Purrrfect Drums - official demo now posted [Archive]

Bardstown Audio

03-01-2002, 01:50 PM

There is quiet a variety of snare drums, which are available, and Jim has provided a few of these snares in his \"Purrrfect Drums\" collection. The snares that are provided in this collection are very well captured with quality in these samples, but no doubt some people have different preferences for snares, which is okay. In all honesty, you cannot say that the snares in this collection are not good, just because it is not the particular snare sound that you are wanting in particular.

Now, I would like to make a very frank statement...

The cymbals in Jim\'s \"Purrrfect Drums\" collection are absolutely the MOST AMAZING sampled cymbals that I have ever heard!!!

Jim has this entire \"Purrrfect Drums\" collection priced at $250 USD. There is a HUGE COLLECTION OF CYMBALS in this collection. There are over 15 GIGABYTES of samples in this collection on eight compressed CD\'s.

Considering the many thousands of samples that are contained in this sampled drum set collection, IT IS ONE HECK OF A BARGAIN, priced at ONLY $250. Such a collection with so much work and detail as this, normally sells for $1,000.

The cymbals alone without any snares, toms, kick drums, etc., are worth at least $600, but you get these wonderful cymbals plus all of these other quality drums for only $250!

We should all be very grateful that Jim is providing such high quality as this for very little money!

Kind regards,

Kip
Bardstown Audio www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

Pete Leoni

03-01-2002, 01:56 PM

Whoa!!!!!!!!

Are you guys listening to the same demo! I am using Purrrfect drums every day on every project that I do. I say this with no qualms, no reservations. I usualy HATE drum samples.

Theses are truly living samples they really need to be used to be appreciated. Just to talk about a few things, the Kick drums for example, are the only kick drums I\'ve ever used that always sit perfectly in almost any mix. Furthermore they are very nearly undetectable as samples. I almost ALWAYS replace the live kick drums in every recording I do with these Kicks, and let me tell you I have a lot of microphones and a lot of time behind a mixing desk. The crashes are truly outstanding. It is very true that there is not a great deal of processing done on these samples, but that is something best left up to the engineer is it not? Perhaps he should have posted a full production for a demo. I once posted a mix I did with those samples on the Paris NG, those guys are tough and most of them loved the set. I have almost every drum sample set out there, these are the ones I use in the vast majority of my work.

pete

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by donimon:
i was considering the library, but after the demo i think i\'ll pass. sounds very midi-ish to me. some of the snare drags and stuff really give it away. maybe it\'s just a quick demo, but nothing to make me run and buy. best drums i\'ve heard is an old cd called burning grooves that has some awesome slamming kits ......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Pete Leoni

KingIdiot

03-01-2002, 02:23 PM

I\'\'m not really trying to knock this library, in fact I want to support Jim for his killer deal.

At the price, it blows Clearmountains Poo Poo library out of the water (worst purchase I ever made). The snares in Clearmountain are bad IMO.

Which is why I wish someone would pst what this library \"could do\" not quick kit demos played from trigger pads/kits.

IMO thats not the best way to recreate drums with MIDI. Yes its great for performance, but in the end the retriggers of the same Hi hat and same snare, so you need to tweak the sequence or build a MIDI module/software tweak to get it to sound good.

Yues the kick sounds nice... I dont like that close sound all the time, but it is nice and reminds me of tone I used to get when I recorded bands. I\'m considering the library jsut to have a kick like this in my arsenal...not because I\'d want to use it all the time mind you. The cybals have great tone...but are there left and right hits for hats and ride? The crashes have a great sound especially for no EQ.

anyhow,..yes I know many of you guys believe in the \"this is what you get out of the box\" demo approach, but I also like to hear what can really be acheived. It puts things in perspective.

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Really...I am an Idiot

Simon Ravn

03-01-2002, 02:25 PM

OK at that price and with that content, I might reconsider the library actually. I just dont like neither the snare or the kick in the demo.

Kobb

03-01-2002, 02:44 PM

I have Purrrfect drums and am very happy with the purchase.

Having said that, I don\'t think this demo necessarily puts the library\'s best foot forward.

The cymbals in Purrrfect drums are fantastic, as are the toms.

The drums have tons of impact, which works well in many situations and is less appropriate in others. The cymbals are always great.

The snares aren\'t completely my style, but it\'s just a matter of taste. There are some really nice options available with the snares (left/right hand samples & edge samples). Also, Jim has mentioned that he plans to release a collection of snares to expand the \"color\" options, and I will definitely give it serious consideration because I feel that Jim really does a great job of sampling.

I tried mapping Purrfect drums\' quick kits to my electric kit and while it blew away my DM-Pro module, I agree with King that there are certain nuances that can\'t be triggered correctly from an electric kit (especially hi hat). I\'ve since mapped Purrfect drums to my Roland R-8 and have been much happier with the results programming the patterns. Purrfect drums has the sounds, it\'s just a matter of accessing them properly.

One thing I do miss is the \"Room\" sound. Although you can always run it through an fx unit, it\'s not quite the same thing as the sound of the kit when mic\'d from a distance.

But once again, I\'m very happy with Purrrfect Drums. Thanks for all the hard work, Jim.

sgarsson

03-01-2002, 09:02 PM

Why not just create a better demo?

From all the raves this kit must rock.

I am sure the sound designers have put man months into this effort. Why not a man week or two into showing it off?

I have recently d/l\'ed the wizoo drum sounds on line after listening to what I thought were very impressive representations of the sounds - granted a different price point. Bottom line good marketing helps the sale.

Maybe ask one of the ravers to volunteer their work with your kit for the demo?

Scott

Deep White

03-02-2002, 10:40 PM

I\'d also like a better demo. I\'m really interested with this library, but 250 USD is too much at risk.

------------------
Arys Chien
Composer & Musician
Deep White Studio
Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C.

Jim Roseberry

03-03-2002, 01:58 AM

Hmmm...

OK... so the Purrrfect Drums samples and demo absolutely suck.
Needless to say, I completely disagree.
But I\'ll roll with that opinion.

So... having established that my samples and demo are terrible, risky, etc., I\'d like to have some perspective on these comments.

I want to hear better examples of sequenced drum/cymbal samples. And I want to hear them in the context of a mock band (bass, guitar, drums). No loops or solos please.
Show me better drum/cymbal samples, more realistic sounding sequenced parts, a better mix, etc.

If I\'m impressed, I\'ll give you a free copy of Purrrfect Drums... and consider letting you do a demonstration.

Otherwise, I\'ll go on the assumption that you\'re blowin\' smoke up my tail.
The PD samples are currently being used on ALL major TV networks, by top flight composers/producers/engineers, we\'ve sold several hundred copies (soley by word-of-mouth) and have received scores of unsolicited comments/quotes attesting to quality of the samples.
I could go on to say that we\'ve even had a Zildjian rep who absolutely flipped when he heard Mario (owner of Alternate Mode - Makers of DrumKat) playing the PD cymbal samples. Needless to say, it\'s not easy to impress cymbal companies with cymbal samples. There\'s also been a number of folks who\'ve posted here that actually own/use the library. They\'ve given candid/honest opinions... and their consensus is that they might not like literally everything in PD, but that there\'s still a WHOLE LOT that they do like.

And I\'ll wind up this post by saying this...
Even if you ignored ALL of the drum sounds on PD (which I highly doubt would happen), the cymbal samples are without a doubt absolutely the best in the world.

Jim Roseberry www.studiocat.com (\"http://www.studiocat.com\")

SCARBEE

03-03-2002, 04:11 AM

Hi Jim,

I think that the hihats and cyms sound totally cool. It is hard for me to decide on the BD and snare since I don\'t know about the level of the two - are the BD too load on the demo? If you send me the library I would happiæy make a demo for you, as I am sure it is cool. If the snares are a problem - do another snare and sell it as an Expansion pack. I myself have made exp. packs with 480 new samples for free - so it is possible, you just have to be a littlr crazy like me...

If you want to do another demo yourself, then do this: Find a good drumbeat and some cool riffs from a lopp library. Run it through wave-surgeon or rECYCLE. Spilt it up in 16 notes and make a midi-file. Analyze the samples and the rhythm and imitate this with your own samples.

Good luck

Thomas

------------------
Visit www.scarbee.com (\"http://www.scarbee.com\") and check out the demoes from The Scarbee Bass Libraries:)

KingIdiot

03-03-2002, 01:40 PM

Jim, done deal, I\'ll whip something up quickly....tho I was planning on taking a break today....

I can never seem to get away from the computers.

I think the cymbals sound great, but I questioned why people always seem to demo this library with Drum Triggers. It always sounds terrible to me. the performance actually seems to suffer. Also you get that machine gun effect that SCREAMS \"MIDI\"

when you give a listener a chance to focus on that it grapples them and doesn\'t let you focus on how it \"could\" be used, but rather how its being used here. Which IMO, is not that great. The performance sounds sloppy, the snare sounds like its way up front. The kick isn\'t all that bad. I\'d use it when I want that tight Bass sound. The cymbals sit right in, which is nice for no EQ.

EDIT-
BTW when you say mock band do you mean no real instruments? Or just fake drums?

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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 03-03-2002).]

route909

03-03-2002, 04:07 PM

Heya Jim!

quote >> I want to hear better examples of sequenced drum/cymbal samples. And I want to hear them in the context of a mock band (bass, guitar, drums). No loops or solos please.
Show me better drum/cymbal samples, more realistic sounding sequenced parts, a better mix, etc.

If I\'m impressed, I\'ll give you a free copy of Purrrfect Drums... and consider letting you do a demonstration. << end of quote

Hello Jim, I haven´t actually shopped at your web store yet, but I´ve heard great things about it... and the drums. I´m about to record an entire drum kit myself, for a huge collection of sounds in giga/soundfont format, but the engineer/drummer I´m about to work with (in his studio) has had to cancel twice :/. I´ve seen you on different forums and I have come to respect you greatly http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif After seeing this post, I couldn´t resist your little challenge.
For my demos, go to my ftp server:

ip: 213.66.166.248
username: music
pass: music

Or if you prefer to open the link in internet explorer or Netscape: ftp://music:music@213.66.166.248

Download \"wonderwall.mp3\" and \"mr_bojangles.mp3\" and tell me what you think (Mr Bojangles has a live recorded brushed snare drum with additional fills in midi, just so you know, but everything else except the guitar and the singing is soundfonts).

Mail me for my shipping address http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Take care!

Mats

Atombo

03-03-2002, 04:27 PM

Ah, what the heck, I won\'t win, but why not http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
I made this a while ago when I just got Drumkit from Hell. I\'ve made a giga version myself and I tested it out with this. I then liked it, picked up a guitar and jammed along a bit. I know it\'s not properly mixed or anything like that. But I do like the drums in this. I did no processing whatsoever. I just programmed the drums, added some roland jv1010 sounds in the beginning (piano and bass) and jammed along with a squier guitar and a Line 6 Pod, straight into my wave recorder and then directly to my mp3 encoder.
So well, this is just for fun http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Blablabla (\"http://cynosura.cs.kun.nl/~tom/mp3/pfh_guitar3.mp3\")

Tom

Simon Ravn

03-03-2002, 04:32 PM

Ed Lima, great stuff. Especially in your 2nd demo, the drumtrack is very convincing!

JamesGrote

03-03-2002, 05:09 PM

Here\'s an excerpt from my second last CD, which I think is a good example of 100% sampled drums. I believe the entire set is from Bob Clearmountain\'s, except the snare (don\'t remember which set that\'s from). I played the drums on a DrumKat, with minimal midi tweaking, to capture a very live performed feel. Also, the set has zero eq or compression, just a touch of reverb, especially the snare.

I think the most important thing about using drum samples is simply to never repeat the same snare, ride, crash, or tom sample in a row. Luckily, the DrumKat can be programmed so that each pad alternates through a list a notes. (i.e. the \"ride\" pad cycles through 4 ride samples). This gives me the ability to jam along with my song, yet get a fairly complete midi take right away, only requiring minimal tweaking for double hits and so forth.
http://www.BrainFeverMusic.com/razoredge_drumdemo3.mp3 (\"http://www.BrainFeverMusic.com/razoredge_drumdemo3.mp3\")

p.s. I guess this demo is two-fold. One, to show a demo of sampled drums that I believe sounds very realistic, and two; that this can be achieved through a live performance using drumpads that can cycle through samples. (i.e. L and R snare hits, etc.) Enjoy!

-James

Jim Roseberry

03-03-2002, 05:12 PM

Hi folks,

Thanks for the submissions so far.
You\'re all very musical.

However, I\'ve yet to hear anything that I like remotely as well as my own sloppy/****ty PD samples/demo.

Surely with as much critique as has been passed out, someone here should be able to blow my doors off.

Jim Roseberry www.studiocat.com (\"http://www.studiocat.com\")

dwdonehoo

03-03-2002, 05:36 PM

I currently do not have room on my site to post, and MP3.com is dragging their feet getting my page up with my demos, so post an email address and I will give your doors a test. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif
OBTW, I too downloaded and heard your demo, and my first reaction was that (meaning no disrespect) it could not be doing the samples justice.
Those Scarbee demos: excellent.

- - - - - -
Doyle W. Donehoo
Radar Music
http://www.sierra-trails.com/radarmusic.html (\"http://www.sierra-trails.com/radarmusic.html\")

Jim Roseberry

03-03-2002, 05:43 PM

Hi Doyle,

jim@studiocat.com

Jim Roseberry www.studiocat.com (\"http://www.studiocat.com\")

KingIdiot

03-03-2002, 05:51 PM

I\'ve been out all afternoon taking care of stuff, and this has been on my mind all day.
I dont think you should make this a contest of who can get the best drum sound, but rather who can program a good demo with drums.

If you are so content with PD\'s sound then ofcourse you\'re never going to find something that you think compares.

also anyone doing these \"contest\" drums should consider that the drums Jim posted had very little tweaking in the EQ and verb dept. So maybe you should post it without verb and then with verb for a real/more equal comparison. Even tho I\'m saying this, we should be focusing on MIDI programming.

and for the record, I\'ve never said your demo was pooty. I did think the guitar playing was sloppy, ... because it is.

I\'ve been clamouring for an answer about the freaking Quick kit thing and why the demos I hear are all Drum Trigger demos. can someone answer both of these issues for me?

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Really...I am an Idiot

JamesGrote

03-03-2002, 05:54 PM

In interest of hopefully providing *constructive* criticism, here are my thoughts on your demo. The drums themselves seem like high quality samples, unfortunately, the demo doesn\'t give them justice.
Here are my suggestions:
- fix ANY identical samples repeated in a row. Don\'t hit the same ride sample on every beat. Cycle through ride hit variations. For the crashes, don\'t hit the left crash sample three times in a row, etc. Otherwise, it gives away their sampled nature.
- use a real bass, or at least better bass samples. I\'m hearing a the same cheezy bass slap sample repeated too much. Don\'t let other obvious samples like the bass ruin the illusion of real instruments here.

Hope this helps! We can always use new and different drum sets.

James http://www.BrainFeverMusic.com (\"http://www.BrainFeverMusic.com\")

donnie

03-03-2002, 08:54 PM

Ok, I\'ll bite and throw my hat into the ring...
http://www.dssoundware.com/sounds/GOTTATRY.mp3 (\"http://www.dssoundware.com/sounds/GOTTATRY.mp3\")

Donnie

Bardstown Audio

03-03-2002, 09:07 PM

Hey Donnie,

What piano did you use on that demo?

Kip

donnie

03-03-2002, 09:16 PM

Kip,

Acutally I used the Apple Quicktime piano....it really has that nice warm quality that I like so much.

Ok, just kidding, it was your\'s.....and actually the lite version too!

Donnie

PS....the saxes are from the \"unknown\" library and the bass is Dan\'s.

[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 03-03-2002).]

Kobb

03-03-2002, 09:35 PM

I have Purrrfect drums, and as I commented above, I\'ve found that I much prefer to program the drums rather than trigger them from an electric kit. This is because:

#1. Although I can keep a beat fairly well, I can program stuff than I wouldn\'t be able to do manually. So this area is purely a preference based upon my shortcomings as a performer.

#2. The Purrrfect drums library has a lot of cool nuances that just can\'t be translated via a kit. This, once again, is not a criticism of the library, but rather a limitation of current drum triggers. There is no electric snare drum trigger out there that can tell if you\'re using your right hand vs. your left hand, yet Jim has included separate samples for both hands. Also, there are 17 (I think) different levels of \"tightness\" for the hi hat from pedal to wide open, and once again this is very difficult to translate to trigger system naturally.

I will try to put something together this week with the Purrrfect drums library. I don\'t have a sequencing program yet, but I can map the PD samples to my Roland R-8 and program patterns and songs in the drum machine. Also, I don\'t have a place to post the MP3 file, but I could e-mail it to Jim or King if they\'d be willing to post it.

Hopefully I can get something done by Thursday or Friday (between the day job and classes).

KingIdiot

03-03-2002, 09:52 PM

Donnie,

Thumbs up on the demo. Sounds nice. It sounds much better than any of the previous demos. It sounds actually mixed.

Kobb....17!!!!!! Are there multiple velocities of each. If so why the hell are the previous demos done on simple drum triggers. Their giving a false sense of crappiness to the library. I would pick up a library thatr had 17 different variations of hi hats...especially if there were right hand and left hand hits for each.

Next drum library I buy will be this one on that fact alone, I wouldhave never thought it was this way jsut because of the previous demos.

anyhow I threw together a pretty basic thingy with Ral Giga Drums. Its using one of hte Econimic Kits for all except snare. The Snare is Kit \"2\" with Dry, Over, Room Mixed to taste.
http://www.musicyouneed.com/drums/Drumthingy1.mp3 (\"http://www.musicyouneed.com/drums/Drumthingy1.mp3\")

Its all direct out of the library no EQ and no reverb. The cymbals could do with EQ and mixing (hi hats). And the bass guitar is clipping or something at the end. I\'m not sure what happened but I\'m too lazy to deal with it right now. I threw a limiter on the whole mix just so volume was a little louder.

Of course If was trying to profesionally mix this I would track each drum seperately and EQ and mix to taste, or even layer other drums in.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

Kobb

03-03-2002, 09:57 PM

King

Yes, I believe there are multiple velocities for each of those hi-hat increments. The hi-hats don\'t have left/right hand samples - only the snares.

Nick Phoenix

03-03-2002, 10:39 PM

I love this library ( except the snares ). A must have!

donnie

03-03-2002, 11:01 PM

Sean really dug the fill in the You gotta try piece so I decided to post the lick below for all you drum geeks....(like myself)

http://www.dssoundware.com/storage/LICK.tif (\"http://www.dssoundware.com/storage/LICK.tif\")

Donnie

[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 03-04-2002).]

[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 03-04-2002).]

Ed Lima

03-03-2002, 11:46 PM

Well Jim, as I\'m never able to resist a challenge, I\'ve posted two short MIDI drum programming demos I\'m somewhat proud of:
http://www.edlima.com/surf.mp3 (\"http://www.edlima.com/surf.mp3\") http://www.edlima.com/santana.mp3 (\"http://www.edlima.com/santana.mp3\")

They\'re short style excerpts from my commercial music demo from last year. I would say that they sound and feel natural to my ears. Of course, I\'m wide open to any comments/criticisms/crucifixions from anyone and everyone, so fire away.

Fwiw, Jim, your drum samples sound pretty great to my ears. I can hear what Pete Leoni is saying about that kick drum. It\'s a great sounding natural acoustic kick drum. Some of us might have had our ears spoiled by the ultra-processed, ultra-compressed kicks most people produce for synths and such, but I think your kick is realistic, which can\'t truthfully be said about most percussion soundware out there these days.

However, I will go out on a limb here and say that the demo mp3 posted at the top of the thread could be a little tighter, in my most humble opinion. It\'s more a question of salesmanship, I think. If one is going to stick one\'s neck out and say, \"THIS is what you get for the money,\", then the demo and the performance should be as close to perfect as possible. But this is just my opinion, and (I say this with all sincerity) that you may feel free to consider or ignore or dismiss my thoughts as you like.

My $0.02, and it tain\'t worth much more than that..

------------------
Ed Lima
ed@edlima.com
htp://www.edlima.com
ICQ#25972724
AOL IM: EdLimaMusicMedia

Bruce A. Richardson

03-04-2002, 07:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
I love this library ( except the snares ). A must have!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How many people, EVEN JIM\'S DIRECT COMPETITORS, have to say these words before you guys wake up?

You\'ll suck each other\'s balls dry over a lousy four-note demo of some John Williams trumpet line, yet you\'ll rip a developer a new poopy-hole if he so much as dares try to promote his product.

Demos are the bane of this industry. Sometimes I think they should be outlawed.

SCARBEE

03-04-2002, 08:17 AM

Hi Bruce,

Demos are the bane of this industry. Sometimes I think they should be outlawed.

Sorry, but I think you go too far here. Way too far. Would you rather like to be dependent on strong advertisments? Big companies who can afford marketing their product as the best and most fantastic ever?
And you buy the product and get so disappointed? I have tried this so many times. Sure there are libraries which a far better than their demoes and their a demoes better than the product, but still...

Making libraries are not so easy, even if you have the best equipment and technichians and even world class musicians. Sometimes it doesn\'t simply work.

If I get the chance I will gladly help any developer out with demoes unless it is a competitor off course. But I will never give bad reviews to a fellow developer - then I rather shut up. I agree on that.

On the other hand developers like Nick are also users - so it is quite a balance..

cheers

Thomas

------------------
Visit www.scarbee.com (\"http://www.scarbee.com\") and check out the demoes from The Scarbee Bass Libraries:)

SCARBEE

03-04-2002, 08:19 AM

SCARBEE

03-04-2002, 08:31 AM

About demoes...

I make my bass demoes mainly for myself to see if \"I got it right\". Can my library do this and that? Usually I make some very early demoes to check it out. Now If a developer can\'t make a good demo - how much have he tried it out? What are the programming and sampling then based on?

I personally own a dozen drum libraries and I always put together my own cutum kits. I even cut up loops to make my own hihats, snares, tec because they have another feel when played in a real beat. Too often you get a drum libarry where half of the snares are recorded one day and the rest another day - hence different sound. A quick demo reveals this.

So my point is, that demoes are not just great for selling and promoting your libraries, but they are important for the developer to \"tune\" his product.

Thomas

Bruce A. Richardson

03-04-2002, 09:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SCARBEE:
Hi Bruce,

Demos are the bane of this industry. Sometimes I think they should be outlawed.

Sorry, but I think you go too far here. Way too far. Would you rather like to be dependent on strong advertisments? Big companies who can afford marketing their product as the best and most fantastic ever?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. I am smart enough to filter hype. Advertisements and press releases are obviously produced by the people who stand to gain financially, therefore they are of no value whatsoever, except as notices that a product is available and what features it boasts at what price. No fault in that, it is just not a reliable indicator of quality.

But, in many cases, neither are demos.

I listen to only one thing...the advice of professional music producers. People with absolutely nothing to gain financially by promoting a product. People who must pay their bills with the product of their studio are uniquely qualified to comment on a library\'s usefulness, because they must balance the necessary elements of production to make a profit. These are the only important recommendations, all others are moot. Hobbyists have no time limitations, therefore, they may be perfectly satisfied with spending hours on a single line. Producers cannot afford this waste--it is cheaper to simply hire a studio professional to play the part than to do all this tweaking.

Demos are a crapshoot. For instance, if someone posts a 20-second combo demo that sounds great, it tells me nothing. Maybe they spent ten hours tweaking it. If so--to me at least--that library is crap no matter how hot the demo may sound. I cannot make a profit if it takes ten hours to clean a 20-second piece, or to apply 950 different articulations to get a single musical line. My house would be repossessed and my dogs and wife would starve.

On the other hand, if someone posts a 3-minute demo, which has not been cleaned at all, yet I can hear that the quality is very high, then I can guess this library is probably a good one. I can make money using it--I can get a clean part that will require very little tweaking to put money in my bank account.

But still, I can depend most on a professional musician, with an actual career, telling me \"This library works.\"

Those three little words tell me more about a library than any five hours of demos could ever reveal.

Best regards,
Bruce

PS...I have nothing against people producing demos of their products, obviously, since I have given demos to various producers. I just think it is ridiculous for people here to whine and whine about demos, over a product which can pay for itself on a single job. That is so amateurish. Nobody ever said the music business is cheap. If $250 is too much to pay for a great drum library, then these guys are in the wrong business. It costs more than that to hire a decent drummer for one session.

I can also say this about any of the demos I have done. I don\'t mess with fancy articulations, and I don\'t spend any time on them except just the most basic \"cleanup\" and mixing. For instance, both the Holst and Bankersangerlieder demos of Dan Dean\'s libraries I did are played straight in, quantized a bit, mixed, and mastered to MP3. No legato/staccato articulations, nothing. If I can\'t play the line right out of the keyboard, I have no use for dilly-dallying around. I lose money when I must do that.

Scarbee, you have been in this business long enough to know that people have been producing great music with MUCH worse libraries than even the lowest-quality GIGA titles. There is so much whining about library quality on this forum, and it is a bunch of baloney. It just means that there are a lot of very un-talented people who are frustrated with their own mediocrity. Any half-talented producer can work wonders with ANY of the libraries for Giga. I just get sick of all the complaining about library producers. People should be worshipping these guys, not giving them grief. I thank God every day for people like you, Nick, Donnie, Jim, Michiel, Worra, Dan, Gary, Kip, Larry Seyer, the folks at Nemesys--all the talented people that have made it possible to be SO PROFITABLE in a business that is very difficult to successfully negotiate. When I see people criticizing library producers, it really insults me. I consider these people to be very good friends of musicians...who do not deserve the continued criticism they get.

SCARBEE

03-04-2002, 09:40 AM

Hi Bruce,

So from now on I will not make more advanced demoes and skip most of the articulations - 40-50 sustained samples - will do.(wow - this means that I can release the Aura tomorrow!! I am finished.. cool) http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/tongue.gif

I must trust that some studio guy will talk nicely about it...

Bruce A. Richardson

03-04-2002, 09:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SCARBEE:
Hi Bruce,

So from now on I will not make more advanced demoes and skip most of the articulations - 40-50 sustained samples - will do.(wow - this means that I can release the Aura tomorrow!! I am finished.. cool) http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/tongue.gif

I must trust that some studio guy will talk nicely about it...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Touche!!

You know that\'s not what I mean. Besides, I can play great lines with your products with one or one hundred articulations, which is the true point. Your demos are always highly crafted, I just don\'t need them to know you have a good product. I hear that from the people who use it to make money.

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/tongue.gif right back at you, bro...

SCARBEE

03-04-2002, 10:03 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
Your demos are always highly crafted, I just don\'t need them to know you have a good product. I hear that from the people who use it to make money

Bruce? Can I quote you on this? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

PS. I always enjouy your post here at the forum, though I don\'t always agree 100%. But you know things, man...

Thomas

KingIdiot

03-04-2002, 12:35 PM

Bruce a couple of things.

Word of mouth is the reason I\'m so interested in this library. In fact it doesn\'t matter what happens at some poitn I will pick ujp this library because its $250 which at some point I will have to \"blow\" on a librry I dont need. Many people dont have this kind of money to blow on a library Its jsut plain and simple, so they rely on word of mouth and hearing the library. The Purrfect drums demos are really making me feel like I will only like the cymbals, but from people I respect on this forum (Kip, You,..etc) i hear complete Raves. Nicks comment seems to be, clsoer to the way that I\'m going to feel about the library, I\'m curious how it takes to better reverb use than in the the demo Jim posted. PLus I\'m always hearing Quick Kits, and then thats used as an excuse for the demo. Also There isn\'t enough information about the library on the site, and all I hear are raves, I still dont know waht I \'m getting. I jsut found out today about the 17 different widths of the hi hats. I would have never known that from the demos.

Another thing to think about is that not everyone one knows someone workign with the library. So demos are a main source to satiate the appetite for knowledge on a particular library.

I personall am more frustrated about the Puurrfect Drum\'s demos BECAUSE of the raves, not so much whether it makes me want to buy it. If it is that good, it deserves better demos, thats jsut plain and simple...thats not saying that the library sucks, but that the demos must be understating it very much, and that should never be the case. If the library is that good, and has been eing used to fool people into live performances so much, how hard is it to point us in the direction of music that proves this? I mean obviously its being used by all kidns of top end people that are in love with it. I understand that makign specific demos is a difficult thing to do, and may waste more time than the devloper has. Waht about asking users that have music that REALLY shows it off direct you to the music, or ask if you can post it. I\'m talking really shows off what everyone raves about.

Its the same way I felt about GOS, I felt that the demos understated it and that there needed to be some good demos made.

I understand that everyone has a different taste and ear, so I\'m not complaining thta there needs to be a better demo wiht a better snare sound. However, there needs to be a demo showcasing the libraries features... L/R snares....I keep hearign about cymbal rolls played in real time....stuff liek that.

Mind you the reason I want to hear it, is that words may over exaggerate it, or even underexaggerate it. Its plain and simple. You only trust what you yourself hears.

I dont phucking care about a free library. I only want the sucker so I can throw a demo together that can show what this library really does....if it can really do all the things people rave about. So no matter waht Jim at some point I will do a demo of the library.

I\'m jsut frustrated that you posted a comment about Demos being outlawed. I completely and wholeheartadly disagree with you. Word of mouth by people you respect-maybe for someone like me who can at some point throw 250 bucks away on it jsut to calm my frustrations about what Jim might be entitled to but hasn\'t recieved (a good demo), but not for someone who doesn\'t have a drum library and really needs a particular sounds and doesn\'t have money to burn because he doesn\'t make money from his projects. Try and differentiate the \"profesionals\" and the users who dont make money from their gigs. I only use this type of jsutification for libraries prices....not for whether they should have a demo or not.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

dwdonehoo

03-04-2002, 12:54 PM

With all due respect for all who have posted here, I thought the gist of this thread went something like this:
Jim: \"Here is a demo. Whadya think?\"
Forum: \"General consensus: this lib rocks but the demo does the lib no justice.\"
Jim: \"Well, if you think you can do better, lets HEAR something better!\"
Forum: \"OK!\" http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Also, anybody over the age of 12 with two brain cells to rub together knows what to think of a demo. It is advertising. It’s to get you thinking. A smart person takes that thought and begins to ask around and gets the advice of their peers and betters. Works for me.

As for the demo, I sent Jim my shot. Most likely it will not be the winner, but if he is willing to stick his neck out, I owe him the same respect. Just my thought.

- - - - - -
Doyle W. Donehoo
Radar Music
http://www.sierra-trails (\"http://www.sierra-trails\")

David Abraham

03-04-2002, 01:17 PM

....I think I understand the issues, but for better or worse a believable online demo is a necessary requirement for me to spend money and time on libraries these days.

Sometimes when I\'m shopping I\'m looking for sounds for a particular feel that I\'m hoping to achieve in a specific production project I\'m working on. A good demo helps quickly zero in on possible alternatives for that specific project.

In my observation the primary point of controversy with Purrfect drums has been with the snares. I too think some alternative snares could be featured, besides it seems snares are the challenge for all drum libraries, so that\'s the -first-thing I listen for.

-david abraham

Munsie

03-04-2002, 01:24 PM

Bottom line, there should always be at least 2 \"official demos\" for a sample library. A basic live session where the demo simply shows someone jamming with the library out of the box. Next should be a full blown polished demo of what the library is capable of. Problem solved... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

KingIdiot

03-04-2002, 01:30 PM

Another point,

What about the \"tweaker\" who does have time to tweak. To use the different articulations, or is part of a team that allows the time to tweak. Shouldn\'t they be allowed to hear waht could be acheived? Jsut because you need a library that \"works\" doesn\'t mean someone doesn\'t need a library that can be tweaked. If I were a tweaker I\'d want a library that I could bet a more \"realstic\" performance out of than the demo is showing off.

This debate has strayed a bit from the orignial post. I only posted to say that I think Jim\'s demo could be better and that it CAN make people think the library isn\'t that good. I dont think he needcs to lie to people by over tweaking, but I\'d liek to hear what can be done with some actual miniscule editing in the sequencer. Like Left Right hand hits. Tweaking of the rolls.

Doing some things that is commonly done to \"improve\" the soudn that I keep hearing you guys talk about. EQ Compression, Reverb....Mixing. Not using a Quick Kit if there is a better option...AND WILL SOMEONE ANSER THAT FREAKING QUESITON ABOU WHAT A QUICK KIT IS!!....

I think im deserves more because the library is so cheap for so much material. He\'s also won the respect of a few people here. The library itself has gotten raves, so why post a bad demo?

In fact Take it off
dont post any demos

If word of mouth is the main selling point get rid of the demo page

King,...you are the weakest link...goodbye! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

Bruce A. Richardson

03-04-2002, 01:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by donnie:
Uh, haven\'t we strayed from the original topic here? I\'m still waiting to here from Jim on my demo http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Donnie

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My question is this:

If Buddy Rich rolls over in his grave, and no one is there to hear it, does the trumpet section still get fired?

KingIdiot

03-04-2002, 01:40 PM

Since when will non one be able to hear it!?

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

David Abraham

03-04-2002, 01:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
Another point,

...AND WILL SOMEONE ANSER THAT FREAKING QUESITON ABOU WHAT A QUICK KIT IS!!....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don\'t own the library, but what I\'ve gleaned thus far is that it contains a vast selection of samples that you can organize into your own kits. A Quick Kit is a predefined organization of samples (selected from this vast library) to get you playing in a hurry... I could be wrong and then I too would be an Idiot :-)

-david abraham

jubal

03-04-2002, 02:10 PM

Bruce,

I think it\'s sad the beating Jim is taking on his product, well demo. It\'s sounds very deep and with some exceptions (e.g., maybe snare) like quality all around. However, I take exception to your comment below.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
It just means that there are a lot of very un-talented people who are frustrated with their own mediocrity. Any half-talented producer can work wonders with ANY of the libraries for Giga. I just get sick of all the complaining about library producers. People should be worshipping these guys, not giving them grief. I thank God every day for people like you, Nick, Donnie, Jim, Michiel, Worra, Dan, Gary, Kip, Larry Seyer, the folks at Nemesys--all the talented people that have made it possible to be SO PROFITABLE in a business that is very difficult to successfully negotiate. When I see people criticizing library producers, it really insults me. I consider these people to be very good friends of musicians...who do not deserve the continued criticism they get.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. I disagree completely. I appreciate that there is this market for sampling libraries, and talented library developers to boot. But it is a MARKET. With technology like GigaStudio/Editor more musicians/studios will be creating libraries for profit. Just look at the last two years and the number of quality libraries that have been produced. It may have been a niche market in the past, but it is getting competitive. When that happens something called customer-service gets thrown into the mix. Besides creating a great library, Gary has also shown that in this market you can have customer-service...and in Gary\'s case it has been shown effective (e.g., updates).

This is a market...to be sure you have your hobbyists, band members, starting small studios (me http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif), and established studios...but they are the customer base. I agree that the developers that are on this forum go out of their way to please customers (and I mean all of them, Gary, Nick, Donnie, Franz, Kip....etc.).

I doubt that moves anything forward. Just my two cents.

...and now to get back on track...thanks for the original post Jim...this library has been on my list for a while, and I think I\'m finally able to order it.

[This message has been edited by jubal (edited 03-04-2002).]

Bruce A. Richardson

03-04-2002, 02:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:

Doing some things that is commonly done to \"improve\" the soudn that I keep hearing you guys talk about. EQ Compression, Reverb....Mixing. Not using a Quick Kit if there is a better option...AND WILL SOMEONE ANSER THAT FREAKING QUESITON ABOU WHAT A QUICK KIT IS!!....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quick Kits: Jim has compiled several \"characteristic\" combinations of instruments, with characteristic FX, etc., and called these \"quick kits.\" There\'s one for fusion, one for country, one for jazz, one for rock, a vintage kit, a \"small\" kit, etc.

These are what you pull up if you\'re in a hurry to slam out a part and hit a deadline. Usually one of them is \"close enough.\"

This is also one of the reasons the library is so huge, since these contain discrete samples (read: with recorded-on fx). Different than the \"Full\" and \"GM\" kits, which map every possible instrument, sticking, etc., into one big load. Or into many discretely separated (by instrument class) load, so you can route things to different outputs, Ports, etc.

If you load everything, we\'re talking a BIG bunch of samples.

Or, you can load literally one instrument at a time and build your own things. Or you can take advantage of Drum Maps (as in SONAR and other sequencers) to virtually remap your kit.

Tweaking: Personally not my thing, but this library would be a tweaker\'s dream/nightmare. Trust me, when GigaStudio gets the ability to sequence multiple samples per velocity, there will be many fat \"I told you so\" opportunities for Purrrfect Drums owners. You could spend a year combining the different elements of this collection, pitch shifting things, etc. With many of the instruments weighing in at 96 hits deep, you do the math!!

King: I had never thought of using phucking. Thank you. Now all my posts will be twice as long http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/tongue.gif

Improving sounds with FX:

If you want more attack on a snare, put a compressor on it, clamp it way down, then open up the attack time to let as much \"tick\" or fuller attack sound through as you wish. The faster the attack, the less of the attack sound and more of the decay sound exits the compressor. If you want to be crafty, can use a multiband compressor, and use different attack times, ratios, and thresholds on each band to more surgically tailor the snare sound.

Bottom line: Producers cure totally horrible, crap snare sounds every day in the studio, far worse than anything. Turning a snare you \"almost like\" into a great sound is pretty easy.

Waves Linear Multiband: To die for.

If you want dirtier samples with a little more hair and width, use a tape saturator or amp simulator. Excellent tool for processing drum sounds for free: Isotope\'s Vinyl plugin (direct X). Turn off the scratch/dust/warp/electronic sliders, and mess with the \"wear\" and the \"year dial.\" Instant \"whatever you\'re looking for.\" Best free plugin in the universe.

Kobb

03-04-2002, 02:26 PM

Quick kit = An single gig file that loads a scaled back selection of samples into one channel of one of the MIDI ports. Useful for triggering from an electric kit, but not as versatile as the full kit.

Full kit = A performance file which loads...
All the kicks into Port 1 Channel 1
The kit\'s associated snares into Port 2 Channel 1
The kit\'s associated toms into Port 3 Channel 1
All the Cymbals into Port 4 Channel 1.

So last night I was goofing around a bit and decided to do a mock up of the Police\'s Synchronicity I (hell, if we can do orchestral mock ups, why not pop / rock mock ups) using PD. I loaded in one of the full kits, linked all of the ports so that they would all be getting MIDI info from my R-8. Because the instruments are broken down into separate instrument files I was able to run Reverb on the snare and cymbals without putting any on the kick. Also I found that the Hi-Hats were a bit loud in the mix, so on Port 4 I left \"cymbals - all\" loaded into MIDI channel 1 and then loaded \"cymbals - hi hat\" into Port 3 MIDI channel 2. This allowed me to adjust the hi hat level within the GS mixer.

I realize that this particular demo probably won\'t be able to be used by Jim, but I thought folks might get a kick out of hearing something with which they\'re familiar.

[This message has been edited by Kobb (edited 03-04-2002).]

Jim Roseberry

03-04-2002, 02:36 PM

Quick-Start kits are kits that load as a single Gig file... and have a small amount of room ambience.

IOW, IF you want to simply load a single file and play, you\'d use the Quick-Start kits.

The Full kits use Giga\'s 4 port layering... and (using a Performance) load as separate Kick, Snare, Toms, and Cymbals Gig files.
This allows maximum sound choice and mixing flexibility. Want to change kicks? transpose the kick track chromatically.
Want to change snare drums? Transpose the snare track\'s octave up/down. All the while, you have independent control over the Kick, Snare, Toms, and Cymbals via the DSP Station.

The Quick-Start kits are each about 900MB... and are a subset of the samples used in the Full kits.

BTW, There are 8 hi-hat articulations for both the left and right hands... plus the foot pedal (each 16 stereo velocity cross-switches deep). So that\'s a total of 17 hi-hat articulations.

The Ride cymbal was sampled at:
2\" from the edge
3\" from the edge
4\" from the edge
Bell with tip of stick
Bell with shaft of stick
Again, each articulation is 16 stereo velocity cross-switches deep.

The crash cymbals were sampled:
Crashed with tip of stick
Crashed with shaft of stick
Crashed with heavy stick
Ride on crash w/tip of stick
Bell with tip of stick
Bell with shaft of stick

So King, the Full kits are certainly what you\'d want to use. Originally, I had no intention of including ready-made \'Quick-Start\'kits... but some folks just don\'t want to have to wade thru all the options (if they just want to sit down and play).

Jim Roseberry www.studiocat.com (\"http://www.studiocat.com\")

Bruce A. Richardson

03-04-2002, 02:41 PM

So tweak that http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/tongue.gif

Kobb

03-04-2002, 02:48 PM

Jim,

Thanks for clarifying the Hi-Hat articulations. I\'d forgotten that there were L&R hits for each, I just knew I had 17 pads on my R-8 dedicated to the hats.

King, sorry if my original post about the hi-hats was misleading.

[This message has been edited by Kobb (edited 03-04-2002).]

KingIdiot

03-04-2002, 03:35 PM

Bruce, If I had the library, you know I would :P

Looks impressive Jim, you might want to copy and paste this description up on the site. This is the first I\'ve heard of any of the way the articulation is laid out. Unless I missed it on the site.

Thanks for finally answering my question about Quick Kits.

About the Articulations on hats, thats 8 seperate articulations on the hats for each hand? Articulation = openness of the hi hat? Nice! Very sweet if thats the case. must be able to get the most realistic hi hat performance in the world.

Jim do you have the original Recordings? have you ever thought about rereleasing the soudns with more room?

I know it would be a nightmare to edit. but I\'ve come up with a trick to help edit multiple audio files at the same points. Meaning you can edit/split 12 tracks of drums by editing one. I\'d be willing to share the info if you think it could help. Even with your upcoming snare drum library.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 03-04-2002).]

KingIdiot

03-04-2002, 10:15 PM

Someone has sent me a personal Demo they\'ve made using this library. It proves to me that there can be a better demo for this library. I still have my quams about Snare tone, but not the playability of it. I can now understand why so many of you rave about this library. The cymbals do have great variability. And it seems that the different articulations mesh well together, which is key.

This isn\'t to open the flood gates for I told you so\'s from you guys who have been raving either. Actually maybe its more like I TOLD YOU SO!! with the fact that a better demo could/should be made.

Anyhow the library is back on my list to get for more than jsut makign a demo now http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I\'m curious about your snare library Jim. Waht are the plans for it? Also Would you consider a Kick library with maybe room/ambience control?

I always find throwing reverb on a close micd kick will never sound the same as natural room on a kick. Too much attack.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

donnie

03-04-2002, 11:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
My question is this:

If Buddy Rich rolls over in his grave, and no one is there to hear it, does the trumpet section still get fired?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif HA good one Bruce.....but what about the sounds????

Donnie

donnie

03-04-2002, 11:14 PM

Uh, haven\'t we strayed from the original topic here? I\'m still waiting to here from Jim on my demo http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Donnie

Bruce A. Richardson

03-04-2002, 11:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by donnie:
http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif HA good one Bruce.....but what about the sounds????

Donnie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They\'re cool--this is the new stuff, I\'m assuming.

Thought you might appreciate the Buddy humor...class of 77 was one of his most kickin\' bands, for sure. Ironically, Count Basie recorded that tune before Buddy did it. Slower, of course.

Bruce A. Richardson

03-05-2002, 12:07 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:

I always find throwing reverb on a close micd kick will never sound the same as natural room on a kick. Too much attack.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, put a speaker in the studio, put a mic in front of it, play your kick track, and record it to another track. Instant room.

Here\'s another one: Have a snare track without enough \"snap?\" Run a speaker feed to the studio, and place a monitor speaker on the floor. Tune up a snare drum nice and tight, set it on its side, batter head up against the speaker, and use a packing pad to cover the whole thing, so you only \"see\" the snare head facing out. Put a 57 on the snare head, and play the snare track right \"into\" the drum with this speaker, while recording the 57 signal onto another track. Mix with your original sound (try switching phase to see where it works best). Instant balls.

KingIdiot

03-05-2002, 12:26 AM

I used to do that speaker sanre trick in the studio all the time...

If I have to do that with a sample library I\'m buying anoter library http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif and layering...viola...instant balls without the hassle...or better yet just use a different snare.

and what happen to the library that \"worked\" http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif jsut bustin yer instant balls http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif not being a jerk

and you and I both know that throwing a speaker in a room to get room from a Kick thats been micd inside will never sound the same as a room mic capturing the sound from the drum. Even if its not been micd inside, it doesn\'t sound the same as the room soudn of a bass drum being hit. Its that resonating tone from the drum outwards that I want.

the only reason I ask is because maybe Jim\'s cionsidering a kick drum library as well.

howabout a much simpler trick for the kick

Filter out the high end and drop some quick compression/limiting on the sample. Throw that threw some room verb and theres some room that I can work with.
http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Still its not the same as natural resonating Kick drum in a room

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

Jim Roseberry

03-05-2002, 12:28 AM

Hi King,

Glad someone was able to impress you. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif
Seriously, this discussion has been constructive, and that\'s all that I ask.
Obviously I\'m biased, but I feel like PD has a LOT to offer. I knew that no matter what I did... each user would like certain things better than others. So... I tried to do everything as high quality as possible... and *really* push the envelope expressive-wise. That way, nearly everyone could find something(s) that \"hits the spot.\"
It\'s also very important to me that anyone even reasonably serious be able to afford the library.

As for the new snare library, the first thing on the list is variety.
More drum/tuning/mic/mix variations...

I\'ll capture at least as many snare articulations as on the original snares.
(edge, sweet-spot, rimshot, sidestick)

In addition to variety and nuance, I\'ll be looking to take advantage of new features in GS 3. Polyphonic triggering or random selection of regions will go a LONG ways toward greater realism and more expressive realtime playing.

I\'m also looking for ways to simplify, streamline, organize, and present the samples. Anything that makes it significantly easier for the end user...

I\'ve got a great room here at the new studio... (with 15\' ceiling), so rest assured that the new samples will take advantage of that. I\'m open to suggestions on how to best present the ambient options.
It would be most flexible to have the ambience as separate samples... adjusted thru dimensions. I\'ll do this as long as it doesn\'t mean I\'m suddenly limited to half as many velocity cross-switch points. If that\'s still the case with GS version 3, then I\'ll have to find a better way.

I\'m all for doing kicks with controllable room ambience.

I\'ve also got a set of brush/blastick samples to get finished.

Shoot me a private email if you want to get more specific.

Jim Roseberry www.studiocat.com (\"http://www.studiocat.com\")

donnie

03-05-2002, 12:35 AM

Jim,

Just curious to hear what you thought of the sound of our ride and snare....

Donnie

KingIdiot

03-05-2002, 12:39 AM

jim here\'s my Email
ashif@musicyouneed.com

I\'d love to tlak to you about the upcoming libraries.

about GS3 features, you\'re right all the new features are going to be amazing and helpful to getting better libraries...

about ambience samples. I\'m kidn of partial to how Real giga Drums presents theirs. dry, over, and room. but since you\'re doing only snare, two should be fine.

I also like the fact that they are seperate gig files. Meaning you can layer them via Ports. So you get all the articulations/mappigns you need, but can control the ambience via volume on the two idfferent ports..

You .... could.. invert the attenuation control of the ambient gig file and assign attenuation to the same controller for both Dry and ambient...then have that controller contorl the \"mix\" via one CC controller.....

I\'m not too keen on that one tho.... sometimes you want all the dry volume and some room...not really a linear crossfade between the two.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 03-05-2002).]

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 03-05-2002).]

Jim Roseberry

03-05-2002, 12:55 AM

Hi Donnie,

Very nice \'finess player\' sounds.
Very lively...

I like snappy snare drums.

FWIW, It\'s 3AM and I\'m sittin at the console tappin my foot... and mouthing (drummer thing) the traditional jazz pattern. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/cool.gif

Jim Roseberry www.studiocat.com (\"http://www.studiocat.com\")

Bruce A. Richardson

03-05-2002, 07:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:

and you and I both know that throwing a speaker in a room to get room from a Kick thats been micd inside will never sound the same as a room mic capturing the sound from the drum. Even if its not been micd inside, it doesn\'t sound the same as the room soudn of a bass drum being hit. Its that resonating tone from the drum outwards that I want.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depends. I have an 18\" PA sub that will definitely put it out there...

As far as \"just working,\" I know you were yanking my chain, but actually I still put some sampled sounds into the air and re-record them. I was being very specific about what I meant by a library that \"just works\" meaning playing musical lines in a musical way on the keyboard (or wind or perc controller). As far as actually mixing, all bets are off. I don\'t mind playing a track through a speaker and re-recording it, doing those kinds of tricks, because they don\'t take a lot of time.

Key-switching 17 different articulations on the other hand...that makes me insane, because it\'s just one of those unmusical pursuits. I\'m a player, and as much as I enjoy composing and producing I\'m happiest when I\'m actually playing music in realtime. There\'s not a better way to do some of these things right now, but my hope is that GigaStudio 3.0 will be going a LONG way towards playability.

Speaking of 3.0, sure seems like those TASCAM big bucks aren\'t speeding things up all that much...

Bruce A. Richardson

03-05-2002, 10:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
About the Articulations on hats, thats 8 seperate articulations on the hats for each hand? Articulation = openness of the hi hat? Nice! Very sweet if thats the case. must be able to get the most realistic hi hat performance in the world.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here\'s why it works well for TD/Vdrum, etc., types of controllers.

Say you have a dual zone pad with a hi-hat pedal controller on it. Map Tip/closed to pedal down center, shaft/closed to pedal down rim, tip/open to pedal up center, shaft/open to pedal up rim, and of course stomp to stomp.

That gives you 80 different, very realistically controllable hi-hat samples on ONE PAD. When/if Giga 3.0 allows multiple sequenced samples per velocity split, the left and right hand samples will be able to alternate--giving a total of 144 sample hits possible from one pad.

I realize some people won\'t have a lot of use for that level of \"performance modeling,\" but just as many people will. Even as it stands now, one can get a highly realistic hi-hat performance, since very few hits will actually trigger the same sample.

Editorial Comment Section

Many times, I think people want their parts to be \"mixed\" straight from GigaStudio. This is really not very good studio technique. I think there\'s an expectation that somehow the mixdown step is eliminated by technology, but that is very misguided. At the most, I would say that the lines between \"tracking\" and \"mixing\" are just a little more blurred, mostly that one can easily re-edit tracking issues at any point in the game.

But mixdown, in and of itself, should be a separate production step with its own rules and goals. This is where one adjusts the snare sound--not in tracking. This is where one adds or subtracts \"room.\"

Many beginning producers get very stuck in tracking, because they try to fix too much too early, getting everything perfect in MIDI. My suggestion to young producers is to really embrace the tracking stage as a purely musical pursuit--get the parts played and edited to be as musical as possible without getting caught up in mixdown issues like balance, timbre matching, imaging, etc. Then, when every part is musical, when everything really \"works\" as a composition, turn off that part of the brain, and turn on the \"mixdown\" stage.

All this **does** really relate to Purrrfect Drums, I promise...

I think when you look at what Jim has done, you\'ll see he has used every bit of GigaStudio\'s \"bandwidth\" towards getting high-quality PARTS. He\'s not trying to put the \"final mix\" on anything, rather he\'s trying to get the maximum expressive potential out of each instrument of the drumset.

THEN, when this is accomplished, MIXING the parts is up to the user...and this is where compression, gating, bit-crunching...ALL of the mixing tricks should come into play.

A finished Purrrfect Drums part should be considered no different than a \"raw\" set of drum tracks, ready to be mixed.

It is my personal belief that every sampled instrument should be approached this way, but especially drums demonstrate the phenomenon. Try it. I guarantee your mixes will be twice as good. And I guarantee you\'ll also start to see my point about expecting sample libraries to be \"too much\" out of the box. They\'re tools for the tracking process, not \"insta-finished music.\" It just doesn\'t work that way. If live players\' parts must go through the mixdown process, just think how much more critical it is for samples, which cannot be as responsive to the overall piece in realtime. If anyting, the mixdown process is doubly significant when using samples.

ryounger

03-05-2002, 03:49 PM

I didn\'t know that there could be a difference in sound between L and R hand sticking on a hi-hat.

I could be wrong about this, but being a percussionist, I find that most of the hi-hat/cymbal playing is with the right hand, while most of the snare playing is with the left. I would say at least 90 percent.

Russ

[This message has been edited by ryounger (edited 03-05-2002).]

KingIdiot

03-05-2002, 04:31 PM

It depends on the player,...and if male...possibly if they ahve a girlfriend or not.....ok bad joke

Anyhow. Yah depending on the player and how the ahts are setup there can be a distinct difference in sound between left and right hand hits,...but usually its not distinct enough for most casual listeners...and in a mix it all can disappear even more.

about left hand right hand playing... think about 16th note playing. Or even more so with rolls. Intricate playing of the high hat NEEDs this sort of sampling. More so than traditional velocity switching IMO.

Also another killer variation is hih hat width. Consider playing a hi hat pattern where you open and close the hih hat while you play 16ths. It \"moves\" open, not \"switches\" open.

Apparently Jim Nailed this sucker. Again guys.

Left/Right stuff plays abig paret with snares as well. not to mention where you hit the snare.
I\'d liek to see more than jsut \"edge\" samples with the snares Jim, but also slightly off center. It can give even more variations that isn\'t \"obvious\". Even with multiple hits, if they are always the same place, they jsut dont sound live Give me an off center hit that I can throw in that doesn\'t have too much of the overring that edge hits have, and you\'ve got the perfect middle man :

This doesn\'t have too much use for Drum Triggers unless random triggers come into play.

For sequencing tho. it would actually be a time saver for me. I dont know why, byut sequencing drums always seems much easier for me than playing...could be because I\'m a crappy drummer...but well http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

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Really...I am an Idiot

KingIdiot

03-05-2002, 11:07 PM

Bruce, the whole things about Mixdown is the reason I love RGD. i\'m able to jsut use a quick Economic kit and work out my parts, then use the three different versions (Dry, over, room) to create a sound that fits the mix. Having room/over control was a main part of mixing drums in the Studio for me. If some one came in the they recorded the overs wrong Phasing...tooclose...etc). I had to resort to using outboard reverb. And while some of the technology has gotten much better and I do think its more possible to get acceptable results. I will still always prefer the natural sound tho. Which is why I urge drum/perscusion develoeprs to use some sort of room ambience samples/techniques.

Even LOP\'s is better than nothing.....tho I still would have prefered natural ambience in a seperate sample. This also helps with placement, and is easier to get aroudn than post processing. and you know I love post processing.

18 inch sub...hmm yah would be better..but I still think it wouldn\'t sound the same.

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Really...I am an Idiot

KingIdiot

03-06-2002, 01:12 PM

Hey Russ

I completely agree with you about the left right hand sound on a hi hat thing. Which is why I said it was dependant on the drummer http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

however I dont agree with the reason of the nachine gun effect.

Its not really the cut off of the sample/hi hat, because I\'d actually want that to happen between left and right hits. BUT the reverb gets cut off too... this is one place that release triggers can come in very handy

Anyhow, what happens with left and right hits is taht you get variations of the same velocity, so this helps to fool the ear, and gets away from the amchine gun effect. So it doesn\'t REALLY have to be left and right hits, but programming it this way is the only way to get around triggering the same sample, and it actaully makes sense from a drumming perspective.

Now, for hi hat heaven I\'d lik 8 strikes of the same velocity http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif with atleast 8 different velocities.....

oh wait I did that with custom samples...I could be in heaven....if I\'d ever get to finish editing them http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

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Really...I am an Idiot

donnie

03-06-2002, 01:54 PM

Sometimes I don\'t know why I open my big mouth BUT......

The model for sampling the hi-hat should be Stewart Copeland......I\'ll just leave it at that so I don\'t give away too much.

Donnie

thesoundsmith

03-06-2002, 04:21 PM

[quote]
the reverb gets cut off too
[\\quote]

That\'s why I\'m in favor of not adding reverb to the sample (just the ambient room sound.)

Dasher

ryounger

03-06-2002, 11:26 PM

Hey King.
Not to argue with you, but I still think if a drummer is using a well matched pair of sticks and is striking the hi-hat in reletavely the same position on the cymbal, even a trained pair of ears would have a hard time hearing the difference between L and R sticking. Triggering a seprate sample would work in a performance because the first sample wouldn\'t get cut off and produce the machine gun effect. I think a better use of space would be to have L and R samples on a snare drum. on second thought, maybe that\'s what you were saying all along.

Later
Russ

ryounger

03-07-2002, 12:13 PM

Oh...(lights come on) I could never quite figure out why live performance with electronic drums don\'t lend themselves well to a live Jazz setting.....I admit that I have never played the Vdrums before in a performance setting.

I am curious if it is possable to map some samples to a drumkat and get that sound (jazz) with MIDI? That would be really sweet!!! Donnie, I think you\'re on to somthing.
I\'ll put my neck out here, but it seems to be much easier to me to get a real drum sound when I play Rock because the compressed drum sound lends itself better to sampling, rather than a Jazz sound.

Ok, I\'m ready for the flames now. :-)

Russ

KingIdiot

03-07-2002, 12:42 PM

Russ,

Its totally possible to do, but it depends on the sampler and Drum triggers. Some will allow for alternating Samples. Or if the drums are programmed to take advantage of somethign like Maestro Tools independent for each drum.

Anyhow, if you dont want to use reverb, then I thnk the samples need to have ambience release triggers. Expecially on the kick and cymbals

You also need Choke samples that could take advantage of choking cymabls....that is if they send note off messages...hmm not sure..

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Really...I am an Idiot

Jim Roseberry

03-07-2002, 02:41 PM

We\'ve got you covered with choked cymbals too.

16 velocity cross-switches to be precise.

Jim Roseberry www.studiocat.com (\"http://www.studiocat.com\")

Munsie

03-07-2002, 05:06 PM

Any demos of just the hi hat form Jim\'s kits showing all of these velocities? This sounds very nice.

Pete Leoni

03-09-2002, 12:16 PM

Damn Bruce, I forgot that old trick this is just like the recycling the 70\'s only without the drugs <G>

pete

Here\'s another one: Have a snare track without enough \"snap?\" Run a speaker feed to the studio, and place a monitor speaker on the floor. Tune up a snare drum nice and tight, set it on its side, batter head up against the speaker, and use a packing pad to cover the whole thing, so you only \"see\" the snare head facing out. Put a 57 on the snare head, and play the snare track right \"into\" the drum with this speaker, while recording the 57 signal onto another track. Mix with your original sound (try switching phase to see where it works best). Instant balls.

[/B][/QUOTE]

SteveHanlon

03-09-2002, 06:56 PM

Donnie, I would buy your drums from the demos you posted in this thread.

So when, man, are you ever gonna release the things?

Bruce A. Richardson

03-09-2002, 11:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ryounger:
Oh...(lights come on) I could never quite figure out why live performance with electronic drums don\'t lend themselves well to a live Jazz setting.....I admit that I have never played the Vdrums before in a performance setting.

I am curious if it is possable to map some samples to a drumkat and get that sound (jazz) with MIDI? That would be really sweet!!! Donnie, I think you\'re on to somthing.
I\'ll put my neck out here, but it seems to be much easier to me to get a real drum sound when I play Rock because the compressed drum sound lends itself better to sampling, rather than a Jazz sound.

Ok, I\'m ready for the flames now. :-)

Russ

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No flames, but I think that it\'s not productive to think of drum sampling as a genre-specific pursuit, or to think of mixing techniques like compression, etc., in the context of tracking methodologies like sampling.

If you want to truly model the sound of any percussion instrument, you approach it from two separate angles. First, there\'s capturing it, the sampling sessions themselves. Here, you get as many hits as possible, enough to ensure a full-velocity representation of the instrument, but also enough to ensure redundancy at every velocity level. Hence, the left and right hits, multiples at the same velocity, etc. Percussive instruments are defined most by the attack--once you\'re past that stage, the decays are remarkably similar. However, no two stick hits are alike, even when expertly played. Our ears pick up \"sameness\" of attack immediately, thus the machine gun effect.

Anything which can ensure no two stick-hits are ever repeated is a good thing. Currently, GigaStudio only provides the velocity-switching mechanism itself, unless you follow the \"compromise\" methodology of mapping different sets of hits to different notes, either played on two separate pads or keys, or \"artificially\" switched via MIDI processing. This is done either at the sequencer or MIDI input level (as in the GOS Maestro Tools for up/down bowing).

The second consideration in sampled instrument design is the mapping, or performance modeling aspect. In the case of a snare drum, you have an entire spectrum of hits, but they basically fall under the broad categories of edge, sweet spot, rimshot, and cross stick. People who want to play samplers with actual sticks need multi-zone pads to effectively performance model a drum. These days, most pads offer two zones, a center and a rimshot--which doesn\'t allow mapping of multiple \"hands\" unless one uses two pads per instrument. The keyboard alternative, of course, gives many more \"pads,\" so you can access a great deal more samples per \"instrument\" but unfortunately, the drummer\'s technique must be abandoned with this methodology and the programming becomes decidedly less performance oriented and more academic.

We are all desparately hoping GS 3.0 will bring a \"round robin\" methodology to the various velocity layers, so that more than one hit can be programmed per layer. Whether these alternate, sequence, loop, or randomize should be selectable, although randomizing would leave in the possibility of the occasional repeat, and would probably be undesirable in most settings, especially percussion.

Ideally, at least for me, a drum library should not be for Jazz, Rock, Metal, or whatever genre, except in tuning. Ultimately, a drum library is most flexible when it simply models a well-tuned, well-hit, well-recorded instrument. Applying stylistically-oriented effects, audible compression, etc., at the sampling stage is highly undesirable, since no two mixes EVER call for the same drum sound.

Again, a personal feeling here, but what I want to walk away with, after tracking drums, is the same quality of track I\'d get when recording a drummer in the studio. After that, I want to compress, effect, and mix the track, but not before. It is extremely easy to work yourself into a \"trap\" by getting too much specific personality onto a drum track before the mixdown stage. Oftentimes, the entire feel of a tune changes in mixdown--it is as much a place of artistic exploration and discovery as the writing and tracking stages. After all, a drum is a drum is a drum for the most part. What determines the style is really more about post processing than in huge differences in the raw track.

MastersMusic

03-10-2002, 05:09 AM

Sorry to join this chat late, but I just had to add my .02

I am a long time composer that is just about to make a purchase of a new turn key DAW running Gigastudio. I have also been looking to the market for several sound libraries. That is how I found this site.

Anyway, in my browser I typed the words Gigastudio samples drums, and found this.
After listening to the demo posted by Purrfect drums, I came to the conclusion the product was substandard and should not waste my time or money, even though elements of the kit were purrfectly fine :-)

I am doing all of my shopping by sampling the product through demos so I imagine most other buyers are doing the same.

Are we full yet from all the food for thought?
?

Bruce A. Richardson

03-11-2002, 01:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MastersMusic:
Sorry to join this chat late, but I just had to add my .02

I am a long time composer that is just about to make a purchase of a new turn key DAW running Gigastudio. I have also been looking to the market for several sound libraries. That is how I found this site.

Anyway, in my browser I typed the words Gigastudio samples drums, and found this.
After listening to the demo posted by Purrfect drums, I came to the conclusion the product was substandard and should not waste my time or money, even though elements of the kit were purrfectly fine :-)

I am doing all of my shopping by sampling the product through demos so I imagine most other buyers are doing the same.

Are we full yet from all the food for thought?
?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I guess that just goes to prove my point--

Demos are a completely unreliable way to choose a sample library.

If you find a better value in drum libraries for $250, I\'ll eat my discs. The cymbals alone are worth that.

Neal Acree

03-11-2002, 11:39 PM

I know we could record a whole new library with all the pairs o\' pennies that have been tossed into this pot, so I apologize for adding my $.02, but here goes: First, let\'s say just for a moment that demos are the best way to sell a library. While I mean no disrespect to Jim or his library, I feel the demo falls victim to one simple flaw. In the entire 7.58 meg file, only one kit is represented in a relatively consistant playing style. I think it would serve the product better if more than one facet of its sound was represented since the consensus seems to be that it\'s a versatile library. Even better, a demo as lengthy as this one should cover several drastically different styles of music to showcase it to all the differing tastes of the sample buying public.

Don\'t yell at me for saying this Bruce, but I think if we took a poll, the vast majority of sample buyers would say they bought libraries based on a combination of product literature, listening to demos and user reviews such as this forum. I also think a majority of sample library buyers aren\'t wealthy enough to risk purchasing a library that doesn\'t suit their needs or (please control your anger) isn\'t worth the money, and often a demo is the deciding factor. Having said that, kudos to all the developers that work so hard to make all of us sound good!