OT-banking, Wall Street, etc. [Archive]

JonFairhurst

09-15-2008, 04:09 PM

A few facts to ponder: McCain's top financial adviser is Phil Gramm. (He was fired for his "whiners" comments, but brought back a week later, unofficially.) Gramm spearheaded banking deregulation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Gramm#Banking_Deregulation_and_the_2008_Mortg age_Crisis

John McCain was a member of the Keating Five - a scandal related to deregulation that led to the U.S. Savings and Loan crisis of the 1980s and 1990s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five

I'll leave it at these facts and let you draw your own conclusions.

indianamusic

09-15-2008, 05:02 PM

Not to create a running debate - which I will not be involved in but . . .

There is plenty of blame for this mess to be noted on both sides of the aisle. This was coming for a long time and involves Democrats and Republicans. As well as people overspending - getting mortgages they knew they did not qualify for and much much more.

This crisis cannot be honestly laid at the feet of any one person.

JonFairhurst

09-15-2008, 07:26 PM

There is plenty of blame for this mess to be noted on both sides of the aisle. This was coming for a long time and involves Democrats and Republicans...

This crisis cannot be honestly laid at the feet of any one person.

When people are caught doing wrong, they (and their supporters) often make general statements like, "everybody does it", but rarely offer facts to back it up. It is a tactic to avoid direct criticism.

The fact is that McCain was involved in deregulation that led to the savings and loan crisis in which 747 S&Ls failed in the US. The cost to the American people is estimated at $160.1 billion, about $124.6 billion of which was directly paid for by taxpayers.

Gramm served on the banking committee, and helped author the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which deregulated the industry, leading directly to the current mess.

Gramm also helped lobbyists insert the Enron Loophole into the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000, allowing speculators to drive up energy costs without oversight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron_loophole

Deregulation of large industries is a longstanding core principle of the Republican Party. Clear back in 1992, this was in their platform:

"LIBERATION THROUGH DEREGULATION -- . . . We support President Bush's freeze on new regulations. We applaud his Competitiveness Council, under Vice President Quayle, for fighting the regulatory mania.."

This isn't an "everybody does it" situation. These are specific acts of high consequence by McCain and Gramm with full support of their party.

If Obama or Biden have been involved in banking scandals or ruinous de-regulatory schemes, please inform us. I am open to learning the facts.

indianamusic

09-15-2008, 07:40 PM

This forum is really not the place for this discussion.
There are plenty of other places for this - I would hate to see this board get caught up in partisan politics.

I am rather well read - and I have read plenty from many sources that will agree that the current crisis is attributable to many factors and that many politicians and yes, even every day citizens have contributed to the problem. My comment was in no way, shape or form an "everybody does it" kind of statement or excuse. It is a fact.

I am not going to make a list for you - I don't mean that to sound rude.
Read many sources - not just from one "side" only and you will quickly see that what I say is very true. BTW - Wikipedia is not always a solid source of facts. You just may be right that Obama has little to do with this issue because he, in fact, has done very little of anything at all - except make some well rehearsed speeches.

Take care and I will stop with this comment.

JonFairhurst

09-15-2008, 08:25 PM

You just may be right that Obama has little to do with this issue because he, in fact, has done very little of anything at all...Biden has a long history in the Senate, but the word "bank" isn't even mentioned on his Wikipedia page. I'm pretty sure Obama and Biden are clean on this topic.

Banks have contributed to both the McCain and Obama campaigns, but that's not surprising. Many industries hedge their bets.

klassical

09-15-2008, 11:54 PM

"This forum is really not the place for this discussion.
There are plenty of other places for this - I would hate to see this board get caught up in partisan politics." - IndianaMusic

I couldn't agree more.

- k

JonFairhurst

09-16-2008, 01:22 AM

"I would hate to see this board get caught up in partisan politics." - IndianaMusicI'd hate to see 1,000 US banks fail this year. http://www.cnbc.com/id/26710362

Not pointing out the related facts (and relying on the mainstream gossip columns, er "news" - or burying our heads in the sand) seems the lesser path to me.

Raymond62

09-16-2008, 01:33 AM

Hey guys, I only wanted to support you and wishing you luck with not too much financial losses.... don't go into some political debate, please.

Raymond

SeanHannifin

09-16-2008, 03:34 AM

My political opinions are changing now! :o :p :D :o

My parents were just relieved that they sold our old house last week ... not sure just how this will effect the housing market, which already wasn't that great. But methinks it's all ok here. :) In fact, last month we got a foosball table, so we're really in good shape.

PaulR

09-16-2008, 03:56 AM

158 years, WW1 & WW2 and the depression - all survived. And all it took some half-a $ $ ed kids who don't understand anything except buying that $50 million house in Connecticut to bring down an institution like Lehman Brothers in about 18 months.

But when it come to merchant banks and their shareholders - f**k them anyway. They deserve to go down with their ridiculous mistakes and ludicrous bonus system. In the greater scheme of things it won't make that much difference over time. When you pay people not to lose money as opposed to making it - you're in big trouble. 4500 people in London are out of a job this morning with no real prospects of getting another one anytime soon and will probably not get paid. Good! Start taking some collective responsibility and think about the ordinary man in the street when they call in your mortgage.

However. Your insurance companies are not regulated by the Fed. They are more or less overseen by the 'state' they're based in. The world had better hope that New York State can bail out AIG.

If AIG went down, that would make Lehman Bros look like a picnic and we can kiss goodbye to our collective a $ $ es.

Stephanie Pray

09-16-2008, 06:17 AM

Hey Guys,

Does anyone have any tips on selling gold? I've done some research, and it says you should get at least 90% of the day's market value.

My wife was a QVC junkie for years, and has SO much gold that she never wears! She's willing to sell it, but the gold market dropped in early September (it's coming back up now). --- Should we wait for awhile or sell now?

Thanks in advance,

Ern :|: :)

Hi Ern,
I tried to sell some gold jewelry, but ended up getting next to nothing for it, so I kept most of it. I too have a bunch of QVC etc. stuff, and it's practically worthless as far as they are concerned. If it's solid gold, then it's worth it, but most of the stuff that I tried to get rid of was likely plated and not solid, so pretty much worthless. Also, they charge to remove the stones, so that eats into the profit as well. Maybe someone else has tried it and had better luck, but I sure didn't, and was quite disappointed.
Take Care,
Steph :hp:

Styxx

09-16-2008, 11:56 AM

Washington, D. C.

A tour guide was showing a tourist around Washington, D. C. The guide pointed out the place where George Washington supposedly threw a dollar across the Potomac River. "That's impossible," said the tourist. "No one could throw a coin that far!" "You have to remember," answered the guide. "A dollar went a lot farther in those days."

Banks? There are no American owned banks. ;)

dsampson55

09-16-2008, 03:29 PM

The lending and credit markets have certainly changed. Congress and the lenders are to blame. In the 70's, with my new Engineering diploma in hand and a decent paying job obtained, I had to get my mommy to co-sign to get a Sears charge card. Anybody have that level of difficulty since 1980?

I heard an interesting expression on the news last night. One of the talking heads said that the problem with the mortgage industry is they were making "ninja" loans:

No Income, No Job or Assets

And the lenders wonder how they got into this mess :confused: If they went after the Enron guys, they should go after these guys.

dave

JonFairhurst

09-16-2008, 05:05 PM

If we blame the bank failures on irresponsible borrowers, then I guess when banks succeed, the credit belongs to borrowers as well. (As if the customers make the rules and write the contracts.)

Hey guys, I only wanted to support you and wishing you luck with not too much financial losses...

Me? I lost every penny I put into my 401k savings account last year. And I am NOT happy about it! This year could potentially be much, much worse.

Styxx

09-16-2008, 05:07 PM

I'll say things are getting ruff. I was just held up by a bank manager!

Let's pour more money into the war. ~| Dunt listen to me I don't know what I am talkingk about, darlinks.

schneb

09-16-2008, 05:35 PM

DanielB

09-17-2008, 03:16 AM

Politics discussed on a music forum...? Hmm... :confused:

RichR

09-17-2008, 07:30 AM

Gesticulator01

09-17-2008, 10:25 AM

Politics discussed on a music forum...? Hmm... :confused:

This stuff is way more important to everyone's music career here than say, the purchase of your next sampled orchestral instrument...

Think Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Bartok etc never talked politics?

I would be mightily pissed off if I had lost 401k, and would feel entitled to 'whine' so long as I did it rationally and respectfully- which I think Jon has, for example.

Garritan

09-17-2008, 12:37 PM

This stuff is way more important to everyone's music career here than say, the purchase of your next sampled orchestral instrument...The economic events unfolding do have impact upon musicians and is something worthwhile discussing.

But this is a music forum and understand that members primarily want to talk about music. Delving into politics is another matter and can often get contentious. That's why there is an Off-Topics area in the forums.

What is happening in the economy has enormous implications and its effects will be felt by all. Greenspan said a few days ago the economic situation is a once-in-a-centuy type of financial crisis. The pillars of a financial system are falling - Bear Sterns, Merril Lynch, Freddie, Fannie, Lehman, AIG.

I have been talking to a number of composers who are having a difficult time and things are not getting better. Some music companies I spoke to are not doing very well and some may not survive. Many are having a hard time.

As Raymond originally asked in the original post - "I am wondering how are members are doing"?

~GG

JonFairhurst

09-17-2008, 12:52 PM

I would be mightily pissed off if I had lost 401k, and would feel entitled to 'whine' so long as I did it rationally and respectfully- which I think Jon has, for example.

Thanks for your support, Gesticulator01,

Just to be clear, I didn't lose $401,000. In the US, the 401k is a savings plan that lets employees invest a percentage of their salary in their retirement, tax free. The money is managed by a private investment company, chosen by your employer. The employee can choose to split the investment into a variety of investment funds and bonds.

My losses this past year equaled the amount I put into the account during the past year.

I would have been better off if I had converted my whole retirement savings to cash - and spent my year's savings on sample libraries. ;)

PaulR

09-17-2008, 01:01 PM

I just wanna say that Symphony Fantastique is a great piece of music.

Anyway........HBOS looks like it's about to HAVE to be bailed by Lloyds TSB. HBOS is the UK's biggest mortgage lender by far. I am playing the violin as I dictate this message to my secretary.

Yours

Nero

Edit: "I would have been better off if I had converted my whole retirement savings to cash - and spent my year's savings on sample libraries. ;)"

I told you to do that 3 years ago Jon.

Yours

Iknoweverythingthereistoknowabouteverything.

:p

schneb

09-17-2008, 01:14 PM

My losses this past year equaled the amount I put into the account during the past year.

I have a 401K. And yes, I have seen a loss in profit. But really, doesn't this all depend on how and where you invest? For example, I have lost profit because I have everything invested in high risk/high yield plans. So my loss is actually my fault. Remember, its stocks--don't put all your eggs in THAT basket. We have ALL been warned that the skyrocketing stocks were going to have a drop. I, for one, knew that there were going to be problems. During the 90s they were giving home loans to ANYONE (I live in SoCal). I should have read the tea leaves and moved my 401K to a more low risk plan.

The economic events unfolding do have impact upon musicians and is something worthwhile discussing.

Agreed. However, I am talking the blame game and party bashing. I could just as easily blame the Clinton Administration (started in the 90s) or even more specific, the ones in charge like House Financial Services Committee Chairman Barney Frank (ie Liberal Democrat).

Economics? No problem. Party bashing? No!

Think Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Bartok etc never talked politics?

Yes, but they would have the decency to keep it in the appropriate forum.

Garritan

09-17-2008, 01:55 PM

I would have been better off if I had converted my whole retirement savings to cash - and spent my year's savings on sample libraries. ;) Hmmm..... A sample library retirement fund ~| Sounds like a good idea ;)

C J Pro

09-17-2008, 02:34 PM

I'm with indianamusic on this. I've really had enough of this General Discussion group downgrading into a party-bashing forum. There ARE two sides of every story and two sides of every blame. Make your opinion known in November and stop whining.

Politics is an unnecessary topic for discussion in this particular forum. Besides, I find that it is best to stay away from discussing politics and other untouchable subjects. When you reveal your views, people who used to be your friends becomes your enemies. Thus why I tend to stray away from responding in many sensitive topics such as politics.

Anyways, I have been watching the Dow drop hundreds of points in the matter of hours and it is quite stunning. From this situation, I draw the simple conclusion:

People become more interested in economics when they hear that the economy is in bad condition and may be failing.

JonFairhurst

09-17-2008, 05:35 PM

Economics? No problem. Party bashing? No!

To me party bashing would be name calling, slogan making, baiting and innuendo. I did none of those things. I posted facts about McCain and Gramm and their roles in banking policy.

Here are some numbers related to our economy (source: Hardball with Chris Matthews):

Inauguration Day 2000 vs Now:
* Unemployment: 4.2% -> 6.1% (In my county, 7.2% as of today's paper.)
* Budget: $281B Surplus -> ($357B) Deficit
* Debt: $5.7T -> $9.7T
* Gas: $1.46 -> ~$4.00

The debt and deficit numbers are likely to much get worse, given this week's financial failures and the related new US government liabilities.

And yes, these numbers are embarrassing to the party in power. If you think this is "bashing", so be it.

If I have these numbers wrong, please correct me and provide sources. We should all strive for transparency and accuracy.

schneb

09-17-2008, 05:59 PM

To me party bashing would be name calling, slogan making, baiting and innuendo. I did none of those things. I posted facts about McCain and Gramm and their roles in banking policy.

There is a thing called "context" and Ernstinen (above) has touched upon it. To save aggravating my RSI, I will stick to one bullet and give an example of context...

* Gas: $1.46 -> ~$4.00The Clinton Administration depleted our oil reserves to keep the price of gasoline down (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9402E5D61F3BF930A1575AC0A9669C8B 63). This a trick that makes the current administration look good, and the next look bad who is shouldered with empty emergency reserve tanks (like using an emergency credit card). Reserves were almost completely depleted by the end of his term.

Bush came in to office and sought to replenish the emergency oil reserves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Petroleum_Reserve#Filling_and_Suspending _the_SPR), but there were hurtles that slowed this process (not to mention keeping prices reasonable within the supply and demand balancing act).

The environmentalists blocked any domestic, Anwar, or offshore oil drilling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Refuge_drilling_controversy#Supporting_view s). This makes local oil men very nervous that they will dry up their own wells, so they stop pumping to preserve their companies. We then have to buy outside at jacked prices.

China started buying up all the concrete, steel, and oil in preparation for the 41-billion dollar, 2008 Beijing Olympics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Summer_Olympics#Development_and_preparation). Supply becomes scarce, prices go way up on concrete, steel, and oil. No new construction at home due to high costs, unemployed masons and steel workers (not to mention all other construction workers), oil goes up leading to layoffs everywhere and inflation. (trains, planes, autos, construction, delivery mechanisms all inflate) People don't vacation due to high prices--more layoffs. In fact, HP just announced 24,600 layoffs. No one flies--airlines suffer. More layoffs. Stocks rock and roll--more nervousness--no one is safe.

Katrina happened (http://www.cfr.org/publication/8834/katrina_and_oil_prices.html) - Refineries damaged and inoperable, delivery disrupted, and prices went up more. We just had three hurricanes in a row. Prices will be effected by this as well. All these factors and more I have not even touched upon.

Now blame one party for this and you have party bashing. You don't have to name call to bash, just take enough numbers out of context. It's easy to play the blame game. It's another thing to do some research and understand why things happened with just a little objectivity.

indianamusic

09-17-2008, 06:22 PM

Again -I really wish this discussion would take place elsewhere and let the Garritan forum return to the fun, informative and caring place that is so unusual in forums today.

Bashing or not bashing - I really don't care what people want to say, but let's do it elsewhere in numerous forums out there. What happens is we state what we believe and who we support and the end result is that it will not change one single person to our viewpoint. I just want to see it the way it was here. I now really will stay out of this, even if it continues. And just avoid reading this thread. I can read the precise same arguments for and against in other forums more suited to this type of discourse - which I do BTW find interesting and sometimes challenging.

Please.

Charles

schneb

09-17-2008, 06:35 PM

Bashing or not bashing - I really don't care what people want to say...
If you remember, Charles, I was with you on this. But the point was pushed and I wanted to show that this was not the place and gave an argument why--that there are two sides and that we should not be dogmatic either way.

I felt the same way regarding the argumentative Beijing Olympics postings, and just decided to not read that thread anymore. Maybe we should do the same here.

JonFairhurst

09-17-2008, 07:02 PM

I agree that anyone not wanting to get into economic stats and the related politics should avoid this thread, simply based on the title.

For those of us who are adult American citizens, I urge you all to not recoil at respectful political discussion. Please watch, read, learn, decide - and vote! It might not be a legal requirement, but it is your civic duty.

Schneb, yes, there is context. You've presented some facts, some opinion and some spin. I could do the same, but I'll leave it at that.

One thing I'm sure we agree upon: the current institutional failures and economic measures really stink! Things could stabilize, or they could cascade. Time will tell.

Let's all hope for the best.

Gesticulator01

09-17-2008, 07:03 PM

Just to be clear, I didn't lose $401,000.

Well thats good to hear!!
:wow:
As you can probably tell, I'm not in the US, but I can assure you just about everyone is closely watching your economy and your election, and much more closely than usual!

I accept that enough people dont want to talk about the 'whys' of the current situation here, so I'll practise the respect for that, that I profess to have, by refraining from posting any 'last word' counter-arguments.:p

(yay for me - hope others will follow).

Gesticulator01

09-17-2008, 09:08 PM

Not trying to shut anyone down, far from it - but if you really want to get active - there are political blogs galore out there. Politics even exists off the internet!:n:

PS: if its true as claimed, that there are two sides to every argument (sounds a little dogmatic to me), there is one side of this debate that really really doesnt want to talk about the economy.

("its the economy stupid!")

DarwinKopp

09-17-2008, 10:24 PM

Gesticulator01

09-17-2008, 11:04 PM

Money, politics, religion are thought to be topics best avoided in "polite" circles. However, they are great vehicles for demonstrating to the world exactly which ideologies one has absorbed and is now ready and willing to regurgitate. We live in the age of the applied Hegelian dialectic, so both sides are routinely wrong about everything. I agree, leave it at the door.

I'll agree to leave it at the door, sure. Cant go with the reductive notion that discussion of politics is just a display of identity and ego, though it certainly is that too. Theres more at stake than that, but I know, I know, other doors...

Are you talking about 'synthesis' with Hegel? Sounds like uyama (http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_uyama)and 'The End of History'. I think the last 10 years has shown that that synthesis, or static nature of history - is only a nice illusion.

I know youre being a peacemaker - but I dont like the implication that politics is just for w@nkers and its no use trying anyway. Putting it more bluntly, thats how I interpret your post. Its just too depressing.

EDIT: the link above should read F u k u y a m a. The net nanny-robot doesnt like the first 3 letters.

DarwinKopp

09-17-2008, 11:29 PM

Sorry Gesticulator01, my intent was certainly not to depress.

Politics isn't for wankers, it's an important subject. However, it typically cannot be breached constructively in a casual manner, neither in "polite circles" nor on a forum dedicated to music and sampling. And the internet is an especially poor venue in this respect. At best, posturing and acrimony are the result.

The amount of dialog and background necessary to analyze the current political situation requires a vast appreciation and analysis of historical context and the present acting power structures, as well as what change, if any, is actually possible, as opposed to theoretical. This is why there are libraries of books on this subject and many internet sites dedicated to both politics and political economy.

In practical terms, nothing good or useful can come of discussing such things here. On the other hand, unless the moderators disallow it, go for it, but in my opinion it would be counterproductive to the actual purpose of this site. I know people do not like to be censored or limited in what they can post, but sometimes self-censorship is worthwhile for the good of the community.

Gesticulator01

09-18-2008, 12:05 AM

Darwin, you make some good points.

The amount of dialog and background necessary to analyze the current political situation requires a vast appreciation and analysis of historical context and the present acting power structures, as well as what change, if any, is actually possible, as opposed to theoretical.

If we lived in an autocracy run by political scientists, economists and professional historians - well we would have to leave them to it!

Obviously we dont. The ugly argy-bargy of the less-than-perfectly informed 'man on the street' arguing - is where it really happens, and its absolutely necessary for a democracy to work effectively.

Sorry for the preachiness - but if i cant talk about politics here, at least I can talk about the validity of talking about it elsewhere, with my less-than-omnipotent political knowledge!

That Berlioz really knew how to write for orchestra didnt he!

DarwinKopp

09-18-2008, 12:41 AM

That Berlioz really knew how to write for orchestra didnt he!

And (aside from being a snappy dresser) he could conduct too!

Raymond62

09-18-2008, 01:42 AM

Hmmm..... A sample library retirement fund ~| Sounds like a good idea ;)

Only for very old music.

Raymond

PaulR

09-18-2008, 03:24 AM

.Politics isn't for wankers, it's an important subject.

You obviously missed the Liberal Democrat Conference at Bournemouth.

Tony Monaghan

09-18-2008, 02:42 PM

Political discusion is all well and good but too quickly it usually descends to blame and argument and for me becomes worthless as a topic.

I'd rather see this closed now ;)

C J Pro

09-18-2008, 02:50 PM

In the view of this forum, it shouldn't matter whether your views are liberal, conservative, centrist, libertarian, or etc. We have all come here for one goal, to compose music and share our knowledge on the subject. The lowering of ourselves to the bickering of topics outside of the original targeted area of discussion is what tends to rip communities apart and transform forums like these into the wastelands that make up many internet forums. I have seen the degradation of quality of many forums first hand (I've programmed forum solutions in the past) and it's always stunning when a community like this, who work well together, suddenly succumbs to bickering about topics that don't even belong in their area of discussion.

Now let's please bring this forum back to the original discussion on music before we have a split in the community start up. I don't want to see this community die like many others.