hand to cover my bases? This is great if you have deep pockets, but meanwhile I have to decide what ONE lib I will get. I have been saving up for VOTA, but now I have to seriously consider the financial and moral implications. You may have created this (great!) lib to get an edge, but you are also profiting by them, and that is where a limitation does not make sense. I abide with all my lib legal admonishments, I would NEVER boot copies or cheat the lib makers in any way, but this caveat seem too much. So when it comes time to buy, this will be a serious dilemma for me, morally and financially. VOTA has the edge, but bleeding nickers man....

OBTW, I am making a collection of giga synth lead samples/instruments I am creating for a game (True!), which I may release for profit, which anybody can use...except for games. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Franky

03-09-2002, 07:46 AM

King.... i never said a word about my library in my post.. all i did was put in perspective how it didn\'t make sense for me that developpers would withold usage of a library because they worked in a certain domain of music, and i also said it\'s every developpers right to do so.

All i did was state a personal opinion on a matter that concerns me. Did i sign my post with the Vintaudio Productions bla bla bla ?
No i didn\'t, because this is my personal opinion.

This has nothing to do with my library personally.
I find all limiting use of Sample Libraries wrong period, not mine not his, all of them....

Now this is what i stated in my post.
Your response was to put in \"perspective\" that i have a guitar library and that i do pop and describing guitarists and people in that industry has not knowing their feet from their asses.
It would\'ve maybe been funny if you\'d done the same for movie trailer makers, but you didn\'t.... you just pointed out how guitarists and pop industry people are so smart.

However small the niche of Movie trailer making, i still feel if you\'re putting a library out it should be available to all, regardless of the developper\'s music work, period.

I maybe understand your post was not made to ridicule me or my work King, but if you look at it from my perspective has stated above, maybe you\'ll understand why it pissed me off, specially when i was only stating my opinion on a subject.

Kindly and witholding any kind of grudge,
Franky. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Franky (edited 03-09-2002).]

KingIdiot

03-09-2002, 01:59 PM

It was funny to me, I \'m a guitar player and its like a \"drummer\" joke.

i dont know any Trailer music makers personally so who knows maybe they can\'t figure out their *** from their heads.

joke man Joke...

Never holding a grudge, but painfully realizing this forum is nort the place to evere joke...
-Ashif Hakik

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Really...I am an Idiot

Franky

03-09-2002, 02:22 PM

Indeed it may not be....

Franky.

JamesGrote

03-10-2002, 04:32 PM

Thanks Damon
Most come from a combination of the Korg 03R/W, Triton, and/or Distorted Reality 1 and 2, with various amounts of processing and manipulation.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Damon:
Hey James,
Cool demos on your website ;). I especially like the drum n bass. What pads are you using?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

------------------
James Grote - http://www.BrainFeverMusic.com (\"http://www.BrainFeverMusic.com\")

[This message has been edited by JamesGrote (edited 03-10-2002).]

Thomas_J

03-12-2002, 04:03 AM

I just wanted to say I totally understand where Nick is coming from and that he would like to reserve some rights with his product. The VoTA library sounds incredible and will be featured on many cues to come, no doubt about it. I don\'t think anyone here is composing music for a trailer, and if they are doing, they could probably afford to hire a choir for the occation (and maybe do some sampling of their own) - I say we leave this all behind and let Nick make the rules for his own libraries. I think Nick has been brave and generous to offer his unique sampling collections. Heck, I know I wouldn\'t let go of my custom samples. But I\'m sure Nick has a lot of tricks up his sleeve, and a lot of other costum samples that we\'ll never see in a library.

Nick, am I right that the \"trailer limitation\" is the only limitation of the VoTA library? if so I really don\'t see any problems at all.

Thomas

SOD213

03-12-2002, 09:48 AM

Couldn\'t someone get around this by making music for the trailer, and making sure that it was included on the soundtrack? (I don\'t have the license here at work, but I read it the other morning.)

Nick Phoenix

03-13-2002, 02:03 AM

Thomas. Thanks for the kind words. Yes, the trailer thing is the only real limitation.
SOD, Good luck! I\'ve scored a couple hundred trailers and have yet to make it onto any soundtrack.

RealJethro

03-14-2002, 08:49 AM

To Nick (or anybody who knows),

Is it permissible to use VotA to create music library tracks? If so, what if those tracks are used by a client in a trailer? Does that mean I get sued? Does the client get sued? Does the music library co. get sued? Or does the \"trailer restriction\" only apply directly to pieces of music specifically written for trailers?

Nick Phoenix

03-14-2002, 10:20 AM

You can use VotA in a music library. If your clients are in the habit of using your stuff without clearing it first, then you will need to clarify what can be used for what. Perhaps a clause *NOT FOR MOTION PICTURE ADVERTISING*

RealJethro

03-14-2002, 10:36 AM

Thanks for the reply, Nick. Let me follow-up with a few more specifics.

I may be composing a volume for a third-party music library on a work-for-hire basis. I don\'t think that any of the usages of their library will be used for trailers (aren\'t they mostly custom jobs..?), but I don\'t know for sure and have no control over its usage. That being the case, may I use VotA for work-for-hire libraries?

Nick Phoenix

03-14-2002, 12:14 PM

You have to let them know about the limitation. If you give them a bunch of choir cues, they will probably try to license them for trailers. so, they kneed to know.

RealJethro

03-14-2002, 03:11 PM

Nick -- Well, I don\'t think there is any way a music library company, with hundreds of titles, would willingly keep and adhere to the necessary records as to whom and for what purpose a piece may be licensed. What a nightmare. Imagine:

Me to the library company: \"Of all the volumes I\'ve done for you, you can\'t license this one for movie promotion.\"

Library company to distributor: \"Of all the hundreds of volumes of ours you distribute, you can\'t distribute this one to anybody for movie promotion.\"

Distributor to salesman: \"Of all the thousands of pieces you license, you can\'t license these to anybody for movie promotion.\"

Salesman to video production house: \"Of all the thousands of pieces available to you, you can\'t use these for movie promotion.\"

Video prod. house to client: \"Here are some awesome cues we can use for your project, but um, you\'re not doin\' any movie promotion, are you?\"

Then take the above scenario times a thousand. Realistic? Would anybody doing business tolerate that?

I understand that you don\'t want your wonderful VotA volume to be used by the few of your direct competition. But good heavens, at least structure the license as to not make the creation of non-competing libraries impossible! (And what about someone using some samples for a promotion of a student film..?) Otherwise you\'ll be losing sales, beginning with one right here.

What say ye?

Nick Phoenix

03-14-2002, 05:18 PM

I have little pity for some of these large library music companies, that take advantage of composers to make millions. I have a specific license agreement which hopefully will not be ignored. If the library music house cannot adhere to this agreement, then VotA cannot be used. I will lose a few customers and am sorry for any inconvenience.

Tokyo Joe

03-14-2002, 08:42 PM

How do you police such a clause?

Just curious.

tomhartman

03-14-2002, 09:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
It\'s a waste of money....because you can\'t do Trailer music with it?

It says specifically that you aren\'t alloud to use it for Motion Picture *Advertising* .... Everything else is the same as usual.

I know Nick did this so he can keep from losing clients, since he does alot of trailers. I dont blame him for it. Its his real bread and butter.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

His best bet on keeping clients is to do quality work, not worry about others doing quality work. He won\'t lose clients because someone else has voice samples. How ridiculous.

I bought the collection with great reserve after a mediocre experience with QL Brass for it\'s price---after learning of this kind of small mindedness, I won\'t make any more mistakes the size of Phoenix.

tomhartman

03-14-2002, 09:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
Before this gets out of hand. This only applies to US motion picture advertising. I have a right to limit usage. Many sample libraries limit usage. There are only about 10 or 15 guys doing trailers anyway. I notified most of them before the library came out. The sample libraries seriously cut into my scoring time and I did the choir to get an edge over my trailer competition. Does that mean that the other 99% of the composers out there shouldn\'t be able to use the sounds??? Lighten up. I have been slowly amassing the most amazing collection of action beats. I don\'t want my trailer competition to have those either. Should I not release them to everyone else? Its not a matter of fairness. These are my sounds and the only way that I will continue to produce them is if I can continue working as a composer.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It sounds like you need counseling more than customers. If your writing is up to speed and you are the flavor of the month, you will keep working. It will have nothing to do with what samples you use, or what samples other people use. Lighten up, indeed. You definitely have lost at least this customer.

clueless

03-14-2002, 10:07 PM

This has been a wonderful thread. I hope everyone appreciates the contrasts of freedom vs fairness, caveat emptor vs disclosure, and power vs weakness that posters brought out. Nick, of course, legally and ethically can restrict usage as he pleases. However, in as much as the restriction deviates from the market norm, he should go to extra measures to so inform potential customers. The informing process is not so much out of courtesy but to restrict purchasers to those more willing to abide by the rules -- limiting disgruntled customer problems.

The best thing is that I would guess someone is taking all this in and planning another \"choirs\" sample collection. Perhaps, this time with traditional licensing restrictions. That\'s the beauty of freemarket competition.

clueless

RealJethro

03-14-2002, 10:12 PM

I wholeheartedly agree with tomhartman -- it\'s your talent, not your tools that keeps the jobs coming in. Several years ago when Steve Stevens released his sampling CD, he was asked in an interview what he thought about \'everybody now being able to sound like SS.\' His answer was something to the effect of: \"Well, all the purchasers of this volume get is what I did on that one day in the studio. I will keep innovating -- there\'s no way anybody can \'capture\' me from a single sample volume.\"

I\'m sorry that I won\'t be purchasing this volume because of this strange licensing clause. But, I just heard today that Miroslav will be releasing an extensive vocal/choral library (with superior flexibility and quality they tell me) within a couple of months -- sans the restrictions.

Bring it on, Miro.

tomhartman

03-14-2002, 10:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by RealJethro:
I wholeheartedly agree with tomhartman -- it\'s your talent, not your tools that keeps the jobs coming in.

Bring it on, Miro.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What\'s ultimately the most flimsy part of the argument is this.....if Nick wanted a true head\'s up on the competition, he wouldn\'t release the library at all. He\'d be the only one that had it. Now that would be a true advantage. But he\'s saying that i\'t\'s oK if VOTA literally repopulates the earth, in the form of jingles, pop music, new age cues, adult contemporary, and movies and documentaries, TV stuff etc....so the sounds can be virtually EVERYWHERE. So how would this possibly mean he had an edge on anyone? Nick may be the nicest guy in the world, but he is thinking very small here. JMHO.

clueless

03-14-2002, 10:34 PM

It just occurred to me that license restrictions must abide by certain legal limitations. Here would be some illegal restrictions: \"not for use in rap music,\" \"cannot be used in music in support of the ____ political party,\" or naming specific composers that cannot use the library.

Those are pretty clear (I think). So where are the gray areas?

clueless

Nick Phoenix

03-15-2002, 02:00 PM

I find it amazing how some people talk so confidently about things they know nothing about. True, quality work is all that matters. But, things are not so straight forward in the trailer industry. Cues can EASILY get lost or overlooked, if there is a sea of similar inferior or superior stuff being catapulted at the trailer houses. Thats what I am trying to avoid with the choir.

Nick Phoenix

03-15-2002, 02:15 PM

Also, all the indirect threats of not being a Quantum Leap customer anymore, or buying some other SUPERIOR choir library are kind of childish. You guys can try to demonize me all you want. 99% of the composers out there will tell you that they are glad I released the library, even with the small restriction. Go and buy the Mirislav choir , if you want. I heard it at NAMM and it sounds nice. The reason that I am still releasing sample libraries is that I enjoy the challenge and need the sounds. But mostly, I am striving to be the best sample library developer out there. I have a chance at achieving that. I have little chance of being branded as the best composer out there.

03-15-2002, 03:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
I have little chance of being branded as the best composer out there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you can be the best damned trailer composer who uses VoTA!

Seriously Nick, I own one of your libraries and just love it, but even the demo for that library displays profound talent. You have to make a living in whatever way you see fit, and it\'s an incredibly cut-throat business you\'re in (hell, there\'s even a guy out there who won\'t let his competition play with his ball), but as for us mere mortals, we want to listen to great music, not just music by the best composer. Being the \'best\' isn\'t what it\'s about is it?

The only people who could even recognize or differentiate VoTA from the other libraries are \'some\' of the owners. When I listen to music or watch a movie I listen to the music; I don\'t interfere with my enjoyment by trying to work about which library it came from.

The people who will \'judge\' your music don\'t give a monkey\'s scrotum whether it\'s sampled, or what samples are used. And I don\'t believe that the guys who fork out the work (and your daily bread) give a hoot either.

You won\'t be the \'best\' samplist out there either because Garritan and Dean and Adamson and Miroslav and Scarbee and Kip and Michiel and Franky and Franz and Hans-Joseph and Donnie and many others are all producing wonderful work.

There is no \'best\' in this business. Owning the world\'s sharpest scalpel won\'t turn me into a brain surgeon (but I\'m will to have a go if anyone is suffering headaches).

If you write the absolute best stuff you can for every job you get, your music will get to see the light of day for a much wider audience. \"Inferior/superior/similar\" is a bunch of crap.

Best of luck. I look forward to seeing your name on a major motion picture (and maybe then you can end it with all these selective ownership issues).

Until then, understand that this is probably the most important issue a customer wants to hear about (not that I\'m about to write a trailer, but Nick, we can never know what you\'ll do next).

tomhartman

03-15-2002, 03:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
[B]I find it amazing how some people talk so confidently about things they know nothing about. True, quality work is all that matters. But, things are not so straight forward in the trailer industry./B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe the trailer \"industry\" is a very special beast. I can tell you that in writing music for advertising, documentaries, etc, you absolutely are not hired because you have great samples. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif In fact, the question I get more and more recently ) is....
\"Now, you ARE using real instruments...right?\" There is a huge backlash against sampled stuff out there by the big budget agencies. What they use in the trailer industry I have no idea. It seems like every trailer I\'ve ever heard is a variation on the same cue from Horner\'s ALIENS. as the ship door closes......

Nick Phoenix

03-15-2002, 06:41 PM

Good Points!

jubal

03-15-2002, 09:01 PM

Z6: There is no \'best\' in this business. Owning the world\'s sharpest scalpel won\'t turn me into a brain surgeon.

Once again Z, it\'s hard to argue with that logic http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Z6: Until then, understand that this is probably the most important issue a customer wants to hear about

wrong...well, except for your \"Trailer Trash\" trailer, having a playable library is probably more important

Z6: but Nick, we can never know what you\'ll do next...

perhaps another sample library? Just a guess.

dwdonehoo

03-15-2002, 09:01 PM

\"In fact, the question I get more and more recently ) is.... \"Now, you ARE using real instruments...right?\" There is a huge backlash against sampled stuff out there by the big budget agencies\"

If they had to ask...
This is really funny, because most all of those marketing types couldn\'t tell a live session recording from a midi session to save their lives. Only the pros have the ear. Think some agency drone could tell a VOTA or QLB number (done by someone really good) from real? Doubtful. In another year or two with the latest stuff? Impossible. IMHO.

tomhartman

03-15-2002, 09:21 PM

\"02 posted 03-15-2002 10:01 PM ÊÊÊ Ê ÊÊ ÊÊ
------------------------------------------------------------------------
\"In fact, the question I get more and more recently ) is.... \"Now, you ARE using real instruments...right?\" There is a huge backlash against sampled stuff out there by the big budget agencies\"

If they had to ask...
This is really funny, because most all of those marketing types couldn\'t tell a live session recording from a midi session to save their lives. Only the pros have the ear. Think some agency drone could tell a VOTA or QLB number (done by someone really good) from real? Doubtful. In another year or two with the latest stuff? Impossible. IMHO.\"

Oh no question. Agencies still call them \"synthesizers\" and associate all sampled tracks with a DX7 , I suppose. You can explain it all day, and they still say....\"OK...but we\'re getting REAL strings right?\"

midphase

03-20-2002, 04:00 PM

Not to drag this issue into the 3 pages -long world but...

I agree with Nick\'s right to place certain restrictions on his work but he needs to make sure that this is clearly stated and known to the potential purchaser.

doesn\'t address this issue at all in their comments about VOTA.

This is very troubling given the difficulty in returning sample libraries for a full refund. I feel that a short and concise statement on licensing restrictions should appear right from the getgo.