Please help me choose a Piano sample for GigaStudio

[respho]

Hello, I got GigaStudio a few weeks ago and have been having fun experimenting with various piano samples. Now I am looking for a sample that would be a great addition to my collection.

I accept that there is no single \'perfect piano\' but I believe there exists a collection of good pianos which will make up a great toolbox.

I only play piano solo, New Age style music, just like the ones you can find on the Bardstown Audio mp3 demos page. I never play jazz. I play classical but don\'t think I am good enough to want to make any classical recordings anyway. If you care to find out what kind of music I prefer you are welcome to check out my home page www.jamespun.com (\"http://www.jamespun.com\") and look under the \'piano concert\' page.

I have the following already:

GigaPiano (obviously)
Trachtman C 8-layer
EastWest Steinway B
EastWest Bosendorfer 275

Right now I am only planning to get more GigaStudio libraries. I have decided against getting a hardware sampler or a digital piano. Here are some other GigaStudio pianos in the market that I have considered:

Malmsjo (this seems very popular but I think it sounds too mellow for me)
Post Piano Suite (I haven\'t found a MP3 demo that sounds remotely like a piano yet)
VR Sound (doesn\'t sound good to me)
Bolder Sounds Yamaha and Steinway D (I always wanted a Steinway D but 2 layers is too little, I don\'t think this bank was intended for GigaStudio in the beginning)
The Grand VSTi (this sounds very good but I still want a GigaStudio format piano)

These are the ones I am consider getting seriously:

Bardstown Bosendorfer Imperial (awesome NewAge demos recently added, has all keys sampled, 9 layers)
Holy Grail (sounds good and seem to provide control to components of the piano sound, very expensive though)
Post Pristine Piano (this seems very popular but I am not convinced by the MP3s I heard yet)

First I would like to know am I overlooking some very good GigaStudio piano libraries? Or is that all the market has to offer right now?

So far my favourite is EW Bosendorfer. I am wondering if the Bardstown Bos is going to provide a good alternative to the Bos sound I have.

Any help or discussion is greatly appreciated!

[respho]

So is Michael Post going to release a GRANDIOSO sample set? Is it different from the Post Piano Suite??

[Michiel Post]

Hi
visit http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/Forum3/HTML/001762.html (\"http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/Forum3/HTML/001762.html\")
for more info and a link to the demo\'s of Grandioso.
It is a new set of recordings, noting is the same as in the PPP (Post Pristine Piano) or PPS (Post Piano Suite).

[respho]

Hi Michiel, thanks for the reply, I am glad to hear from the master himself!

I am listening to demos of the GRANDIOSO and I now know that it\'s different from the PPP or PPS. I am looking forward to the final product.

Two questions: How much is it going to cost? And what did you do to overcome the bugs/dimensions limitations of the GigaSampler? I remember reading Warren Trachtman\'s webpage describing GigaSampler dimensions problems that de-motivated him from making a many-layer sample set like yours.

Thanks.

[Dr. Hook]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by respho:
Hello, I got GigaStudio a few weeks ago and have been having fun experimenting with various piano samples. Now I am looking for a sample that would be a great addition to my collection.

I accept that there is no single \'perfect piano\' but I believe there exists a collection of good pianos which will make up a great toolbox.

I only play piano solo, New Age style music, just like the ones you can find on the Bardstown Audio mp3 demos page. I never play jazz. I play classical but don\'t think I am good enough to want to make any classical recordings anyway. If you care to find out what kind of music I prefer you are welcome to check out my home page www.jamespun.com (\"http://www.jamespun.com\") and look under the \'piano concert\' page.

I have the following already:

GigaPiano (obviously)
Trachtman C 8-layer
EastWest Steinway B
EastWest Bosendorfer 275

Right now I am only planning to get more GigaStudio libraries. I have decided against getting a hardware sampler or a digital piano. Here are some other GigaStudio pianos in the market that I have considered:

Malmsjo (this seems very popular but I think it sounds too mellow for me)
Post Piano Suite (I haven\'t found a MP3 demo that sounds remotely like a piano yet)
VR Sound (doesn\'t sound good to me)
Bolder Sounds Yamaha and Steinway D (I always wanted a Steinway D but 2 layers is too little, I don\'t think this bank was intended for GigaStudio in the beginning)
The Grand VSTi (this sounds very good but I still want a GigaStudio format piano)

These are the ones I am consider getting seriously:

Bardstown Bosendorfer Imperial (awesome NewAge demos recently added, has all keys sampled, 9 layers)
Holy Grail (sounds good and seem to provide control to components of the piano sound, very expensive though)
Post Pristine Piano (this seems very popular but I am not convinced by the MP3s I heard yet)

First I would like to know am I overlooking some very good GigaStudio piano libraries? Or is that all the market has to offer right now?

So far my favourite is EW Bosendorfer. I am wondering if the Bardstown Bos is going to provide a good alternative to the Bos sound I have.

Any help or discussion is greatly appreciated!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Having heard and used many of the piano samples out there, I can whole-heartedly say that the Bardstown Audio Bos. is simply the best there is. With the articulation file, it will give you everything that you could possibly want. Yes, it is a little pricey, but in this instance, you really do get what you pay for. If you have a thing for the Bos. pianos in general, this one (BA)leaves the EW Bos. in the dust.

[respho]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by john g:
Just noticed that you like the EW BOS. Sam, who contributes quite a bit to this site also likes that sample. I have it, but find the sound odd, although the bass is definitely more solid than the EW Steinway\'s. Although I think Post\'s piano sample sounds the best as an overall piano (based on the mp3s), the newer Bos seems to me an improvement on the EW Bos, again, judging on the basis of the mp3s. So you might want to check it out.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which Post library are you referring to here? Are you talking about the upcoming Granduiso library?

BTW can someone tell me who made the other Post pianos? The PPP (Post Pristine Piano) and PPS (Post Piano Suite)? Are they by Michiel Post as well?

[respho]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by john g:
Just noticed that you like the EW BOS. Sam, who contributes quite a bit to this site also likes that sample. I have it, but find the sound odd, although the bass is definitely more solid than the EW Steinway\'s. Although I think Post\'s piano sample sounds the best as an overall piano (based on the mp3s), the newer Bos seems to me an improvement on the EW Bos, again, judging on the basis of the mp3s. So you might want to check it out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which Post piano are you referring to? Are you talking about the upcoming Granduiso piano or the other Post pianos? BTW who made those pianos? PPP (Post Pristine Piano) and PPS (Post Piano Suite)?

[john g]

I\'m referring to the piano which is about to be released. Sorry if I wasn\'t clear.

J.G.

[MidiDimwit]

Respho, nice work on the samples. I\'m particularly interested in sample1. I can\'t imagine it\'s not the real deal, so give it up. What are you playing?

[Lougheed]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>:
The demos suggest that that\'s where I\'ll be putting my money next.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, based on listening to the demos, and given the requirements of the type of music I compose and record. I just love the sound of the Steinway! The new Post Grandioso piano is going to fill a void in my studio!

(I have been using the modified version of the Steinway B, but it is time for a change - and I agree with the limitations you pointed out, John).

[Robert Raguel]

John G,

In a previous post in this thread you said:
... I put the EW Steinway at the top, by far, notwithstanding it\'s tinny character which MUST be filtered out to make the piano usable.

How do I do this (I own GStudio96), or is there an articulation file I can get which achieves this?

I don\'t have the EW Steinway B but I\'m seriously considering it.

Thanks in advance for your expertise!

-- Robert

[Michiel Post]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by respho:

Two questions: How much is it going to cost? And what did you do to overcome the bugs/dimensions limitations of the GigaSampler? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Price is $295. We did the 16 layers of velocity in one Gig and then added another Gig file that must be layered for further dimensions, like release triggered ambience.
This way you can use as many as 64 dimensions if needed. From what I remember Warren was mostly disappointed on the velocity response issue. The limitations of the dimensions can be solved. I think most of his issues have been solved in the mean time.
Michiel

[john g]

Post\'s new piano isn\'t available quite yet, I assume.

The demos suggest that that\'s where I\'ll be putting my money next.

BTW, I have all the samples you mention and a few more. I put the EW Steinway at the top, by far, notwithstanding it\'s tinny character which MUST be filtered out to make the piano usable. Even then, there are associated problems, like the nasal quality of the bass from c below mid c to mid c.

Previous Post pianos have always struck me as \"headed in the right direction.\" The most recent seems to me to finally \"get there.\" The sound seems to avoid the tinny-high-end and nasal-middle pitfall that besets all piano samples currently on the market.

I once said that current samples could equal the quality of the very best real recorded pianos out there. I was slightly wrong. Current standards put the best samples at the level of the average to good real piano recordings, but not the very best.

I\'m hoping that Post\'s sample can take us that extra step into the big leagues. A high-end verb hardware for pc would put the icing on the cake, but other than SBlive (which is a decidedly middle-range quality verb), there\'s nothing out there.

Too bad.

http://www.mp3.com/stations/bach_wtc_1_part1 (\"http://www.mp3.com/stations/bach_wtc_1_part1\") http://www.mp3.com/stations/wtc2 (\"http://www.mp3.com/stations/wtc2\")

Just noticed that you like the EW BOS. Sam, who contributes quite a bit to this site also likes that sample. I have it, but find the sound odd, although the bass is definitely more solid than the EW Steinway\'s. Although I think Post\'s piano sample sounds the best as an overall piano (based on the mp3s), the newer Bos seems to me an improvement on the EW Bos, again, judging on the basis of the mp3s. So you might want to check it out. I agree that the Kawai sample or \"The GRAND,\" I think it\'s called, is very impressive. Too bad there\'s no giga version.


[This message has been edited by john g (edited 02-11-2002).]

[respho]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MidiDimwit:
Respho, nice work on the samples. I\'m particularly interested in sample1. I can\'t imagine it\'s not the real deal, so give it up. What are you playing?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No No No, they were real piano recordings. Both samples were recorded on real pianos. Those samples weren\'t played by me even. It\'s not that I cannot play the piano, but I haven\'t been priviledged enough to make my own high-quality recording. I just put those samples on the net to let people know what kind of music I shall be playing for the concert (not to be mistaken for jazz)

The first one is probably recorded on a Yamaha, the second one is a Bosendorfer Imperial, that\'s partially why I am biased towards the EW Bos sample set.

[john g]

Further to another post about filtering, I don\'t have Gigastudio, but I understand that it has much more flexible filtering capabilities than Gigasampler. What you want to do, essentially, is put a LOWPASS filter on the notes above mid-C. Some folks try adding another piano sample as well, like the MAG, to soften the tone of the Steinway.

J.G. That\'s basically what I do in the following Bach mp3s http://www.mp3.com/stations/bach_wtc_1_part1 (\"http://www.mp3.com/stations/bach_wtc_1_part1\") http://www.mp3.com/stations/wtc2 (\"http://www.mp3.com/stations/wtc2\")

ps: Adding verb, adjusting (particularly compressing) the midi file, and converting to mp3 format will alter the tone of the piano sample considerably. Mp3 conversions to 128 kps kill the high end, at least to my ears.

[john g]

Replying to myself, has anyone found that the additional filtering capacities of Gigastudio really improve the sound of samples like the Steinway B, or the EW Bos?

[Michiel Post]

Shure, Gigastudio offers a lot of options over gigasampler. Not only the filter, reverb and such, but the whole midi control fader section, the mixer with it\'s aux sends, it\'s all a lot better than gigasampler. I use the NFX EQ a lot when listeningto piano. It is a fast and easy tool to create eq presets with the piano performances.

[Robert Raguel]

Thanks, John G for your filtering details! Now I understand you\'re essentially talking EQ.

The terms HIGHPASS and LOWPASS are always a bit counter-intuitive. HIGHPASS, I believe, lets the high frequency pass, that is, cut off the low frequencies. Therefore HIGHPASS equals Low band cutoff?

Thanks again, this forum is really wonderful for those of us in the learning mode!

-- Robert

[Robert Raguel]

john g ...

I\'ve been listening to your Bach Well Tempered Clavier MP3s (link 3 posts back) and I\'m quite impressed.

What piano sample library are you using? It sounds like a Steinway (kind of mellow and rich) or maybe the EW Bos?

Thanks for the talents and artistry!

-- Robert

[john g]

Lowpass filtering cuts the high end; highpass filtering cuts the low end. And that\'s about all I know. The GS manual is USELESS for technopeasants like myself. I still haven\'t figured out what the various filtering curves (\"linear\" \"non-linear\") amount to, after all these years. I only know that they sound different and require different filtering settings.

Re my Well-tempered: I\'m starting to really hate the tone I\'ve evolved over time. Sounds fake to me, although all the \"high profile\" Bach pianists out there have been completely fooled.

It may be that my ears are accomodating too much to my own sound. I\'m not sure. I listened to my stuff through a friend\'s cheapo Canton speakers. Sounded horrible. Then we played a super-engineered live recording of a \"real\" piano through the same bad speakers. It sounded MUCH better than my stuff. Mine sounded \"tinny\" by comparison. Meanwhile, back home the stuff sounds great over my Kef Raymond Cooke Ref speakers and on my Mackie monitors, as well. Go figure.

Anyhow, the trick to taming the Steinway B is to ADD other piano samples on top. So to soften the high end of the Steinway try layering the MAG or the Gigapiano on top.

Also, as already stated, different reverbs dramatically alter the tone in innumerable ways.

Still waiting for a high-end verb card for pc. That\'ll make a huge difference to the quality of the material us pc-users are putting out.

Also waiting for Post\'s Steinway, which I\'m hoping will \"solve\" some of the issues that have plagued piano samples to date.
http://www.mp3.com/stations/bach_wtc_1_part1 (\"http://www.mp3.com/stations/bach_wtc_1_part1\") http://www.mp3.com/stations/wtc2 (\"http://www.mp3.com/stations/wtc2\")

J.G.

[Techmusicom]

Hi - piano lovers !!!!!-

I\'m french

first sorry for my poor english -

My first Piano - i bought - was the Eastwest
Steinway B (www..com)

This Piano is very realistic. And it sound
like a realistic Steinway B !!!!!

I love Steinway - the most beautifull Piano
around he world.

The Stradivarius of the Piano.

Warm Sound - crystal - dynamic.

After that i bought other Piano to see
the difference :


the \"Post Pristine Piano\" is very bad.
The ppp (pianissimo)velocity are not realistic.
the ppp samples sound like a electric Piano.

i\'m a specialist of Steinway Sound - and
this Steinway D sound not like a real Piano !!!

The Post Steinway D of the Piano suite is bad too.


the best is 1)Steinway B Eastwaest


second position 2)\"the Grand\" Steinberg
a EX-1 Kawai concert Piano


if i have a davice don\'t buy the Eastwest
Bosendorfer : this sound like a Piano expander/synthe

Gigapiano : it\'s a Yamaha not tuned !!!!

Malmsjo Piano : just good for Schumman music !!!!! Some very bad layers

Steinway B is the best

Regards,

Olivier B.

[dafrica]

To Me the Gigapiano sounds realistic. I love the way it sounds, but the big problem is that it is not tuned, and I can hear it especially on the higher register. This is what puts me off from the Gigapiano.

I wish they would redo this Piano, with correct tunings, because the bottom registers are powerfull!

So I think Gigapiano could be a great sample , but due to bad tuning and too much brightness on the top register, it is not!

[Bardstown Audio]

Hello Techmusicom,

The soon to be released Grandioso Steinway Model D is a completely different piano than the other Post pianos which you have made reference to. This soon to be released piano of Michiel Post shows a great deal of promise and very high quality.

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")



[This message has been edited by Bardstown Audio (edited 02-13-2002).]

[Z6]

People get so down on the Gigapiano. Remember, it was the first. And remember how it compared to anything else on the market at the time - and it\'s free. It\'s still damn good. I was on the verge of buying an EMU Rompler and a 16MB piano board - now I have Gigapiano instead.

Each new generation of \'giga\' pianos seems to improve on the last. Kip\'s new Bosey and Michiel\'s new Steinway will surely set a standard. And the Malmsjo just proves how powerful this techology is. Who the hell ever heard of a Malmsjo before? Hans gave us a beautiful alternative to those wonderful, gigantic pianos that normal humans almost never have access to; but access to the Malmsjo is even more amazing to me.

Saying that it\'s only good for this or that music shows how spoiled we are now. Time was, we just wanted something that didn\'t sound \'tinny\'. Now we need a Steinway for Beethoven, a Bosey for our grand jazz, and a Malmsjo for intimate pieces. No pianist in history was ever taken care of as well as Giga users are taken care of. If a concert pianist arrived at a gig and got to play the Malmsjo, I doubt he\'d complain (neither would a jazz or new ager). My god, it\'s only six foot! I need a twenty foot piano for my bulging cadenzas!

I\'m looking forward to Worra\'s new Malmsjo (should he decide to accept the assignment) but I\'m not sure I can wait.