Something different

[donnie]

Recently I\'ve been reading ads in magazines and websites claiming that certain libraries are \"the new greatest thing\" or \"revolutionizing sampling as we know it\". Sean and I have never been ones to make statements like this and we generally just a chuckle of out them but I got to thinking about something today.

Some of these libraries in question (no I won\'t mention names) are using big name guys to do demos of their stuff that have been worked and reworked for several days, run through expensive outboard gear most on this forum will never see in real life, and have very good compositional skills.

I have always been a big believer in putting up raw, dry, unprocessed midi files that show what the library sounds like right out of the box. Heck I\'ve even posted a demo triggered with the mouse in GS?

For us it comes down to this....how playable is the library right out of the box? The test of a great library is not how many discs it is, what it was recorded with, or even who\'s endorsing it. It all boils down to HOW DOES IT PLAY!

So Sean and I have decided to take a little unorthodox approach to proove a point. Most developers have contests to see who can come up with the most realistic demo using their sounds which is a cool idea. But we want to turn the tables a bit. I would like to see who can make the most UNrealistic demo using any of our libraries. In other words try to convice me that it\'s not a live player. The only criteria is that is must be actually playable by a human...thats it.....

Anxious to \"hear\" back on this.

DS Soundware

[jubal]

donnie,

do you mean like using the mouse to control the melody and stuff like that? Anything to make it sound NOT like a live player?

Instead of a prize, does the winner have to pay you http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif?

interesting.......

[donnie]

HA! Good one....yeah I agree though...there should be some sort of prize...how about a free patch from one of our soon to be released libraries. I\'ll give a list for the winner to pick from.

Hows that?

Donnie

[KingIdiot]

Donnie,

Dont take this the wrong way,

I think Percussion is easier to get realistic performances out of a sample than say Horns. Its also harder to get to sound fake....yes when recorded well....

Still when a horn is recorded well its still much easier to get it to sound fake.

I\'m jsut trying to put into perspective why it may be more difficult to get LOP or UOP to sound bad. not saying that its not a great library./ I only have LOP to go off of, and I think its pretty fantastic, but you have to admit its way easier to get say a well developed string library or a well developed choir library to sound false.


now if I needed to I\'d play crecendo nsare rolls at 8th note intervals withthe same velocities...should sound fake. or 16th note timps one hand only at forte http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

crotales fast maybe? finger cymbals...yah those woul be easier to make sound fake....

Granted it would all still sound pretty good....well except the crecendos http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif


Sometimes revolutionary is partly the way its programmed, and what you\'re able to coax out of samples in a performance in terms of expressiveness. Which is why I like VotA and GOS so much. ad why I\'m excited to hear the new updates for VotA.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 03-05-2002).]

[Simon Ravn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by donnie:
Recently I\'ve been reading ads in magazines and websites claiming that certain libraries are \"the new greatest thing\" or \"revolutionizing sampling as we know it\". Sean and I have never been ones to make statements like this and we generally just a chuckle of out them but I got to thinking about something today.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That´s right. You just call your libraries names like \"Ultimate Timpani\" and \"Ultimate Orchestral Percussion\".

[Franky]

lol ! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Rabid]

As a customer I prefer totally unprocessed demos. I also want the developer to show me all the how much control I will have over the samples as given by stock patches. If I can make a sax growl by using the mod wheel, then demonstrate. If you have to fake a growl by recording two parts on two separate midi channels and fading between the two mixes, don\'t make the demo so that it insinuates real time control. If after purchasing a set I feel that I have been tricked or mislead, I will be an unhappy and probably a non-returning customer. If you are honest up front, tell me what effects bring out the best in the sample collection, or suggest methods of creating realistic parts then I am a happy customer.

Robert

[David Abraham]

I\'ve never been one to make purchases based on what sounds \"real\", rather it has to sound \"good\". I can get a \"real\" sounding orchestra down the street at a local high school and it will still sound like dookie.

-david abraham

[ryounger]

Hey Donnie!
The way that I would approach this idea is by taking a beginning band arranging book and totally break every rule about instrument range and intonation. a good example of this would be to play a G bellow middle C on a soprano flute, or play a C two octaves above middle C at triple forte on an oboe.

Just a thought

Russ


[This message has been edited by ryounger (edited 03-05-2002).]

[donnie]

Ok I totally disagree with the mentatality of \"well, percussion is easy to do\". If that were so DS Soundware would of never been created.

Try this....take a snare drum, xylophone, glock, bass drum, or anything percussion excerpt and play it with our sounds and then play it with AO, Miroslav, or anything else. It\'s the difference between real and fake everytime.


Donnie

[KingIdiot]

Yup I figured you\'d take it thr wrong way.

I never said Percussion was easy to do, but easier to get realistic performances out of.

Especially compared to Expressive melodic in struments like Horns and Voices and Strings or Guitar...etc.

I even went so far to state that when recorded well...insinuating that yours is recorded well...which IT IS,...that it makes is much more difficult....but even that well recorded Horns are by FAR easier to get to sound fake.


So take it as a compliment that you did your job very well, but I\'m jsut trying to give some perspective on sampling percussion compared to some other types of instruments. I never said it was easy to sample percussion, jsut that its harder coax out realistic results with other types of instruments.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 03-05-2002).]

[thesoundsmith]

I would think the \'fairest\' way to do this would be to create a single track MIDI file that would be the \'standard\' sequence to test specific libraries.

If I understand the drill (and I hope I do, because it\'s EXACTLY what I want to hear before I lay down my bucks) you want a sequence to demonstrate the plain, simple \'raw\' sample set. No multi-tracks, no processing, no funny stuff.

Then you would want a sequence that did NOT extend beyond the boundaries of the natural instrument, and perhaps covered the common controls (here is a three octave C scale straight, then played with Mod Wheel set to 50%, here is the same scale using CCx - which has some specified function in that patch. Here is the same note played increasing the velocity by 10 each time, to show the dynamics. Etc.)

That would show the quality of the instrument without imposing the quality of the performer. Although, I would like to hear the same patch with a good-to-great player doing his/her thing.

Let me know if you\'d like a concept file for the dull-but-repeatable set. It wouldn\'t take very long, providing I know the range and articulation information.

Dasher

[fmfgs]

Hi Donnie
Congratulations - You got the basic idea of marketing - most important is that people talk about your products. Your idea of doing the worst with your products is imho more suitable for washing powder then samples - you might offend people who spend half there time to make sample performances sound real.
Anyhow, im looking forward to your next original idea to bring up your stuff...
fmfgs

[nigel]

Why not?

But I think you had too much wine that day!


Fender Strat.
...Jimi comes into the music shop and plays
a few chords and...there\'s a mess on the floor!

Fender Strat.
...the butchers son comes in and strums the same strat. ...even the rats are leaving and
thinking about becoming accountants.

like the original thought,though.

Love the librarys you keep selling me
and and making me feel inadiquate...in add E cat...
enquaticat...
oh shhit... waht happened to spelll check?

[donnie]

Hey guys I think your missing what I was really getting at.....First I\'m not offended by anything that anyone has said on this thread at all. Secondly, I just thought it would be different since we all try to make sample libraries sound real to see if someone could make one of our libraries NOT sound real. Yeah, I know it\'s kind\'ve \"ballzy\" but hey, I\'m \"ballzy\" so what can I say? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Think about how many developers would come on a forum and say \"lets see who can make my samples sound the least real\"?

Take this thread with some fun!

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Donnie

[Aaron Levitz]

The high quality of these samples is still easy enough to overcome; you just need to see past your better instincts.

You can start with some heavy NFX Reverb, Chorus, and EQ to make each note scream \"Amateur Recording.\" From there, you simply treat Donnie\'s orchestral percussion as a rock drumset. And use a really low bitrate when encoding to mp3, unless you find that masks away problems.

One of these days, I will own Donnie\'s libraries (the <a href=http://www.gdconf.com>Game Developer\'s Conference</a> devoured my credit card), and you won\'t need a contest to get some truly hideous demos out of me... =)