If you wanted a Heavy Metal guitar library, what would you need in it? [Archive]

KingIdiot

03-04-2002, 10:46 PM

At some point I want to do a Heavy Guitar library. I have some cool ideas and am wondering about what people looking for this type of library would want.

It of course wouldn\'t be completely and utterly versatile in terms of voicings since I plan on makign atleast part of it distorted for an out of the box experience (I have ideas for a non distorted library that could blow minds but will take more time)

Anyhow, would one specific tone work? or should I really consider multiple tones?

What kind of things do you think are missing from current libraries. What would you want to be able to achieve. I may stay away from making it a library that focuses on expressive soloing. I think there are a few libraries that can get you there already, not to mention the amount of work it would be,but rhythmic chugs and more typical Heavy guitar playing is missing IMO and I think I can get somethign going that can work well.

What bands should I be listening to so I can emulate style, and tone (two different things make sure to ehlp me differentiate what oyu like)

Anyhow,m dont expect this library to be out anytime soon. I\'m busy on a project that will take me into June, but hopefully sometime after that I can start on it.

If you guys can\'t wait that long, then possibly the ideas will be out for another devloper to make one. There is one being made isn\'t there?

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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 03-04-2002).]

Munsie

03-04-2002, 11:42 PM

Hi King!

I wonder how much you would charge to make me a custom library? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif))))

I\'ve got leads covered. The libraries I have allow me to create realistic leads. The only area still suffering is the power single notes, power chords, power strums, mutes, etc.

Reference material:

Judas Priest \"You got another thing coming.\" - single/bar chord strumming with longer sustained chords.

Fuel \"The Last Time\" - full power chords.

Godsmack \"Alive\" - Full power chords, sustained, plus good power single notes!

Metallica \"Enter SandMan\" Another good example of strums and chords.

You know what would be REALLY cool, is if the rythm libraries were in stereo, but the left and right channel samples were two different sessions (hard panned), slightly delayed in timing and eq, to give the effect of two guitar players, actually it would be two guitar players!

KingIdiot

03-04-2002, 11:57 PM

Dammit Munz..

tahts one of my \"cool ideas\" http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

in fact I\'m going further to put in Mono versions of each channel so you can play them indipentantly and then a stereo version with each mono placed in a dual mono file for each side.

i\'m also thinkng of doing \"mimic\" samples that mimic playing styles and tones of popular songs. Mostly focusing on chugs and single notes for rhythm...or rhythms in a similar style that I\'m trying to mimic. This may include more than jsut 2 guitars but possibly up to four or more to get a single tone.

soudns like
Like Randy Rhodes-Crazy Train

John Petrucci/DT-Caught in a Web

Metallica-Enter Sandman/Sad But True

I was thinking Early can halen, but I\'m not sure...jsut because I may not be able to get that tone perfectly... tho I doubt any of them will be perfect... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 03-05-2002).]

Munsie

03-05-2002, 12:26 AM

<Dammit Munz.. tahts one of my \"cool ideas\">

You should have known we\'d be on the same wave length on this one... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

<in fact I\'m going further to put in Mono versions of each channel so you can play them indipentantly and then a stereo version with each mono placed in a dual mono file for each side.>

Yes, this is cool. Defintely would kick the realism factor up a notch. FAT SOUND!!!

<i\'m also thinkng of doing \"mimic\" samples that mimic playing styles and tones of popular songs. Mostly focusing on chugs and single notes for rhythm...or rhythms in a similar style that I\'m trying to mimic. This may include more than jsut 2 guitars but possibly up to four or more to get a single tone.>

For sure, when I listen closely to rock music in the studio, they are obviously overlaying a few sessions, especially on the rythm tracks. and I think that\'s the reason the present libraries lack realism, out of the box. Granted, lately I\'ve learned to layer different libraries together, not quantize as much on certain layers, etc. It does help, but your idea is the way to go.

Another option is fret noise/scrapes when a key is released. It would be cool to be able to control the direction of fret noise, going up if going to a higher note, going down if going to a lower note. This is obviously another very important key to getting a realistic sound.

Randy Rhodes-Crazy Train, cool sound, but I never really liked his rhtym sound too much. I prefer the fuller sounding chords of todays rock groups.

John Petrucci/DT-Caught in a Web, I don\'t know the guys name but if this is Dream Theater then a big yes!

Metallica-Enter Sandman/Sad But True, this is a good tone. That whole album sounded really good.

Early Van Halen, as far as single notes, leads, yes, but I have NEVER been a fan of his somewhat thin sounding chord strums.

Since you are a guitar player, I think it would be a breeze to lay down a 2 octave bar chord rythm patch. Just as an example how easy it would be to blow away what\'s already out there as far as power bar chords go. Perhaps 4 velocities per note, starting from a power mute to a full sustained chord (no loops just about a 5 sec sustain). And while you\'re at it, throw in another 2 octaves, for the other stroke. (up and down), Don\'t forget a copy of the same patch but this time with the release noise thrown in, direction controlled by the mod wheel ofcourse. I need it by this weekend, bill me! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

KingIdiot

03-05-2002, 12:32 AM

HAHAHA

yah we\'re on the same wavelength...

I\'ve got one better for release triggers. Different ideas

pull offs....hammerons...palm mute stops

Its all there man, but most likely not with every tone....thats jsut too much work...

I dont like Rhodes or Van halen Rhythm tone either...but I think it may be usable to some people

yes Dream Theater....the album awake has some of my favorite heavy guitar tone.

I also want to get some of the \"pop/industrial\" sounds. Some NIN from Broken, and Marylin Manson, some KMFDM, but that sounds like metallica anyway

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Really...I am an Idiot

SCARBEE

03-05-2002, 01:17 AM

Ahrrrr!! You are teasing me now with all your guitar discussions! I myself can\'t wait to dig into the Strat.... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Cheers

Scarbee

KingIdiot

03-05-2002, 01:37 AM

hehheh...

and who was the one asking for more discussion?

Munz would it be intrusive to you to have chug programs that were programmed to work with different tempo variations? Say one thats good for 70-100bpm 16ths, and one thats good for 100-120bpm...etc. Tuned programs...so to speak. This might mean more samples. Tho not much more space....still. Is it intrusive?

How low would you want the lowest note to be?

I\'m thinking the low B on my seven should be enough....but is A really needed? ( I dont wantt o go out of my way to set up the guitar to play in A) I may do some \"dropped D\" chords on a fixed bridge so I can get the A on that I guess.

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Really...I am an Idiot

MUSICMAN

03-05-2002, 02:51 AM

King
Perfect, go go go go for it. A good heavy metal library is what i always
wanted to see for gigasampler.

I think that the rythm part is the most important issue to deal with
when makeing this kind of library. Heavy emphasis should be put on
the chugs, mutes, slides and powerchords i think. Here we talk about several vel. layers(hehe.. i hope http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif ).
In addition to this, a selection of fx such as divebombs, scrapes etc. would
be welcomed, but this should not be the main priority.

I like the idea of a playable distorted sound right out of the box. This seems to be
a huge job tho if it`s to work properly.

I suggest you take a listen to Judas Priest, maby even some Slade stuff, it`s great.
Bouth these band has put a high emphasis om the rythm. There are of course several
other bands out there who can really inspire you in terms of things to do in a
library like this. The thing is i think, that you should not try to cover too mutch
regarding styles, fx and so.. The few things you do tho, do them to the absolute
highest standards possible.

What kind of guitar are you planning to use? If you do distorted sounds, what kind of
distortion are we talking about? I would like to see the use of a guitar with humbucker
pickups for that fat beefy sound.

Again, i am very pleased to see that you are planning to do this library. I can`t wait
to eventually hear the results and try one out myselves. Yes, i know i have to be patient..
hehe http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif You know, i dont mind waiting several months or even over a year. This well might be
the library i`m looking for.

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......... regards :)

KingIdiot

03-05-2002, 03:09 AM

I\'\'m planning on samplign several guitars.

My main axe is a 89/90 Ibanez 7-string universe. One of the first types when Vai was making them with Ibanez I believe.

I\'ve friend with a relaly nice PRS and a Les Paul Custom that I plan on doing some Dropped D tuning with.

I\'d like to do multiple velocity but it may get cumberesome doing too many and may not be worth it at high distortion levels. Maybe more variations/samples of attacks.

Actually i do have an out there idea....

hmmm

I\'ll test some theories out. Tho I really didn\'t want to get into the crazy sound design stuff until later when I had the time to do a \"clean\" version of the 7 string...

Dammit Scarbee!... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I\'ve got this pretty amazing idea, I thought it was only going to be limited to the clean guitar, but it may actually be something I can work into a distorted library....

I wanted to keep this one more \"simple\" grrr hopefully the idea doesn\'t work that well http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

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Really...I am an Idiot

JoelS

03-05-2002, 03:44 AM

Hi King,

I\'ve long wanted a -really- heavy sounding metal rhythm guitar library that has enough articulations to be useful. I\'ve had Zimmer guitars Vol.1 for a while now, and though it has a couple heavier patches... they\'re far from being useful in making actual metal, and really lack versatility in general.

I would be fine with a new library having distortion right out of the box, provided its a sufficiently hard tone.

One thing I definitely would want is power chord slide up/downs. I\'m sure you already thought of that, but its something that really is necessary for a good heavy rhythm section. Taking Metallica as an example, they use slides a good bit... Several of the riffs from Master of Puppets (the song) use them, for example. Listen at :25 and later in the riff that starts at :52 . I have to bust out my guitar and play a part myself if I want a sound approximating that. Even if you only did a few common power chord slides it would be quite useful.

Im glad you mentioned hammer-ons/pull-offs. A nice selection of those would be helpful.

I think I\'d also want to have multiple varient downstroke samples for the same power chord. You wouldn\'t have to do it all over the fretboard, but say, for an E5 (the staple of many a metal song) it would be great to have at least two samples to alternate (ala Maestro Tools) so the sound isn\'t so mechanically repetitve on fast passages. Maybe even use velocity layers to house a few different samples (but not actually different velocity levels, just alternate samples) for variety\'s sake, if that makes any sense. Not to dwell on Metallica, but Hetfield always loved blasting downstrokes on the low E (none of those wimpy upstrokes needed!). It would be preferable to have some variety there if one wanted to recreate such a performance. Hm, I suppose fast sequenced power chord runs would probably sound better if the samples were clean with distortion added after the fact as opposed to pre-distorted... I can\'t say for sure though.

Maybe I\'m a bit predisposed to dislike chugging loops since the ones in Zimmer aren\'t all that useful. I guess if a library had good variety in the styles used it would be allright, but I think I\'d rather sequence my own riffs.

Another articulation I\'d like to see is really super fast tremolo picking on the upper registers. That technique is used throughout a ton of black metal and other european styles (like Swedish melodic death metal). Definitely don\'t have any way to get that sound currently short of playing it myself. For an example right off the top of my head, listen to the title track off \'The Somberlain\' by Dissection, if you can find it... Or practically anything by Immortal will have some, like \'Withstand the Fall of Time\' off \'Heart of Winter\'.

As for listening recommendations (albums with a representative song in quotes):

Testament- The Gathering: \"DNR (Do Not Ressuscitate)\" a great example of super fast heavy metal that has a reasonably clear guitar tone. If I had a library that could emulate that sound...

Meshuggah- Chaosphere: \"New Millenium Cyanide Christ\" some of the most intense metal ever, with crazy time changes and a really unique etxra heavy sound. If I had a libray that sounded like their guitars and the Drumkit from Hell (and a warped sense of timing), I\'d have a Meshuggah Construction Kit!

Children of Bodom- Follow the Reaper: \"Children of Decadence\" A really crisp and clear rhythm guitar sound thats quite distinct even in the fastest passages.

Anyhow, I hope this long winded post was of some value. I\'ll be eager to hear what you eventually come up with in regards to a metal guitar library!

KingIdiot

03-05-2002, 04:24 AM

Joel thanks for the suggestions in terms of bands.

I wouldn\'t have considered the faster speed metal/melodic black metal stuff, but now its in my head. I ahve idea that would very well emulate this time of stuff and still give you control of tempo.

I\'m currently thinkng that velocity levels are of less important with this library. HAving them is a plus, but the focus is on the repetative strikes of the same notes. and having the aggressive Chug/chunks.

I\'m considering up to 8 variations of every chug strike, both for up and down. Same with general noteless/chordless rakes/chugs

Its almsot like 2 velocities would be over kill for stuff like this. Tho I guess I could have a soft and Hard version of the muted chugs and only hard open versions.

\'I\'ld liek to give the variations in all keys not jsut E or D because I want those to be able to be played in any key.

I\'ve considered variations of instruments that switch out \"hand positions\" via mod wheel or keyswitch, that affect what sample is assigned to what note. Tho again I wonder if its overkill

I dont thin this librry needs to be something that is the end all giving every note every which way....

I will do power chord slides, halftone and whole tone most likely, and generic full octave powerchord slides at two speeds. If you think there needs to be more tell me.

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Really...I am an Idiot

Rabid

03-05-2002, 04:43 AM

A multi-layer heavy lead patch that uses the modulation wheel to apply controlled feedback. In addition, maybe use a foot controller to fade in a low rumble.

Robert

SOD213

03-05-2002, 10:07 AM

King, hopefully I can get rolling on my heavy guitar library as well, perhaps some competition will get me moving faster. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
So far, I\'ve yet to be convinced by a guitar library, although some of the demos of QL56 sounded pretty good. I just didn\'t hear it getting as heavy as I needed it though. I think I will do some clean patches, and then distorted patches with the Marshall and Mesa Boogie emulations on the V-Amp or POD. I might also do some backing bass work with the Bass POD.

I do think you should detune the 7. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif I planned on sampling my 7 at B and A, and my 6 string at E, D, C, and B. Yes, a multiple CD set, or even maybe a DVD or two.

JoelS, thanks for suggesting melodic death/black metal. I didn\'t want to be the only one suggesting it, and then people asking for a definition. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif Lot of interesting guitar work on Immortal\'s Damned In Black, I also like a few of the speedy parts on Dimmu Borgir\'s Puritanical Euphoric Misanthropia album. (Also King, check out the first track on that album, done by a real orchestra, think it could be done with GOS? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif I watched the keyboardist play it by hand the other night, only took him two keyboards, and it was pretty good sounding for Korg sounds. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif )

I\'m primarily a guitarist, so I think that\'s where I notice the lack of what I need. I do enjoy taking midi files of songs and running them through Giga and using strings and horns and timpani and such to make them orchestralesque. (That\'s a new word.) I\'ve even recorded two Dimmu Borgir songs and added them to my Winamp playlist.

dwdonehoo

03-05-2002, 12:08 PM

Just wondering. I was in GC the other day and a guitarist was playing through a, what?, a Vox? (Sure looked like one) that had an amp simulator built in. (Hey, I want all possible power chords played through all the popular amps! Yeah, right. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif ) But I was wondering. Is there an amp simulator plug-in that could turn a clean undistorted guitar chord into a power chord? This may seem OT, but it seems to me it would be easier to come up with a clean set of chords that could be run through a plug-in, as long as the results were \"real\". Just a thought.

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DWDonehoo
www.sierra-trails.com (\"http://www.sierra-trails.com\")

KingIdiot

03-05-2002, 01:21 PM

Rabid,

I\'ve thought about controlable feeddback for a while, and the only one idea that I every could think of was with a \"Dry\" guitar with post effect distortion/amp simulation

Trying to do it with realtime control with distortion already is more difficult, but some satisfactory results could be made with release triggers and good sample editing. Not sure if I\'m up to dedicating hte amount of tiem to get that one perfect with out a team of editors tho. I mean I could climb a mt everest...but it could kill me too http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Anyhhow, it may not sound as good as a dry guitar with post effects as well.

SOD,

yah I thought it was you that was doing one. Sounds like you may be going for a lot of bases as well. I may stay away form too many dynamics and focus on styles. I\'ll have to test instrumetns as I go and find what works and whats needed and what an go. This wont be a \"hey I\'ll sample a guitar at multiple dynamics and program and instrument\" thing. I\'m thinking of makign it more of a workhorse/toolkit library.

DWD,

Yes there are plug ins that act as Amp Simulators. Alien Connections Revalver is one. Cakewalk\'s FX2 has one. Line 6 Amp Farm for Protools is a plug in versio of POD Amp Sim. I have the POD outboard unit and its quite useful. I also have a Sansamp PSA-1 which also has great soundss as a pre amp but needs to have speaker simulation applied afterwards.

I personally want to stay away form clean guitars that need to be post processed for this particular libraryu. I think in the future its one I want to do, but I want to develope some specific sound design techniques to make the library more playable and calibrated than any availiable library. This will take time and I\'d rather get some workable heavy guitar tones out there that can be used in productions pretty quickly.

The really expressive and controlable stuff comes from instruments that you post process with FX/Distortion. In this case, since I\'m goign for a \"Basic\" (in my eyes..and if anyone knows me...its still in depth), it wont have everything,a nd guitar players will find limitations especially in the solo realm, but for \"hold the fort down\" rhythm it should be more than enough.

Also another thing about current \"Dry\" libraries. They all sound very good, but aren\'t calibrated for \"heavy metal\" guitar playing. Which is why some are craving \"out of the box experiences\" I personally think that a dry library would be the ultimate in flexibility. But until Revalver comes out for GigaStudio NFx....It may be more counterproductive for this style of music.

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Really...I am an Idiot

Munsie

03-06-2002, 12:18 AM

King,

Please email me. I have a few questions for you. I hope you have my email address still, I lost yours. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

SyQuEsT

03-06-2002, 12:40 AM

Why not a good lead guitare ?

KingIdiot

03-06-2002, 02:41 AM

I have it somewherne wil Email you Minz

Syquest

well for me Solo and rhythm deserve different tones....not to mention different playing styles..

At some point I\'d like to do a good havy metal solo library but I think rhythm focus is importan t now, with tones out of the box for rhythm

most solos can be covered dry with Vint Audio and QLB from waht I hear in demos

If I do a processed Library fro solos it will be VERY limiting

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Really...I am an Idiot

MrArkadine

03-06-2002, 04:20 PM

Hey King,

You\'re brave man...There obviously seems to be a void in sampling on this department, so if you\'re successful coming up with something very usable (no doubt you will), you should see some very nice demmand for your library.

I\'m sure I\'m not the most adequate person to give advice on this for many reasons, but let me see if I come with some ideas...

First, if you\'re going to record an undistorted and distorted versions of each sample, would it be possible to run an electrical guitar output to an amp or a breakout box with different outs, and then run each one through a different effects unit and into your recording gear so that you would save time, and the library comes out more consistent instead of recording each version separately?

Also, I think that the most important idea to make an electrical guitar playable would be to be able to translate most combinations of chords/riffs into nice keymapped samples, to provide for a great ammount of playing themes or techniques. For example, left area of keyboard for one type of riff, another for the conclussion riff (Like TaTa, TaTa, Tata, Tata TataTAAAAATAAAAAA). Kind of making things modular, instead of sampling the whole phrase, because then you can combine and the library becomes more versatile.

I\'m sure that what I just said must be very moronic, so I apologize if I\'m insulting your intelligence, and the rest of the people\'s too. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif

By any means, you\'re doing the right thing, which is asking for some input a priori. Give all the details much thought before you dive in, and I\'m sure that you\'ll come up with a winner!

Have a nice day.

KingIdiot

03-06-2002, 05:01 PM

MRArk,

Actually you nailed some of the things I was planning on doing.

Your description of making the library jmore modular nearly hits the nail on the head for what I\'m thinking about doing.

The idea of dry and amped at the same tiem is also an option I was looking at, it jsut depended on how well it would translate as samples, and space considerations. Still I was planning on recording that way no matter what.

thatnks for the suggestions http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

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Really...I am an Idiot

MUSICMAN

03-06-2002, 05:06 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrArkadine:
[B]

First, if you\'re going to record an undistorted and distorted versions of each sample, would it be possible to run an electrical guitar output to an amp or a breakout box with different outs, and then run each one through a different effects unit and into your recording gear so that you would save time, and the library comes out more consistent instead of recording each version separately?
--------------------------------------------

That was a good idea, maby you can:
Record the guitar dry, then use POD or any other device to add distortion later. Based on the orginal recording, you can now make as many variations as you like.

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......... regards :)

MUSICMAN

03-06-2002, 05:11 PM

Too late again, hehe... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

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......... regards :)

JamesGrote

03-06-2002, 09:37 PM

My only recommendation is to minimize (please avoid at all costs!) using amp and speaker simulators (POD, etc.) as they just can\'t capture real amps/cabs cranking on 11.

Anyone can plug into to a pod and lay down some parts. Let\'s hear the monster sounds for when I can\'t wake up the entire city block at 2:00 in the morning with my own amps, or don\'t have time to mike my cabs and so forth.

I like the idea of doing sounds based on certain songs and bands. That would definitely make it easier to find exactly what I need. Focus more on the overall sound as opposed to exactly what guitars you use. At full blast distortion, things like cab config and mike placement affect the sound much more than the specific brand of guitar. Do you have different cabs in mind? 4x12, 4x10, what about 2x15 for a huge 7-string sound?

Cool, sounds like a great use of Gigastudio\'s power.

James www.BrainFeverMusic.com (\"http://www.BrainFeverMusic.com\")

KingIdiot

03-06-2002, 11:07 PM

I think more importantly I should be going after the \"sound\". I\'ve got a great SansAmp Pre amp and can get acoustic Models of speaker/pre amp combos that would probably blow the Pod out of the water.

still I think what I will be doing is trying to get a sound and asking for opinions on it and what I was going for, before I sit down and sample it. Tweak them to \"work\". Whether its Mic Models, Room Models, Real Amps...different guitars...etc.

I want to leave the options open to get a sound not jsut limit myself to not using amp models. I think if I study a reference sound enough I can get close or better to it http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif We all know I\'m a tweak like that.

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Really...I am an Idiot

thesoundsmith

03-06-2002, 11:10 PM

King,

I know you know this, but I have to comment:

If you sample a single note, say C3, through a distortion FX or amp cab and play it back as CEG, it\'s a very different sound than sampling the CEG chord through the FX. Unless you intend to sample all the one note, two note and three note combinations, you may have better results recording the instrument clean and adding the distortion AFTER the fact (ala Revalver-HELLOOO RV guys, anybody listening? Big Market Here...)

I tried this years ago on a 2-bit Akai S900 and was VERY disappointed in the results. It\'s like my XP-80 rock guitar-sounds great as a single note solo, but sux for chords.

Of course you may have another trick up your sleeve...

Dasher

KingIdiot

03-06-2002, 11:45 PM

Dash,

I think everyone is expecting this to be a more \"traditional\" sample library where its an instrument that you can simply play like a Keyboard/synth patch.

I dont think I will be focusing on making this a library like that. But more so it will be a \"construction kit\" library with different styles and guitar sounds. It will not be able to play EVERY PERFORMANCE in the world, but it will be an out of the box experience with enough flexability to cover most basic rhythmic patterns.

I\'m sure most people will find this limiting, and I expect that. BUT I think many people will find it usefull. Its sort of \"inbetween\" being a loop library and a full sample library. Posibly more like the \"groove control\" libraries by ilio, but alot more flexible and less limiting http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I guess I shouldn\'t have made this thread seem like it would be a \"traditional\" library. I want to take a chance and try something completely different.

If I was trying to make a heavy metal \"traditional\" guitar library...I wouldn\'t record with distortion. Thats jsut plain and simple.

The focus will be on fifths single notes and fourths and 3rds.

I will ahve a battle plan once I create a \"routine\" in the sampling process.

Expect the library to sound more like a performer, but not be a \"performing\" library.

anmd no it wont be a tweaking nightmare http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

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Really...I am an Idiot

Maarten Spruijt

03-07-2002, 04:39 PM

Good, but like he said himself, obvious point by Soundsmith.

I am still amazed what the Multi-fx effect in my good old Roland Sound Canvas can do to the simple, internal guitar patches. Distortion and overdrive AFTER the signal. At this point, I\'m 100% sure I can get the most realistic processed (so dist. or overdrive) elec. guitar parts from my Canvas, and NOT with any guitar samples I got.

So that\'s up to you to change, King!

[This message has been edited by Maarten Spruijt (edited 03-07-2002).]

V-Groove

03-07-2002, 07:28 PM

I will buy the library if you have some nice Drop D,B, C stuff.... I always like that. Processed and Dry would also be cool !

dwdonehoo

03-09-2002, 01:12 PM

OK KI, now I am confused. Do you want to do something like Smart Violins? My main (not only) guitar lib is the Steve Stevens (demo at EW-057 (\"EW-057\") ), and that lib has a lot of construction stuff like OD Triads UL, OD OpenChrds, OD chugs, OD Doubles, OD 5THS_LG, Clean Min9, along with the usual leads, EGuitar, AGuitar, sitar, univibe, tremalo, ultrafuzz...you get the picture. I used a little of this stuff in my song \"Fight\" on my mp3com site for anybody interested. So anyway, how is what you want to do different? How would it be typically used? Sounds interesting...

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Doyle W. Donehoo
Radar Music
http://www.sierra-trails.com/radarmusic.html (\"http://www.sierra-trails.com/radarmusic.html\")
MP3.COM:
http://www.mp3.com/Doyle_W_Donehoo (\"http://www.mp3.com/Doyle_W_Donehoo\")

KingIdiot

03-09-2002, 02:37 PM

what I\'m looking at is makign it more of a kit library based on \"familiar songs\"

playing styles are pretty similar across songs, but not all, and I believe that focusing on this might help people recreate music styles they like.

ITs limiting since its not particularly \"free\" but for many producers, and sampling music makers it might be a fresh change and...maybe....in some cases...a quicker turn around.

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Really...I am an Idiot

Lancelink

03-09-2002, 03:23 PM

King,

You\'re really filling a void with this one...glad to hear it!!!

Sounds like you already have this area under control, but here is a basic list of amps that correspond to the tones your looking for:

John Petrucci - (on Awake) Used the Mesa Boogie Triaxis Preamp almost exclusively with the Boogie 290 power amp

Enter Sandman was a blend of an old Marshall Plexi and an ADA MP1 preamp

Mr. Rhoades rig usually consisted of a Roland Jazz Chorus of all things with an MXR+ distortion pedal (sometimes blending with a early master volume Marshall)

Most of the \"New Metal\" Bands are using Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifiers for that huge wall of sound thing.

Hope this helps!

P.S. All this wonderful guitar trivia comes from too many years of listening to my brother go on and on and on about guitar tone. Just don\'t ask me to define what a brown sound is!

[This message has been edited by Lancelink (edited 03-09-2002).]

Munsie

03-12-2002, 10:42 PM

This topic must not die a slow death! NEVER!

KingIdiot

03-12-2002, 11:26 PM

Hey Guys,

I have access to a couple of Dual and one Triple Rectifier. With two of the amps modified.

HOWEVER, It doesn\'t mean I\'m going to use the same amp guitar combos to get the sound. What I\'m planning is Going to be more of an \"ear\" thing more than being true to the actual Signal Chain.

Its the only way I\'m going to ever keep the library cheap, which is a priority. Shooting for 100 bucks and multiple CDs. Maybe a Video/AVI as well, decribing whats going on in each patch and why I did it a \"Certain\" way by showing you whats actually happening on the guitar. I\'d like to do some sort of explanation of \"why\" because I\'m sure there will be alot that question going around when I do release it.

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Really...I am an Idiot

Munsie

03-14-2002, 09:53 AM

Hi King,

Better look here before you get too involved in the thought process, looks like they have combined samples and a maestro type of tool to play them for you as well. The demo sounds interesting to say the least.
http://217.110.99.105/en/products/virtual_guitarist/ (\"http://217.110.99.105/en/products/virtual_guitarist/\")

KingIdiot

03-14-2002, 10:16 AM

I took a listen Munsie.

when I saw Chadwick\'s post I was almost relieved because of the amount of work it would save me http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

then...I listened...

Man that heavy metal part sounds like poo. The tone is neat, not great, but it all of the guitar sounds fake IMO.

Great Idea, and probably very usable and versatile, but still not going to fill the void for heavy guitars.

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Really...I am an Idiot

MrArkadine

03-14-2002, 10:53 AM

I took a listen too, and I have to agree with KI here. The sounds lacks ballz. Maybe it\'s just the demo, I don\'t know, but it sounds fake like King pointed out.
Also, I\'d be very interested in knowing the versatility of that product, because modifying the track after it\'s been laid out sure sounds like a pain in the arse...

[This message has been edited by MrArkadine (edited 03-14-2002).]

Munsie

03-14-2002, 03:08 PM

\"Having said that, it would probably fool casual listeners (i.e. non-musicians).\"

Isn\'t that the idea? I thought the demo sounded fine for what they are trying to accomplish, a good rythm guitar instrument. I thought the heavy line was a bit too mechanical, but you can\'t argue the tone. And with post processing I\'m sure you could fatten it up even more. This really reminds me of something like \"Rythm And Chords\" which I already own, but here they include the samples as well. Hey, you have to give those VST guys some credit for trying some new things. Giga/Tascam seem to be coasting right now. IMO.

KingIdiot

03-14-2002, 11:15 PM

Mr Ark,

I have a feeling that the Virtual Guitarist tool might be pretty neat.

Looking at the \"knobs\" they use for settings makes me think you can jsut qauntize/step right a part then \"loosen\" it up to taste.

Looks really neat, and very versatile.

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Really...I am an Idiot

Tokyo Joe

03-14-2002, 11:29 PM

I have to agree. The acoustic at the beginning sounds pretty good before the chord change and... that\'s when it becomes very apparent we\'re listening to a sequencer. I too thought the heavy electric guitar was poor.

Having said that, it would probably fool casual listeners (i.e. non-musicians).

SCARBEE

03-15-2002, 10:48 AM

I think that these new VSTI instruments are a bit scary. Just think how they will sound in the next generation?

What I don\'t like is the fact that these new \"formats\" /instruments are \"closed\" for all developers outside Steinberg and Spectrasonics.. It\'s like going back to the old sample-player synths where only people hired by the manufactur could make new samples.

If anyone know how if it is possible to get an editor/programming thing for these - let me know. But I doubt.

I think Virtual Guitarist sounds better than I feared. A lot of people will love it.

Scarbee

PS. The virtual guitarist is made of real rhytms played by guitarists. It is not put together by different sampls. It is a loop library with new control options.

[This message has been edited by SCARBEE (edited 03-15-2002).]