Another demo of PMI GRANDIOSO

[Michiel Post]

Hi again,
We’ve got another nice demo of the GRANDIOSO Steinway D library up on our demo page http://www.postaudiomedia.com/demo.html (\"http://www.postaudiomedia.com/demo.html\")

The piece is for piano & GOS from the movie “The Importance of Being Ernest”
by Chris Nicolaides, Axiamusic.
Here is the direct link: http://www.postmusicalinstruments.com/demo/EARNEST1b.mp3 (\"http://www.postmusicalinstruments.com/demo/EARNEST1b.mp3\")

He re-created one of the cues from \'The Importance of Being Ernest\', the movie that he wrote part of the score to. It stars Rupert Everret, Judy Dench, Colin Firth, Reece Witherspoon.
He actually prefers the sound of the Steinway D to the real Fazioli that was used in the score!!

I hope you like this one as well.
Michiel Post

[This message has been edited by Michiel Post (edited 01-28-2002).]

[Hardy Heern]

Michiel,

I think that your piano is truly marvellous but your strings are being played like a piano.... to my ears. They sound very synthetic and lifeless and would not persuade me to part with £600 for GOS. They need more MIDI applied dynamics IMHO. Some volume level dynamics and softened/ varied attacks would help enormously.
I know it\'s not the strings that we\'re meant to be listening to but they can\'t be ignored and detract from the piano. I\'m reminded, not for the first time, that the quality of MIDI file detail is more important than fancy, expensive sounds!

[Simon Ravn]

Michiel, very cool. The piano seems to be working very well in an orchestral setting! The tuning of your piano seems to be wrong though http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Buuuuut I\'m sure you\'ll fix that. Nice.

[Simon Ravn]

I would also like to ask Chris how you got involved in such a high-profile project? Are you just incredibly cool or incredibly lucky? Is this your first job on a motion picture? And how many composers were attached to it? And did you compose this theme? It\'s very nice!

[Damon]

Michiel, that piano sounds fantastic!!! Nice job with the piano demo Chris http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif. I don\'t like the strings though, they sound kinda synthy in the high register.
Tuning problems? Simon you must have ears like a rabbit, they sound alright to me.

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 01-26-2002).]

[ChrisAxia]

Hi guys,

Yes, sorry about the strings. I had about 3 hours to spare when a client cancelled, and thought this cue would be another good test for Michiel\'s piano. Obviously, not being a great pianist,(I seem to play the computer keyboard more than the piano keyboard these days. I\'m sure you all know that feeling!)it took a while to get a decent \'take\'.

Anyway, I wanted to use the Grand detache patches, which sound close to the real recording, but they weren\'t long enough and I didn\'t have time to really tweak the legato strings. Sorry! So Damon, Simon etc, tell me which GOS strings you think would work best in this case and I\'ll try and fix them in the next week.

To answer the question, was I lucky to be involved? Damn right I was lucky!! I met the main composer Charlie Mole about 4 years ago I think, shortly after he scored Othello for the same director. I ended up building his first PC (he was still on an Atari!). I also persuaded him to get Gigasampler when it came out! Anyway, I did a little arranging work on the following movie \'An Ideal Husband\' again starring Rupert Everett (BTW, I met him at a private screening last night. He\'s definitely living in another world!)

Then in August last year Charlie called me to ask for some help on the new film. I chose a few scenes he\'d already scored 3 or 4 times, but which the director had rejected, and came up with 2 themes which both Charlie and the director liked. They each appear 4 times with different arrangements, total time about 6 minutes. I was very happy to get that much in the movie!
So Simon, yes, I composed this theme.

I\'ve written music for a few fairly successful BBC series in the past but of course we all want to write for the big screen don\'t we, so this was a big buzz for me! I hope it\'s not the last!!!

Anyway, thanks for listening. BTW, the movie isn\'t released until May in the USA and around September in the UK, so I\'ve got a long wait for any royalties!

Regards, Chris

[This message has been edited by ChrisAxia (edited 01-26-2002).]

[Simon Ravn]

The strings sound too low to me. But the piano is tuned right it seems. Dont know how the strings got tuned too low. Listen at 0:49.

[Damon]

Hey Chris,

I really like your piano writing.
I think if you add the grand detaches on top you will get more expression (possibly the grand detaches may not be long enough in length though) and maybe add some controller expression at the beginning of the string lines so they don\'t just blurt out.
Great melody! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 01-26-2002).]

[ChrisAxia]

Hi Damon,

Yeah, I\'ll try layering the Grand Detaches on top like you suggest. Funny, I seem to remember giving you the same advice a while ago. Thanks for reminding me! What about the \'main\' string lines? Which patches work for you in this type of arrangement?

Thank you also for compliment regarding my piano writing. I can\'t play the really complicated stuff so I guess I\'ve had to become OK at the simple stuff!!

Chris

[Damon]

Hey Chris,

For main string lines, I happen to be fond of the 2nd violin susVs. I think they have a bit more expression then the 1st violins. I personally like the grand detaches above all and can\'t wait to hear if the loops come out good.
The thing I notice on the demo is that the attacks sound really abrupt to me. What strings did you use? The LEG ones or regular susVs?

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 01-26-2002).]

[ChrisAxia]

Hey Damon,

I think I used the SusV EXP LEG patches for 1st Violin, vialas and cellos. OK, I\'ll try the 2nd violins next week. Do they have more vibrato than the 1st violins?

Maybe I\'ll try the Altra Corda? It\'s a shame we don\'t have those extended Grand Detaches yet!

Chris

[Damon]

I think the 2nd violins have more expression and are a little warmer sounding then the 1st violin susVs. Could just be me though.
Yeah, I agree. I can\'t wait for the extended grand detache violins http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif
I notice I get smoother results actually not using legato mode and using the keyboard controller for expression.
Legato mode for me seems to push the notes together to quickly IMHO and slightly delay the next note unless you\'re doing fast legato lines. A smoother masking control would probably be ideal for slower strings. I don\'t know if that\'s possible or even if it makes sense.
Something to connect the SusVs smoother.
Sorry if I sound quirky, I\'ve been sleep deprived lately http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/shocked.gif



[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 01-26-2002).]

[ChrisAxia]

Thanks for all that info Damon. I\'ll try and do a better mock up over the next few days and get Michiel to replace that dodgy one!

BTW, the other theme for the film is a big romantic one. It\'s mainly strings, harp and flute, so not appropriate as another piano demo obviously, but maybe I\'ll post the original demo on my MP3 site if anyone\'s interested. I actually produced the demo about 7 years ago with strings from the Kurzweil Micropiano, and somehow I still like it! the flute was real though which really helps lift the piece to another level.

Regards,

Chris

P.S Give my best wishes to your girlfriend and the 9 cats!

[Damon]

Thanks Chris! Email me your demo, I\'d love to hear http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[ChrisAxia]

Hi again Damon,

Will do. BTW, I\'ve been playing around with the demo between posts and you know what? I think I like it with the Grand Detaches on Violins and Violas (stopping short obviously), and with legato cellos. It definitely sounds real now, and the pauses between the string chords give a really nice feel.

It shouldn\'t take long to fix, so I\'ll get Michiel to upload it tomorrow. Anyway it\'s 1.00 am here. Time for bed.

Goodnight everyone!

Chris

[Robert Kral]

Chris:

If you really want to use the Grand Detaches for long notes too, us the Up Down Alt patch, without Maestro, and use the alternate samples to stagger the notes longer, alternate and overlap between the lower set of samples and the higher ones (same pitch) Takes a lot of tweaking and work but its the only way to \"loop\" them.

[ChrisAxia]

Hi Robert,

Thanks for that. I\'ll try it sometime. Anyway, I already sent a mix to Michiel with the \'short\' Grand Detaches. I quite like it! Hopefully Michiel will upload it Monday morning. See if you guys prefer it.

Thanks again to all for your kind words, and for pointing out the crap string programming!

Chris

[john g]

Michiel, let\'s get this beauty on the market ASAP!

BTW, what verb is used in this latest mp3?

WTK Book 1 part 1: http://www.mp3.com/stations/bach_wtc_1_part1 (\"http://www.mp3.com/stations/bach_wtc_1_part1\")
part 2: http://www.mp3.com/stations/wtc2 (\"http://www.mp3.com/stations/wtc2\")

[Jake Johnson]

For Micheal Post:

Sorry to ask an elementary question, but here it goes. Given the number of velocity layers in your new piano, am I correct (or confused)in understanding that only a keyboard\\controller with the ability to recognize 16 or more velocity layers will allow one to make full use of it? (Some keyboards seem to limit you to four layers. I\'m thinking of the ZR-76 here.)

Your new piano sounds great. I just want to be sure I can get the equipment needed to make full use of it. Thanks.

[Michiel Post]

This morning we updated the demo page with a version with the great sounding Grand Detaches of Chris\' EARNEST. The Grand Detaches stop short, but I like the feel of the piece now, and the strings sound real. http://www.postmusicalinstruments.com/demo/EARNEST1b.mp3 (\"http://www.postmusicalinstruments.com/demo/EARNEST1b.mp3\")
Or via the demo page: http://www.postaudiomedia.com/demo.html (\"http://www.postaudiomedia.com/demo.html\")

It sounds much better now! Chris let me hear the original score for the movie where the piano is performed on a Fazioli. I heard it over the telephone line but even then I could hear the Fazioli was recorded with the mics inside the lid and the volume of the piano so high the mic membranes were rocking against the walls of the mic-enclosure. When such high volumes are to be recorded the distance between the strings and the mic membrane should absolutely be larger. If not, no matter how much attenuation the mic and the mixing desk offer, the membrane will produce such a high voltage that your audio equipment will suffer signal degradation caused by signal distortion. Anyway, hope you like the new demo better!

To Jake Johnson
The piano can be played with every available keyboard and sequencer. The velocity layers are an indication of how many levels the GigaEditor uses for the repoduction of the samples. In this case there are 16 seperate layers, each with their own samples, related parameters, filters, amp modulators ect to be used for the total sound.

Michiel

[Lougheed]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Here is the direct link: http://www.postmusicalinstruments.com/demo/EARNEST1A.mp3 (\"http://www.postmusicalinstruments.com/demo/EARNEST1A.mp3\")
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The above link won\'t work, since the file is actually named EARNEST1B.mp3

Lawrence

[Chadwick]

Jake,

I think you\'re getting layers and velocity splits confused.

Keyboards etc which are designed to respond/send velocity according to the midi spec will all do this over 128 increments of velocity from 0-127 (except for the old DX7, which is another story).

When memory was a problem, the older sampled pianos would just use one loudly played sample per key, and then use velocity to control synth filters and volume so that soft playing produced a soft, duller note, and hard playing revealed a loud, bright note. But it was all one sample, just being tonally manipulated to sound dynamic. It usually sucked.

What Michiel and others can now do is make more samples for each note on the keyboard, from ppp to fff. When they say there are 16 samples per key, it means that if you play a single key at velocities ranging from 0-127 you will pass through 16 actual recordings of that note being played from ppp-fff. Each of the 16 stereo samples is assigned to a range of velocities. eg, Maybe the ppp is assigned to work from 0-8 in the velocity range, and when you get to 9 the sampler switches to a new sample. Within its own velocity range each sample still varies in volume and maybe even uses filtering to add subtle dynamics.

When you talk about controller keyboards only allowing access to maybe 4 layers, I think what you\'re referring to is command of 4 different midi channels from the one keyboard. This is very different from splitting velocity ranges within a single channel.

As long as a keyboard can send midi velocity with its notes, you\'ll get the full use of Michiel\'s grand piano library.

[john g]

Again, what\'s the verb being used your latest mp3, Chris? Any hints?

J.G.

[Michiel Post]

Hi John,
As is indicated on the demo page Chris uses a Lexicon MPX1. ! not bad !
Michiel

[ChrisAxia]

Hi Guys,

Sorry not to reply sooner. I\'ve just finished a long recording session!

Anyway, as Michiel pointed out, the reverb on the piano is the Lexicon MPX1 in the standard \'Piano Hall\' setting. I think I put a little TC M-One on the strings and Vibes.

Michiel, I would love to post the real recording from the film, but as I do not own the recording, Miramax might get a little upset if they find out! I might never get another scoring job again!!

However, I\'ve played both mixes to 3 friends, and 2 of them thought that the Steinway version was the real one! In fact, I have difficulty listening to the real recording, because the piano sounds harsh by comparison.

I think we have finally got to the point in Piano sampling history where 99% of people will not be able to tell the difference. Thank you Michiel for your great efforts, and thank you for allowing me to beta test your fantastic piano.

Best Wishes,

Chris

[Jake Johnson]

Thanks for your responses. I understood what velocity was, but was (am?) confused by language in the ZR-76 manual about velocity settings. Would it make sense that the keyboard responds to four set velocity curves for internal sounds but can register other velocity settings when used through midi to play external sounds such as the new Post piano?

Sorry, again, to seem\\be so ignorant.

I\'ve found the learning curve for the complex combination of sampling, Gigasampler, and tweaking piano samples steep. I\'ve gathered bits of information here and there, but there is much I still need to learn. (Only in the past few weeks have I learned how to use ADSR and low pass filters to create better piano sounds.) Does anyone know of a site\\book devoted to this subject of how to how to obtain the best piano sounds from samples? To many of the posters at this site, the various filters, envelopes, EQ settings, and modulators are old acquantances, but those of us who lack experience need assistance. Most of the information I\'ve seen deals with controlling all sound, and how to apply this information to creating a good piano sound is not always self-evident. (For me, at least...)

Thanks again.

[Michiel Post]

Hi Jake,
You make a good point about the learning curve using samples. This will always remain a point of interest. I don\'t know of a good book dealing with piano/sampling/etc. There is a big need for that kind of work. That said, I believe more articulations files can help make a product that has a fixed character out of the box become more usable for more users. Here users experience plays a major part. When feedback comes back to the developers of a library they can come with new patches and bug-fixes. There are good examples of such libraries (Kip\'s piano, Gary\'s Strings or Nick\'s VOTA just to name a few). With this library I plan to have updates (in the form of articulation files available in the near future) and have a major upgrade in half a year or so when relevant new feature become available.
In the mean time, you\'re expected to experiment to find ways to accomodate a library to your own personal taste and musical style. I suggest you open the piano files in the giga editor and get familiar with the parameters (filter, velocity boundaries, verlocity response etc). Any ideas and questions that you come up with are welcomed as they can help me to make updates. You may want to check Warren trachtmann\'s website http://www.wstco.com/gigaissues/ (\"http://www.wstco.com/gigaissues/\") he has some downloadable updates for the Gigapiano.
Michiel

[Michiel Post]

The link to the updates for Gigapiano is: http://www.trachtman.org/pianosounds/updates/index.htm (\"http://www.trachtman.org/pianosounds/updates/index.htm\")

Hope this helps.