Kawai CA91 with real soundboard?

[Jake Johnson]

Anyone played one of these? Makes me wish, again, that someone would produce a basic cabinet with a good spruce soundboard and room for speakers that could be faced towards the soundboard. There are several companies that make piano "shells" for concerts, but none of them have soundboards. Of course the alternative is to find a gutted piano, but then the weight becomes a factor. Seems as though it wouldn't be hard to create something like this that had a good sound, was solid, but under 50 pounds--the soundboard itself would be most of the weight.

[ohernie]

I'm curious, why would you want a soundboard? It seems to me that since the sound of a softsynth includes the soundboard resonances, adding another soundboard would make the sound less real. Kind of like EQ on EQ, or in this case, resonance upon resonance. Despite what they imply, a speaker is not going to interact with a soundboard the way a string does so there is no simple equivalence.

As far as shells go, here is the solution I came up with: www.ohernie.com/pianobar. Not suitable for concerts but it was a lot cheaper, is very portable, and makes a hell of a piano bar.

Ernie

[Jake Johnson]

The goal would be to get a better sense of playing an actual piano--of hearing and feeling the resonances coming from a much larger "oscillator" than the monitors or headphones. I'd be using either PianoTeq, which lets you control the amount of soundboard resonances, or editing samples to minimize the soundboard resonance. In any case, this new Kawai is getting good reviews. The soundboard and the action appear to be good.

[scope4live]

The fact that they know what a sostenuto pedal does is an amazing feat these days. )(~
I'm just about to the point where I might buy one since developers of VSTi's and sample libraries can't seem to get that feature yet.

I'm banking on a DSP developer who actually plays a Piano to save me.

[electone2007]

I'm just about to the point where I might buy one since developers of VSTi's and sample libraries can't seem to get that feature yet.

I'm banking on a DSP developer who actually plays a Piano to save me.

I own a Yamaha Clavinova CLP-240 which has sostenuto and proportional pedaling (half-pedaling).

Regarding VSTi's, you might want to know that the older piano VSTi's (Ivory, NI Akoustik) has already perfected implementation of sostenuto and catch-pedal. I own both. ...The newer ones don't have it right-- truly a step backwards, eh?

[elcabong]

There's a number of companies that make these digital baby grands. They even used to sell them at Costco. They're failry expensive, in the 3-5 grand range as I recall. They're fairly large monstrosities, that look like a real baby grand, but of course have speakers, electronics, and what not. I never understood who would want to buy one of these, but it sounds like it might work for the author of this thread.

[Pianoteq]

Anyone played one of these? Makes me wish, again, that someone would produce a basic cabinet with a good spruce soundboard and room for speakers that could be faced towards the soundboard. There are several companies that make piano "shells" for concerts, but none of them have soundboards. Of course the alternative is to find a gutted piano, but then the weight becomes a factor. Seems as though it wouldn't be hard to create something like this that had a good sound, was solid, but under 50 pounds--the soundboard itself would be most of the weight.

Hi Jake,

This is a highly personal opinion from my side. I tried the CA-91 at the Frankfurt Musikmesse last year and found that I could really feel the instrument vibrating from the 'soundboard', evoking a very acoustic feeling to it. It might be a bit exaggerated but still a very nice and unique feature. What I understand, the 'soundboard' is in fact just a vibration that gets intense if playing loudly, it will sort of tickle your finger tips and also your feet when using the pedals.

[scope4live]

Hire a couple of friends and go pick a real piano from someones house for hundreds instead of thousands.
120 USD for a tuning.
300 USD for a pair of decent mic's and use an M/S recording plug. Brainrox makes an excellent VST version of the DSP plug I use.
The sound can easily be manipulated in the DAW, and the pedals will actually work..............imagine that.
As far as a virtual Piano doing the above to use w/ a controller, I still haven't found one.
I understand your quest. I am using a CN21 provided by the Entertainment Director which is as disappointing as the virtual Pianos we are plagued with. The sos actually works, but the sound eminating from the speakers is nowhere as good as the libraries and romplers I have collected.
I predict by NAMM 2009 GAS will function as advertised....If not, I will continue to cringe as I smile. Sadly the people who listen have no clue, but total happiness has escaped me for years. Well at least until I go home and play a real Piano.

[Jake Johnson]

My impression is that there is an actual soundboard (spruce, I think) that acts just like a soundboard on a conventional acoustic piano. Not sure how the speakers are positioned, however. Pointed towards the soundboard?

[ohernie]

So the duty of the soundboard is more that of a monitor i.e. for the satisfaction of the performer rather than the audience?

Ernie

[Jake Johnson]

ohernie: It would depend, I think, on how the piano was used. If played at home, and placed a few inches from a wall, the sound dispersal should be like that on an acoustic upright. Since it's a vibrating plane, it will disperse the sound all along the wall, which acts as a secondary soundboard, and directly towards the performer at the same time. Possibly a wider, thicker sound than one just coming from two speakers. Assuming that a good, well-mounted soundboard was used. (The ads say the soundboard is spruce.) I'm not sure how it would be used in a recording or on stage--it would give you another micing option--it has line outs, but you could also put additional mics near the soundboard. (I've read that some people like to put mics there, not alone, but in conjunction with hotter mics over the strings.) On the other hand, I could see where it could be a problem. If the samples were recorded with little soundboard resonance, so the physical soundboard could play its role, the outs might sound a little brittle--all strings, in other words. I understand what you're saying about the interaction with the string, however-since there are no strings, the soundboard can't be coupled to the bridge and thus the strings. Thus the soundboard is only getting the part of the string vibration that is moving through the air. Sounds as though it might not work well. On the other hand, Given the choice between having a soundboard and not having one, I'd like to try one that does have it: It has stereo line ins, so you could presumably play a sample library through it. The Kawai page for it has a photograph showing the full-sized soundboard: http://www.kawai.de/ca91_en.htm .

[David Ferris]

Jake,

On another forum there have, IMO, been too many posts re problems with Kawai's actions. Sticky or wobbling keys. When the MP 8 was introduced, I noticed similar posts on a German-language forum. (Yes I do spend too much time on the 'Net.) If you buy a Kawai DP, please be certain that you know the seller's return policy.

Yamaha's iAFC is supposed to adjust sound to room conditions.

Haven't tried either newer Kawais or iAFC, but have had good experience with the actions in two earlier Yammy stage pianos.