Bass Clarinet - throat tones question

[ejr]

Okay, I know I really take to heart what the orchestration books say about the "difficult" or "problem" areas of various instruments and go out of my way to avoid them. But I'm in a real spot with several of my pieces and I'm wondering how strictly I have to adhere to all these rules.

Here's the situation: I am nearly finished orchestrating a musical that I wrote. My pit orchestra has four reed players. One of them primarily plays bassoon, but occassionally doubles on the bass clarinet. (He also doubles on a Bb Clarinet in a couple numbers where I don't need a reed bass and the part would be a little too agile for the French Horn). So far, so good.

But I have two numbers where I need the Bass Clarinet as the lowest wind instrument for the bulk of the tune and it also has to go into the middle ("thoat") range sometimes (concert Eb below middle C, up to the top of the bass staff). Ordinarily, I would use the bassoon for numbers like this. But I don't want to because the clarinet just sounds better and I have used the bassoon so much all ready that I need a little variety. The other three reeds are occupied and the French Horn is either being used as well or sounds a bit to muddy if used there.

In one number, I am contrasting the verses (where the strings, piano, and flute predominate) with the choruses (which feature a pad consisting of the French Horn, over a Bb Clarinet and Bass Clarinet.) The Bass Clarinet is basically sustaining the G#, Db and E below middle C in the chords. In the verses, the Bass Clarinet drops down to its "normal" lower range, alternating with the cello.

In the other number, I have a relatively fast moving ostinato that lasts for an entire verse. Orginally, I had the Bb Clarinet playing it alone. Then, trying to sing the line, I decided that it would probably be too difficult for one musician to play. (I kept running out of breath.) Since the tempo is in 5/4 time and chiefly consists of 3-beat motifs followed by 2-beat "answer" phrases and vice versa, I thought it would be a good idea to try alternating the Bb Clarinet with the Bass Clarinet. But this would put the Bass Clarinet into its throat tones a lot, over and over again, in this verse. (In the rest of the song, the Bass Clarinet plays in its "normal", low register.) I tried substituting the Bassoon, but I found the difference in timber between it and the clarinet a little too noticable. This section is just one iteration of an ostinato pattern that substitutes for a pad between the bass line and the melody in the treble clef.

All I have to go by is what this sounds like on my DAW. I am using Westgate's Clarinet sample libraries with Kontakt 2 (and the Bassoon sample libaries that came with Kontakt.) Both of the above parts sound just fine with these instruments. The Bass Clarinet is a part of a harmony pad (in one case consisting of sustained notes, and in the other as part of a moving repetitive riff). Since, hopefully, this will one day be played by live pit musicians, I want to be sure that I am not giving them anything that is technically impossible or unreasonably difficult to play. I know Broadway pit musicians can play virtually anything and make it sound great. But, having been in show business for most of my life, I know the harsh reality is that most shows never make it to Broadway and those that do must first be successfull elsewhere and I want to make sure it's playable by any reasonably good musician. (A little difficult is okay with me. But impossible, or only playable by a few of the greatest musicians is not.)

I would appreciate any feedback from bass clarinet players - or bassoon players who double on the bass clarinet. Thanks.

(And BTW - I'd still like to see a real Broadway/musical theater thread here!)

[danpowers]

I think you're worrying too much. The entire range of the bass clarinet is perfectly playable, and the upper and middle registers are not more difficult than the lower. Granted that the lower register gets used more often, but there's no reason to write the entire part below the break.

[bmdaustin]

Agreed - the bass has a hugely usable range. Don't be afraid to use it. However, I will suggest that you take into account the general ability level of the players you're most likely to encounter. While symphony bass clarinetists will have no problem in the octave above the staff, a doubler, or someone whose principal instrument is something other than clarinet/bass clarinet might have more difficulty up there. In any case, the throat tones are fair game. In fact, I'd say that anything on or below the treble clef should be within the range for even a more marginal player.

One other caveat re: bass clarinet ranges. It's only recently that low C instruments have become more commonplace, and I see more and more theater parts written for this instrument. However, very few doublers own low C horns. We all bought our horns when low Eb was the written limit and I, for one, am not ponying up $7-9k for a new low C horn when my used low Eb horn will only fetch maybe $2k at the most. That's a lot of cash for three notes!

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that while you can write those notes, they won't necesssarily be played in that octave in performance. If you absolutely have to have those exact pitches write for bassoon or even Eb contra alto clarinet. I can more easily borrow one of those from a school than I can find a spare low C bass to borrow.

[snorlax]

It might also be wise to leave a little extra time for any within-tune switches, as there may be a mental as well as a physical adjustment from single- to double-reed and vice-versa, and the size of the instruments requires a bit of maneuvering.

If it's one number on one horn, then switch horns for the next number (and the first number doesn't segue directly into the next) you're probably good to go.

[ejr]

Thanks for all the input. And, yes, I have tried never to have the reed players switching instruments within a number, or in a number that immediately follows. I've only had to do it a few times in the score, and then only when there is a long break between the two.

[Gustov Varbirski]

I say you're fortunate to have reed players who can double. These days, most don't. If they do, they're probably pretty decent.

[master1]

Dear Eir,
I think you posted a very interesting question.
The best advice I can give is to see how Beethoven performed Bb clarinets
in the first movement of the "Eroica". It is a 3/4 and he gives a very very simple part to play to clarinets.
Beethoven gives the basis of the harmonic structure to clarinets and leaves to violins and horns to be brilliant.
Cellos could move more in an easier way (but I am a J. Dupre's fan so I am always for the cellos):hp:. Anyway I follow Beethoven and Vivaldi: they like to surprise with the cellos.
Now you ar playing 5/4, so you want someone to dance.
I would be not so worried of who is playing clarinets, because I should write an easy part.
I would be focused on the dancers and keep the harmony structure as simple as possible.
I tell you this because, while you were posting, I was arranging a part for oboes and Bb clarinets, and I decided to solve it this way.
Have a brilliant composition time.
Best, Master1. *()

[bmdaustin]

Thanks for all the input. And, yes, I have tried never to have the reed players switching instruments within a number, or in a number that immediately follows. I've only had to do it a few times in the score, and then only when there is a long break between the two.

It's perfectly fine and reasonable to have reed players switch instruments in the middle of a particular piece. It happens all the time and reed players expect it. As has been stated, the main issue is allowing enough time for the player to physically (and safely) put the first horn down and pick up the second one. As an example, I'm booked to play the touring production of "Legally Blonde" when it comes through my town in February. My book calls for seven instruments (two saxes, two clarinets, and two flutes plus a penny whistle), one of which I've never played before (aforementioned Irish penny whistle), so I'm sure I'll be switching back and forth fairly often.

FWIW, the one switch I dread is having to play sax (any of them) or clarinet (particularly) for a long time and then immediately pick up a flute for an exposed solo line, which is inevitably in an upper register and piano or pianissimo. The reason for this (my dreading the switch) is that saxes require a larger, looser embrouchure which has to be refocused quickly and clarinets require a firm embrouchure that temporarily somewhat deforms the lips (spreads our chops, as they say) which makes it difficult to control the flute tone as well. Given a break of 15-20 seconds or more, we can work around this problem, but immediate switches of this sort are really difficult and the flute solo would be in jeopardy to an extent.

An issue specific to double reeds is that, unlike clarinets and saxes, the double reed players remove their reeds from those instruments and put them back in a container of water to keep them wet for the next entrance - so, you have to allow enough time to not only just pick up the instrument, but time for them to retrieve the reed from the water, put it onto the horn, and THEN be prepared to make the next entrance. It can be done, but it needs to be done with proper consideration.

[GDG]

Okay, I know I really take to heart what the orchestration books say about the "difficult" or "problem" areas of various instruments and go out of my way to avoid them. But I'm in a real spot with several of my pieces and I'm wondering how strictly I have to adhere to all these rules.

**

I would appreciate any feedback from bass clarinet players - or bassoon players who double on the bass clarinet. Thanks.

(And BTW - I'd still like to see a real Broadway/musical theater thread here!)

The throat tones are really only problematic because the timbre is a bit different from the ranges above and below them. On the other hand, the weaker timbre means that the bass clarinet sound will blend in, and not stick out of the chord. If it doesn't turn out to be loud enough, or if you want the bass clarinet timbre to be audible, you could try dropping it an octave.

Although it is possible to write something unplayable, the throat range is not particularly more susceptible. If you want to post a few excerpts of the (transposed) part, I can tell you how difficult (or not) it would be for your pit musician. (I've played a number of shows, typically the Reed V part -- bari sax, bass clarinet, bassoon, flutes, etc.). If you're concerned that a particular player might not hack it, you can always make that passage part of the audition.

With regard to ranges, a high school player should be able to cover the bass clarinet at least up to the (written) C above the treble staff, and it is not uncommon to see bass clarinet parts up to the F above that in show books.

Woodwind players in pit orchestras typically get paid extra for each double that is required. They not only expect to double, they hope for it.

Enjoy,

Grant

[bmdaustin]

Since we've kind of gotten off the main thread, I went back and reread it again, focusing on the ostinato problem. From an orchestrational viewpoint, other options would be to give the part to a cello or viola (if strings area vailable) or keyboard where breathing isn't a problem. Another thought is to take advantage of the call/response nature of your ostinato and play up the differences between the 3 beat phrase and the two beat phrase by alternating instruments or ranges. Finally, if it's an option, alter the ostinato itself over time to provide possibilities for breathing.

You were wise to try and sing the line first. Sadly, many modern shows are written by keyboard players on a computer and breathing apparently isn't taken into account.

[Frank D]

Hi EJR,

Yes, good pit reed guys will play all over the big horn with ease and stay in-tune. It would pose absolutely no problem.

For what it's worth, (and an even more difficult proposition for the low clarinet player), replacing the extended range Bb bass clarinets in many B'way shows over the past 10-15 years is the EEb Contra alto clarinet (an even bigger beast that sounds better and has more bottom power than trying to stretch a bass clarinet down to C) and when you listen to the reed V guy warm up on the contra alto, he'll play chromatic runs from top to bottom with absolutely no problems.

For "average" and "less-than-great" bass clarinet players, I think what's more important than playing the throat tones per se, is playing across the break (between written Bb in the throat up the half step to B-natural and above), since this is a single-finger to all-fingers key closing change (plus octave key). If the passage is very fast, or goes back and forth across the break a lot, THAT could pose a problem on any clarinet.

Regards,

Frank

[Frank D]

Hi EJR,

Yes, good pit reed guys will play all over the big horn with ease and stay in-tune. It would pose absolutely no problem.

For what it's worth, (and an even more difficult proposition for the low clarinet player), replacing the extended range Bb bass clarinets in many B'way shows over the past 10-15 years is the EEb Contra alto clarinet (an even bigger beast that sounds better and has more bottom power than trying to stretch a bass clarinet down to C) and when you listen to the reed V guy warm up on the contra alto, he'll play chromatic runs from top to bottom with absolutely no problems.

For "average" and "less-than-great" bass clarinet players, I think what's more important than playing the throat tones per se, is playing across the break (between written Bb in the throat up the half step to B-natural and above), since this is a single-finger to all-fingers key closing change (plus octave key). If the passage is very fast, or goes back and forth across the break a lot, THAT could pose a problem on any clarinet.

Regards,

Frank

[Frank D]

Hi EJR,

I tried posting this last night but it didn't append the thread ... hopefully this makes it!

Yes, good pit reed guys will play all over the big horn with ease and stay in-tune. It would pose absolutely no problem.

For what it's worth, (and an even more difficult proposition for the low clarinet player), replacing the extended range Bb bass clarinets in many B'way shows over the past 10-15 years is the EEb Contra alto clarinet (an even bigger beast that sounds better and has more bottom power than trying to stretch a bass clarinet down to C) and when you listen to the reed V guy warm up on the contra alto, he'll play chromatic runs from top to bottom with absolutely no problems.

For "average" and "less-than-great" bass clarinet players, I think what's more important than playing the throat tones per se, is playing across the break (between written Bb in the throat up the half step to B-natural and above), since this is a single-finger to all-fingers key closing change (plus octave key). If the passage is very fast, or goes back and forth across the break a lot, THAT could pose a problem on any clarinet.

Regards,

Frank

[Frank D]

Hi EJR,

I tried posting this last night but it didn't append the thread ... hopefully this makes it!

Yes, good pit reed guys will play all over the big horn with ease and stay in-tune. It would pose absolutely no problem.

For what it's worth, (and an even more difficult proposition for the low clarinet player), replacing the extended range Bb bass clarinets in many B'way shows over the past 10-15 years is the EEb Contra alto clarinet (an even bigger beast that sounds better and has more bottom power than trying to stretch a bass clarinet down to C) and when you listen to the reed V guy warm up on the contra alto, he'll play chromatic runs from top to bottom with absolutely no problems.

For "average" and "less-than-great" bass clarinet players, I think what's more important than playing the throat tones per se, is playing across the break (between written Bb in the throat up the half step to B-natural and above), since this is a single-finger to all-fingers key closing change (plus octave key). If the passage is very fast, or goes back and forth across the break a lot, THAT could pose a problem on any clarinet.

Regards,

Frank

[ejr]

Thanks again for all the input. I was surprised to learn that the contrabass clarinet was being used in pit orchestras. Equally enlightening is the fact that most Bass Clarinet players don't have instruments that go all the way down to the low Bb, like my sample libraries do. But this exactly the kind of thing that real orchestrators don't tell you and the books don't cover. Being an actor, I tend to trust what other performers (namely, the pit musicians) tell me more.

All the books I have for contemporary and small combo arranging say the contrabass clarinet is a big, cumbersome instrument and, basically, good luck trying to find someone who can play it (let alone someone who actually has one.)Unfortunately, the only other orchestration books I have are a lot older and assume that you have a symphony orchestra at your disposal. Musical theater is something entirely different. Yes, most people think there is a "Broadway" sound - something in between Big Band and old standards - and for a lot of the old shows from the "golden age" of Broadway musicals that is true to some extent (but The Music Man still doesn't sound like Flower Drum Song or West Side Story). Each show has a character of its own. What they all share is the fact that you need to get a lot of variety from a very small ensemble of instruments (now even smaller since producers are pinching pennies and they seem to think that a synth ought to be able to substitute for a string section.)

Anyway, with only 17 instruments available for my "full" version of the score, I can only have four reeds and four brass. Unless you consider the French Horn as the fifth reed (and it does play that role sometimes). But there is really no room for a contrabass clarinet or contrabassoon. This arrangement was dictated by the character of the music, the range of the parts, and the desire to minimize doubling and switching as much as possible. (Yes, I know musicians love to double and get paid more for it, but my job is to do this with as few as possible to get smaller companies interested in it). It's an adaptation of a 19th century novella, so I didn't want to pad the strings with synth sounds and I tried to limit the electronic keyboards to patches that wouldn't sound noticably different from acoustic instruments when amplified. It breaks down like this:

Reed I: piccolo, flute

Reed II: flute, Bb clarinet, soprano sax

Reed III: Oboe, English Horn, Bb & Eb Clarinets

Reed IV: Bassoon, Bass Clarinet, Bb Clarinent

French Horn

Trumpet I

Trumpet II, Flugelhorn

Bass Trombone (optional double on Tenor Trombone)

My string section is 3 violins in unison over a cello in the big numbers and divisi on the smaller, softer numbers. My rhythm section is a string bass (acoustic), drums, percussion (timpani, tamborine, various toys) and two MIDI keyboards: one playing all the important stuff (mostly piano and harp); the other subsituting for pitched percussion and novelty instruments (xylophone, celeste, accordian, guitar).

This is my minimum for a first class production. As soon as it's finished, I start work on reduction for smaller regional theaters (8-10 musicians, tops) - where this will have to succeed first before it is ever considered for a production contract. Depending on where it is done, and their budget, it may well be re-orchestrated by a real professional orchestrator and my charts will just be the starting point. I am taking this approach because my first and only other musical was hurt by the orchestrator. I gave him a piano part only (on tape) and he reduced a lot of my intricate harmonies and counter melodies to simple guitar strumming and his own pounding chords on the piano. (I ultimately played piano in the pit for that production on the difficult numbers, just to get some of what I actually wrote back into the score - and I was never a strong player, so I'm not sure whether that helped or hurt.) The nice thing about computers is that I can edit my playing on the staff view and MIDI list views in Cakewalk, so I am not limited by my own technical abilities. I may be new to orchestration, but I am hoping that I can at least get it to the point where a number that is supposed to be a Vienese waltz actually sounds like one (with divisi strings and piano) and that the march likewise has an appropriate character (all the brass, percussion, piccolo, Eb Clarinet, etc.) I think I can point a competent orchestrator in the right direction. That's all I'm really after here. And if I've made any gross mistakes I just want the opportunity to change them first myself (I'd rather have a Bass Clarinet part that goes too low played by the bassoon than a contrabass clarinet or a bass sax or tuba or something - while the tone color is important, the overall character of the number is even more so and if something has to change I'd rather those changes be the least drastic departure from my original vision. On the other hand, if Johnathan Tunic is ever handed this score, I'd let him do whatever he wanted to with it.)

[Frank D]

Hello again EJR,

I just want to clarify that there are actually TWO low clarinets below the Bb bass clarinet: The EEb contra alto and the BBb contra bass.

The one I mentioned in my reply is the EEb contra alto and this is the one found in B'way pits (City of Angels, Will Roger's Follies, The Music Man (revival circa 1999), The Producers, et al). This clarinet size-wise and pitch-wise is in-between the Bb bass and BBb contra bass and is actually no more cumbersome than an extended-range bass clarinet (another way to think of it is that it is pitched one octave lower than the Eb alto clarinet). It can get down to the concert Gb below the low concert Db on the Bb bass clarinet.

The true BBb contra bass clarinet (pitched a full octave below the Bb bass clarinet) is the behemoth referred to in orchestration books and this is the beast that is not often used outside of concert bands.

Unfortunately, the contra alto is often referred to as a contra bass leading to all kinds of confusion. I always use the Eb or Bb prefix when I refer to clarinets to avoid any confusion.

Generally, I prefer the "pointed-ness" and power of the bass and contra alto clarinets over the bassoon, but of course if the passage is not too loud, the bassoon is gorgeous on the bottom.

I'd like to read the rest of your post and comment, but that will have to wait 'till tomorrow!

Hope this helped un-snarl the Battle of The Big Clarinets!

Frank

BTW: The orchestrations I'm working on calls for the Reed V guy to double EEb contra alto clarinet. Since there is none in the Garritan libraries, I use the CAMB BBb Contra bass clarinet and limit my bottom to the concert Gb. Close enough!

[ejr]

I am aware that there is a contralto bass as well as a contrabass, but it was my understanding that the former was even harder to come by. Also, my clarinet library (Westgate) includes a Bass Clarinet and a "Contrabass" clarinet. Since they don't call it "contralto" I assume they recorded the lower instrument. I have GPO and JABB, too. I'm not sure if they include the contralto bass clarinet. I don't know how much of a difference there is in character between it and the other instruments - or whether it is best to substitute the Bass or Contrabass clarinet for the contralto. Since the low C and Bb are only an issue in two numbers, it seemed more logical to just use the bassoon instead.

This does make the score a little bassoon heavy, but I think I can add enough variety by doubling with the cello in some cases and octave doubling with the pizz string bass in others.

I am aware of the differences in projection and the thickness of the sound between clarinets and bassoons. The books tell you to use the bass clarinets under brass - but then they are assuming that you are scoring for big bands (lots of sustained notes, bass notes part of block chords) and that is not how my music is usually structured. The chords are usally in the middle to upper parts, since most of the piece consists mostly of vocal numbers and most of the singers are male. The bass line is thinner, lower, and usually moving (either in a countermelody or playing the rhythm). The bassoon is generally better suited to this, since it has a more "pointed" sound. The main reason not to use it, according to the orchestrations books, is lack of projection and ability to blend with the brass - which is not what I am trying to do - and is not being observed in a lot of recent shows, since the pits are so small and everything is amplified anyway.

In the end, I just have to go by how it sounds. But, second to that, is ensuring that the first production is easily playable by most musicians and that the instruments required are readily available - since it is unlikely that any show will have its first production on Broadway or a venue where there can be more flexibility.

Just a few observations about Broadway - since I am in New York and see a lot of shows: I've never heard poor musicians (though I do occassionally encounter vocalists who are not up to par). The sound quality ranges anywhere from excellent to terrible. And the size of the show doesn't seem to matter. Some sound just too thinly orchestrated. Some are overdone and then mixed down to a bland mono output from the theater speakers that sounds more like a bad recording than a live pit. To avoid the latter, I am trying to make my music sound as good as possible (and as balanced) with a small number of instruments. (And soon I will be reducing it for an even smaller ensemble, so I may be asking a lot of questions about the best ways to reduce 8 wind isntruments to 4 and trying do decide whether to replace the second keyboard with a violin and cello - since I really hate the idea of a synth strings, regardless of the quality of the samples - a keyboard player just doesn't play the way a violinist does and audiences can tell.

[Frank D]

Howdy again ...

I looked over the rest of your post from a couple of days ago (the one where you list your pit chairs), and I think you have chosen a balanced and versatile instrumentation ... it would serve any orchestrator well:)

Please don't think I was 'dissin' the bassoon ... it's one of my favorite instruments and in a pit is incredibly versatile. I also agree that for the few low C's and Bb's in your score, the bassoon is definitely the way to go.

I wasn't suggesting using a contra alto clarinet in your orchestration; just wanted to point out it's acceptance in B'way pits and studio/film scoring :)

You mention availability of the Eb contra alto clarinet and IMHO it's more available than the true contra bass for a couple of reasons: 1st, cost ... a wooden one is 8-10k vs 15-20k for a wooden Bb contra bass. The other is functionality. Below the contra alto's low Gb, the sound becomes very guttural and is of very limited general use.

I'm using the Eb contra alto in my virtual pit because my score has a jazzy flavor in several numbers, and more importantly, the keys of those jazzy pieces makes the low 5ths possible all the way down to the key of C Major (whereas the Bb bass clarinet can't play low 5ths below the key of Gb and the bassoon below the key of Eb).

I think we both agree that generally speaking, you don't want to go "Mega-Low" in the reed section with a contra bassoon or a Bb contra bass clarinet or bass sax in the pit ... although it is interesting to note that the original scores for two sensational 1955 musicals both had a bass sax in their pits ... "West Side Story" and "The Music Man" ... go figure!

I agree with your post when you mention the feel of the piece is most important; bassoon vs low clarinets is a very subjective thing and the style and genre probably dictates more than any technical criteria.

Good luck with your orchestrations and I look forward to discussing reductions at some point as it looks like we will both be trying to scale down full orchestrations.

Frank

[GDG]

Howdy again ...

***
You mention availability of the Eb contra alto clarinet and IMHO it's more available than the true contra bass for a couple of reasons: 1st, cost ... a wooden one is 8-10k vs 15-20k for a wooden Bb contra bass. The other is functionality. Below the contra alto's low Gb, the sound becomes very guttural and is of very limited general use.

***

I think we both agree that generally speaking, you don't want to go "Mega-Low" in the reed section with a contra bassoon or a Bb contra bass clarinet or bass sax in the pit ... although it is interesting to note that the original scores for two sensational 1955 musicals both had a bass sax in their pits ... "West Side Story" and "The Music Man" ... go figure!

***

Frank


And if you're picking up an Eb contra just for pit doubling, there are resin instruments that completely satisfy the need at a still lower cost. Picked up mine on eBay for $700.

As for "mega-low", sometimes that is just the effect you want. What better sound for a creepy horror or mystery scene than a Bb contrabass clarinet (or contrabassoon, or sarrusophone, or tubax)? But true, not for your general-purpose musical.

And bass sax isn't even that low -- only descends to concert Ab, one step below the bassoon. I've played in a number of musicals that called for (although I never had one to play -- forced the parts onto bari), especially where the goal was to obtain a 20's or 30's jazz sound.

Enjoy,

Grant

[ejr]

So, what's the best substitute for the Contralto Clarinet? Are those low notes (from Eb down to Bb) closer to that of the Bass Clar or the Contrabass Clar? Now I'm thinking maybe I should just write for the newer Bass Clarinets that go down to the Bb - since my soft instruments cover it - and assume a live musician with substitute the Eb instrument if his Bass Clar doesn't reach that far.

[Frank D]

Hi Grant,

Is that Contrabass.com your site? I'm a huge fan and have been there many times ... fantastic job!

Yes, very good point ... there are reasonably priced used resin/plastic models available for contra alto (even new I believe the Selmer and Vito models are around 2k). What I was referring to is what I've seen in the B'way pits and based on the size of the bells, those appeared to be Selmer Paris models ... $$$$$.

As far as your comment on "mega-low" reeds, hey, I'm right there with you! ... how about somebody does a musical based on "The Great San Francisco Earthquake" and Reeds 1-5 ALL play the instruments you listed (of course it would fill half the pit with their plumbing!). I guess that's also one of the reasons I'm a Bernard Herrmann fan ... he was no stranger to amassing the contra reeds in his scores ... including the BBb CB clarinet in one of his more lyrical scores, "The Ghost and Mrs Muir". Also sounds like a CB clarinet on that final "death chord" in "Taxi Driver".

Regards,

Frank

EJR ...

I think your question of where the Eb contra alto range is closer to is a good one, but as a matter of practicality, I don't think I would go lower to the Bb contra bass clarinet.

Also, beware that even brand new (and very good) Bb bass clarinets come in both models ... standard down to written Eb, and extended range models to written C, so you can't assume the added range is going to be there without specifically calling for it in your score.

Back to your question: If you didn't score for Eb contra alto and you absolutely had to have those low notes on a clarinet, you'd have no choice but the Bb contra bass. If the notes were no lower than concert Bb, you have, as you mentioned, the bassoon and, if you specified for it, the extended range Bb bass clarinet. For the four notes from the low concert A down to Gb, (besides the obvious string contrabass), you could also try your bass trombone in a bucket or cup, and possibly double it an octave higher softly w/ bass clarinet (like an overtone) to color the brass timbre a bit towards the clarinet sound.

Regards,

Frank

[bmdaustin]

So, what's the best substitute for the Contralto Clarinet? Are those low notes (from Eb down to Bb) closer to that of the Bass Clar or the Contrabass Clar? Now I'm thinking maybe I should just write for the newer Bass Clarinets that go down to the Bb - since my soft instruments cover it - and assume a live musician with substitute the Eb instrument if his Bass Clar doesn't reach that far.

You could pick one and include an alternate part for the other. The timbres would be similar enough not to make a difference to the audience. One issue you might run into, though, is the cost of an extra double which may or may not adversely affect your budget. I'm not sure about pit orchestras, but forcing a player to transpose might constitute a double plus it opens the door for more mistakes in the performance.

[GDG]

Hi Grant,

Is that Contrabass.com your site? I'm a huge fan and have been there many times ... fantastic job!


Yep, that's mine. Glad you like it :)


Yes, very good point ... there are reasonably priced used resin/plastic models available for contra alto (even new I believe the Selmer and Vito models are around 2k). What I was referring to is what I've seen in the B'way pits and based on the size of the bells, those appeared to be Selmer Paris models ... $$$$$.


I'm guessing they can deduct them on their income taxes...

As far as your comment on "mega-low" reeds, hey, I'm right there with you! ... how about somebody does a musical based on "The Great San Francisco Earthquake" and Reeds 1-5 ALL play the instruments you listed (of course it would fill half the pit with their plumbing!). I guess that's also one of the reasons I'm a Bernard Herrmann fan ... he was no stranger to amassing the contra reeds in his scores ... including the BBb CB clarinet in one of his more lyrical scores, "The Ghost and Mrs Muir". Also sounds like a CB clarinet on that final "death chord" in "Taxi Driver".


How about "Seismic Disturbances (http://www.contrabass.com/sounds/SeismicDisturbances.mp3)", scored for contrabass flute, contrabass clarinet, contrabassoon, contrabass sarrusophone, contrabass tuba, contrabass saxophone, 5-string bass, and percussion? :D (The link points to a recording of the debut version: the 2008 edition also included Eb tubax.) And then there's Dragon's First Flight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYnzor_Kpyg) for contrabass sax quartet...

Enjoy,

Grant

[GDG]

So, what's the best substitute for the Contralto Clarinet? Are those low notes (from Eb down to Bb) closer to that of the Bass Clar or the Contrabass Clar? Now I'm thinking maybe I should just write for the newer Bass Clarinets that go down to the Bb - since my soft instruments cover it - and assume a live musician with substitute the Eb instrument if his Bass Clar doesn't reach that far.


In terms of timbre, the contralto sounds most like a big bass clarinet. However, as a practical matter your doubler is more likely to have the Eb contra than the Bb contra (if he or she doesn't have both).

You can note on the front of the book (and in the score) that Reed IV requires a "low C" bass clarinet. Again, as a practical matter, the player and/or conductor will go with whatever they have available, and notes below the range of the player's instrument will either be played on a different horn (an Eb or Bb contra, if one is available and there is a convenient place to switch horns) or most likely taken up an octave or played on bassoon. Possibly the line would be transferred to the horn or trombone, or maybe piano, if the correct octave made an audible difference to the conductor. My guess is that making an "unofficial" change like this doesn't result in another doubler fee (as it is due to not having the horn called for), but this probably depends on each theater's policy.

I'd suggest putting the descending line as a cue in the string bass part, to be played if the bass clarinet is a low Eb horn, i.e., BCl and SB playing unison as far as the BCl goes, then BCl finishing the line an octave above the SB. Might preserve the effect you're seeking.

Best of luck!

Grant