GPO for Christmas for my son - help!

[totalnewbie]

My son is a genius pianist and is composing high level classical pieces on piano. He dreams of composing fully orchestrated pieces centered around his piano compositions, and I ordered the GPO for him for Christmas. The problem is, I have no idea which computer to buy him to go along with this program! He wants a MAC (that's what I use), but everything I am reading is extremely confusing as to which MAC will support the full orchestra. Some sites say you need a MAC Intel, but that Leopard doesn't support it. Don't all new MAC's come with Leopard now? Do I have to buy a used MAC with the older operating system? I don't want to give him a used computer for Christmas, though! Also, how do you play the piano with GPO? Can he somehow connect his electric keyboard to the computer and use GPO with that as he plays or something? Sorry to ask what probably sound like idiot questions, but I am like a fish out of water with this stuff. Any help would sure be appreciated! Thank you!

[LFO]

Greetings and welcome to the world of GPO!
Based on my experience I would purchase a 3.0 GHz 24 inch iMac. Any upgrades you want (4 gigabytes of memory is the only way to go) purchase through a 3rd party because Apple is too expensive. Get a Firewire audio card, run it off of the Firewire 400 port. Use the Firewire 800 port for firewire 800 drives. (I prefer Glyph, but other brands will work well too as long as they are 7200 RPMs or above.)

The iMac will provide more than enough power for GPO. If you decide to go with `larger' libraries down the road you will probably need to go Mac Pro. That being said, I have used 24 GPO tracks with no problem. I also use other libraries, but the iMac does get strained with some of the bigger libraries out there. If you have the budget and can go Mac Pro with 8 gig of memory and several internal drives go for it. You should not consider a Mac Book. If you have to have a laptop you need to go with a Mac Book Pro. Again, 4 gig of memory, etc. Personally, the allure of a laptop was strong but in the end I'm glad I went with the iMac. I can't quantify that for you, it is just a gut feeling.

Does your son have a sequencer? Normally, I would say start with the least expensive, Reaper, but with GPO you will have to do a great deal of MIDI editing and Reaper is not there yet IMHO. Other options are Digital Performer (Get version 5.13, not 6.x if you can) Logic 8 and Cubase. Each has strengths and weaknesses, the bottom line is no matter what you buy you can get the job done.

Have you purchased an audio card? If not, what is your budget? Lots of folks will provide suggestions around that too. Personally I've been very happy with Mark of the Unicorn Firewire devices. There are lots of great options though.

More questions will undoubtedly crop up, I am sure you will find several folks here on the forum will be glad to help out.

-Kevin

[totalnewbie]

This is so helpful to me, you have no idea! Thank you.

Right now he composes on our Yamaha Grand Piano and his Yamaha P-120. The P-120 does have MIDI in/out, although he has never connected it to a computer before. Will he be able to use it with GPO somehow?

He doesn't have a sequencer (whatever that is!). Didn't know he would need anything other than GPO itself. Glad I asked! No audio card, either. How in the world am I going to put all this together for him with all the right stuff he will need in time for Christmas? Are there people who do this that will get all this stuff and come to my house and get it all dialed in? I am starting to feel like I'm in over my head...yikes.

Are sequencers and audio cards expensive? What else might he need? Sorry for my ignorance about all this. I just want to make my son's dream come true this Christmas.

[bigears]

Hi, It sounds like you could benefit from talking with a sales associate at Sweetwater Sound, or somewhere similar. They are a retailer in Ft.Wayne, Indiana but deal with customers worldwide. I'm sure someone there could help you put the perfect system together without any missteps. Good luck, John

[Jeff Turner]

Either a sequencer or a notation program is needed to use GPO. GPO is only the sound source that these programs play through.

A sequencer would require that your son enter his music via midi, and use the sequencer's tools for editing that midi information.

A notation program would require that your son enter music via standard music notation and use those elements to create his compositions.

That's the basics and overly simplified, although many composer's use both types of programs at different points in their creative process.

Jeff

[C J Pro]

I would recommend getting an iMac (the new Intel ones) with Leopard as that will handle GPO. GPO does now work with Leopard, I've even been using it on Leopard a short while after Leopard's release. Just make sure you update GPO after installing it to iron out any bugs with Leopard that may appear.

There are actually two different kinds of programs for actually writing the music: sequencers and notation software. Sequencers allow one to modify the music with a higher level of precision but don't quite have the capabilities to edit music through the notes and staves everyone is used to. Notation Software lets you edit music through the notes and staves visually but does not quite give the same level of precision and control. Here, I am using Sibelius 4.1 which is a notation program. I would recommend getting Finale as that will give your sun a notation program that he can get used to quickly while also giving him GPO which is built-into Finale.

The only thing I would worry about is the P-120 as the MIDI IN/OUT on it seems to connect to a Serial port. I don't think any Macs (let alone many PCs I have seen) have serial ports. What you might want to look into are MIDI Controllers which function like a piano but gives your son more control over each instrument.

So in the end, I would recommend an iMac with Finale (don't have to buy GPO separate when purchasing Finale) and also to look into a MIDI Controller. You can run Finale without a MIDI Controller, you just have to enter the notes by hand. That's not a big deal as I am horrible at playing my MIDI Controller into Sibelius and thus just enter the notes by hand anyway.

[totalnewbie]

Wonderful information, thank you all so much for helping me. I know that iMac's come with Logic 8 pre-installed so that should work for his sequencer, right? I'll ask the guys over at Mac about the MIDI connection while I'm there for his computer. Any other suggestions/help/info is really appreciated if anyone else has any thoughts that might help.

[indianamusic]

You can order an iMac with Logic pre-installed(at an additional cost) I believe, but it does not come with it installed at no cost. Look at the Apple Store and see. It will come with GarageBand which is not a bad place to start - then move up to Logic. I have used GB for smaller projects.

[LFO]

We could be more helpful if you tell us what your budget is.
*****Edit: I'm inserting here that I am a Sweetwater fan and that is why I've provided links to Sweetwater when giving product recommendations. They have provided me unfailing good service even though I am a small customer, including shipping replacements before I ship back a faulty piece of equipment. I'll take it one step further and say if you want to deal with Sweetwater give Carson a call at extension 1302. He's great and won't try to oversell you. They have a 12 month zero interest deal going on that might help for unexpected costs. Welcome to the unending gear sinkhole of audio! </end Sweetwater promo> :o

As I see it, you are going to need the following:

1) Sequencer (Logic, Cubase, Digital Performer etc.)

2) MIDI Controller Keyboard - For what your son is doing, I would recommend at minimum a 61 key controller. 76 is probably much better. There are various threads with people's opinions on controllers. What kind of touch the keys have (like an organ, like a piano and in between the two) what kind of mod and pitch bend devices they have (most prefer wheels) and whether the board has aftertouch or not (having it is much preferred) and whether you want some sounds built in or not are some qualifications for choosing a controller. I would look through some threads here (search on controller) and see what people like / dislike. Guitar Center carries some controller brands that Sweetwater does not that are worth looking at.

3) Audio Interface - see the following list priced low to high from Sweetwater: http://www.sweetwater.com/c683--FireWire_Audio_Interfaces/low2high I would talk to someone like a Sweetwater rep to see which one will be suit your needs and is totally Mac compatible.

4) At least one external drive. GPO will go on the internal drive. However, the samples for GPO, meaning the orchestral should reside on an external drive. Further, you want to save your projects to yet another drive. Last of all, you want to have another drive to backup to. I know this sounds like a huge amount and this is the optimum setup. You could get away with GPO and project files on the internal drive and the sample library for GPO on an external drive. Remember, minimum 7200 RPMs! Firewire is much preferred by me, others mileage may differ. Don't skip out on a backup drive. Imagine this. Your son finishes several pieces and his hard drive fails and he loses it all. Need I say more? :)

There is a great deal to swallow here no doubt. However, it is manageable. Listen to what the good folks here have to say and then get further advice from a reseller. I highly recommend you post what you intend to purchase on this forum before purchasing. We are all experienced with exactly what your son is getting into and will be able to help you avoid any pitfalls should they crop up.

-Kevin

[Leaf]

I have a new macbook pro which is 2.5 Ghz, and came with Leopard. Haven't had any problems using the full GPO in Finale, but it's new and so far all i have done with it is load midi files into it and assigned instruments.

I think the suggestion for the iMac is a good one, because they have up to 3.6 Ghz. I haven't had any trouble with 2.5, but cannot say how it does with a large orchestral piece or how it would do running a DAW, because i haven't used it yet for those.

I always like to recommend Finale, because i think almost anyone would love this program, unless he already has it or Sibilius, which is also said to be very good.

Apple has a discount for students if he is enrolled, and so does Finale and many others.

David

PS: I think the Yamaha keyboard will work, but he'll have to go to yamaha.com and download the drivers for that keyboard... that may not be required with Leopard, but was for Tiger.

[rwayland]

LFO knows his stuff! So does Leaf.

Sweetwater is a good place to deal with. I would suggest both a sequencer and a notation program. Sequencers generally have very limited notational functionality. Notation software generally is either limited or klutzy for playback.

You can work by entering the music via the Yamaha keyboard to the sequencer, get the sound as you wish, then import to the notation software for a top quality score.

My preference is Sibelius for notation. Very good support site and good discussion site. For sequencer, I prefer Sonar, but I don't know if it is available for Mac.

Richard

[Reegs]

I want to add that you need not get everything at once. You'll spoil the fun of GAS (gear acquisition syndrome) :)

1. Audio/midi interface. Core Audio (Mac's built-in audio system) is very good and will offer your son a great starting point for MIDI. If he's not recording 16 tracks of audio simultaneously or requiring playback of more than ten or so instrument staves at once while playing in parts live on a keyboard with near-zero latency (delay) then it'll do just fine.

Instead, you can spend $30 on a little tool like the product in the link below that will convert the MIDI DIN5 cable output on the P120 into a USB cable that any computer will be able to read.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XMIDI1x1/

The MIDI controller can be a future investment if he wants it later and has a better idea of what he needs in a controller (birthday??).

2. Mac. I agree that an iMac would be a good purchase. A Macbook Pro would also be a handy (mobile) investment. Go MBPro if you choose laptop because they offer firewire ports for eventual expansion (see point 1).

3. 7200rpm drives. I want to counter the claim that these are a requirement for GPO. I have it loaded on my laptop (HP Pavillion with a 5400rpm drive) and have no troubles with disk streaming.

4. Sequencer/Notation/Garage Band. Garage Band 3 is a good starting program. Reaper is in beta for Mac but would also offer good expandability for sequencing (and it's free to evaluate for an indefinite period). Sonar is not available on the Mac platform, however Logic Express and Steinberg Cubase Essential are, and for a decent price they will offer your son room to learn the basics of sequencers (and an upgrade path to the more powerful ones if need be).

Sibelius and Finale are both powerful programs for notation and offer lite student editions (as well as upgrades/educational discounts).

Hope this helps,
Reegs

[totalnewbie]

I just ordered the MIDI/USB converter cable from Sweetwater - thanks for the tip! After reading everyone here recommending the iMac, somebody else just told me NOT to get an iMac but rather to get a refurbished G5 instead?

Okay, here is what I'm thinking of doing...tell me if I'm on the right track:

Get a 24" 3.06ghz iMac with 4gb. Have Apple install Logic on it. Already ordered the MIDI/USB converter cable. Already ordered GPO. Have my son use his P-120 to use with the Mac's Core Audio system that's already built in (for starters, anyway).

Do I also need to check out this "Finale" and see about getting that as well?

How'm I doin' here?

[danpowers]

Do I also need to check out this "Finale" and see about getting that as well?
Only if your son is interested in inputting music notation.

If he's more performance oriented, Logic should be enough. But if he wants to create printed sheet music, Finale (or a similar program) will be essential at some point.

You might also look at one of the entry-level versions of Finale, like PrintMusic or Allegro. These are essentially cut-down versions of Finale, but still pretty capable, and there's an upgrade path to the full Finale if you decide you need it later on.

[buckshead]

If you're on a budget and not sure about whether to buy too much to start with, look out for "Computer Music". Its published in UK but can be bought over the water, I know. Its a monthly mag probably about $10. There is a lot of software that is provided FREE each month, always a simple sequencer, a complete set of studio applications. This might help if cash is tight.

If he takes to using this sort of kit then buy Logic or Cubase etc but they're both very expensive.

[LFO]

It sounds like you are headed down the right path and have had some great advice from several people. :)

I was going to avoid notation programs, but since they have been brought up I'll add a few points. Each notation program I am familiar with (Finale, Sibelius, Overture and Notion) has a `lite' version that is not as feature rich, but will certainly get the job done. Some also have educational discounts that you might be able to take advantage of. No one can tell you which program would make the most sense for your son, it will entirely depend on how he thinks and what his workflow is. Every program has a demo version and I highly recommend he try before you buy. ;) Also take into account the community around the software as each provides a rich `family' that your son can interact, learn from and eventually share his expertise with.

Using the internal Mac audio functions will do for the time being and is a good way to save a few $$.

Although I don't want to sound like I'm countering the counter about drive speed I guess I am. :) 5400 RPM drives would suffice for GPO no doubt. However, as your son expands his palette, (and everyone does) it won't do the job. 7200 RPM drives are the widely accepted standard and will allow you to grow without potentially having to buy newer, faster drives.

A few notes about Logic. If your son is completely new to this world he is going to need some help. Logic is, well, very logical to me. Not so for others. There are several online tutorial sites that will teach how to use Logic. MacProVideo.com is a good site and there are others out there that are great also. Google Logic tutorial and you will find plenty out there. For GPO help he can come here. There are also tutorials on garritan.com for using GPO in Logic 7 that are close enough to version 8 to be useful. Additionally there are tutorials for using Sibelius, Finale, etc. with GPO.

-Kevin

[totalnewbie]

Okay, today I am headed to the Apple store to buy the iMac! I'm having them install Logic 8. He'll still be able to use it as a regular computer for word processing and email, right? I guess my question is, does GPO need a dedicated computer?

I went ahead and ordered the full version of Finale! They were having a sale at Sweetwater.com today only and I got it for $499. I also ordered him a Finale instructional book from there.

Since you guys said that the Core Audio in the Mac will suffice for now, I'm going to let him get started with that and then if he wants/needs more down the road that will be a good idea for his birthday (as one of you suggested!).

So I guess he should be all set once I get that stuff and get it all installed for him. I'm excited! You guys should expect to be hearing from him alot after Christmas, as I am going to recommend that he come here for all his questions :)

Thank you all very much!!!

[schneb]

Sounds wonderful. Your son is going to go nuts. Make sure he gets a little sunshine now and then. ;)

I write for the Garritan Wiki (http://garritan.info/index.php/GarageBand) regarding Macintosh, so feel free to ask away here. Listen to a few of my pieces here (http://schneb.googlepages.com/musicmenu). They were all made using Garritan on GarageBand alone. Your son will most likely need to go further than what GarageBand offers, so consider indianamusic's advice above and obtain it when you purchase the Mac.

Yes, an Intel iMac with Leopard will do the trick. Not sure yet what Snow Leopard will offer, but we will cross that bridge when we come to it. :)

Make sure you max out the RAM. OSX loves RAM and works far better and faster when you have enough of it--GPO is also highly dependent on RAM because that is where the sample load. It will also not hurt if you get a large hard drive. This way, your son will never have to worry about "saving space", but can concentrate on experimentation and orchestration.

Here is a suggested unit...

2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Duo iMac with 24" screen
4GB memory
500GB drive
Logic Express pre-installed

I would also suggest the AppleCare Protection Plan to extend the warranty. Every time I purchase it, nothing ever goes wrong with my Macs. ;)

As for your son's current keyboards, all he really needs is a MIDI to USB converter to get those to work on the Mac. Here are some examples (http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=products.family&ID=midiinterfaces). The MIDISPORT 2x2 Anniversary Edition looks pretty good.
_________________________________________________

Now, something to consider... give him a card good for the next Mac offerings that will come in the next month. It will be a bit of a disappointment at first, but at least he will get the next generation Macs rather than last years offerings. As good as they are now, something better is in store in January at MacWorld 09. Many are speculating new iMac bumps and pricing, as well as a possible revamp of the Mac Mini. At least that is what I am foreseeing.

[Hippie]

Okay, today I am headed to the Apple store to buy the iMac! I'm having them install Logic 8. He'll still be able to use it as a regular computer for word processing and email, right? I guess my question is, does GPO need a dedicated computer?

I went ahead and ordered the full version of Finale! They were having a sale at Sweetwater.com today only and I got it for $499. I also ordered him a Finale instructional book from there.

Since you guys said that the Core Audio in the Mac will suffice for now, I'm going to let him get started with that and then if he wants/needs more down the road that will be a good idea for his birthday (as one of you suggested!).

So I guess he should be all set once I get that stuff and get it all installed for him. I'm excited! You guys should expect to be hearing from him alot after Christmas, as I am going to recommend that he come here for all his questions :)

Thank you all very much!!!



Do you want to adopt me?....PLEASE. :D

All I'll get for Christmas around here is new socks.....maybe.

[schneb]

All I'll get for Christmas around here is new socks.....maybe.
Maybe its the way you answer the question, "What do you want for Christmas?"

You say, "I want what ROCKS!" But it sounds like "I want some SOCKS!" ;)

[Hippie]

Maybe its the way you answer the question, "What do you want for Christmas?"

You say, "I want what ROCKS!" But it sounds like "I want some SOCKS!" ;)


LOL

Last year I bought myself a Yamaha So8 and a Fender Tele for Christmas. I have been hinting that I want a Gibson E335 this year or a Les Paul but I'm not holding my breath. LOL

[Jeff Turner]

If it's not too late with your Finale order, Finale is available at a significant discount for students. Here's one example:

http://www.academicsuperstore.com/product/search?qk_srch=finale+2009&x=17&y=4

Hope your son likes reading manuals, he's gonna have a lot to learn.

JT

[schneb]

If it's not too late with your Finale order, Finale is available at a significant discount for students.
For a budding orchestrator, I would highly recommend Jeff's suggestion over Logic.

[schneb]

I have been hinting that I want a Les Paul
Look at this new pup for a little Christmas 0-|| longing (http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Les-Paul/Gibson-USA/DarkFire/Technology.aspx). :)

[Hippie]

look at this new pup for a little christmas 0-|| longing (http://www2.gibson.com/products/electric-guitars/les-paul/gibson-usa/darkfire/technology.aspx). :)


oh-oh.


Lol

[totalnewbie]

A wonderful gentleman from Sweetwater called me today to verify my order (I had ordered Finale and a manual online from them) and when I told him what I was trying to put together and told him a little about my son, he said that he highly recommended Sibelius 1 (the educational version). Although that one is only 99 buck and the Finale was $499, he said he would rather see me get the one that is a better fit for my son than to have me spend money unnecessarily. Wow! They certainly have my business from now on! It reminded me of "Miracle on 34th Street" where Kris Kringle was directing people to places other than Macy's to buy certain toys in order to get a better deal :)

He took the time to explain all the differences to me, and I went ahead and changed my order to the Sibelius 1. He also suggested an external hard drive, so I got one of those as well. The total, including a Sibelius manual, still came out to less than what my original order had been.

[schneb]

Well good. If you have an external drive then you do not need a large drive in the iMac, since all work will be done on the external. That works too. :)

[LFO]

A wonderful gentleman from Sweetwater called me today to verify my order (I had ordered Finale and a manual online from them) and when I told him what I was trying to put together and told him a little about my son, he said that he highly recommended Sibelius 1 (the educational version). Although that one is only 99 buck and the Finale was $499, he said he would rather see me get the one that is a better fit for my son than to have me spend money unnecessarily. Wow! They certainly have my business from now on! It reminded me of "Miracle on 34th Street" where Kris Kringle was directing people to places other than Macy's to buy certain toys in order to get a better deal :)

He took the time to explain all the differences to me, and I went ahead and changed my order to the Sibelius 1. He also suggested an external hard drive, so I got one of those as well. The total, including a Sibelius manual, still came out to less than what my original order had been.

This is exactly why I stick with Sweetwater. They know how to be fair.

-Kevin

[schneb]

Have you a plan, hardware-wise? Are you going to get something now, or wait for better offerings after MacWorld?