Brokedown and bought Cakewalks soundstage today

[KingIdiot]

SO I\'m working my *** off but couldn\'t get the want of trying this sucker out of my head. Decided to just pick it up. Ten minutes of fiddling and I can see it has a lot of potential. I like this sucker already, so thatnk you Bruce for putting the idea of using it as a recleftion generator in my head.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[KingIdiot]

Bruce...

and all who suggested this sucker over the past couple of years..


Thank you!!! Just a few minutes more and I realize this sucker is going to same me so much time! ...and make me waste so much more time ! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

It really lets me create some fullness to the sounds I have. All the trappings and absorbtion settings are going to be my favorite...then proximity settings. Not to mention using other mic modelers and

I\'d been spending so much time using multiple reverbs to get some of the simple effects I can get just by making my own settings with this thing.

Happy camper so far. Will find its problems in about an hour or so http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Lougheed]

Is this the FX3 you\'re talking about?

[KingIdiot]

Yup

Id jsut thought it was pre fader send adjustments at first, but its not.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[MrArkadine]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
Bruce...

and all who suggested this sucker over the past couple of years..


Thank you!!! Just a few minutes more and I realize this sucker is going to same me so much time! ...and make me waste so much more time ! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

It really lets me create some fullness to the sounds I have. All the trappings and absorbtion settings are going to be my favorite...then proximity settings. Not to mention using other mic modelers and

I\'d been spending so much time using multiple reverbs to get some of the simple effects I can get just by making my own settings with this thing.

Happy camper so far. Will find its problems in about an hour or so http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
King,

I\'m looking forward to hear your comments in a few days, after you have time to dig into it. Maybe even a comparison demo or two? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

I wonder if they have plans of different concert halls that one could use to build a virtual copy of them. Also, is there any resource on instrument placing on different types of orchestral settings? That would help quite a bit!

Keep us informed with your new software! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[KingIdiot]

Mr Ark.

Soundstage has been around for a while. The little bit I\'ve played with it is pretty nice.

The reverb decay actualoly isn\'t as bad as I originally thought from demos.

I still ike a little of reverb decay from another reverb on top of Soundstage, however SS lets me to some plaments out of the box.

i\'m probably going to process alot of my samples with this and then use a reverb decay for realtime monitoring. I think it will sound pretty good.

I was able to get goo dplacement of strings and fill out the sound with basic tests on some of the GOS samples.

My main concern is the Basses on this one, jsut cuz I want a bit more distance on those samples.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[pantonality]

I\'m glad to hear you like Soundstage. Does it work only with Cakewalk? I\'ve heard good things about Acoustic Mirror which comes with Sound Forge. Can anyone compare the two?

Steve

[jubal]

King,

Have you used Waves\' TrueVerb with soundstage? If so how did they sound together. I have Acoustic Mirror and just picked up Waves Native Bundle. I am doing some experimenting with S1 and TrueVerb per Bruce\'s suggestions. Pretty cool.

[KingIdiot]

I\'ve been a fan of Acoustic modeler for a few while now.

I still DO NOT think that Sound Stage is a replacement for Acoustic Modeler. You cannot emulate outdoor areas with Acoustic Modeler, nor can you emulate EQ\'s and effects from pre amps/mics/....etc

A combination of sound Stage and AM can be tricky,...but it can be done. AM has a lot of \"color\" which is what I like about it.but...you can\'t \"place\" sounds within it as easy as one would like.....or as realisticly as one would like.

Sound Stage, allows this....BUT it doesn\'t have the realistic qualities in sound that AM has....


Using both would sound like the perfect option...but its not as easy as one would think. Like bruce stated ealier SS is more like reflection modeler, which is why its so good for placement. AM is an acoustic impulse model so you get early reflections in the impulse...

So one way to get around some of the early reflection iussue is to reshape the envelope on the decay of the impulse to fade in fairly quickly after the start of the decay....then to advance the AM impulse by a few milliseconds. This still takes some tweakage to get working...and I haven\'t really gotten something I\'m happy with yet...tho its better than alot of options.


Panto,

Its a standard DX plug in. 79 bucks from The Cakewalk home page...and the FX bundle is 129. I didn\'t find that I needed any of the other stuff tho so I...for one of the first times in a while...didn\'t buy the bundle...I obiviously have too much crap to deal with...


Jubal. I use Waves RVerb now. I had Trueverb, but didn\'t like it much. RVerb is quite nice. I\'ve been spoiled by the quite good Roland Reverbs. The only thing I dont like about the roland\'s is how easily they overload, as well as how easy it is to create an ringing overtone in the low mids.

With anyhow. SS and Rverb togheter, I get a great sound. I use Rverb Subtly to add some warmth and decay to the reverb. It really depends on the project I guess.

Stilll you need to use EQ\'s and such to get the right sound. I\'ve just finished a batch process of the GOS first violins (let it run while I worked....and while I had a combination of things create loop points in GOS samples.....gotta keep you guys happy http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif )

I jsut dopped the gig file into GS. Sounds promising.

It was a combintation of effects. will have to process the rest of the sections as well and test it.

Really excited at the progress with the Basses sound I could possibly get.


Anyhow. I wish I could get these suckers to work in true no latency processing. SS shouldn\'t take too much so i can get pretty good near realtime with it I\'m sure....haven\'t tried tho... So spoiled... need the Sony unit! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif


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Really...I am an Idiot

[Bruce A. Richardson]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
SO I\'m working my *** off but couldn\'t get the want of trying this sucker out of my head. Decided to just pick it up. Ten minutes of fiddling and I can see it has a lot of potential. I like this sucker already, so thatnk you Bruce for putting the idea of using it as a recleftion generator in my head.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You\'re welcome. It\'s a great plugin, brilliant concept, but highly underrated. People\'s expextations tend to be unrealistic, something akin to buying a word processor and wondering why it doesn\'t make their writing sound like Shakespeare. When one uses it for its true purpose it\'s a lifesaver, and as you\'ve seen, there\'s so much control there you could spend days experimenting with a single placement.

I did a sound design a couple of years ago for a theater production of \"Kiss of the Spider Woman,\" and I was able to make great \"prison\" sounds by constructing a huge room with a very tiny room off in one corner. I placed the sound sources in the huge room, and put the mics in the tiny room, and it perfectly nailed the sound I\'d imagined.

It\'s a great tool for sample-based orchestration, as you\'ve discovered. You can get very disparate sources to sound as if they \"live together.\" I can\'t believe they\'ve dropped the price that much. It\'s a steal.

[KingIdiot]

It is a steal, and not that processer hungry.

I wonder if they could make an NFX version of this.

I\'m in the process of processing a bunch of samples to get the right sound out of them.

I was really surprised at what I could get out of Brass Super Section with some basic tests. It still sounds horribly compared to recent libraries, but the FF sizzle is in those samples and after throwing them into SS, you can layer them on top of the other stuff that didn\'t have it.



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Really...I am an Idiot

[pantonality]

Hi All,

I\'ve pretty much decided to break out the CC and download SoundStage tonight. I have a few last minute questions.

How does it handle stereo sources? Do you put two sources in the same place in the virtual room. How is that different from a mono source? Also what\'s the quality of the reverb tail? I\'ve heard a few reverb plugs and none has a really high quality reverb tail. I was tempted to buy Sound Forge because it includes Acoustic Mirror. This plug-in has a quality control and will render a track offline so you\'re not limited by processing power. The rendered file cvould then be imported back into Logic for mixing. Is it a rich realistic type of reverb? The reverbs I\'ve heard tended to break down between realistic and honky sounding or rich, but unrealistic.

How does it compare to Silverspike\'s Reverbit (free demo available at www.silverspike.com)? (\"http://www.silverspike.com)?\") I found the tails in Reverbit grainy.

Steve http://www.mp3.com/stevechandler (\"http://www.mp3.com/stevechandler\")
aka Ettienne http://www.mp3.com/ettienne (\"http://www.mp3.com/ettienne\")

[PeterRoos]

I guess there will probably be some more lurkers on this thread with itching plastic...

King, do you think it\'s possible AND useful to use SoundStage on multiple audio tracks in Logic (with captures, submixes, etc) and to position each track into the same sonic space (template)?
I mean, for me that\'s the missing link on this concept: a black box like SoundStage should have multiple inputs, instead of just two... (what about DirectX with multitrack/bus routing?).

More observations, conclusions, and whatever, much appreciated!

Cheers,
Peter

[KingIdiot]

Panto,

With stereo you can place a source in the room for Right and a source for left. Essentially giving you the \"width\" of the source in the room (not girth http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif )

Anyhow, say you have a stereo ensemble string sample with even left and right response. you can put the left at the far left and the right closer to the middle, to simulate a violin sections placement.

the revern tail itself isn\'t all that great. Its not as bad as I originally thought, but its not the best. You could use acoustic Mirror as well as SS. Using SS to get PLacement and Mirror for decay. the quality of the AM sound is dependant on the impulses you use.

Peter, with high setings on trapping and absorbtion, I think its perfectly possible to get sounds in the same \"sonic space\".

I\'ve done some basic tests with strings at the sample level. Then put standard reverb decay over them and it soudns quite good. Great placement, the the decay lets them \"meld\" together.

I\'m more into Using SS *** a \"placement\" Plug in, not really for its \"color\" but more for the technical things one can do. Its much easier than using multple reverbs to get the wider spacing. Rather than using jsut Pre fader sends for distance

in fact its really the same as using multiple reverbs and different pre fader sends...but just easier to do. and more \"visual\".

If you dont understand micing it can get confusing. Its not jsut \"place object here..it sounds like its coming from here\"

Like bruce expertly stated its not the human ear recieving the sound, its Mics receiving the sounds (plural). Meaning you\'re getting reflections from all different angles. Different mic types pic up different reflections. Placing a source too close to a wal may make it reflect sound oddly and not really what you\'re looking for.

Spacing the mics apart will give a wider/exaggerated stereo image.

Its all about getting in and finding the settings you like

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Really...I am an Idiot

[jubal]

Peter,

I am using Logic Audio and Soundstage...and it doesn\'t seem it supports one instance of Soundstage with multiple inputs. I have for instance 5 tracks of strings (2 of the Violin are just different techniques so they will go in the same \'space\'). In Logic I assign the Soundstage plug-in to each track and choose the same template (Orchestral Hall) with different performance positions for each. It doesn\'t seem this is the exact same thing as all of the instruments interacting with each other in the same room...but pretty close.

[PeterRoos]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jubal:

In Logic I assign the Soundstage plug-in to each track and choose the same template (Orchestral Hall) with different performance positions for each. It doesn\'t seem this is the exact same thing as all of the instruments interacting with each other in the same room...but pretty close.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah, this is what I meant. I wanted to check if this doesn\'t overload the CPU. But I think that once you have a nice, personal setting in SS, you can also just batch process some or all of the stereo submixes in Logic first to reduce the CPU load at mix time.

For my interest, can you also indicate in SS the main direction of the sound source (like French horns)?

Thanks!

Peter

[jubal]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PeterRoos:

For my interest, can you also indicate in SS the main direction of the sound source (like French horns)?
Thanks!
Peter<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I understand you correctly (french horns away from mics), no. I believe the performers are omni-directional and the plug-in takes that into account as it calculates what the stereo microphones pickup. You can change the absorption of the walls, absorption of the airspace (trappings), and frequency response of the room. Perhaps by adjusting these 3 controls you can simulate the sound your looking for with the french horns.

Also, check out this review on prorec.com...http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/b97f38ca2751fda58625680900056bad/b2310be78da4a3d8862567360056d538.

Does that help?

[PeterRoos]

Thanks very much, Jubal, that\'s exactly the background info I needed to confirm my impression of this tool. Great stuff!
peter

[dwdonehoo]

Thanks to jubal, KI, and others, I too purchased SoundStage. This was well worth the money. This is the only tool I have that so accurately places sound in stereo space. It just so happened I was mixing a song when I read the above, so I got this plug-in. Generally for a final mix to get the cleanest sound, I record all instruments into their own wave file dry, normalize, mute all the dead spaces then using various methods and plug-ins I color/process the tracks. Most of the time the final results all goes into Vegas Audio for a final mix. For this current song I did two mixes: (A)one I MAINLY used SS for verb, and with the other (B)I used my usual plug-ins and except for two of the solo instruments which I used SS. So, I have a few observations:

1) Using SS on instrument sections you should use the L-R stereo performers and carefully spread out the sound of the section.
2) A single performer is great for any solo instrument...
3)...but in all cases be sure to adjust the highs to retain warmth when needed and avoid twangy reverb sound.
4) If you have a real “wall of sound” orchestra, you really have to back off on the space echo or when all is mixed together you will be missing definition...to say the least. For really sparse instrumentation you can really make use of headroom, reflections and room size.
5) After comparing the two mixes, both came off very well after a bunch of experimentations and backtracking. The best results seem to be a combination close to (B). The (A) mix sounded very good except some instruments were too \'mono\', mainly because I did not spread them out enough in SS. Also, even on the (A) mix, I had to abandon the SS color (on brass) because the reflections were too much, and they already had some verb in their mix. More tweaking may solve that. The (A) mix without a doubt had a bit more front to back mix, which was very nice. I could not use SS for percussion because it just did not sound right: I need to work more with it for better results. SS seems best for low frequency instruments, and needed much more work with high frequency instruments to get rid of the verb twang. The final results of both mixes sound so good though, I do not know which to use: in any case, in the end, both mixes had SS in it to one degree or another, and less that when I started on the (A) mix. Bottom line: a great tool that I need to work with more to get the best out of. Your results may vary.

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Doyle W. Donehoo
Radar Music http://www.sierra-trails.com/radarmusic.html (\"http://www.sierra-trails.com/radarmusic.html\")

[laz]

does anybody know of a site that can give you dimensions of different studios to build in sound stage?

[PeterRoos]

Just did a few tests with my new SoundStage. Incredible... Definitely a must-have!
Thanks King, Bruce, dwdonehoo, Jubal...

[PeterRoos]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by laz:
does anybody know of a site that can give you dimensions of different studios to build in sound stage?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...and seating plan/layout?

[dwdonehoo]

Yeah..I would dearly like to have the dims of where the London Symphony records for films for Williams, Zimmer and others. Also some idea of the wall properties as well. That room sounds so nice...

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Doyle W. Donehoo
Radar Music
http://www.sierra-trails.com/radarmusic.html (\"http://www.sierra-trails.com/radarmusic.html\")

[PeterRoos]

What you hear on tracks recordings in venues like Abbey Road is a lot of (rather) close miking and high-quality reverbs

/ shall we start yet another thread on reverbs and room? ;-)

I\'m afraid that SoundStage won\'t help us get closer to the holy grail of emulating specific rooms (Altiverb would help), but I do think it may help us to get sections to better sit in *some* common acoustical space. Applying realistic distances between the SoundStage \"performers\" can help, I think.

Cheers,

Peter

[dwdonehoo]

Peter, Even though I have seen sessions using overhead mikes, among others, yeah, I believe you are right. Some of the most interesting sonic environments I have heard has been in some of Bill Browns recordings.
http://billbrownmusic.com/musicmain.htm (\"http://billbrownmusic.com/musicmain.htm\")

I know he uses live musicians often, but he uses midi stuff as well, but it all has a similar sonic environment, which is very smooth and spacious. It is not an orchestra recording style, but I would like to know how he does that...

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Doyle W. Donehoo
Radar Music
http://www.sierra-trails.com/radarmusic.html (\"http://www.sierra-trails.com/radarmusic.html\")

[KingIdiot]

Depth like Bill browns stuff is totally achievable with multiple techniques.

I think I\'ll be using SS more for proximity and placement issues with sounds, then use my traditional pre fader send technique with reverbs for more depth.

With the right EQ and good knowledge of how to use reverb one can get very good results



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Really...I am an Idiot

[dwdonehoo]

\"Depth like Bill browns stuff is totally achievable with multiple techniques.\"

After beating my head against this issue for the last few months, I had just about came to this (above) final conclusion about the same time you wrote this. I had most of the solution with my per track processing, but the kicker is master effects processing. After all this experimentation, I finally figured it out. SS is a player in the solution, too.

And thanks to all for their input also.

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Doyle W. Donehoo
Radar Music
http://www.sierra-trails.com/radarmusic.html (\"http://www.sierra-trails.com/radarmusic.html\")