Possible way of creating small string sections with GPO's Solo KS string instruments?

[Sheridan]

Right now I'm working on the strings part of Bach's Harpsichord Concerto No. 1 in D minor(I'll be performing the harpsichord part live). I'm wanting to use solo KS instruments and hopefully blend them into a string sound but of course I'm running into the dreaded chorus effect.

I thought about using the player string patches. For example I would have gagli players 1, 2, and 3, strad players, 1, 2, 3, and guarn players, 1, 2, 3 all set to respond to midi channel 1 and when all 9 are played together they blend quite nicely into a natural string section sound without the chorus effect. But the problem with this technique is the lack of key switching which I heavily rely on in this piece(I'm using almost every ks except pizzicato).

So, after I'm through writing out cc data and other things I'm thinking as a last step I would for example take the violin 1 track and duplicate it to where I have 9 tracks all playing violin 1. 3 of the tracks would play using the Gagli Solo ks. Another 3 using the Strad solo ks and another 3 using the Guarn solo ks. Each of the 9 violins would have their own different levels of var1 and var2 and on each track I would slightly randomize the notes using the Humanize function in Logic Pro.

Then after this I would export each of the 9 tracks separately as audio files then import them back in. Then somehow I would use effects on each track to change the timbre of each violin imitating the differences between each of the player patches to avoid the chorus effect.

This last step is the step I am clueless as to how to perform. I'm not sure what effects to use nor how to use them. I'm experimenting on this last step right now but I still haven't found a way to change the timbre enough without producing an ugly sound to avoid the chorus effect.

So, please, I need some advice as to what effects I should use on each of the tracks or if you know of a better technique than the one I devised please suggest that as well(I'm trying to avoid using the string section patches for this piece btw). Thanks. :hp:

[keithjfuller]

I'm guessing that what you're calling a chorus effect is what I would call phasing? And I'm not sure if you can get rid of it, but I'd imagine that the simplest way would be to open the EQ on each of them and alter it slightly. Maybe bring the High Pass up on some and Peak 1 or 2 on another. Other than EQing them, I would say to possibly give the strings different reverbs, just slightly different ones (you don't want to make it sound like they're all coming from different places). I use Space Designer mostly, and I think you'd be able to do it that way. But I would stay away from other plugins that alter the timbre or volumes, especially compression (all that will do is lower your threshold volumes which would increase the overall loudness of the piece) - I only say this because lots of people just throw in a compressor now and then and don't really know what the heck they're doing with them. But if used correctly compressors are great (just not for what you're trying to do).

I'd think that just changing where the note starts for each of the tracks might work also. I think you get phasing when the samples are aligned perfectly and you pick up the vibrato going at the exact same rate. If the notes all started at slightly different times then the vibratos would not match up so the phasing would be a little more limited I'd think. This is why the sections don't have that problem.

I'm also not sure why you don't want to use the sections, or the players in the solo sections (1, 2, 3). I'll tell you right now that there is no way you are going to be able to build a section sound out of the same Solo Instruments. I'm not sure of the physics behind it, but I've never heard it work.

Other than that I'm not really sure what to say. Maybe you could post the effect that you're getting and tell me what instruments you're using exactly. You don't have to post the entire tune, just bounce a problem section and I'll see if I can help.

Good Luck

[Sheridan]

@keithjfuller

Thanks. I'll look into the techniques you suggested.

Here's an example of how the solo player violin patches in GPO blend together into a string section sound. Each of the 9 play solo first then in unison:

http://idisk.me.com/sheridanlhaskell//Public/Audio/violins_unison_example.mp3

Note data and positions were randomized for each violin.

As I stated earlier I can't use the player patches because they don't have any key switching capabilities.

I'm also going to try tuning some of the solo ks violins in kontakt a whole step higher then moving the notes in the piano roll a wholestep lower so they still play the correct pitches but use different samples thus maybe avoiding the "phasing" effect.

[rpearl]

I don't have much experience in this, but by changing the start times slightly (which I think you mentioned doing), you create a kind of naturally occurring reverb - means you can use less in the mix, and thus less strain on the machine. Every little bit helps...
Also, mixing the solo instruments in with the section samples works nicely, too. Doesn't solve the ks issue, but can make the sections much more defined.

[lunker]

I'm also going to try tuning some of the solo ks violins in kontakt a whole step higher then moving the notes in the piano roll a wholestep lower so they still play the correct pitches but use different samples thus maybe avoiding the "phasing" effect.

I have done this before, and I was quite happy with the results.

Using pitch shifting and random offsets in the timing of each note, I was able to use the 3 KS violins to create a 30-piece string section (16 1st Violins and 14 2nd Violins). A pro might have found some phasing problems, but to my ears it was perfectly OK.

For the random timing, I duplicated the two tracks (to create 16 1st Violin tracks and 14 2nd Violin tracks), and ran them through a program that randomly shifts the start and duration of each note.

And, as you mentioned previously, I also assigned semi-random VAR1 and VAR2 values to each note to add additional variation for each instance of the instruments.

[Sheridan]

@lunker I've tried the different tuning technique and it's really impractical to use so I've switched over to the string section patches. I'm using them in combination with the KS solo violins and the aggressive string section patches for an extra punch in certain spots. They actually sound quite nice but I still prefer the smaller string orchestra sound for baroque era pieces. Smaller string section sound that I like is just big enough for the loud string section sound but small enough that if you concentrate enough you can hear each individual string player sound through.

[lunker]

I've tried the different tuning technique and it's really impractical to use

If you mean that setting it up is more effort than it's worth, I have to agree. Luckily, I moonlight during the daytime as a software developer, and I wrote a program to do all the hard work for me. Unfortunately, it is Unix software (neither PC nor Mac) and it is very specific to my work flow, so it is not that useful to anyone else.

It's great though -- it takes the initial two tracks, duplicates them and does all the transposing for the different instrument instances (but doesn't transpose the keyswitch notes), randomly adjusts the start and duration of each note (according to a Gaussian distribution based on real players' reaction time, which I find MUCH more accurate than simply shifting an entire track by a certain number of MIDI ticks relative to the another track), and then adds semi-random VAR1 and VAR2 to each note such that short notes get higher VAR1 and VAR2 values than longer notes.

[raweber]

This may be what you're looking for:

http://www.garritan.com/tutorial/StringEnsembleBuildingTutorial.html