Bardstown Bosendorfer Imperial

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Hi everybody,

I have been working with the Bardstown Bosendorfer Imperial on a pop project this week, and I wanted to congratulate Kip on a job well done.

I see Pete Leoni beat me to the punch on describing the instrument, but I\'ll certainly concur on all of his points about it. This is probably the brightest Giga-piano I\'ve heard, all in all, with nice woody body backing it up.

People who have been looking for a \"sparkling\" piano which will ride atop a full mix will find it here. I would describe this as the classic glassy studio-piano sound, and recommend it for anyone who has had issues getting Giga-pianos to sit properly in mixes. It is closely and cleanly mic\'ed, and doesn\'t apologize for it!

One thing I have found is that collapsing the stereo image just a bit will make this piano recede into a specific location. I found that to be a handy variation on the point-blank perspective. If you want it glossy, in your face, and all over the soundstage, leave it as is and crank it up. It works very well either way, just depends on the material you\'re doing. Sometimes narrower is better.

It has the highly desirable characteristic of transparency in the mix, almost iced, but not tinny. This is a sound that is sought after, and not that easy to get. For a lot of material, this may be a better choice than having a real piano in your studio. Matter of fact, unless you have a Bos and a set of nice mics, you won\'t get this particular sound.

I think this is a great addition to the overall selection of Giga pianos. I will always try this one first on pop tunes, that\'s for sure. I think it will also be a good choice for \"heroic\" piano over orchestra (pan it very close to mono) and for certain soundtrack work. I don\'t think it is as strong a choice for piano/pianissimo, solo chamber music, klangfarbenmelodie, new age, etc., as some other choices on the market. But no one piano library can possibly be \"the\" piano. It just doesn\'t work that way.

One thing for sure, until now I have always had to work very hard to get Giga pianos to sound right in a pop mix, and this piano sits in exactly the right place. That\'s a big accomplishment.

[Sam]

I like Kip\'s demos, and I love the tone of Boesies (and probably everyone knows that I think the EW Bos is great with a bit of editing).

I wanted to hear how Kip\'s demo compared to my own piano, so I grabbed the Chopin Fantasie midi from classicalarchives.com and used it to drive my own favorite piano patch on the EW bos. There was no question that the EW Bos yeilded a nicer sounding rendering (try it yourself if you have my articulation file). A lot of this was due to sonic flaws in the demo, both in the transients (clipped in the mix probably, also probably some mp3 damage), and also some of the mid highs sounded hyped in a bad way, I\'m not clear what the source of this is, could be mp3 damage, or it sounds like a mic that got hit too hard.

Kip, you would do well by me by laying down a prettier demo of this Chopin piece without any flaws. I know the LAME (sic, that\'s the name...) encoder doesn\'t introduce data compression damage to piano files at these high rates, it is surely worth an audition since it\'s free.

I want to hear this piano demo Chopin better than my own. I suspect with the instrument, signal chain, and philosophy behind it, it ought to, and I also suspect Kip has the skill to pull it off. So show me, give me a demo that shows me how good your ears are, Kip!

Also, I know I listen for something different in a reverb than most people, but I thought the dry demo was better than the Altiverb one. I have a few Lexicon tunings I like better than that Altiverb sound here. I\'m glad the demos are mostly dry, it shows them off very well. I\'ve got a few great reverbs here, nice to hear how the sample could be presented in my environment (and I don\'t like the sound of reverbed reverb...)

Thanks all, best regards,
-sam

[Bardstown Audio]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
Hi everybody,

I have been working with the Bardstown Bosendorfer Imperial on a pop project this week, and I wanted to congratulate Kip on a job well done.

I see Pete Leoni beat me to the punch on describing the instrument, but I\'ll certainly concur on all of his points about it. This is probably the brightest Giga-piano I\'ve heard, all in all, with nice woody body backing it up.

People who have been looking for a \"sparkling\" piano which will ride atop a full mix will find it here. I would describe this as the classic glassy studio-piano sound, and recommend it for anyone who has had issues getting Giga-pianos to sit properly in mixes. It is closely and cleanly mic\'ed, and doesn\'t apologize for it!

One thing I have found is that collapsing the stereo image just a bit will make this piano recede into a specific location. I found that to be a handy variation on the point-blank perspective. If you want it glossy, in your face, and all over the soundstage, leave it as is and crank it up. It works very well either way, just depends on the material you\'re doing. Sometimes narrower is better.

It has the highly desirable characteristic of transparency in the mix, almost iced, but not tinny. This is a sound that is sought after, and not that easy to get. For a lot of material, this may be a better choice than having a real piano in your studio. Matter of fact, unless you have a Bos and a set of nice mics, you won\'t get this particular sound.

I think this is a great addition to the overall selection of Giga pianos. I will always try this one first on pop tunes, that\'s for sure. I think it will also be a good choice for \"heroic\" piano over orchestra (pan it very close to mono) and for certain soundtrack work. I don\'t think it is as strong a choice for piano/pianissimo, solo chamber music, klangfarbenmelodie, new age, etc., as some other choices on the market. But no one piano library can possibly be \"the\" piano. It just doesn\'t work that way.

One thing for sure, until now I have always had to work very hard to get Giga pianos to sound right in a pop mix, and this piano sits in exactly the right place. That\'s a big accomplishment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello Bruce,

I am very much honored by your extremely wonderful compliments!

Many thanks!

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[john g]

I have to agree with Sam. I\'ve been listening to the mp3 demos over and over, and I hear distortion in the louder treble components. I know KIP says (in a previous post) that the distortion\'s not there. But my ears tell me something different. LAME is the way to go. No question.

J.G.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by john g:
I have to agree with Sam. I\'ve been listening to the mp3 demos over and over, and I hear distortion in the louder treble components. I know KIP says (in a previous post) that the distortion\'s not there. But my ears tell me something different. LAME is the way to go. No question.

J.G.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi John,

There\'s no distortion in the instrument, I can vouch for that. It\'s very bright, though, and that\'s exactly the frequency range that bones MP3 encoders.

Best regards,
Bruce

[dandean]

I just returned late last night from NAMM, where Kip\'s Bosendorfer was being praised heavily by NUMEROUS top people from the top companies. This distortion rumor was brought up at the show. I discussed this with a few top folks there, who all agreed it is absolute fiction. I have a copy of this piano. There is no distortion. People in the know who are in positions to promote this piano also agree that there is no distorion. They love it. I and others do not understand what the issue is about this piano. It sounds great. The best one I\'ve heard. Period.

[Bardstown Audio]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dandean:
I just returned late last night from NAMM, where Kip\'s Bosendorfer was being praised heavily by NUMEROUS top people from the top companies. This distortion rumor was brought up at the show. I discussed this with a few top folks there, who all agreed it is absolute fiction. I have a copy of this piano. There is no distortion. People in the know who are in positions to promote this piano also agree that there is no distorion. They love it. I and others do not understand what the issue is about this piano. It sounds great. The best one I\'ve heard. Period. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hello Dan,

Thank you very much for \"nipping this thing in the bud\" and setting the record straight with the honest truthful facts.

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[Bardstown Audio]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
Hi John,

There\'s no distortion in the instrument, I can vouch for that. It\'s very bright, though, and that\'s exactly the frequency range that bones MP3 encoders.

Best regards,
Bruce

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello Bruce,

Thank you very much for \"nipping this thing in the bud\" and setting the record straight with the honest truthful facts.

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[Jake Johnson]

I don\'t know about the distortion issue, but the MPGs sound nothing like a Bors.

These pianos have a much more subtle, unmetalic timbre than the MPGs capture. The problem with the sample seems to be close miking. This issue has come up again and again on this board. If you put mics close to the strings, you record only the vibration of the strings.

[Sam]

> People in the know who are in positions to promote this piano

Yeah yeah, people \"in the know\" who have been given this piano sample are doing a bang up promotional job here. Those of us not in the know who have to buy our samples have noted that the tone in the demo is not necessarily consistently better than what we\'ve got. I don\'t trust the opinions of others to tell me if I\'m going to like the tone of a sample set, so until people start giving me samples, I\'ve got to rely on my ears.

Kip, it\'s great to commend the fine taste of people you\'ve given this to, but paying customers will probably respond more favorably to better sonics in the demos that sell your products. Since I haven\'t seen anyone contend that there are engineering problems with this product it\'s goofy to assume a defensive posture. Potential customers just want to be able to judge the tone, this should seem very reasonable. If you\'re going to make available high bit rate mp3\'s, there\'s no excuse for flawed sonics.

And as for trusting the opinions of the experts \"in the know\", I can\'t forget that Bruce wrote a review rating the gigapiano (the worst one in my library) higher than the east-west pianos. To me gigapiano has conspicuous engineering problems that make it quite annoying, whereas the EW pianos had solid material that could clearly be improved by a good user (ie \"not in the know\") Some of his reviews are spot on and I\'m sure he has good reasons for his opinions, but he doesn\'t hear what I hear. So his opinion is just like anyone elses here, except he gets his samples for free and his income is derived from selling ads to people selling music products...

rant off!
-sam

[Sam]

> exactly the frequency range that bones MP3 encoders

Most MP3 encoders are not so good IMO, but few people will be able to pick the original from the mp3 with a LAME encoding at 256K or above. The things I don\'t like in the demos would not be artifacts of a high bit rate LAME encoding. I suspect I could quite like Kips sample, IMO it has good basic tone and captures what I would expect from this fine instrument with great mics, but of course I\'m troubled that I can beat the sound of the demo at home with very little effort. I have too many piano samples already that have just a few things wrong that bugger me and break the spell; since I\'ve got a fine piano, such nits will tend to make the instrument not so useful to me.

Anyone with good enough ears to make a superior sample (quite a rare thing IMO) should be able to make a corresponding quality mix, and LAME will give you a fine representation of your sound, no excuses needed.

To me, these demos say \"quite promising\" rather than \"totally convincing\", I think they can and should be better. Anyway, that\'s what it\'s going to take to get me over the line.

cheers,
-sam

links: http://home.pi.be/~mk442837/ (\"http://home.pi.be/~mk442837/\") http://www.dors.de/razorlame/ (\"http://www.dors.de/razorlame/\")

[Bardstown Audio]

Sam,

It is quiet obvious that you and your buddies have an agenda, for whatever reason. It is also quiet obvious from other postings you have made, not only on this thread but on other threads as well, that you and your buddies have an organized network. It seems strange that you and your buddies will not identify yourselves as to who you are, or who you work for, even though anybody can say they are a PhD professor, big time music producer, doctor, lawyer, or whatever, on the internet. Furthermore, none of you provide an email address on your profile, nor have any of you ever emailed me directly, knowing full well that having your email address, I would be able to find out who you are.

It is also quiet obvious that none of you are professionals. Real professional music producers and musicians do not have idle time, such as you guys do, in order to lurk internet user group forums and new groups, with the intention of making false statements about products with the purpose of undermining. Also, real professionals do not insult other professionals, such as you have done on this thread by making stabs at Dan Dean and Bruce Richardson.

Real professionals who frequent these forums and news groups can very easily detect your malicious agenda.

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[Sam]

Bzzzt. Guess again!

[KingIdiot]

Kip,

Just a comment from teh sidelines. I know no one asked but...

I\'ve listened to your demos from when I first started coming to this forum. I actually think your instruments sound quite good, but I think the demos are distortiing. It sounds more like in the actual Wave capture or recording. It clips at the louder volumes. I dont think its the fault of an MP3 encoder.

Could there be a bad audio cable in teh recording runs from Giga? Is giga mazxed out? It honestly sounds like clipping is going on.

This is something I\'ve noticed in pretty much all the demos but never posted just because there were no commetns and I didn\'t think there was a need to. Maybe because I knew they were after the fact of the samples and something I was taking for granted.

Againg I dont think these are part of the samples, jsut the recording of the demos. Maybe some limiting? It reminds me of when I used to push Dats to Digital Zero, faitn clips showed up in sparse arrangements, but thick ones hid the clips.

Maybe its not my place to talk, but I thought I\'d share my observation.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[sjduck]

Hi all
As a newcomer to this forum, my opinion probably doesn\'t count for much, but I\'d like to express the following all the same ...

As a music graduate, grade 8 pianist (big deal huh http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/blush.gif) ) and gigging musician, I can honestly say that Kip\'s Gigasample is the best I have heard to date.

The velocity and tuning problems inherent in the East West Gigasamples are not present here. In addition, the micing of this instrument sounds perfect to me (although this is purely subjective). I personally prefer a direct close miced sound and dislike noise of any kind.

I think the demos on Kip\'s site do not do his piano sample justice. In particular, the velocities of his midi files sound too high to me, which gives the demos a slightly over-played tinny sound. In the flesh, this is not the case. In fact I have found the piano to be particularly suitable to softer, more gentle work.

I have no association with Kip, other than paying him about 200 dollars a fortnight ago to buy my CD. Since then, Kip has called me from the States to check that I was happy and to talk me through changing the velocity settings on GigaStudio (a request that was ignored on this list, incidentally).

Quality sample, quality service from a quality developer!

Steve.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sam:
> People in the know who are in positions to promote this piano

And as for trusting the opinions of the experts \"in the know\", I can\'t forget that Bruce wrote a review rating the gigapiano (the worst one in my library) higher than the east-west pianos. To me gigapiano has conspicuous engineering problems that make it quite annoying, whereas the EW pianos had solid material that could clearly be improved by a good user (ie \"not in the know\") Some of his reviews are spot on and I\'m sure he has good reasons for his opinions, but he doesn\'t hear what I hear. So his opinion is just like anyone elses here, except he gets his samples for free and his income is derived from selling ads to people selling music products...

rant off!
-sam<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sam, don\'t make assumptions about my income. It is actually derived almost 100% from composing and producing music, and the resulting licensing and royalty income from that which I have already produced. The rest is for consulting and design work. As if that\'s anyone\'s business, but you make a very strong accusation here. For sure, I do not recieve any money whatsoever from music advertising. I don\'t own ProRec, and even if I did, advertising is only a very minor part of our income stream. I don\'t think we\'ve ever sold a single ad to a sample developer. As a matter of fact, we turned down a lucrative partnership with a very large retailer because we didn\'t want to compromise our editorial position. We certainly would like to have had the money, that\'s for sure. We have other products and services, some of which are entirely unrelated to the website itself.

Furthermore, I did not \"rate\" GigaPiano higher than anything. That is simply false...I very consciously have avoided \"rating\" things because I don\'t think it\'s helpful for the very reasons you state. I pointed out good uses for each piano, and I did comment that the GigaPiano was my favorite to sit and play at the time--because it was the only piano with release samples and I felt that was a critical thing to put into any Giga-format piano. There were only three pianos available for giga at the time I wrote that review (it was brand new), and the GigaPiano was the only one designed to show off that feature.

And believe it or not, I run into musical situations often where the GigaPiano works best. I use it in mono more than stereo, but still, I think it is a tool which has its purpose. I am the first to disagree with Larry\'s engineering approach to that instrument (I hate 4033s on just about anything), but I\'ll also concede that Larry has a Grammy for engineering, and I do not. Clearly what he did works for some purposes, and as is ALWAYS the case with a piano, every production requires a different sound. Pianos play different musical roles, no single sound is ever right for all.

I also pointed out at the time of the review you\'re quoting (three years ago) that the East West Bosendorfer was probably the best piano released--at the time--for pop productions, because it had a more characteristic tone for the genre. It played the role better than the other two. Fast forward to today, and Kip\'s Bosendorfer is far superior to the EW Bos for that type of production, since he has finally made an un-apologetic, close mic\'ed instrument for people who need one. It plays that role extremely well.

If I think someone has done good work, then I try to commend them for it, and to point out good uses for their product. I think I have done so, consistently. In this specific case, I pointed out uses for this piano which I feel are strong ones, and uses for which it is less ideally suited. I don\'t know how to be any more fair or balanced than that. To me, it\'s all about suitability for a task--I\'m not interested in discussing matters of taste. My tastes change daily.

It has no distortion whatsoever, and that is a point I\'ll consider myself very well qualified to make--and one in which opinion and taste should not be an issue.

Best regards,
Bruce

[dandean]

Since I have actually played the BBI piano and found no distortion in it, I was attempting to be helpful to users of this forum by informing them that there were no anomalies that I could detect in it. You only have .mp3\'s to evaluate this piano, I have the actual piano. Usually when I post something, its news about a new product, upgrade or \"pre-release\" info not obtainable anywhere else (except my website).

One of the crucial problems with newsgroups and forums of this nature is that anyone can post anything under the cloak of anonymity. Credibility of the author is not at issue. Rumors and innuendo can be more important than actual fact. All sorts of things go on. It is easy to say something negative or inflammatory to someone through a computer that you would never say to their face. It is easy to say damaging things about a product, to artificially over-hype a product, or to introduce doubt about a product without taking any responsibility for the action. Is it a valid opinion you\'re hearing? Is it a \"politically\" motivated opinion driven by ulterior motive? Who knows. I\'m sure I\'m not the only one who has thought about this. It is a problem. I would urge the hosts of all forums to require more detailed info about users who post on their forums, and make this information public in each posting.

You may have noticed that for a period of time I was absent from this forum. It was this basic feeling that initiated that departure. I was about to make some samples of my new brass available to some users of this forum, as a \"pre-release\" peek at what I\'m working on at present, but whay start another argument?

As the great Gene Autry sang...\"Happy Trails to You...\"

Dan Dean
Dan Dean Productions

[Bardstown Audio]

Hello John G and Jake Johnson,

Could you gentlemen either call me on the telephone or send me an email. I would very much enjoy having a polite conversation with both of you.

Both my email address and toll-free telephone number are on my web site.

Kind regards,

Kip
Bardstown Audio www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[sgarsson]

Hello,

FWIW may I recommend posting the Bos piano in the piano demo shoot out at www.purgatorycreek.com (\"http://www.purgatorycreek.com\")

I have found this site extremely useful in getting a side-by-side comparison of the pianos. Granted, it does not help with how the piano it sits in a mix, it is still extremely useful.

Scott

[Bardstown Audio]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bardstown Audio:
Hello John G and Jake Johnson,

Could you gentlemen either call me on the telephone or send me an email. I would very much enjoy having a polite conversation with both of you.

Both my email address and toll-free telephone number are on my web site.

Kind regards,

Kip
Bardstown Audio www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello Sam,

You can call or email me as well, in order to have a polite conversation. My toll free telephone number and email address are on my web site.

Kind regards,

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[sjduck]

Hi all

Before I heard of GigaSampler (3 or so months ago) I was considering spending around $4000 on a new Yamaha digital piano. You can imagine my surprise when I discovered that I could dramatically improve the quality of my piano sound for about a tenth of that with GigaSampler.

I\'m all for in depth discussion, but for pity\'s sake - these samples are all less than $200. Is it really worth being this cautious about such relatively small purchases? We all know that talking about music is a) very enjoyable, but b) ultimately a complete waste of time since every musician\'s ear is different. Music cannot be adequately described through words. Period.

The *only* way any of us are going to find out if a sample is any good is to *buy* it. So live life dangerously - get the credit card out - life\'s far too short.

Steve

PS Anyone know when Michiel\'s sample is coming out?

[Sam]

I just spoke with Kip on the phone, since this thing seemed to go not at all as I would have preferred. He doesn\'t hate me and he got an earful about what I think and like. He seems like nice guy who knows his stuff, too bad we started on the wrong foot but that\'s bygones.

Sorry to anybody whose nose I bent, I respect and enjoy the written and musical contributions of most of the folks here, but I still don\'t trust anybody\'s opinion, even if you\'re great at what you do.

peace,
-sam

[Bardstown Audio]

Hello Sam,

Thank you for your kind words. The feeling is mutual. :-)

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[Deep White]

Hey guys,

I\'m not one of Sam\'s buddies - nor himself - and I\'m not sure if I have put my name and stuff in my user info, but you can find me if you want and talk to me directly with my personal e-mail address. I\'m a user of Soundscape Mixtreme and Garritan\'s Orchestral String samples so you can find me if you want to sue me or something.

I hate the way Sam talks - Sam, you should NEVER imply that people say good things about something because they got their incomes from where or things like that; such remarks have nothing to do with \"sample discussion\" and mean nothing but intended insult - yet I do agree with him in one thing: I heard distortion in the MP3 demo. In FF notes, both treble and bass part. I have played a lot of other sample demos right after that, but none of them sounded clipped.

So Kip, if you would, can you put a short demo in wave format on your website? cause I\'m really interested with your sample. I got GigaPiano (never use it), EW Steinway and Malmsjo Acoustic Grand, but I still like to add something more to my collection.

Best Regards,

Arys Chien
Composer & Musician
Deep White Studio
Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C.

[This message has been edited by Deep White (edited 01-21-2002).]

[Deep White]

Hi Dan,

This is off-topic, but since you\'re here....

I\'ve purchased your solo string samples. Pretty cool. 3 files, and that\'s all. Neat.

They sound very rich and thick. They don\'t thin out in the mix. But sometimes they\'re just not usable, because there are no short bow samples.

I know we can add the staccato samples under long bow ones to make up for the attack, but sometimes this is still not enough. And that is when I go to Miroslav\'s solo instruments, since it contains detache samples - and sometimes more than 1 detache. Yet on the other hand, it sounds thinner than yours....

Are you planning on adding short bow samples to the library?

Best Regards,

Arys Chien
Composer & Musician
Deep White Studio
Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C.

[Bardstown Audio]

Hello Deep White,

I will put up a short 16 bit 44.1 CD audio quality \"wave\" file demo on my web site. I am in the process of switching internet severs, so once this is accomplished in the next week or so, I will put up a short wave file demo.

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[john g]

Well, who I am is no secret here, I think. I respect BOTH Bruce and Sam\'s take on samples, actually. Both these guys are incredibly knowledgeable. (Of course, I don\'t necessarily agree with them!)

Sam\'s beef, if I understand him correctly, is with the MP3 files, not the sample itself. At root, Sam\'s saying that there SEEMS to be something akin to clipping in the sound of the mp3s. That was my impression, as well. Unfortunately, drawing inferences about the ACTUAL sample from an mp3 file, and from someone else\'s midi files, are difficult without the sample in front of you. So the buyer has only the mp3 to go by. That\'s why the mp3s are, shall we say, such a sensitive issue for prospective purchasers. They\'re all we\'ve got.

Having said that, I\'ve been listening to the new BOS mp3s over and over, and comparing them with similar or the same material played on other samples (also via mp3). I still detect \"tinnyness\" in the BOS sample--the mp3 version of it, that is! Clipping? That\'s not a HUGE issue with me.

Let me rush to say, however, that tinnyness may or may not be a bad thing. It may be a velocity issue, plain and simple. (Any sample can be made to sound tinny, with the right (or wrong) midi file.) It may be the mp3 file, alone, (although I don\'t think so). Or, it may be inherent in the sample itself.

Now even were it the SAMPLE itself that wouldn\'t necessarily kill the sample for me. The Steinway B--my favourite sample--most of the time, is ALSO tinny. Real tinny. BUT it\'s still my fav. sample.

Why? Because in the case of the Steinway, filtering kills the tinnyness of the sample very nicely, without killing the sample itself, at least above middle C. BELOW middle c the problem can\'t be fixed by filtering. SO the Steinway ends up sounding \"nasal\" from mid c to C below mid C, and even a bit lower. That\'s the downfall of that sample, and that I suppose is my main concern with the new BOS sample.

In any case, the new BOS I think I like better than the EW BOS, notwithstanding everything said above. But, of course, I can\'t be sure of that, since like most of us, I don\'t have the sample itself. I gotta go by the mp3s.

Bruce\'s comments on the sample were, I thought, very carefully worded. He made it pretty clear that in his opinion THIS sample is the kind of sample that works, and works beautifully, in a mix. My own application is strictly solo material; so there\'s the rub. Different strokes for different folks.

A lot might be settled about the guts of this sample were Kip to provide, at his site, a sample of Jazz or Classical, played

a) in the pp to mp range;
b) with plenty of notes that sound, ALONE, not in combination with other notes, not in chords, and sound for for 1-2 seconds;
c) in the critical range of one octave above and below mid C.

Bach\'s C major prelude, and his fugues, fit most of these criteria, and they\'re dead simple to do. Likewise, I\'m sure a simple version of \"Summertime\" would fit the bill in the Jazz category.

Any kind of fast and loud music is not revealing of a sample for my purposes.

J.G.

p.s. At my mp3 site (from which BTW I make under the new rules very little money) are many examples of good mp3s, and they\'re only 128ers! Some of these are the kind of sound I like--mostly those mixed recently, like Fugue 1, 2, 4 and 7. Some of them are crap, too (I won\'t say which).

Bach, Well-tempered Book 1 part 1: http://www.mp3.com/stations/bach_wtc_1_part1 (\"http://www.mp3.com/stations/bach_wtc_1_part1\")
part 2: http://www.mp3.com/stations/wtc2 (\"http://www.mp3.com/stations/wtc2\")

A little edit here. I just listened to my own Fugue 2 (Bach). Now I don\'t like it so much. I\'m putting up a new version! Fugue 7 still sounds OK though. Ain\'t that the way it is with samples and mp3 files. One day you love\'m. The next you\'re shaking your head in disbelief.



[This message has been edited by john g (edited 01-21-2002).]

[JoE]

A few days ago I received the Boesendorfer Imperial and I\'ve given this library some thorough testing. My first (and second) impression is that this is a truely brilliant grand piano. Very very well playable, with lots of character and body. It is true that this Boesendorfer has a bright sound, so it\'s quite \'present\' in a mix. Unlike other grands, this instrument is very usable even at PP velocity and it has pretty much replaced the Steinway B as my favorite grand. - Besides the MAG which, of course, is a category of its own and IMHO shouldn\'t be compared to BBI or the Steinway.
About the \'distortion\' issue debated on above. - I also noticed that at FF and with pedal down, some notes have a brighter attack sound than other, neighboring notes. I am not sure what the cause is, but I\'ve talked to Kip about it and he immediately agreed to provide articulations with more uniform attacks. I have the fullest confidence that there will be no reason to complain.
Bottom line is: I can really recommend this Boesendorfer (also in its present form).

By the way, this comment shouldn\'t be mistaken as advertisement. I paid for the library like everyone else but I felt some more user feedback might be a good thing in this thread.

[Michiel Post]

I recieved Kip\'s new Bosendorfer Imperial today and couldn\'t wait to load it and try it out. As a piano library producer I was very critical when listening to the overall sound and quality of the instrument. I was very glad to find Kip recorded an impressive sounding Bosendorfer that can serve in many kinds of music. The quality of the recording is outstanding, the signal is bright and clean and very powerful. Bravo!
There are some minor areas of concern that I\'ve discussed with Kip in private e-mail and which he will solve. The most powerful aspect of the library for me personally is the way Kip recorded the release triggered soundboard resonance. This was never before so real. After each key is released you get the actual sound you would expect to hear with very high level of realisme. Truelly amazing job!
As I have stated before I feel there is room for many different piano sample sets, side by side, coexisting in peace. There is no better and best in samples. As all people have individual tastes, some people will like a piano sample more that others. In my view, the Bosendorfer was never before captured in Gigasampler format in this amazing detail and with so such power as Kip just did and that is a great achievement.
Michiel Post

[Bardstown Audio]

Hello Michiel and JoE,

I extend my thanks to both of you gentlemen for your compliments.

Kind regards,
Kip

[Bardstown Audio]

Posted below are descriptions of various articulation file downloads, which will be available for the Bosendorfer as free downloads from our web site in the next couple of weeks.

The first text below is in English, followed by a German translated text of the same for our German speaking friends. A friend of mine was kind enough to translate this for me into German.

Thanks,

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")


I am going to have several different articulation file downloads from my web
site in the next couple of weeks, in order to address various different things with
the \"Bosendorfer Imperial\" Concert Grand Piano, in order to accommodate
different people who have different preferences, as to what they want in a piano.
Bear in mind that some of these downloads will not necessarily make for a better
sounding or playable piano to everybody, but these articulation downloads from
my web site will accommodate different people in different ways, who have
different feelings as to what they personally like in a piano, based on their personal
playing techniques and styles of music that they play. Therefore, these free
articulation file downloads from my web site will be a \"pick and choose\"
type of selection in order to accommodate individual preferences of this
Bosendorfer. For example, some people such as myself, prefer a sampled
piano with the velocity levels set at a higher level, thus permitting for
more forceful playing on a keyboard controller in order to trigger the
louder velocity layers. I will have a different velocity layer setting
articulation file download, for people such as myself, who prefer these
types of velocity settings. Also, some people like some filtering on the
various layers, in order to make for a smoother sounding piano. Personally,
I do not like filtering because in my opinion it takes away from the life
and character of the samples to a certain extent, even though it may be
minimal. Many people have been accustomed over the years to having smoother
sounding sampled pianos, and that is what they are accustomed to hearing
on sampled pianos over the past several years, because that has very much
been the norm in producing sampled pianos over the past several years.

Bear in mind, that a smoother sounding sampled piano is not necessarily a
better sounding piano. In my opinion, sampled pianos over the past several
years have generally sounded too smooth, which has always been a shortcoming
to my ears in order to achieve true realism from a sampled piano. In my
humble opinion, the un-processed and un-filtered samples have more realism
and definition, sound better, and set better in a mix with other instruments, though
others will differ with my personal thoughts on this. This is why I will
also have an articulation file download with some filtering processes to
address this issue as well, for people who prefer this type of filtering
process on a sampled piano.

There are a few certain notes on this piano which appear to be slightly
brighter than some of the other notes. This is due to the felt on various
hammers, which is the true character of this piano. I will also have an
articulation download in order to slightly soften these various individual notes
as well. Bear in mind that on a real piano, you do hear slight variations from
note to note, but people seem to be more aware of these individual character
variations on a sampled piano, than they are on a real piano. Also, bear in
mind that there are many people who prefer leaving these certain slightly
brighter notes just as they are, considering the fact that these certain notes do
depict the character of this Bosendorfer Imperial that was sample recorded,
and that these notes are not at all offensive. However, as I previously
mentioned, I will also have another articulation file download in order to
accommodate people would like to have these certain notes with slightly
softer attacks.

Several people have commented that this is the first sampled piano that they
did not have to apply any EQ processing, in order to bring it out into a
mix. These people are also saying that this piano sounds better in a mix
than any other sampled piano, for both classical and jazz solo, and group
performances. For solo and group piano performing and recordings, I personally
prefer the sound of this sampled Bosendorfer Imperial as it is, being totally
unprocessed, though in some situations a quality reverb performance hall
emulation is a very nice enhancement to this piano, which does soften the
overall sound of this sampled Bosendorfer Imperial piano, and thus gives the
effect of hearing this piano at a distance in a \"world class\" performance hall.
You may hear this comparison by listening to the two different \"Scherzo\" MP3
demos on my web site. One of the Scherzo\'s is totally unprocessed, while the
other one is processed with Altiverb performance hall emulation. Both of these
MP3 demos are of the same original audio recording source.

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")


Innerhalb der naechsten Wochen werde ich auf meiner website mehrere verschiedene
articulation files fuer den \"Boesendorfer Imperial\" Konzertfluegel zum kostenlosen
download bereitstellen, um den unterschiedlichen Wuenschen nach speziellen Eigenschaften
eines Fluegels gerecht zu werden. Bitte beachten Sie, dass nicht notwendig jede dieser
articulations fuer jeden Benutzer geeignet ist, um den Klang oder die Spielbarkeit
nach dem Geschmack des speziellen Benutzers positiv zu veraendern.
Vielmehr wird verschiedenen Benutzern mit unterschiedlichen persoenlichen Praeferenzen,
Spielweisen und musikalischen Stilrichtungen auf unteschiedliche Weise Rechnung getragen
werden. Daher sollen die downloads auf meiner website als Moeglichkeit zur Auswahl dienen.
So bevorzugen einige Benutzer, wie auch ich, ein gesampletes Piano mit etwas hoeher gesetzter
Anschlagdynamik, das ein kraftvolleres Spiel in einem staerkeren Dynamikbereich erlaubt.
Ich werde fuer Benutzer, die dieser Art der Anschlagdynamik vorziehen, ein eigenes articulation
file zum download bereitstellen.
Einige Benutzer schaetzen auch die Verwendung von Filtern auf den verschiedenen layers,
was ein etwas weicher klingendes Piano ergibt. Ich persoenlich bin kein Freund von Filtern,
da diese meiner Meinung nach die samples ein wenig - vielleicht auch nur minimal - ihrer
Lebendigkeit und ihres Charakters berauben. Viele sind mit der Zeit an weicher klingende
gesamplete Pianos gewoehnt worden, denn diese sind waehrend der letzten Jahre immer mehr
zur Norm geworden.
Bitte beachten Sie, dass ein weicher klingender Fluegel nicht notwendig besser klingt.
Meiner Meinung nach klingen gesamplete Fluegel waehrend der letzten Jahre zu weich. Dies
war fuer meine Ohren stets ein Abstrich an Realitaetstreue. Ich halte unbearbeitete und
ungefilterte samples fuer den realistischeren, klareren Klang, der sich in ein
Arrangement mit anderen Instrumenten besser einfuegt. Andere werden dieser persoenlichen
Einschaetzung nicht zustimmen. Aus diesem Grund werde ich auch ein articulation file
download mit etwas Filter anbieten.
Es gibt einige wenige Toene bei diesem Fluegel, deren Klang etwas heller erscheint
als der einiger anderer. Dies ist bedingt durch die Beschaffenheit des Filzbelags
der verschiedenen Haemmer, welche die eigentliche Charakteristik dieses Instruments darstellt.
Ich werde auch ein articulation download bereitstellen, in dem diese einzelnen Toene
etwas gedaempft sind. Bedenken Sie auch, dass viele diese etwas helleren Toene genau
so belassen wollen, wie sie sind. Gerade diese machen den Charakter des speziellen
Boesendorfer Imperial Fluegels aus, der gesample\'t wurde.
Ich werde auch ein articulation file zum download anbieten, das genau diese Toene so
belaesst, wie sie sind.
Mehrere Benutzer haben gesagt, dass dies das erste gesamplete Piano ist, bei dem sie keinen
EQ einsetzen mussten, um es in einem Arrangement zur Geltung zu bringen. Die selben
Benutzer sind der Ansicht, dass dieses Piano in zusammen mit anderen Instrumenten besser
klingt als irgendein anderes gesampletes Piano. Das gilt sowohl fuer klassische Musik,
Jazz Soli und group performances. Fuer letztere bevorzuge ich den Klang dieses gesampleten
Boesendorfer Imperial so wie er ist, ohne jede Nachbearbeitung, wenngleich bisweilen eine
hochwertige Hallemulation eine schoene Bereicherung darstellen kann.
Sie macht den Klang insgesamt etwas weicher und vermittelt den Eindruck, diesen Fluegel
aus der Ferne, in einer Konzerthalle der Spitzenklasse zu hoeren. Sie koennen einen
Vergleich mit Hilfe der beiden verschiedenen \"Scherzo\" mp3 demos auf meiner website
anstellen. Eines der beiden Scherzos ist voellig unbearbeitet, waehrend das andere mit
Altiverb bearbeitet ist. Beiden mp3 Demos liegt dieselbe Originalaufnahme zu Grunde.

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[Franky]

Well, i received my copy of Kip\'s imperial Bosendorfer today and i must say it is really good. I have read this entire thread and i understand what some of you meant by saying you heard distortion, But i have played on many Grand Pianos and i can tell you there is NO DISTORTION in this library !!!, what you perceive to be distortion imho is a combination of the bright attacks and resonnance of the piano coupled with MP3 encoding that i know from experience doesn\'t like these frequencies....
and what you get is the appearance of distortion that is not present in the actual GIG, and i am very meticulous when it comes to sound ( Besides developping sound libraries, being a professional keyboard player my main source of income, i also do mastering).

I really like this new library by Kip, it is quite bright and is the first grand piano library that i can actually play fast blues piano with, i sort of made my own piano shootout with piano libraries i have access to which are Steinway B by EW, Wizoo \"The Grand\" and Kip\'s Bosendorfer and i must say it really has a character of it\'s own, i tried EW\'s Bosendorfer and i must honestly say i didn\'t like it, this one i like and is very usable for pop, blues. This library and \"The Grand\" give you the impression you\'re sitting in front of the actual piano, the EW Steinway B has more character but sounds like a well recorded session of a Steinway you don\'t have the impression of sitting in front of it, playing it.

Good job Kip ! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
Keep up the good work,
Franky
Vintaudio Prod. www.vintaudio.com (\"http://www.vintaudio.com\")