Demo of Maartens Timpani and Trumpets

[Thomas_J]

Here\'s a quick (and cheesy) demo that I did for my friend Maarten with his lovely timpani and trumpets sounds. I think the sound of these instruments beats Advanced Orchestra and Miroslav by faaaar.
The trumpets still can\'t handle double tonguing but hey, it\'s free!!
http://finjaco.home.online.no/Jazz2k_-_SAMdemo2.mp3 (\"http://finjaco.home.online.no/Jazz2k_-_SAMdemo2.mp3\")


Everybody who hasn\'t downloaded these .gigs, please go to www.maartenspruijt.com (\"http://www.maartenspruijt.com\") and get them.

Thomas

[Thomas_J]

Btw: http://finjaco.home.online.no/Jazz2k_-_Victory.mp3 (\"http://finjaco.home.online.no/Jazz2k_-_Victory.mp3\") is the same piece, featuring real trumpets double tonguing in the beginning. Are there any libraries out there that can do this kind of double tonguing (or fast repetitive attacks without getting a machine gun effect? Can DD solo brass do this?)

(I just updated this file. It has less reverb and better trumpets now.)

Thomas

[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 02-08-2002).]

[PeterRoos]

Hey Thomas,

As usual, great stuff! Including lots of reverb (room?) and a special Thomas_J stereo image (hehe).
About the last, do you do this for a specific reason?

Keep posting! (I like to expand my personal T_J collection)

Cheers,
Peter

[Thomas_J]

Hehe, thank Maarten. He\'s the one with the cool samples http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif About the Stereo Image; I just go with what I think sounds good. This is my trademark sound http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Check out the new http://finjaco.home.online.no/Jazz2k_-_Victory.mp3 (\"http://finjaco.home.online.no/Jazz2k_-_Victory.mp3\") for a better rendering of the musical idea.

Thomas

[donnie]

Ok, I\'m not trying to get anything started again BUT is anyone else confused here?

Everything expect the trumpets and timpani is exactly the same in the \"real\" piece and the sequenced piece which means that the first one just has Marteen\'s trumpets and timpani layered over a real orchestra track.

Isn\'t this what I was saying Thomas has been doing all along and everyone jumped on me about?????

Also, since this is a real track (with a couple of midi instruments over it) who really wrote it and what is it from?

Donnie

[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 02-08-2002).]

[Thomas_J]

Sorry to confuse you Donnie. It\'s not a real orchestra. I just sequenced it in cakewalk a couple of hours ago. Please don\'t start this again! The trumpet double tonguing example in \"victory\" is just a short doubletonguing sample, timestretched, panned and pitched to fit.

I wrote the music. It\'s from my mind.

Thomas

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by donnie:

Isn\'t this what I was saying Thomas has been doing all along and everyone jumped on me about?????

Also, since this is a real track (with a couple of midi instruments over it) who really wrote it and what is it from?

Donnie

[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 02-08-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


It\'s from Heodelbrueger\'s 19th Symphony. Heodelbrueger was criticized throughout his life for composing vibrant works, but refused, almost religiously, to include trumpet or timpani parts. When asked about this strange idiosyncrasy, he replied always with the same instcrutable phrase: \"Timpanists get my gonads, and I don\'t like trumpeteers one bit.\"

Earlier in his career he had covered up his aversion to these instruments by claiming always that the timpani parts fell in a puddle on the way to the concert hall. But music theorist and raconteur Donald E. King was quick to tumble to Heodelbrueger\'s ruse.

To this day the music of Heodelbrueger is little known, although there was a revival of sorts by a group of Norwegian samplists (later charged with trumpet burgling in the first degree) who saught to bring Heodelbrueger the praise he richly deserved.

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by donnie:


... which means that the first one just has Marteen\'s trumpets and timpani layered over a \"\"\"real\"\"\" orchestra track.

Isn\'t this what I was saying Thomas has been doing all along and everyone jumped on me about?????

Also, since this is a \"\"\"real\"\"\" track (with a couple of midi instruments over it) \"\"\"who really wrote it\"\"\" and what is it from?

Donnie

[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 02-08-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hey Thomas! How\'s that for a compliment? The talent police are on their way and you\'re going to be charged with possession of too many cool chops (with intent to entertain).

You\'ll go down for this; but it\'s a fair cop guv.

[Robert Kral]

Cool examples. great free samples. entertaining thread all round!

What snares are you using, string fast runs? flute runs?

I think you should solo JUST the double tongue sample (all .05 seconds of it) and then we can all guess for ourselves where it came from! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Thomas_J]

Hehe Z6. Thank you for your comments http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Lets not get carried off topic again. This is about Maarten and his wonderful gesture of making these cool samples available to the public for free!

Robert: AO piccolo runs, prosonus strings and costum snares.

Thomas

[KingIdiot]

Jsut topoint out. Thomas did say Real Double tounging, nothing about it being a \"real orchestra\"

Besides it sounds fake to me http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

This is the first time I dont agree with Thomas\' reverb

However I;m going to start buying \"loop\" orchestral libraries because of this. Maybe some of the Sonic foundary stuff has double tounging samples I can cut around and mess with.

I\'m also going to consider Smart strings for runs now. Do time stretching and building to layer over GOS.

Its been something I avoid jsut because its tedious and I\'m lazy.....but I realise now that its needed http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[Maarten Spruijt]

Though Thomas already explained it, let me make this 100% clear: http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

The demos are compositions and productions of Thomas. He wrote them.

Both demos are 100% virtual orchestrations and feature my trumpets and timpani. NO REAL ORCHESTRA IN THE BACK, COME ON!

The 1st demo uses my trumpets for the first fast trumpet phrase.

The 2nd demo uses a trumpet sample phrase (from Thomas) for the first fast trumpet phrase, then switches back to my trumpets.

That\'s it. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Maarten

P.S.: Thomas perhaps you should tune the 2nd long note in the trumpets. It\'s a little too sharp. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Maarten Spruijt (edited 02-08-2002).]

[PeterRoos]

Hi Thomas,

To let you hear some Dan Dean staccato notes I have edited a short theme for DD\'s solo TR and TB. First trumpets, then the bones, then together, etc.

It\'s at the top of this page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~deltaw (\"http://www.xs4all.nl/~deltaw\")

also a (very) dry version!

Cheers,
Peter

[A_Sapp]

Hey Thomas, you\'re works are incredible, no doubt about it, but I mean, have you created anything subtle though? I mean, not so epic and large? Sometimes delicate peices are much harder than a full blown score, which it seems you\'ve got it down to the teeth. Are you currently working for any type of company using your talents? I had my works sent to 4 companies as another peice for their, \"music libraries.\" It\'s not much, but hey, it\'s a start, amen?

[Chris Beck]

You tell an entertaining tale, Z6, but let\'s be serious for a moment. We all know Thomas could have used Waves\' DeBrasser and DeTimper plugins to strip the trumpets and timps from any orchestral recording. Fess up Thomas.

- Chris


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Z6:

It\'s from Heodelbrueger\'s 19th Symphony. Heodelbrueger was criticized throughout his life for composing vibrant works, but refused, almost religiously, to include trumpet or timpani parts. When asked about this strange idiosyncrasy, he replied always with the same instcrutable phrase: \"Timpanists get my gonads, and I don\'t like trumpeteers one bit.\"

Earlier in his career he had covered up his aversion to these instruments by claiming always that the timpani parts fell in a puddle on the way to the concert hall. But music theorist and raconteur Donald E. King was quick to tumble to Heodelbrueger\'s ruse.

To this day the music of Heodelbrueger is little known, although there was a revival of sorts by a group of Norwegian samplists (later charged with trumpet burgling in the first degree) who saught to bring Heodelbrueger the praise he richly deserved.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[PatS]

Thomas and/or Maarten:

Now I\'m confused (though it takes little to confuse me these days): Who played the \"trumpet sample phrase . . . for the first fast trumpet phrase\"? I thought you were talking about trumpet samples from Thomas\' private library. But now Maarten is talking about a \"sample phrase.\" Do you mean that Thomas used a recorded phrase? Or do you mean he created a phrase based on the note samples from his library? I think you meant the latter. (Even as I write these words, the level of confusion grows. Sorry for not being much help. I think I\'ll sip my coffee now. Then I\'ll try parsing the sentence \"He gave her dog biscuits.\" http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif)

Anyway, the music is quite nice. I\'m always amazed by what one can do with a relatively simple harmonic progression (including the occasional secondary dominant).

Now, KingId... (as opposed to KingEgo and KingSuperego . . . OK, never mind--even my kids don\'t get it): You mentioned the license-free libraries. Are they any good? I noticed Sonic Foundry has four orchestral loop libraries in their Orchestral Series. Loop-based composing is quite foreign to me, but if one could extract interesting snippets from a given loop and then layer them as Thomas proposed elswhere, it might be worth the effort. (Of course, a good nap might be worth the effort.)

Pat


[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 02-08-2002).]

[Thomas_J]

Thanks Peter, some nice music you\'ve got there http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Sounds like Dan Deans Brass is good for double tonguing. I like the trumpet but not the trombone and tuba though.

Aaron: Hehe I guess you could say I\'m one of those who headbangs to orchestral scores. I like it loud and epic, and believe you me, it\'s just as hard to make it loud and epic than it is to make it subtile and mellow. I\'ve done my share of mellow and minimalistic orchestral music as well. Don\'t appeal that much to me. I guess it\'s partly because I like the idea of having a whole orchestra at my fingertips, and they wont complain when I have the horns play FFF 2 minutes straight http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I write too much mellow stuff for my school assignments. They are usually performed by student wind or strings ensembles. That way I\'m forced to compose constrained. It\'s a good exercise, but my heart lies in full bodied orchestrations.

Thomas

[A_Sapp]

You da man.. man. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
Thanks Peter, some nice music you\'ve got there http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Sounds like Dan Deans Brass is good for double tonguing. I like the trumpet but not the trombone and tuba though.

Aaron: Hehe I guess you could say I\'m one of those who headbangs to orchestral scores. I like it loud and epic, and believe you me, it\'s just as hard to make it loud and epic than it is to make it subtile and mellow. I\'ve done my share of mellow and minimalistic orchestral music as well. Don\'t appeal that much to me. I guess it\'s partly because I like the idea of having a whole orchestra at my fingertips, and they wont complain when I have the horns play FFF 2 minutes straight http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I write too much mellow stuff for my school assignments. They are usually performed by student wind or strings ensembles. That way I\'m forced to compose constrained. It\'s a good exercise, but my heart lies in full bodied orchestrations.

Thomas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Thomas_J]

PatS: Heh I warned you about \"cheesy\" content http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif The harmony-progression is something I would normally puke all over if I heard it in a score, but once again I must state the reason why I posted this demo: To make more people curious about Maarten\'s trumpet and timpani samples. To h*ll with the music, I know it sucks http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

About the trumpet confusion: The triplet is a costum sampled phrase. Seeing that it was impossible to recreate useful trumpet double tonguings like that (trumpet is my secondary instrument), I used a phrase of double tonguing. It is quite versatile. You can pitchshift it, timestretch/shrink/expand it and it still sounds quite good.

Stay away from loop based compositions http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Thomas

[PatS]

Actually, simple harmonic progressions are well-suited for orchestral flourishes and driving rhythms, among other things. Don\'t apologize for using them.

I remember reading a dreadfully boring treatise (1799) in Yale\'s rare-book music collection for a Theory and Aesthetics course (you guessed it: Classical T&A). The author went to great lengths to distinguish the style of writing for an orchestra from a chamber ensemble or a soloist. His conclusion? When writing for orchestra, keep the musical structure simple. I guess R. Strauss, Schoenberg, Ives, Carter, Wourinen, and their ilk never read that treatise, eh? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 02-08-2002).]

[KingIdiot]

Pat

From what I\'ve heard of the Sonic Foundry Orchestral CDs, I think they\'ll become useless really quick. Howeever I\'m sure I can do some editing with them to pull out things I could layer in and create my own instruments from.

\"smart strings\" from Siedleczeck looks like it might be a good thing to have to add realism to runs. Will need to do some time stretching to get them to fit right, but shouldn\'t be an issue.



------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Beck:
You tell an entertaining tale, Z6, but let\'s be serious for a moment. We all know Thomas could have used Waves\' DeBrasser and DeTimper plugins to strip the trumpets and timps from any orchestral recording. Fess up Thomas.

- Chris


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hee, hee.
You have a point Chris. So I sent off the MP3 to one of my contacts at the CIA\'s Special Music Crimes Unit.

As we speak, some of the world\'s top forensic musicologists are examining the evidence.

We\'ll know soon enough whether this was Heodelbrueger\'s long lost 19th or whether Thomas is, in fact, the dastardly head of a gang of Norwgian trumpet burglars that has plagued the music world for years.

I believe we should forget about sending a SWAT team, and just set Buffy the Vampire Slayer on him.

There is no crime greater than this. To pass off a sampled trumpet as a real trumpet, or a real trumpet as a sampled trumpet. To feign great blarfs when he should rightfully be producing simple toots, is unforgivable.

Donnie, the world is in debt to you for your dogged determination on this matter. Without your obsessive poring over every note, every phrase, every nuance of Thomas\'s work, none of this would be possible. I thank you. We all thank you.

I have written also to Heodelbrueger\'s son, Klumpett, on this matter and though now in his nineties, his nurse (a handsome woman by the name of Mrs. Kratchet) said he swore he would arm wrestle Thomas into submission for blighting the memory of his dear father.

As someone funny once said: \"This is the
original thing that the barrel of monkeys was more fun than\".

[ChrisAxia]

Thomas, well done as usual. Excellent arranging.

Donnie, you\'ve done this before, and you didn\'t reply that time after I posted that anyone thinking that Thomas\' piece was real must be deaf! Well, congratulations, you\'ve done it again!!

How can you possibly hear the underlying track as real? You are not doing yourself any favours by making stupid attacks like this, either as a person or a musician. Oh, and I don\'t have any of your library, but I would think twice about buying anything from someone who is not only as offensive as you are, but obviously deaf!

Chris

[lex]

It\'s really funny, how each and every disscussion about Thomas_J\'s demoes ends up as \"for Thomas\" \"against Thomas\"...hehe..
really silly...
Personaly I was absolutly facinated by his work when I heard it for the first time..mainly beacuse his writing has that Goldsmith/Williams feel, but still original.
But now all the new pieces start to sound dangerously \"same old\"..probably because these are just demoes...guess I\'m tottaly off topic now..but anyway..
I\'m just curious, after close listening of your pieces Thomas, what I hear is your writing, sample libraries AND samples from cllassical orchestra recordings..full orchestra hits, small small runs, short sustains,etc,etc..basicly making custom orchestra librarie out of orchestra recordings...I used to do this, and the results are impressive, of course I had to wash it in large amounts of verb, so that they blend well...I have stoped doing this because it sounds very good and yet I can\'t use it in my work..
Just wondering if my ears are still working, is this the aproach that you use sometimes, when you refer to \"custom samples\"? Just curious..
Anyway, great writing thanks for sharing, I would love to hear some of your softer work as well.... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Alex

[Simon Ravn]

Thomas_J, as usual: Great stuff, great composing. And as usual: Way too much reverb... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Thomas_J]

Lex: You are wrong about that. I never use prerecorded clusters or loops or hits or anything. The only stuff I\'ve used that on has been where it isn\'t possible to do it with midi because of library limitations. I know what you mean but I stay away from such compositional approaches. My custom library is indeed unique. What\'s wrong with using short flute runs and string runs etc. from Advanced Orchestra to add to the realism? It\'s not a problem when it comes to the notation of the music. I personally think the extra articulations on AO help me out very well.

Thank you for your interest http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I\'m sorry you didn\'t like the piece, but what better way to show off the trumpets than to take a good old recipe for the heroic and epic hollywood sound?

And can we stop talking about the darn composition and concentrate on the samples of Maarten? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Thomas

[Thomas_J]

Heh thank you Simon. Actually there isn\'t too much reverb (imo) on the Victory.mp3. I just listened to Goldsmith\'s 13th Warrior and I can only conclude with the fact that that score has just as much reverb on the brass as any of my stuff http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif (Oh well perhaps I have a little more http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Thomas

[lex]

..I never said that there\'s anything wrong with using runs from AO or even runs from recordings, it\'s the same thing basicly, except for the licence isue..
anyway, thanks for the reply..
..and as far as showing capabilities of Marteen\'s samples, I think you did a great job http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
...I love those trumpets...

[Lance_M]

First off, love the trumpets. Downloaded them the other week and have been fiddling around with \'em quite a bit. They work quite well layered with QL Brass if you tweak and tinker for a while until you find the \"magic\" EQ and such.

Secondly, your demos are always really nice Thomas, but I\'d have to agree with many about the reverb. It sounds like you\'re sitting in the back of a hall with your hands slightly cupped over your ears. Neat for mp3s, but in actual media, it simply does not work (I guess I could add an \"in my opinion\" there, but I\'ve never known anyone that would accept such a big hall sound in a presentation). Just my own opinion, though. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Anyway... can\'t wait for the horns they have planned! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Thomas_J]

Why is it that you guys have to complain about my reverb all the time? shut up and make some music http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I like my reverb like this. Listen to scores like The Mummy and 13th Warrior and tell me that\'s not a \"way back in the hall\" sound image. Then tell me that sound image is bad and unpresentable http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Quite frankly I don\'t give a d*mn whether I\'m running the mix through a $3000000 reverb box or a $100 boss unit. It really doesn\'t make enough difference. To me, sequencing virtual orchestrations is all about realizing my musical ideas. I\'m a composer, not a programmer.

Thomas

[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 02-09-2002).]

[caveman]

I do not think that there is such a thing as too much or too little Reverb. According to composition and mixing technique it is what you want it too be. So if youre expectation to your ear tells you more or less Reverb then, what does not satisfy your liking is classified as wrong. I think Thomas J is right on with his Reverb because he likes the Back to the Hall \"Big\" echo type sounds. Why do we critisize this effort?

You cannot justify this, as every artists has his own trademark or work of art. Reverb is one of the elements.

Sometimes movie makers or composers, defy the law of established technical order, thus breaking the rules, and creates a whole new sounds or forray in stile.

Thanks for sharing your music, and keep the creativity coming!!!

[Jamieh]

Actually, the harmonic progression is the same one that Randy Eidelman used in Gettysburg (at least in the middle). I\'ve always thought it was pretty effective.