Another String thing "trick" for really softer lines

[KingIdiot]

I\'ve taken a break for few hours due to major stress my G/F inflicted on my by managing to infect my new laptop with Chernobyl sometime earlier this month. I realised it was infected a few days ago after it dropped its payload. sigh... tying to save it... but may have to just reformat and start over.

Not to mention the deadline I was supposed to meet tomorow but am not going to. I\"m just way out of my mind and wanted to fool around a bit...because it makes me happy http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

anyhow....

Some of us with strings that we find \"harsh\" might benefit from using low pass filters on top of EQ. I\'m finding a new \"love\" for the Warm version of the Sordinos in GOS. but I believe that what I like about these would translate well into say US as wel, and possibly AO, of even KH. Even tho US and AO dont have Sordino (wait.. Ao does...but US no..right.. yah..thats it http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif )
First off. EQ

I\'m doing a roll off at about 40hz with a tight Q, pumping about 4db at around 200 with a q of about 4, pulling about 9db at about 3250, with a q of around 9, and pulling around 4.1-4.2k with a Q of around 9.5 to 10. In GOS, there is a pretty nasty ring at around 4.2 that doesn\'t sound so bad at forte with all the strings playing but not so great solo with more open and expressive playing. Remember I\'m also using some reverb...and this EQ is what I\'m using for Sordino Violins, but should work for the other violins as well. (I also use less or no reverb for short bows)

Now. Low pass filters. GOS comes with one wtih settings for the min cutoff at aound 45...a little too much more than I\'d really use, but I believe it was meant for people who wanted to go \"more\", any how. I\'m finding that playing with this on top of EXP control is really helping. Especially to even out the high notes. Again like I said. When you\'re playng big passages with alot of other instruments, taking out the filter helps bring out the strings, but without other instrumetns I liek the filter in at about 70-75 percent (inbetween and around MIDI value 85-100)

with Sordinos I get a really nice soft and expressive control.

Dont do too much \"swelling\" with the filter control. jst bump it around here and there. Swelling really starts to give that \"wah\" effect while its ok in conjunction with EXP control in GOS, without something like that it probably wont sound too good. Maybe in the future a Maestro tools option to convert velocity response into GPC-7 control... hmmm sounds good to me http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif Jeff?


Anyhow. any takers on checking out how this sounds?

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Really...I am an Idiot

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>I\'m doing a roll off at about 40hz with a tight Q, pumping about 4db at around 200 with a q of about 4, pulling about 9db at about 3250, with a q of around 9, and pulling around 4.1-4.2k with a Q of around 9.5 to 10.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm . . . is this English? Maybe if I squint a bit. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Seriously, nice tip, King.

Pat

[KingIdiot]

damn engineer talk again http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I\'ve been toying with layering AO solo strings on top of it...I wish I had DD solo strings or Gary\'s were out. I have a feeling that layering DD solo strings on top with atenuation control and some EQ in the Mids would sound fantastic. AO sounds good layered, but needs a High pass...too much noise and rattle comes in since I have teh 200 hz boost. Still it sounds quite good.

I also layered in a really filtered version of the new GR Dets and it sounds quite wonderful. but I think its just \"width\" that I\'m adding so the normal sustain legatos should work fine as well. Not to mention the second violin section...and full strings http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif wheee! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

but dammit I\'m all GOS again. I meant this to be a post for all strings.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Tokyo Joe]

Now I feel like the idiot!

Are you saying to eq AND use the WARM filter with GOS Sordino? Or is it a case of either/or?

Also, what eq do you use?

Thanks in advance King.

[KingIdiot]

TJ Both EQ and Warm filter

I\'m using the basic garbage EQ in my 1680. Its actually very \"digital\" so boosting anywher in the high mids and mids sounds like caca...but thats ok..I\'m only cutting http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif


I\'ve also foudn a really cool trick with the Warm filter for Dimminuendo and Crecendos. Brin it UP when you fade CC11 out (after using MOD wheel EXP) to nothing. This helps add that \"air\" that is missing in a regular volume curve that happens with CC11

I\'m having a ball playing the Cast Away line, because Francis was talking about it, also some stuff from Fantasia. It really sounds fantastic.

Jeff is going to hate me with all the mapping I want to create with Maestro Tools http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I think I need to spend some time with MIDI OX...or better yet Logic http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I love this stuff...but man I need to get back to my scripting work...

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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 01-30-2002).]

[KingIdiot]

If you have more EQ. Pulling back a tight Q in the 400 range helps out with some harmonic ringing in reverbs, but you ave to be really gentle with it. If you dont,..then dont pump the 200 like I said aarlier. Make the much smaller so you dont pump the 400 range too much


EDIT

Something else just occursed to me. Try layering another string instrument and pan it \"near\" and EXP instrumetn to widen the stero spread of it (mix it in lower and use the Warm filter to \"hide\" it) . Make sure its velocity sensetive. Now you can make for a pretty cool realistic effect by making string players on each side of the section vary how loud they get. gives more sense of realism. Even better is to layer in a solo violin that has a completely differnt velocity curve. All playing in real time you can get a pretty awesome effect.
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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 01-31-2002).]

[KingIdiot]

I\'m going to bump tihs to the top constantly because I\'d like people to try this kind of stuff and comment and maybe try some ticks of their own.

So if you get annoyed with my double Posts Papa Chalk, I\'m sorry... I just want to keep some constructive posts/discusions liek this in peoples faces, ust like the drama threads stay up there http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Jeannot Welter]

Nasty ring at 4.2 Kh??? Sounds like a \"nasty ring\" in speakers... typical for non-linear phase designs.

[Tokyo Joe]

I really want to try this stuff out but I\'m a little confused. Forgive the ignorance but a) my engineering skills are a little lacking b) if I don\'t ask I\'ll never know and c) hopefully others will benefit as well.

That said...

I have Waves Q-10 paragraphic EQ. Which type do I use? Bell, Low shelf, high shelf etc? Also, when you say \"a tight Q\" could you give me a setting to start with? I have the following to play with: Gain, Freq, Q. How much are you \"pulling around 4.1-4.2k with a Q of around 9.5 to 10.\"?

I\'d appreciate any help and advice you have and again apologies for the dumb questions. I really should know this stuff by now http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/blush.gif



[This message has been edited by Tokyo Joe (edited 01-31-2002).]

[Jeannot Welter]

Hi Kingidiot,

Do you know how much phases distortion you are introducing with all these EQs? Do you know what these phase distortions are doing to youre impulse and step response? You are doing everything to make it sound shrill.
I would suggest to start over with EQs of absolutely no more than 3 db with a maximum Q of 1. Anything beyond that is evil if ou want to listen to natural sound. You also might want to measure the frequency, step and impulse response of your speakers from your listening position. Do not take the manufacturer\'s for granted....

[KingIdiot]

yah i know there is all kidn of phase distortion with EQs that I\'m using, but its what I like in the sound.

Of course High Qs add weirdness and ringing.
Part of the deal is that Its not the \"natural\" sound that Is what I\'m going for. Its part of a \"whole\" that I like to create with mixing and playing.

Extreme EQ tweaks is just what I like doing. In the end its all abut what soudns good to my ears.

For a fact, tho, it sounds less shrill that without EQ IMO.

I know its all hard EQs and a total \"reshape\" of sound, but its part of a whole process with Reverb and other things.

you\'re right, I\'m remodelling my studio and am going to \"set it up\" and have some eople come out and help.

Still, there are some tones that I will still find that I dont like, and will use Extreme EQ to work it out.

I personally find tight Q cut abcks to be very useful in \"placing\" my strings in a mix. i\'m just sharing an idea and want would like coments on anyone whos tried tham. Maybe we can all help each other coe up with vaiations.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Beckers]

I agree with King that some cutting in the dentist\'s drill area of 4k makes DD and Xample violins, as well as GOS, more palatable. (But \"rolling off at 40\"? At least my pet sperm whale would be pleased.)

DD violin has nice natural sounding vibrato that layers well, but it needs EQing seperately. The vibrato on Vitous\' solo vln is slightly more obtrusive. (It\'s on the cheap Mini library, which is worth the money for the stunning flute). The KH 2VLN patch has slow vibrato which is great for layering in slow passages.

[KingIdiot]

Really rolling off at 20 is something I do alot, jsut because layering lots and lots of samples tends to take away from the power/volume. 40 with violins layered is nice for placement with reverb. It taks away from mudding up the low end within the verb for me. Normally most people consider what Id be doing at 200 to mud up the sound, but it actually ads a sense of \"warmth\" to me in this situation.

nyhow, Try it..see what you think...if not he share you\'re own tweaks.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[KingIdiot]

Heres a basic comparison of the sounds and a couple others

I played this in manually
http://www.musicyouneed.com/GOS/EQandstuff.mp3 (\"http://www.musicyouneed.com/GOS/EQandstuff.mp3\")

No reverb. First up is Withot EQ jsut warm filter, next is EQ\'d next is No Eq with a mic modeler next is EQ and Mic Model.

Its all very similar sounding, but the subtleties are different and really shine when you put reverb in, and I think in a mix it makes even more diffeence.


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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 01-31-2002).]

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 01-31-2002).]

[SOD213]

King,

I\'m a PC technician by trade, a musician by... um.. calling myself one. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

1/3rd of the systems I work on are ones infected by viruses. Luckily some people notice that the system is acting flaky, and bring it in. I run a scan first thing, and then remove the virus. Some of the more destructive viruses, like Magistr and Sircam wipe the drive after having been active for 30 or so days. When that happens, I hand the drive to the boss to rebuild the fat table, and then I remove the virus and back up the customer\'s critical data to CD\'s. It\'s not a lot of fun, but I\'m happy to note that everyone I hand a CD to gives me a smile and thanks, and then buys some AV software. Now, if they keep up with definitions, and quit opening attachments like I ask, I won\'t see them back. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

You may have been lucky with your laptop, the Update Bios function (in the bios) may have been turned off by default. Now..

Keep up with definitions.

Never open attachments. Especially from people that you know. Odd? Not really, most viruses have their own Email routines which root through your address book/contact list, and email themselves, signing the infected person\'s name at the end of the message.

BACK UP YOUR DATA.

BACK UP YOUR DATA.

The last one I can\'t stress enough. Think about how much time and effort you put into the work you do on the computer. Don\'t lose it!

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[KingIdiot]

Sod,

i totally understand.

In the past 8 years I haven\'t had a problem with virii.

I dont open attachments especially executables. This was all my G/F\'s doing http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif She has one of those Netscape/Yahoo/ ISP E-mails and loves clicking on all kinds of crap. I figured she would\'t do that on mine...just check important mail.. I ant wrong. I found a few executables in the tem internet folder tht may have been the infected file tht started this debacle.

I actually did back up alot o data, but was using the computer as part of the main composing process and alot of sound editing. The data itself was already backed up (well more than most of it). I have lost a hard drive at a critical moment before .. it jsut choked ..not fun.

Whta scares me are those new VB virii that infect you if you scroll over text and stuff. tahts scary stuff!

on my main internet computer I have Virus Software, and now on the Lap I do as well.. good thing tho, I\'ve been using that to jump on here while I work in bed http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Still all you\'ve said is Good stuff, and believe me I know!! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

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Really...I am an Idiot

[SOD213]

Ohh, the trouble I could get into if I had a laptop. I can see how much work I could get done with one, being able to just plug in wherever in the house and work.

Right now my work setup is pretty fixed.. But I do enjoy the 2 19\" monitors on the dual display setup. On both of my computers. Ahhh, a wall of monitors across 2 desks. The electric company loves me when I fire up all 4. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[SOD213]

Really nothing to do with strings, just wondering if you blew away the drive. My company does data recovery, I could hook you with a good price. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[KingIdiot]

Jeannot,

Its more like a harmonic overtone that gets on my nerves if I listen to it too much solo\'d. I liked it when I first got the library, but the more I use it for soft lines, the more I like to EQ it out http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif A deesser might work well on it, tho ever tried...

I\'m monitoring off of NS-10s and 2 different pairs of SONY headphones.

It could be some sort of amplified phase artifact due to jitter response from the sync of my 1680 and my WamiRack, but I\'m not really sure it is. I\'ll try popping the digi sync off and listening to just the analog outs. Still I think it will be there.

I really dont want to focus on being a gear head again tho http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif... a sample geek yah.. no more GAS please :

Tokyo,

Low Shelf for the Roll off at 40

Bells/peaks for the rest.

I\'m pulling only a bout 2-3db. Because I\'m pulling so much at aroun 3.2k alredy. I think Simon likes to pull more http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

not dumb questions at all. Sometimes I forget taht this is a sample library forum and not a \"recording\" forum.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[KingIdiot]

SOD,

Looks like things are good. took me 3 days to completely get rid of the virus and a few different tools, but things look good. It got through Scan Disk completely fine finally not dumps at the FAT. now almost finished Defragging. I\'m goign to check applications next, but it looks good.

So lucky it didnt\' fry my Bios. Its a laptop, so I wonder if I would have had to send it back in r if I could have bought a Bios from them. Or is there some sort of \"protection\" on neeer Bios chips. I\' not that well versed in Virii land. Atleast I know a little about computers and ws able to fix it.

With out a floppy even!! Thanks to my old DOS days as a 13 year old GEEK!

BT Thanks for the offer.
There wasn\'t enough important data for me to be horribly dissapointed in losing. I was more scared to \"set up\" the laptop agan and have its performance be lacking. It was working rEALLY well with Giga, ... I hope it still does after this debacle

G/F is not getting close to any computer of mine ever again ! She\'s just entered AOL territory http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 01-31-2002).]