Jealous Sample Developers Low Blow GOS Strings

[NYBLUE]

After producing a hugely successful sample library, Gary seems to have excited the jealous attentions of some sample developers. It is obvious that what is going on in recent threads and the message certain sample developers portray is loud and clear: \"I\'M SO JEALOUS OF GARRITAN\'S SUCCESS THAT I JUST CAN\'T STAND IT\". Those guys must be seething: GOS won the coveted Editor\'s Choice award (only sample library ever to get it), receives a litany of impressive endorsements, and gets accolades from customers and professionals. These credentials are far more compelling than any posts from some disgruntled developers. In a competitive market, when one does super-well and raises the bar, the competition is expected to be unsettled. Criticism is good, but the credibility factor is at the bottom when competitors disparage another developer\'s product and engage in personal attacks. Such conduct is unprofessional and lacks integrity.

Does anyone really think that sample developer\'s comments about their competitor\'s products will be truthful? Take \'honest\' Nick, who neglected to mention he was a beta tester for GOS and admits he had a beta version months before it was even released. I noticed that Nick is even credited in the GOS manual. Isn\'t the purpose of a beta to help a developer before a product is released? So helpful Nick does a hatchet job on the sound of GOS (months after the release) while attempting to set in motion a negative spectacle as a prelude to announcing his intention to do a string library. Even though I like QLB, I\'ll think twice before buying any other library of Nick\'s. First he\'s not recording a string library, then suddenly he is...He\'s making great music with GOS, then in an about-face, he doesn\'t like the sound. It\'s hard to believe anything he says.

Then there is Franz (with a competing string library) who feels compelled to join the negative campaign. But Franz sinks to lower levels by resorting to cheap shots and personal attacks. Then Donnie, in the height of absurdity, objects to Gary\'s application of the term \'Maestro\' used to honor GOS customers. Give me a break. Who knows what cronies and vested interests have also joined the fray remaining hidden behind their aliases. I am against censorship, but maybe it\'s time for some sort of reasonable guidelines for the developers in this forum.

The sample developers with their big distributor backing have been left in the dust. There\'s this independent little guy who set a new standard and beat the established developers and big companies at their game. Gary managed to get into Lincoln Center to record millions of dollars worth of strings. He delivers an exceptional product that is innovative, imaginative, provides great documentation and it sounds absolutely great. He doesn’t just give us a product, thinking only about the bucks. He is ever responsive to user suggestions - always wanting to know \"how can we do this better\", he keeps us informed, is fair in his pricing, goes beyond the call of duty to his customers, and even gives us free updates. Gary has been positive, he credits his musicians and contributors, has never publicly criticized another developer, and does not make comparisons to competitor\'s products. Integrity and commitment shows in his product and his dealings, and this is the kind of developer I prefer to do business with. He has this customer for life and I\'ll buy anything he does.

GOS has shaken the whole industry and is a sample library many have been waiting for. Achievement and innovation are often resented and subject to attack by jealous competitors.
So Gary must be doing something right. Don\'t sample developers realize that their negative posts turn many people off and cheapen the perceptions of their products and their own integrity? Sample developers would do better to follow Gary\'s lead. It will mean better libraries, more innovation, improved service and more choices for all of us.

Keep up the good work Gary!

\'Maestro\' NYBLUE

[Mel Tron]

I totally agree.

True Excellence will always win in the end.

In the music business there is a dark underground of wannabes and failures. These shadowy figures haunt this forum and others with their self righteousness and arrogance.

It\'s like the guy who gets the gig \'cause he\'s so and so\'s best friend. The project goes nowhere because the producers failed to hire honest hard working people that would truly shine with their creative and positive energy. I\'ve seen it ad nauseum.

What really amazes me however is that people think they are really getting a definitive be all and end all \'Musical Instrument\' when they purchase a sample library. The best one could ever hope for is a well thought out Virtual Instrument. And there\'s nothing wrong with that. It\'s a very useful tool.
All I am saying is that Samples are like a pale reflection of the Real Thing. Like the way the moon reflects the Sun. Don\'t get me wrong, I enjoy my Virtual Instruments and have spent well over 10k on them. I am however not suffering under the illusions that these are a replacement for the real thing. GOS is a bargain considering what it is. Most Sample libraries are way overpriced and are produced solely for a profit. It shows in the attitudes of the people who create them. Ever try to get a replacement disk from East-West? It\'s like pulling teeth. Man are they doing you a favor!

The old saying that one never regretted buying quality certainly applies here.

[jubal]

Whew! For a second there I thought this was going to be another 100-200 message thread.

I know this makes no sense at all but could we focus on the purpose of this forum? KingIdiot (I use his full name for the sake of clarity, long live the King!!) has made a good point of working together to get the most out of the libraries that we have. I also think it appropriate to share projects that have used these libraries...not to flaunt one\'s ability, but to show what can be done with a given library. I thought I was getting pretty good with GOS, then I heard some of Jeremy Soule\'s MP3\'s and I immediately went and cried in my closet...I\'m ok now.

Also, perhaps we should start a new forum called \'Sample Library Developer Advocacy\' where we can praise and flame the developers. This would give an area concentrated on building up and tearing down developers (I\'m kidding, but at least it would clear this space of that sort of thing).

I agree with some of the above post concerning Gary. I haven\'t met a nicer guy..well I have never met Gary http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif...but I have never talked to a nicer guy that was involved in this business. I worked with him as a Beta tester and now a customer...he is all CLASS.

I have never met Nick and at times he seems quite abrasive...but so what...he\'s a user of these sample libaries and I\'m interested in what works for him as well (Nick, you need to sample a Pipa for your next Rare Instrument library).

So please...drop your stones and let\'s all go home. I am for everyone...I am for no one...I am Jubal, King of the Morons.

[Nick Phoenix]

I have had enough of you dipsh*ts! Yes I helped Gary a little with his library. Does that make me a jealous sample library developer? NO, to the contrary! Does everybody who helped Gary have to keep their mouths shut? NO! That reminds me of our current government. \"You\'re either with us or your against us.\" I wanted GOS to be the ultimate string library. Its just not for me. Did I not say many good things about it?
I stand by what I said 100,000 %. I am a working composer and have a right to voice my opinion on this forum!!! I am not making a string library, I just said that after hearing similar \"jealous sample library developer\" comments. How many f***ing times to I have to tell you blockheads this?

[This message has been edited by Nick Phoenix (edited 02-02-2002).]

[jubal]

Like I said Nick, you have the right to voice your opinion and I\'m interested in hearing it...read above. What does dipshots mean?

I\'m serious about the Pipa though.



[This message has been edited by jubal (edited 02-02-2002).]

[Chadwick]

Sorry,

I\'m on free speech\'s side here.

There are mp3s and raves for many libraries to be easily found around the net, but as someone else has already said, where else but a discussion forum like this, do you get to hear about the possible chinks in a library\'s armour?

As difficult as criticism is to hear - especially of a brilliant library which has been lovingly and expertly crafted - this criticism can help you decide to actually BUY the targetted library. eg If someone raves about the fact that the library isn\'t wet enough, and I like my samples dry, then I know I\'m on the right track. If someone\'s only criticism of a library is that it doesn\'t have articulation \'X\', and I never use that articulation, then I know I\'m not losing out.

Vague plaudits are much less useful than detailed critiques, however painful they may be, and I\'d much prefer to read balanced critiques by guys like Nick (he said GOS was the best available more than once) and Bruce, than cranky whinges or flowery love notes by people whose credentials are anonymous.

[Lance_M]

\"...where else but a discussion forum like this, do you get to hear about the possible chinks in a library\'s armour?\"

That says it all. Simple as that. When spending a few hundred up to thousands of dollars on these CDs, a place like this is PERFECT.

I\'m smart enough to weed out the comments from people that are angry or bitter for whacked out reasons, so if getting as many informed comments as possible means a couple of bad seeds popping in every so often, then I, for one, don\'t see much of an issue.

[donnie]

x

[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 02-03-2002).]

[Simon Ravn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by donnie:
What about all the noise?


Donnie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Noise???? uhm.. where?

[Francis Belardino]

Gentlemen? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif please.

Donnie: Your samples rocked everyone here. I know it, they know it. You\'d better know it.

Nick: You\'re a killer composer and take great leaps in the art of sampling.

Gary: Great guy. Great work.

Seems to me that the 3 mentioned are the real pros here and they have not only the right but the knowledge to talk about their craft.

OK, so now I should get a discount from, DSSoundWare, QuantumLeap and Garritan, right? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Just kidding. Just want peace among the peoples http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Francis Belardino (edited 02-02-2002).]

[Nick Phoenix]

Z6,
What happened to the hilarious posts? I don\'t have a special relationship with Donnie actually. The whole Thomas thing was fueled by a sample file that I was sent from Thomas\' library. I didn\'t ask for this file, but it made Thomas to appear a fraud. I think Thomas is extremely talented and intelligent. The only reason my libraries are decent is I sample what I need, or what I can\'t find elsewhere. I am missing something in the string department. If someone nails the strings, I certainly will never sample them.

* = i dipsh*ts

[This message has been edited by Nick Phoenix (edited 02-02-2002).]

[Mel Tron]

Whoa!!!!!!!!!!!

The Sample Developer\'s Posts certainly speak for themselves!

I\'ll probably still buy their work. Already have and enjoy their work. I\'m too busy to do it myself.

I\'d rather write music than be a Sample Developer.

Have U seen Mars Attacks?

Quote Jack Nicholson as the U.S. President to the invading Martians:

\"Can\'t we all just get along?\"

[Neal Keane]

oops, sorry about dredging up the old thread.

Nick, FYI, both posts from NYBLUE on this forum come from your local router...and I\'m assuming NYBLUE is not you (?!).

a disgruntled associate, maybe?...just a thought.



[This message has been edited by Neal Keane (edited 02-02-2002).]

[Simon Ravn]

Neal, please, if you have a conspiracy theory, it\'d better be very well-founded. I am not a networking genius, but please enlighten me, since the IP\'s are nowhere near the same.

[Aaron Symonds]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mel Tron:


Have U seen Mars Attacks?

Quote Jack Nicholson as the U.S. President to the invading Martians:

\"Can\'t we all just get along?\"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn\'t they end up solving their problems by playing a recording of really bad country music. While this thread isn\'t particularly enjoyable, I don\'t think we\'re that desperate...yet.

[Neal Keane]

>but please enlighten me, since the IP\'s are >nowhere near the same.

Sure, Simon. If you do a search on the \"New Voices of the Apocalypse demo\" topic you\'ll find the 1st post from Nick has an IP address of 152.163.204.xxx and the next post from Nick an address of 64.12.102.xxx. The most recent post from NYBLUE (above)on this forum has an address of 64.12.102.xxx and the first post from NYBLUE from 8/7/01 is 152.163.204.xxx

The xxx is the address of your computer on the local network/router and may be different every time you boot up.

Anyway, the matches are hardly a coincidence and so it looks like someone is screwing around with Nick\'s computers...hopefully he\'ll look into it.

Sorry to be so O/T.

[This message has been edited by Neal Keane (edited 02-02-2002).]

[Z6]

I just lost a whole message - damnn

Hey Nick,

Just do a bleedn\' string library for goodness sake. You obviously know what you want. The perfect string library will never be nailed and there is always room for alternative approaches.

My personal wish is for something \'playable\' (as opposed to sculpting in step time). If you can do it half as well as RI you will clean up.

Donnie: your remarks about Mr. Garritan were just too much. I hope you delete your post because I\'m sure you were angry when you wrote it.

(Can I be best man? :-)

[PatS]

The 152.163.204.0 network is in one of AOL\'s CIDR blocks, which means that Nick and NYBLUE have AOL accounts (along with millions of other folks). BTW, the last octet can be subdivided into numerous subnets, each assigned to a different router interface.

As for the 64.12.102.166 IP address, it belongs to an AOL proxy server. And Nick\'s current IP address belongs to mediaone.net (MediaOne is a broadband company that merged with AT&T).

In short, let it go.

Pat

[PaPa Chalk]

Ok everyone this has gone on to long everyone who posts here has agreed to these rules. The forum is not intended for this use.
Here are our rules everyone agreed to when you register to post
Welcome to the GigaSampler user forums. This Site is by GigaSampler user\'s for GigaSampler user\'s. We hope this will be of help to everyone. Please keep this discussion free of bickering with each other. We are here to help each other get the best use out of GigaSampler/Studio. .
If you can help some one with a problem or you have some tips about GigaSampler/Studio please post an article.\"
please respect others on this site no swearing or name calling of others this could get you banned.

Please no requests for or trading of copyright software or sample Cd\'s. You will be banned if you do so.
Please no third party commercial advertising in topic or reply posts it\'s not fair to others who are paying to advertise. If you pay to advertise your free to post this helps to keep this site up and running. If you would like to advertise please contact us at
nsounds@northernsounds.com.


PaPa Chalk & Desound


[This message has been edited by PaPa Chalk (edited 02-03-2002).]

[Z6]

I think Nick\'s insults in his original critique must have been written in invisible ink.



[This message has been edited by Z6 (edited 02-03-2002).]

[Analoguesque]

This is related to this topic, but not intentionally pointing to anyone here. I just read some of the comments and decided to put in my own, through personal experience ...

What some people don\'t realize is that when flagrant insults are thrown at a developer\'s library, it just hurts the business in general. Potential customers who may rave about the library don\'t buy it because they read a trashy post about it. The developer loses confidence ... etc. Reviews or comments on a sound library always require a concerted effort to be objective. If you realized the amount of time and effort some of us developers put into these products, you might not go ahead and trash them so easily. Obviously if they are not to your liking, go ahead and tell people why, but with good reasoning.

It is not very comforting for a developer to read really bad reviews of their sound designs, obviously, but sometimes some good constructive criticism is extremely helpful.

I use my own designs in music all the time so I usually don\'t really care if someone shoots them down. However, what I do care about is receiving feedback about them - both positive and negative. It helps guage what is expected of me, what you would like to see from my designs, and any future enhancements you might enjoy. Most sound designers don\'t intentionally produce a sound library that sucks, and then try to sell it with a bunch of lies about how great it is. If there are any who do this, they really must be 1 in a million!! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/mad.gif

Opinions can be very subjective, and that\'s why I always take them with a pinch of salt. Most developers have some kind of demo which should give you an idea of what the libary sounds like, so listen to that and then make your purchase decision.

If the demo of the library is not to your liking, this definitely is not a good reason to go ahead and trash the actual library if you\'ve never heard it yourself. The demo might just suck! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I have no aspiration to be a world-class musician so I am never 100% happy with the demo songs I create to show off my libraries. I am often hesitant with them because I feel they never show the true strength of my products, because my musicianship is not good enough. I am also on a tight budget so I can\'t afford to hire an independant musician to provide demos of my sound libraries.

Anyway, the short of it is that if you\'re going to trash someone\'s sound library, at least try to be objective about it.


------------------
Ian
Analoguesque Sound Designs
http://www.analoguesque.com

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Analoguesque:


If you realized the amount of time and effort some of us developers put into these products, you might not go ahead and trash them so easily. Obviously if they are not to your liking, go ahead and tell people why, but with good reasoning.

It is not very comforting ...

Anyway, the short of it is that if you\'re going to trash someone\'s sound library, at least try to be objective about it.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is an old thread. And all of the custard pies being thrown were thrown by developers - at each other.

It was so bad that at one point I felt compelled to send a message to a developer asking him to delete his disgraceful comments.

This is a discussion forum. It is not here to comfort developers, and your implicit assumption that the only people who would throw \'flagrant\' insults are non-developers, is quite erroneous (and a little insulting of itself).

If I like a library I always tell people. And I want to hear whether someone has a problem with a library - whether a developer judges the opinion to be helpful to him or not.

Nick\'s original post was not, I believe, insulting in the least, but it was taken as such by a friend of the developer.

I believe in free speech. If a library is a commercial product, then by all means I want to hear \'flagrant insults\' as well as glowing reviews.

What I am tired of hearing is instructions as to how we should all act here and the apparant inability for some individuals to differentiate between criticism of someone\'s work and personal insults.

Understand that a lot of time goes into producing any product in any field. If a library is given away for free then you are at least half-right.

There is absolutely no reason why a consumer should ballet-dance around in case he hurts the developer\'s feelings - especially when he might have purchased non-returnable merchandise.

If a consumer wants to throw a \'flagrant insult\' at a library; that is his business. Supporters can then argue whatever they want.

But flagrant personal insults are not acceptable; neither is lumping all non-developers together and giving them a \'talking to\' (in this case for a \'crime\' they did not commit).

Developers certainly work hard; as do the people who buy their wares. When consumers can return these libraries for a full refund (if dissatisfied) then you can ask people to \'be nice\'.

Until then, I welcome the opinions of previous purchasers.

Allow us to apply our own \'pinch of salt\' if you please.

[Analoguesque]

Your remark about my assumption that only non-developers throw insults would be incorrect. I do not think this. On re-reading my post it seems I was a bit muddied, but the intention was not to imply that only non-developers throw insults. I do see developer-envy, but would be hard-pressed to take Developer A\'s advice over whether or not I should buy Developer B\'s competing product.

>Nick\'s original post was not, I believe,
>insulting in the least, but it was taken
>as such by a friend of the developer.
I was not even alluding to his post at all, or picking on anyone in this topic for that matter, as mentioned in my original post.

>commercial product, then by all means I
>want to hear \'flagrant insults\' as well as
>glowing reviews.
In my experience, the only insults ever thrown at our products have come from people who are not our customers. They are not on our books as having made a purchase.

This means one of 4 things:
1. They are throwing around uninformed and idiotic opinions without even having access to our products.
2. They have a small demo on which they base their entire opinion.
3. They have a pirate copy of our product.
4. They purchased our product from a previous customer.

My answer to this is:
1. Idiot / Flamer!
2. If you don\'t like the demo, shut up and don\'t buy the product. Also, don\'t splatter negative opinions about a 128-preset sound bank when all you have is a 10-preset demo.
3. You\'re too cheap to buy the original, so you make a copy and then trash it in a public forum. You obviously didn\'t like it enough to pay for it, so why didn\'t you just leave it alone.
4. There\'s a good chance you never heard it before buying it. Do you often buy things without checking them first? The fact that you bought it is an assumption on our part that you are happy with it, otherwise you would not have bought it

Look at it from my viewpoint - complaints I have personally responded to have never come from legitimate sources. That\'s the angle I\'m coming from.

>What I am tired of hearing is instructions
>as to how we should all act here and the
>apparant inability for some individuals to
I\'m not giving you instructions on how to act. I was simply giving my 2c opinion based on how I treat people, even if I don\'t like their products. I don\'t blindly trash them in a forum if they offer a try-before-you buy demo, or provide several MP3 demos ... etc. If the demo is highly misleading then I will trash them. It is for this reason that I provide several demos - so that the decision to buy is informed.

>especially when he might have purchased
>non-returnable merchandise.
> .........
>When consumers can return these libraries >for a full refund (if dissatisfied) then >you can ask people to \'be nice\'.
I\'m not asking people to be nice. I\'m asking them to be sensible. Do you seriously expect developer\'s of sound libraries to hand out refunds? This is software, not something you can pack up and send back without copying or pirating. How many software companies do you know who offer a full refund on opened goods? Get real!

>If a consumer wants to throw a \'flagrant
>insult\' at a library; that is his
Based on my experience, IMO he only has the right to do this if he legitimately owns the product and purchased it from me. We spend a lot of time insuring that our customer knows what they are getting when purchasing from our website. If you purchase elsewhere, then your purchase is uninformed IMO. Besides, we only sell from our own website because we choose to make sure a customer has the opportunity to clearly define what they are buying, by downloading MP3s or other demo software. If you want to scream and shout about how terrible a library is, go ahead, but next time listen to the demos before you buy. If there aren\'t any demos, be wary, and listen to others who scream and shout, or praise it. My point is this : We give customers the opportunity to listen first, so they should know exactly what they are getting. To expect a full refund is just not possible, especially for intangible goods such as software.

>developers together and giving them
>a \'talking to\' (in this case for a \'crime\'
>they did not commit).
Like I said, it was just my 2c opinion based on the way I approach things. A talking to? I think not. Besides, I\'m entitled to my free speech too, and my original post was it.

It\'s just my opinion and you can take it how you want. However, as I previously mentioned, I was only basing this on personal experience, not the messages in this topic, which is why I said my post was related.

------------------
Ian
Analoguesque Sound Designs
http://www.analoguesque.com

[Z6]

Wow. Now everyone who doesn\'t provide a \'balanced\' opinion is a pirate to boot?

Ever voiced such an opinion about a song or a meal or a book, or really anything; that is entirely positive or objective or balanced?

I think you have to understand that if someone comes down hard on a library, he\'s usually not doing so to hurt anyone. He doesn\'t know the person who produced it.

I don\'t really have any negative experiences to gripe about. I\'ve been more than happy with all of my purchases, but that could be partly because people here have kindly given me a heads-up on a few things (good and bad).

I don\'t expect any developer to hand out a full refund (although I understand that Big Fish Audio is offering \'shop credit\' to dissatisfied customers - a step in the right direction), but without a refund policy there is a tacit suggestion that all purchasers are pirates (although I really don\'t want to open that up again - and I don\'t believe sample library developers can be expected to solve this problem; kudos to BFA though). So, as a developer, surely you have accept to that not all criticism will handily provide you with some tips for the future that you might produce a better product.

You keep beating the \'legitimate\' drum here. Your personal experience is that all people who complain are thieves. The library-beating I\'ve read here seems to exist precisely because someone paid money for something and was not satisfied (and there really isn\'t that much \'negativity\' here anyway). I think a lot of people who might have been negative are too bloody frightened.

On the \'drums\' thread someone was negative and so many people got hot and bothered that he sheepishly took it back.


The reason I responded to your post was (even though you didn\'t want it associated with indivdual posts on this thread) that you said: \"If you realized the amount of time and effort some of us developers put into these products, you might not go ahead and trash them so easily.\"

I apologize If I wrongly assumed that that remark was directed at non-developers.

Every library I have is wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. When I use them I feel like sending big slobbery kisses to the guys and gals who developed them (and always to the people at Nemesys). But if developers keep complaining every time a non-developer blurts out something ike \"it sucks\" and is then attacked from every angle for not being balanced or informative, then the only people that will ever post here are developers.

Maybe that will be for the best, I suppose. But I need to hear criticism of any color sometimes, because just as you pointed out that nobody deliberately produces a crappy library, sometimes crappy libraries get produced anyway. They\'re usually expensive and you can\'t get a refund; spare a thought for the consumer with 500 hard-earned non-returnable dollars in his hand.

It is scary buying these things with only demos by which to judge.

[Cool7s_Dad]

>I do see developer-envy,

Poor Thomas wore it like so many rotten eggs. Donnie and Nick wouldn\'t leave him alone. And all he did was produce some wonderful music.

>>Nick\'s original post was not, I believe,
>>insulting in the least, but it was taken
>>as such by a friend of the developer.

It\'s hard to belive that Nick navigated his way through more than a dozen written words without hurling an epithet or an insult, but I\'ll take your word for it this time.

>>commercial product, then by all means I
>>want to hear \'flagrant insults\' as well as
>>glowing reviews.

>In my experience, the only insults ever
>thrown at our products have come from
>people who are not our customers. They are
>not on our books as having made a purchase.

That may be but...

>This means one of 4 things:
>1. They are throwing around uninformed and
>idiotic opinions without even having access
>to our products.

Gee, that\'s not an insulting assertion at all.

>2. They have a small demo on which they
>base their entire opinion.

What exactly are demos designed to do? Many times, all a person has access to is a demo. You can research a library only to a certain point without actually purchasing it. Demo\'s are certainly a very big part of that.

>3. They have a pirate copy of our product.

Interesting that thieves would expose themselves by basing criticism on their pirated copy, but I suppose it\'s at least plausible.

>4. They purchased our product from a
>previous customer.

See my response to #3.

>My answer to this is:
>1. Idiot / Flamer!

In the case the poster is nothing more than a troll whose reputation likely precedes him. It\'s therefore really nothing for you to get upset about. Doing so only lends creedence to the troll.

>2. If you don\'t like the demo, shut up and
>don\'t buy the product. Also, don\'t splatter
>negative opinions about a 128-preset sound
>bank when all you have is a 10-preset demo.

If I don\'t like a demo, I\'m free to express that opinion. I don\'t have to shut up. If you put out a demo then you\'re taking the risk that it will be negatively received. You have to take the bad with the good. It\'s especially risky in your business because a demo of a sound library really needs to make the library shine. If it doesn\'t, it may not necessarily have anything to do with the library. It could be substandard composition or production. That doesn\'t change the fact that it reflects on the product for good or for ill.

If you think that\'s rough, try demo\'ing web applications to potential clients some time. If the demo is conducted on a day where there\'s heavy web traffic, or even heavy usage on the customer\'s LAN, the perception will be that your application is slow and clunky. It\'s probably not wise to defend your application by telling the potential customer to \"shut up and don\'t buy the product.\"

>3. You\'re too cheap to buy the original, so
>you make a copy and then trash it in a
>public forum. You obviously didn\'t like it
>enough to pay for it, so why didn\'t you
>just leave it alone.

Raising the spectre of piracy yet again indicates how far out of touch the sample developer is with the buying public. I reiterate, as I have many times on this forum, that tthe current business model of most sample developers does not mesh with the technological realies imposed on the material. When you produce a library and market it the way you do, you can expect a certain amount of piracy. Strange as it may be for a thief to dis his stolen goods, it probably happens. That\'s just the way it is.

>4. There\'s a good chance you never heard it
>before buying it. Do you often buy things
>without checking them first?

Again, because of the business model that most of you have adopted, there\'s really no way to check these things at all many times. It\'s a big risk on the customer\'s part.

>The fact that
>you bought it is an assumption on our part
>that you are happy with it, otherwise you
>would not have bought it

Not true at all. This assertion is really very silly if you think about it. Often times, products don\'t measure up to expectations. Especially if they have been hyped the way some of these sample libraries are hyped. Words like \"revolutionary\" and \"astounding\" and \"outstanding\" are thrown around with ease. I\'ve even recently seen this one:

\"Forget what you know and have heard before about samplers ... Analoguesque rewrites the book!\"

>Look at it from my viewpoint - complaints I
>have personally responded to have never
>come from legitimate sources. That\'s the
>angle I\'m coming from.

You left out a few:

5. People who actually bought the library, invited someone else into their studio to hear it. Happens all the time. You may try to restrict what happens to a sample library after it is purchased, but you\'re going to have a rough time keeping my friends out of my studio. I may never post a word about it, but after hearing it, they might.

6. People who have communicated with legitimate owners via email, other internet forums, or the Usenet. It does happen, you know.

7. Someone who has read formal, sanctioned, reviews from people with good reputations (like Bruce Richardson).


>I\'m not giving you instructions on how to
>act.

What is \"shut up and don\'t buy it\" then?

>I was simply giving my 2c opinion based on
>how I treat people, even if I don\'t like
>their products.

We\'re seeing how you treat people if they don\'t like your products, though. Not pretty.

>I don\'t blindly trash them in a forum

With words like \"Idiot / Flamer?\"

>if
>they offer a try-before-you buy demo, or
>provide several MP3 demos ... etc. If the
>demo is highly misleading then I will trash
>them. It is for this reason that I provide
>several demos - so that the decision to buy
>is informed.

You realize how contradictory that sounds, don\'t you? You don\'t trash them unless they\'re misleading. And who decides what is misleading? You? It sounds like you\'re giving yourself carte blanc to trash just about anybody.

>>especially when he might have purchased
>>non-returnable merchandise.
>> .........
>>When consumers can return these libraries >>for a full refund (if dissatisfied) then >>you can ask people to \'be nice\'.

>I\'m not asking people to be nice. I\'m
>asking them to be sensible. Do you
>seriously expect developer\'s of sound
>libraries to hand out refunds?

Absolutely. It\'s the right thing to do. If it doesn\'t work as advertised, then you have an obligation to give a refund.

>This is software, not something you can
>pack up and send back without copying or
>pirating.

I\'ve gotten countless refunds for software. Nevertheless, your statement makes the assumption that your customers would jump at any chance to steal from you.

>How many software companies do you know who
>offer a full refund on opened goods?

All the ones I deal with. Microsoft does. And really, you may get tested in court some day. In some states, it is the *law* that you must take back any product within a certain period of time, provided that the product is undamaged. Having been in the software business for 22 years, I\'ve had some experience with that from both sides.

Just last month, MOTU refunded $349 I had spent on some sequencing software that wasn\'t compatible with my setup. It took one phone call and about five minutes. As a result, I\'ll do business with MOTU again.

>Get real!

You will. It might take some time, but you will.

<snippage>

>To expect a full refund is just not
>possible, especially for intangible goods
>such as software.

Then you won\'t mind if we sell our copies of our EOS sound banks to someone else, will you? After all, it\'s intangible goods.

Seriously, though. You restrict our right to resell this material or allow anyone else to use it. Those are tangible limitations. You\'ve got a TOP document that\'s a mile long that does nothing but restrict the rights of the purchaser. But you can\'t supercede state law even if you get your customer to agree to it. I might just decide to test this for you if I get bored :P

Ian, you\'re probably a good guy who is a bit wet behind the ears when it comes to communicating on a forum like this. I do appreciate the way you\'ve packaged your products and priced them. You\'ve got to not take the negative feedback so seriously. Build on the positive feedback and stay above the fray. People will respect you for it and you\'ll benefit far more than if you engage in petty bickering with your detractors.

Peace,
Tim

NOTE TO PAPA: I know you want to keep bickering to a minimum on this forum. Please realize that when you have the artists who produce the products facing criticism and varying opinions about their products, you\'re bound to get some of this. In the long run it can be a good thing if it is allowed to be worked out. I agree that everyone should try to remain civil. But I don\'t think that we should stop seeking the best possible products from developers. Most importantly (and this causes developers to experience great angst) newer, better, ways of doing business between developers and musicians really need to be worked out. This can sometimes create hard feelings but will ultimately result in us helping \"each other to get the best use out of Gigasampler/Studio.\"

[thesoundsmith]

ADDITIONAL NOTE TO PAPA:

Thanks for stepping in. As a user, and not a developer, I get really tired of the \"Am not!\" \"Am too\" mentality in these threads. I understand how it happens, and how easy it is to misunderstand. I\'ve done it on this and other forums, even tho I try really hard to be evenhanded and to give the other guy the benefit of the doubt. We need an admin voice of reason from time to time.

The key is very simple. Respect (just a little bit)

If someone tries to sell a truly bad library the word goes out really quickly.

I have real issues with one of the guitar libraries frequently touted on this list by its developer. But that doesn\'t in any way decrease the value of the library to anyone else, nor does it decrease my respect for the developer himself. The company did a fine job recording and editing the instrument, it\'s just not the particular sound I\'m looking for. I\'d buy his piano lib in a minute (and probably will when I get to that point on my \'gotta have\' list.)

But if I call him nasty names and tell him the library bites because his library doesn\'t fit my needs, that\'s just ignorant. it gains me nothing, and gives the developer nothing to help him make decisions about further development, or ways to improve the current product.

The demos for that library showed me very clearly that it doesn\'t sound like I want, but it\'s a great lib for a different musical style and sensibility. To complain about it would be to complain that a Peterbilt 18-wheeler doesn\'t have as fast acceleration as a Porche 911.

Criticism, to be valid, must be relevant and meaningful, not hurtful or spiteful. OTOH, to call a user dumb because he doesn\'t \'get\' how you expect the lib to be used is equally meaningless, and virually guarantees that use won\'t buy anything from that vendor again. And any vendor that implies that I stole his library without evidence will never see a dime from me. If through attrition, I run out of vendors, I\'ll go to SampleTank on my Mac! And start over...

War said it - \"Why can\'t we be friends...\"

Dasher

[Analoguesque]

Tim,

Actually all I wanted to do was add my opinion based on what I know. I don\'t pretend to know all the facts by any means, but I do have some experience in the field. I just didn\'t realize the mess my post would turn into. I obviously don\'t articulate what I mean into words very well, since much of what I said was not exactly what I meant. For this you have my apologies.

In short, my irritation was directed towards people who are not legitimately complaining, not towards anyone else. The list of 1-4 assertions and answers was for non-legitimate complaints - spammers, trolls, whatevr you want to call it. BTW, these are people that I do have proof were non-legit, otherwise I would not have said what I did.

I do try to please customers any way I can, and certainly don\'t think everyone is a pirate or out to get me http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif.

One thing I can say though, is that our company definitely does not restrict a customer from selling a product they purchase from us as long as they do not keep a copy of it, since that is illegal.

However, after looking over our legal terms I notice that some information alludes to not being allowed to selling legitimately purchased products. Mmmmm, someone is going to get into trouble for that blurb, but in any event we do not stop you from selling it to someone else, and will make changes to the terms ASAP. I reitterate that selling it to someone else is perfectly fine if you don\'t keep a copy, or you\'re not selling a copy.

ADDITION. The change has just been been made to the terms.

I also agree with your blurb at the end to PAPA, and most certainly welcome any feedback or suggestions anyone might have. If you have any suggestions as to how we could possibly demo the libraries more accurately, I\'m definitely open to this. Hey, and providing the whole library for free on a try-before-you-buy basis is not a real suggestion either. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Again I would just like to point out that my post was simply an opinion, as flawed as it may be, which was not intentionally directed at anyone specific. I probably should never have posted it under this topic, but I found it interesting and it reminded me of some personal bad experiences with \"trolls\" and other non-legit customers.

------------------
Ian
Analoguesque Sound Designs http://www.analoguesque.com (\"http://www.analoguesque.com\")

PS. I stand by our slogan \"Forget what you know and have heard before about samplers ... Analoguesque rewrites the book!\". This is because I am yet to find a commercial developer using the same technique we use. I am also a buyer after all http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif.

[This message has been edited by Analoguesque (edited 03-05-2002).]

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Analoguesque:
I probably should never have posted it under this topic, but I found it interesting and it reminded me of some personal bad experiences with \"trolls\" and other non-legit customers.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don\'t want to flog the old horse and all that, but I find it interesting that a developer-custard-pie fight reminded you of trolls and non-legit customers. (hee, hee)

I\'m off to listen to some of those \"Forget what you know and have heard before about samplers ... Analoguesque rewrites the book!\" samples.

They\'d better be good, or I\'ll give them some flagrant abuse (just kidding).

[Analoguesque]

Awwww jeeez, I\'m trying here. Help me out http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif .

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Z6:
They\'d better be good, or I\'ll give them some flagrant abuse (just kidding).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



------------------
Ian
Analoguesque Sound Designs
http://www.analoguesque.com

[Cool7s_Dad]

Nice post Ian. I\'m glad I was right about you (being a good guy). http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Later,
Tim

[Munsie]

jeeshh.. this giga market must be VERY small. When the Giga market gets bigger, I seriously doubt we\'ll see threads like this. Enjoy them while we can. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif As far as developers selling libraries for a grand a pop, yah, I feel their pain. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Peter Gorges / Wizoo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NYBLUE:
.....So Gary must be doing something right. Don\'t sample developers realize that their negative posts turn many people off and cheapen the perceptions of their products and their own integrity? Sample developers would do better to follow Gary\'s lead. It will mean better libraries, more innovation, improved service and more choices for all of us.

Keep up the good work Gary!

\'Maestro\' NYBLUE<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jealousy is a typical aspect of the music tech business in general, and Gary gives every sample developer a good reason to be jealous because he did so much right it\'s almost scary. I have his library and I think it\'s admirable how a single person can create such a perfect product in terms of concept and realization.



------------------
Peter Gorges
CEO
www.wizoo.com
www.wizoosounds.com

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jamesmcwilliams:


But... I have yet to hear anything that has been produced with GOS that makes me think for even a second that i am listening to real strings. Sorry, but thats my opinion.
In fact Kirk hunter sounds better in all the demo\'s i\'ve heard so far.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi James. Have you heard Jeremy Soule\'s two demos at the GOS website yet?

They are absolutely mind-blowing.

[thesoundsmith]

[quote]
But... I have yet to hear anything that has been produced with GOS that makes me think for even a second that i am listening to real strings. Sorry, but thats my opinion.
In fact Kirk hunter sounds better in all the demo\'s i\'ve heard so far.
[\\quote]

That\'s what makes ball games. That\'s why we need BOTH Kirk Hunter AND GOS (and Miroslav, and DanDean, etc.)

I\'m going to throw an ignoramus-style curve ball in here.

I DON\'T CARE!!!! THEY ALL SOUND GREAT.

I hear differences between KH, GOS and live. BUT-they all can bring out the same emotional response, and THAT\'S what music is about. Not how accurate, but how INVOLVING.

A poor player sounds bad with great tools. A great player sounds great with poor tools. He/she will sound better with great tools, but the power is in the music and the musician, not the sample.

If I take a sweet, pretty string swell and try to play use it to say \'ominous\', it will fail. But that\'s ME, not IT. I made a poor decision.

These are wonderful libraries. Enjoy them. Make MUSIC, not factional whining. Save your energy to create your art. Or your business. And think of all the string players you\'re putting out of work! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif
(Just kidding. Old joke, supposedly true story: Major LA studio, for six hours a 40-piece string section has been laboring to perfect a cue which includes a 1-octave glissando over four bars. Time and again, they ALMOST get it. Finally, it is correct. The conductor puts down his baton and says, \"Thank you, everyone. I just want you to know that the 40 of you have just put one &%$#@ synthesist out of work!\" The string section cheers madly...)

Dasher

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>


the power is in the music and the musician, not the sample.


Dasher<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Dasher, I\'ve got a jobload of Stylophones over here.

I was going to use GOS to do a huge orchestral mockup of \'Tie Me Kangaroo Down Sport\', but you\'ve inspired me to go back to my roots.

:-)

[thesoundsmith]

Zman,

Sample the stylophone! Put it up on wizzoo. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif

It\'s just yer basic square wave, if I remember right, but nothing else sounds quite like it (thank goodness!)

Play it with style! (Ouch!) Suggestions for the \"Stylophone\'s Greatest Hits\" CD include:

Flight of the Bubbabee (the county version.)

Edgar Winter\'s Frankenstein, Part II

What\'s the Buzz, Tell Me What\'s a-Happening from JC Superstar.

Be My Little Baby Bumblebee (early 30\'s tune, I believe)

and last but not least...
Stylo way (Why don\'t we just)

Available at all KTel outlets!

Dasher

[thesoundsmith]

Die, thread, DIE!!!!! Ha ha ha ha haaaa...

Seriously, folks-if you like a library, USE IT. If you don\'t, DON\'T

Sniping the developers, either by users OR developers, does NOTHING to boost the credibility of this product.

Legitimate complaints, comments about the strengths and weaknesses of a library, and the places where it is or is not useful can be highly valuable. Childish bashing because a particular patch does not do what YOU think it should is irrelevant.

You want something that\'s missing, request it. You want to complain because you spend big bucks on a library and it doesn\'t do what was advertised, cool. It doesn\'t fit in your mix? Your problem-that\'s why God made EQ and FX. You DID listen to the demo, didn\'t you?

But unless the developer is DELIBERATELY fraudulent, kwicherbichin and learn your tools.

And try to come up with a viable alternative to the no refund policy. That\'s the REAL solution.

And if you\'re a developer, recognise that the more you bad-mouth other developers, the worse YOU look. Because the happy customers of the bashee will arise and howl. If you feel the need to complain about the quality of some library, consider direct email rather than public forum complaints. THEN when you feel there is sufficient grounds to go public, tell us about the problem, and the communication. We\'ll respect that (maybe.)

Developers, we love you. Without you, GS is a piano library. Respect each other, so we can all play together nicely. Please.

Dasher

[Jamesmcwilliams]

Well well, i come back to the board after being absent for a while and this debates still going http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I think nick was just being honest, GOS may be great when it comes to the amount of articulations and the customer support.

But... I have yet to hear anything that has been produced with GOS that makes me think for even a second that i am listening to real strings. Sorry, but thats my opinion.
In fact Kirk hunter sounds better in all the demo\'s i\'ve heard so far.

[Jamesmcwilliams]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Z6:
Hi James. Have you heard Jeremy Soule\'s two demos at the GOS website yet?

They are absolutely mind-blowing.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No i havent, but i most certainly will once i get a chance, Jeremy soule is an excellent composer, one of my favourites.

Maybe that\'ll change my mind about GOS http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I\'ll let yer know. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by thesoundsmith:
Zman,

Flight of the Bubbabee (the county version.)


Dasher<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hee, hee. That\'s my favorite.

[thesoundsmith]

10/4, good buddy! (That\'s divided 3/3/2/2!)

Dasher

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Z6:
Hi James. Have you heard Jeremy Soule\'s two demos at the GOS website yet?

They are absolutely mind-blowing.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


They are indeed. I just can\'t imagine how long it took him to do them though http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

He is a major talent, and it\'s a great demo for Gary\'s strings. And what\'s with the high woodwinds? Love to know what he\'s using for those....