GOS E.T.theme

[Damon]

Here is the ET demo that Thomas did such a killer job using GOS strings. Of course my brass doesn\'t nearly compare and a few notes might be off, but here is what it could sound like with GOS if anyones interested http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
http://damonbbradley.tripod.com/damonbradley/ (\"http://damonbbradley.tripod.com/damonbradley/\")

The demo is at the bottom of my webpage.

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 01-16-2002).]

[notemover]

I am new to sampling and don\'t have any libriaries as of yet. I have been trying out different samples at stores... When I tried out Hunter\'s strings I thought they were terrible... BUT I recently found out they were using an emu set on a roland xv-5080. I keep getting that awefull sucking sound on every release.
Anyways, I personally think Hunter\'s strings sounded MUCH more realistic. I have been a symphony musician for years... but who am I to judge? I don\'t know what string libriary to buy? Any suggestions?
notemover

[Jeannot Welter]

GOS is the only library that comes close.
And it still needs a lot of tweaking using the GPCs. I have about 30 years of symphony experience.
Jeannot.

[Damon]

I went back and tightened up the strings more and fixed a few notes. I sure do wish I had Thomas\' brass though! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/frown.gif
All Violins SusV were used for the violin parts in Legato mode.
Cello SusV LEG, and Viola SusV Leg were used as well.
Bass is Miroslav because I like the warmth and tone of those basses (just a personal choice> GOS bass is still good http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif)
Brass is DD solo french horn Ens f and Miroslav fhs FF quietly underneath.
Percussion is UOP and harp is AO glissando.
Flutes are AO.
Anyway, Thomas got me inspired to hear what the demo would sound like on GOS http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 01-16-2002).]

[KingIdiot]

sounds nice Damon,

Might want to go back and add some slides or do glissandos between notes. Even slight grace notes will help create \"movement\" between notes.

Dan Dean brass responds REALLY well to glissandos

I made some really nice rips with the french horn in real time.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Damon]

Thanks for listening King http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif That\'s a good idea, but I\'m getting really burnt out on hearing this theme over and over (granted it\'s beautiful) and I don\'t know if I could get the DD french horn short crescendo to work. Maybe I\'ll try again tomorrow.
I did add another harp gliss and flute run.
Hey King, I\'d like to hear your french horn rips. Where would they be?



[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 01-17-2002).]

[Raven]

Anyways, I personally think Hunter\'s strings sounded MUCH more realistic. I have been a symphony musician for years... but who am I to judge? I don\'t know what string libriary to buy? Any suggestions?
notemover[/B][/QUOTE]

I have to agree that Kirk Hunter sounds more realistic. It seems that GOS lacks Realism. I listened to many Demos with GOS on this forum, but I aint impressed. I am mmore impressed with the compositions, even at that GOS still sounds lacking.

To me GOS is great, that it uses full Midi Capabilities and Maestro Tools. But I think I will make the choice to buy Miroslav or Kirk Hunter. I feel the Violins/Violas are more expressive in these Libraries.

I remember looking on this forum when the Demos for GOS came out and people were dissapointed. They took Demos off, and put it back on the forum. Well I am sad to say that the Demos still do not cut it for me, and even others compositions using GOS.

Go to Kirk Hunters site and listen to their Demos. It cannot compare!!

Apart from the Demos, the samples in GOS arent as good as what KH or Miroslav Portrays.

I do think GOS is very powerfull tool to use, when it comes to using Midi Controllers.

I wish for a Library that has the Sounds of Kirk Hunter/ Miroslav with the functionality and Maestro Tools that GOS has.


Conclusion:
GOS does not come close to the others, even though its ahead in technology, its samples dont satisfy my ear. My Roland Orchestral Library sounds better than GOS, and does not come close to KH.

You caint touch this!!!!

Strictly my own Opinion


Raven


[This message has been edited by Raven (edited 01-17-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Raven (edited 01-17-2002).]

[KingIdiot]

I say give GOS to Thomas J and he\'ll show you how GOS can perform. He\'s got an ear to reproduce orchestral music. He\'s good with reverb (tho a bit wet...but I like it), sequencing, and EQ. Not that Damon doesn\'t know what he\'s doing, He\'s proven the contrary many times before.

I personally believe GOS sounds better than Kh on the whole, and that there are better options in GOS than KH.

The short nows especially are a weeek point In KH IMO. The hard attack strings can be simulated with layering Martele patches over sustain patches in GOS.

Remember in the two demos posted there are major differences.

Different Brass, different arrangement, different mixing, more mono in Thomas\' sound All this makes for a different sound, not just the library itself.

Just pointing out that you cannot compare the two demos on the same level. The only way to do that is to have two demos by the same person. Another option would be for Thomas to share his MIDI and audio of everything but the strings, have one of us tailor the string part for GOS, then grab the strings from one of us and remix the track.

Its the same as people sharing MIDI files to compare libraries....stupid in my opinion unless each one gets tailored to the library


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Really...I am an Idiot

[Raven]

Just pointing out that you cannot compare the two demos on the same level. The only way to do that is to have two demos by the same person. Another option would be for Thomas to share his MIDI and audio of everything but the strings, have one of us tailor the string part for GOS, then grab the strings from one of us and remix the track.

Its the same as people sharing MIDI files to compare libraries....stupid in my opinion unless each one gets tailored to the library


KingIdiot

You made a very valid point. I would like to see Thomas J do the exact ET mockup himself with GOS and then compare!!!!!

This would be great!!!

Anyway I did not mean to affend anyone, to me all the Demos I have heard without (just solo violin) Kirk Hunter still sounds better!

Thomas J could you make a Midi Mockup with GOS to compare both Libraries?

Thanks


Raven

[This message has been edited by Raven (edited 01-17-2002).]

[KingIdiot]

no offense taken here Raven,

Just trying to find some sort of valid comparison between what each library can do if its pushed.

I\'m impressed with everything TJ gets out of his samples. Including AO and Prosonous. He really knows how to tweak and get the right sound. Also Marteen does some amazing work with the older libraries.

like you said its an opinion about the sounds, but I still have yet to really pass my judgement on KH. I know I dont like the short bows, but until I actually use the library I cant really make an assessment.



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Really...I am an Idiot

[Damon]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raven:
[B]Thomas J could you make a Midi Mockup with GOS to compare both Libraries?
Anyway I did not mean to affend anyone, to me all the Demos I have heard without (just solo violin) Kirk Hunter still sounds better!

Thomas does not have GOS, that\'s why I made the demo to compare the sounds of the 2 libraries and because I was inspired by Thomas\' demo.
Raven, sorry you didn\'t like the GOS demo. Makes me wanna stop posting my demos for sure now http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/frown.gif. I wouldn\'t want to hurt Garys library in any way. It\'s a terrific library IMHO.
Wow, there\'s always gotta be someone on this forum to ruin your day.
Sorry to sound bitter, but that was kinda harsh and I am a little offended seeing how I did this to hopefully turn people on to GOS. Guess I didn\'t succeed. I appreciate your honesty though Raven.


[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 01-17-2002).]

[KingIdiot]

Damon, dont take it too personally. Its still a matter of taste. Some people like different sound. Still I think the fact that TJ\'s demo was a completely different mix has to do with whats going on. There is a \"gel\" going on in Tj\'s mix, mostly because his brass is really great sounding. Also he\'s sequenced the piece a bit differently. Another thing to remember is posting demos helps you hear things you might not normally hear through other people\'s \"ears\". Believe me I\'ve posted some caca out here that Hashelped teach me waht to go after in terms of sound.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 01-17-2002).]

[Thomas_J]

Wow this topic sure turned out interesting!
I\'ve listened to both Damon and KingIdiots piece and I must say they both sound great! Good work guys! (I will ignore the fact that both of them are incomplete in the orchestration)

The way I see it GoS has several limitations that goes in another direction from Kirk Hunter\'s limits. I\'m talking about the lack of expression in the sustained violins (I\'m guessing it\'s the sustained patch I\'m hearing) - lack of vibrato. This could either be because 1) there are too many players, or 2) the vibrato isn\'t heavy enough. I used the 8 violins patch in Kirk Hunter, which I believe sounds more heartfelt because of the heavy vibrato.

I believe the ultimate(!) mix for this E.T string line would be a blend of Kirk and GoS. Have any of you tried layering the GoS violins with my mp3? I think it could produce some interesting results!

The lack of multiple velocity layers in Kirk Hunter makes it impossible to improve the realism. In the normal sustain patch the attack is too slow (in the sample, not an attack envelope) and therefore you are forced to use the Hard attack patches, which tend to be too hard. There\'s nothing in between. That\'s why I think GoS would fill the holes very well. I think the best solution to string lines is a combination of Kirk H. and GoS. I really like what I\'m hearing here King & Damon. Is it much work to try layering the GoS violins (doubled) over my Kirk Hunter? (There are never enough violins http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Btw, the horn thingy is something I threw in for kicks. The fact that there are already 4 horns playing a 3-part 16th note figure (provided it\'s in 6/8) makes it impossible (not to mention unrealistic in this context) for the horns to play that response to the theme. I just threw it in because it sounded cool http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif One of the joys of midi-orchestration I guess. Doing unconventional / impossible things with the orchestra http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Haydn, help me out here. Are the bassoons playing in unis with the horns or do they have their own part? Also, what are the trombones doing?

Thanks again, guys. You have really shed some light on GoS (positively).

Simon, I do not have time to remove the strings and rebounce it + encode it. Feel free to layer the GoS over my mix though.
I\'m working my *** off on some projects right now and this E.T mockup was just me, fooling around on a late evening.
Anyway, I\'m guessing you should be more than able to make your own orchestral mockup of the theme, with your selections of sounds, and that would be MUCH more interesting to listen to.

I appreciate all the interesting feedback and as usual you are the best at helping people out! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Raven: Unfortunately I cannot make a GoS demo of the same E.T piece because I do not have GoS.

About your comments:
While I do believe you make certain valid points you should be careful to bash the GoS library before you\'ve heard about the great features of it: Up/down bowing of ALL articulations (afaik) makes for a MUCH more realistic string library, even if it isn\'t as full of life in the high register as the Kirk Hunter 8 violins patch. IMO there are some fantastic GoS demos out there. Garritan is at NAMM showing off new demos as well. I would wait a few months before anything else if I were you.

So what do you say? Anyone up for the challenge of blending Kirk with GoS?

Thomas

[KingIdiot]

You\'re probably right about layering Thomas J. Then again I always like the idea of layering http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif KH and GOS should work well together, and Id try it if I had KH http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

There are GR Detache patches with quite a bit more vibrato as well as expression. Current limitation is their length, but that willl soon be remedied. Really expressive WIDE vibrato is something I dont hear on any library. KH with the layered smaller strings has it. I think layering any solo string(s) on top of a section will help get taht sound tho. In fact I can\'t wait for Gary\'s solo library for this. Imagine the articulations and control on top of the articulations and control of GOS.... ok I need some private time http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Simon Ravn]

Thomas, I will not layer Kirk with GOS, even if it could create more realism, since I am on a mission to prove that GOS can do it better than KH http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Anyway, I know King Idiot\'s GOS mockup and that\'s pretty good, so I am not sure that I\'ll use time to make it all from scratch for the umpteenth (sp?) time. Then again - I might http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Have you used sheetmusic or just listened to do it? I noticed that there were a couple of errors in Damons melody hehe http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif SO I guess at least Damon didnt use sheets.

[Damon]

No, I can\'t read a note of sheet music and I didnt really listen to the piece that much to pick it out. I guess I should have more! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/blush.gif I just listened to the melody and used my ear to figure out what chords could go along with it. I knew there was some weird notes close to the end that I just couldn\'t pick out. There is also some kind of french horn or trombone sixteenth note stacattos going on.




[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 01-18-2002).]

[Raven]

Thanks to all

First Damon, It is not your music capabilities, Kirk Hunter Strings just sound better to me. I can definately hear that Vibrato and it just satisfies my ear.

Damon, I think you also have what it takes to do this stuff. In fact I listened to your other Demos and I absolute love SKY, and WISH.

By the way, which Piano did you use in Wish?

Thanks

Raven

[Haydn]

I used Kirk Hunter strings prior to using GOS. I found the same limitations that Thomas_J mentioned regarding slow attacks on the expressive samples and the attacks being to hard on the shorter bowed samples with KH. I found I had to layer in AO strings and my Roland String Ensemble to tone down the attacks. Tried Miroslav and it was unable to do anything else than slow pieces.

The vibrato is quite heavy in Kirk Hunter but I find it to be much heavier than most classical and movie scores I listen to. GOS is much closer to the music I listen to. Also, I think the upper octave in violins in KH sounds strange - the vibratos get too fast. I\'ve been getting a much better string orchestra with GOS without having to resort to layering in other sample libraries. GOS is not perfect as of yet, but Gary and Tom are constantly making it better!

Thomas_J, I don\'t have the score in front of me. What sequencer are you using? I\'m using Cakewalk and can send you my MIDI file which has the whole 10 minute ET suite. The score is quite dense at this point. The counterpoint played by the horns and trumpets is awesome. Email me if you are interested in the sequence: haydn12@home.com

[Raven]

About your comments:
While I do believe you make certain valid points you should be careful to bash the GoS library before you\'ve heard about the great features of it: Up/down bowing of ALL articulations (afaik) makes for a MUCH more realistic string library, even if it isn\'t as full of life in the high register as the Kirk Hunter 8 violins patch. IMO there are some fantastic GoS demos out there. Garritan is at NAMM showing off new demos as well. I would wait a few months before anything else if I were you.

Dear Thomas J

Your point is very well taken. I just have not made up my mind on a library. Kirk Hunter does sound better to me, but lacks functionality. I have AO, and think I will rather spend more time mastering it, than changing so soon. Maybe in a few months I would have mad up my mind.

Thomas J, King,Damon, Martin , Simon and many others have done wonderfull work!

Raven

[Thomas_J]

I wonder why everybody made E.T mockups. Oh well! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Simon, I don\'t have the sheet music, only the score on cd. The part I wrote is pretty simple in its orchestration. You can pick out most of the essential stuff by ear.

Like all of Williams\' music, this score consists of loads of maj7 harmonies. That\'s basically what you hear in the horns, doing their 16ths pattern.

Thomas

[Simon Ravn]

Thomas, are you playing 3 or 4-note 16th chords with both trombones and french horns? And what are the celli playing apart from doubling the melody? I cant seem to get my mix as \'full\' as yours... Will work on it tomorrow again I guess http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Damon]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
I wonder why everybody made E.T mockups. Oh well! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Your demo was so impressive Thomas, I had to try it with GOS. I love the full sound you get http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif By the way, I fixed the melody line and added a tad more bite to the violin attacks.

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 01-17-2002).]

[Thomas_J]

Playing 3part harmonies in horns. Trombones are playing major 6ths in my own figure http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif (but I\'m pretty sure there aren\'t any trombones in the real piece)
Tuba is doubling the bass. I just went with my ear, on what sounded good or not. Didn\'t copy the score exactly like it is. I took some liberations http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif The celli are playing in unis with the rest of the violins & violas and perhaps divisi in a major fifth above the basses in the same rhythmic pattern. I can\'t listen to it right now, so I\'m not too sure. I would guess that\'s what williams is doing. Doubling in fifths in celli from the upper bass voice usually helps fattening up the sound. I would be careful with it here though. Another guess would be that the 7th in the maj7 chord would be accented in either violas or celli, or bassoons. Fool around a little. Looking forward to hearing it.

Thomas

[PatS]

\"major fifth\"? Urrrrrr! Thank you for playing, Mr. Thomas_J! For your consolation prize, you will receive a one-year course in Music Theory 101 or the entire collection of John Williams\' scores (courtesy of Damon and/or Simon Ravn). Take your pick. (Duh!) http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Sorry, Thomas. I really don\'t mean to pick on you. I\'m just a bit overworked at the moment and needed to have a little fun.

Pat

[notemover]

I tend to agree with Raven the KH sounds better in the demo department than GOS. So what string libriary should one buy to start off with. Should I just get the Full AO and go from there. What about Ultimate Strings? Their demos didn\'t sound too bad. So it comes down to KH, GOS, and possibly US? GOS seems very dry, almost synthy/buzzy, and lacking in expression IMHO (only from the demos I have heard). Any suggestions... Bye the way. GOOD WORK ON THE DEMOS GUYS!
Notemover

[Thomas_J]

Lol that\'s supposed to be a perfect 5th of course hehehe sorry for that terrible mistake http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Thomas

[Simon Ravn]

Theory-nerds.... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I knew what Thomas meant. Had it been minor fifth, he\'d have written that. Or is MINOR FIFTH wrong too? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Thomas_J]

Hehe I\'m afraid that\'d be wrong as well Simon http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif A \"minor 5th\" would be a tritone. (wonderful interval http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Good luck on your mockup!

Thomas

[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 01-17-2002).]

[PatS]

Yeah, I think we all knew what he meant. But can you say \"diapente perfectum\" or, better yet, \"proslambanomenos\" (one of my favorite words)? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Yes, I am a board-certified (certifiable?) music theorist--a.k.a., a theory nerd (or at least I was in the not-too-distant past). I just figured it was time for someone to beat up poor Thomas again. Lord knows he doesn\'t get enough of that around here. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Pat

\"Mi against fa is the devil in music.\"

Believe it or not, this phrase is a reference to the tritone (augmented 4th/diminished 5th), not the semitone. Any guesses as to what it means?

[Damon]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by notemover:
I tend to agree with Raven the KH sounds better in the demo department than GOS. So what string libriary should one buy to start off with. Should I just get the Full AO and go from there. What about Ultimate Strings?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Wait till Simons demo is up, then decide. Don\'t get AO for strings. It has some great and very usable samples, but the strings are VERY weak except for layering the soft sustains patch.
Ultimate Strings could have been great, but alot of the samples are out of tune and unfortunately some of the best samples on it have terrible noticeable loop points. It has a great cello marcato to layer under GOS celli marcato though.
Kirk Hunter sounds great to me for string lines, but I don\'t like the fast strings at all on the library. Maybe the new GOS version has better fast strings.
GOS is my personal choice just because of the variety. It\'s not a perfect library, but to me it sounds great. You can spend a WHOLE lot of time experimenting with this 16 CD set of strings (layering, GPC controls, etc.).
Prosonus Orchestra collection has some great sounding marcatos from what I heard on www.bigfishaudio.com (\"http://www.bigfishaudio.com\")

[notemover]

Damon, thanks for your reply!!! I have heard a lot bad reviews about AO strings so I will wait. I want to buy a good, affordable, starter libriary so I guess I can\'t go wrong with AO for $795. I really don\'t know what to think about reviews anymore... I guess it is all down to personal taste. For section string I use the roland orchestral 2 card and get convincing results, and I know people who would touch that with a ten foot pole. I don\'t have any usable brass, not very winds, and almost no percussion. It\'s too bad the ultimate string have noticible loop points because I was seriuosly considering them... Bye the way Damon, your demo sounds qery quite nice!!! I liked what you did in the revision.

[Damon]

Thanks for listening Raven. Glad you liked the other 2 demos. I used just Gigapiano on Wish, which I don\'t really like. It sounds kinda thin to me. I tried the Malmsjo and it sounded to dark, so I guess I will need to buy another piano soon.
The ET demo was done rather quickly. More editing with the GPCs and layering the 1st violins and 2nd violins over the All violins can produce a HUGE sound. I just got lazy, maybe I\'ll try again for the hell of it. I might layer Dan Deans solo violin which has alot of expression over the violins as well.
I did layer Miroslav strings over the GOS, but the attacks on Miroslav clearly pointed out there is no smooth legato, so I axed them.
I can\'t read a note of music either, so if I could I would\'ve gotten some more notes right.
I think Kirk Hunter does have a nice BIG Hollywood type sound for the sustains and has great expression, but the short fast strings on Kirk Hunter don\'t hold a candle to GOS. I think the Prosonus marcatos do however have a very pleasing sound with just the right amount of bite to cut through.
Wait until Simon does his ET mockup with GOS, I\'m sure it will sound awesome.
I think if I had some better brass ensembles, that could\'ve helped alot more too. I like the DD french horn, but I think it would\'ve sounded better if I owned QLB and layered the 4 french horns underneath.



[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 01-17-2002).]

[Damon]

Thanks for listening to the revision and kind words notemover http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
I used to have the Roland Orch 2 card as well in my XP-80 http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif, but sold it once I got newer and larger samples. It\'s a good expansion board IMHO. I LOVE the \"Big Hit\" percussion patch on it. I wish I still had that card for some of the sounds on it!
I think the Orch 2 card has some very nice strings on it from what I remember.
Do you have any mp3s you could send me with the Orch 2 strings? I\'d like to hear them again.

[Thomas_J]

PatS: \"Mi against Fa is the devil in music\" sounds like something you would hear in the medieval times. Those were the days when tritones were banned from the churches because it was believed to \"summon\" the devil. Anyway, my _guess_ is that the overtones you get when you play Mi and Fa together is that of a tritonus.

Thomas

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by notemover:
Damon, thanks for your reply!!! I have heard a lot bad reviews about AO strings so I will wait. I want to buy a good, affordable, starter libriary so I guess I can\'t go wrong with AO for $795. I really don\'t know what to think about reviews anymore... Bye the way Damon, your demo sounds qery quite nice!!! I liked what you did in the revision.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don\'t own any of these libraries but I have still to hear anything at all negative about Garritan\'s strings (and this can be a critical bunch when it comes to strings).

I absolutely do not want to knock AO and perhaps it\'s just right for you, but if you wait a bit, Dan Dean is rumored to be on the verge of producing an orchestra. His stuff is excellent. I don\'t believe AO was designed for giga, so if you have a wad of cash burning a hole in your pocket, you might at least want to wait a bit longer.

You\'ll have these samples a long, long time and you might want to slit your throat if Mr. Dean produces something stunning within your budget (and he well might).

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
PatS: \"Mi against Fa is the devil in music\" sounds like something you would hear in the medieval times. Those were the days when tritones were banned from the churches because it was believed to \"summon\" the devil. Anyway, my _guess_ is that the overtones you get when you play Mi and Fa together is that of a tritonus.

Thomas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That\'s a very clever guess. After all, if Mi is E (mediant of a C-major scale) and Fa is F (subdominant), the second overtone of E (B) would create a tritone against the fundamental and several overtones of F. Very clever, indeed!

The classic explanation is that Mi is B of the \"hard\" hexachord (G-E), and Fa is F of the \"natural\" hexachord (C-A). (The \"soft\" hexachord spans F-D and, instead of B, includes a Bb--the soft or round B, hence the flat sign and the first instance of \"musica ficta\".) In early (medieval) counterpoint, one part might venture into the hard hexachord range, while another would move about in the natural hexachord range. Should the first part sing a B (Mi) while the other sings an F (Fa), both of them would be banished from the Abbey for inviting the devil into the music. Uhh, I\'m kidding! Incidentally, there are several forms of Mi-against-Fa (e.g., A1, d5, A5, d8, A8: A=augmented, d=diminished), but the tritone (d5/A4) is the most famous.

BTW, if you\'re looking for a good sedative, check out the following online articles on this stuff:

http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/harmony/hex2.html (\"http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/harmony/hex2.html\")

http://www.societymusictheory.org/mto/issues/mto.96.2.5/mto.96.2.5.wibberley.html (\"http://www.societymusictheory.org/mto/issues/mto.96.2.5/mto.96.2.5.wibberley.html\")

I believe you\'ll find a reference to \"Mi-against-Fa\" in the *Oxford Dictionary of Music* (entry on tritone), as well as in a footnote in Fux\'s *Gradus ad Parnassum.*

Sleep well! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Pat

P.S. Sorry for momentarily hijacking this topic. Now, back to Damon, GOS, and the E.T. theme. BTW, nice job, Damon!

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 01-18-2002).]

[Jeff Hurchalla]

Ok, this is really getting off topic now Pat, but since we\'re straying slightly in this way - can you recommend one great material (be it book or score) for learning counterpoint? I\'ve been working with Palestrina\'s Missa Brevis for fun lately. My theory is almost non-existant, so a book like Fux\' might be good. But then I really enjoy a good piece of music.

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Hurchalla:
Ok, this is really getting off topic now Pat, but since we\'re straying slightly in this way - can you recommend one great material (be it book or score) for learning counterpoint? I\'ve been working with Palestrina\'s Missa Brevis for fun lately. My theory is almost non-existant, so a book like Fux\' might be good. But then I really enjoy a good piece of music.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I used Robert Gauldin\'s \"A Practical Approach to Sixteenth-Century Counterpoint\" (in addition to Zarlino\'s treatise) for my class in Renaissance counterpoint (a la late Josquin through Palestrina and Lassus) and Gauldin\'s \"A Practical Approach to Eighteenth-Century Counterpoint\" for Baroque counterpoint (a la J. S. Bach and his contemporaries). I\'ve looked at a lot of texts in my day, and these are the two that I prefer for studying modal and tonal counterpoint. Stay away from Fux: he looked at 16th-century music through his squinty 18th-century eyes. Granted, training in species counterpoint can be useful, but Fux won\'t help you to understand how 16th-century music really works.

Pat

[Jeff Hurchalla]

Thanks Pat! I\'ll look into them. I think I\'d have eventually gotten round to Fux otherwise
Jeff

[notemover]

Damon, thanks again for replying. I could send you an my3 of my string work but I don\'t know how to rip it off my cd and convert to wave or mp3. Is there any freeware out there that can do that. By the way that string piece I wrote is being performed by a VERY famous string orchestra and am extremely excited to hear it be performed by a world class group. It will be my first professional performance. I am 21 now and haven\'t had a lot of performances as of yet. Maybe I could post a real vs mock up version of the piece. I am sure it probably won\'t even be close.. LOL... Anyways. Thanks Damon... I a glad I found this group. There are a lot of talented and nice people here.
notemover

[Damon]

Congrats on the string piece notemover! Nothing like the real deal to be able to perform your own piece http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif.
As for beeing able to make mp3s, download MusicMatch jukebox for free. It\'s got a function that lets you convert CD to mp3. That\'s all I use to do it.
Looking forward to hearing your demos!

[Jeff Hurchalla]

Pat, I have a few minor questions, but I\'d rather not take over this topic. Could I send you an email? You could let me know at jeff@marblesound.com

[Sapkiller]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PatS:

\"Mi against fa is the devil in music.\"
Any guesses as to what it means?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I recall it the term was included in some medievil Pope\'s Communique - and as we all know: pope\'s and cardinals has cottonwool for ears and didnt know the first thing about music - so maybe they just made
a cockup :-)

No, seriously the term originates from the
Hexachord system and compares the \'FA\' from
the scale beginning on C forming the Neutral
mode ( C-D-E-F-G-A, where F is FA ) hexachord AND the \'MI\' from the HARD mode
beginning on G (G-A-B-C-D-E)hexachord.
And this constitutes all I know about
hexachords, but Allaire has a lot to say
about Hexachords in:
\'The theory of Hexachords, Solmization and
the modal system\'.

Bjk

[Sapkiller]

Hi Pat
arrghh - I just read your later post now.
So it was really just a rethorical( how the
hell do you spell that?) question?
You knew it all along!! - Smart *** :-)
Now I look like a jerk..

Bjk

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sapkiller:
Hi Pat
arrghh - I just read your later post now.
So it was really just a rethorical( how the
hell do you spell that?) question?
You knew it all along!! - Smart *** :-)
Now I look like a jerk..

Bjk

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, it wasn\'t a rhetorical question. I was curious to see if anyone here had heard of hexachords and/or solmization. I was the \"jerk\" for not waiting long enough for someone to answer. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Again, back to the E.T. Theme and GOS. (And I\'m off to NAMM tomorrow morning.)

Pat
pshove@ghs.com (if you want to take this off topic)

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by notemover:
Is there any freeware out there that can do that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I recently came across dBpowerAMP, which uses the LAME mp3 encoder. It\'s free and allows for numerous plug-ins (other encoders and utilities).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
By the way that string piece I wrote is being performed by a VERY famous string orchestra and am extremely excited to hear it be performed by a world class group.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Congratulations!!! Which ensemble? When will it be performed?

Pat

[notemover]

Damon, Pats... Thanks... and I\'ll give those programs a try... The orchestra just read it and got a responce back that the conductor and musicians really liked it. It will possibly be played a year from now when they do their annual american tour. (I feel so honored and greatful) I really liked the conductor and the musicians. They have a special energy that is just breathtaking. I don\'t know about posting their name here, I am nieve and could get in some trouble, I will check things out first.
Back to GOS ET THEME... Now... I just downloaded the 3 demos from the KIRK HUNTER website and the strings to me sound fabulous. That is the sound I am looking for. Have you guys recently heard those demos? If not I think you should give them a listen again. I think I listened to those demos 5 times each... WOW... Once again they are only demos, but they sound to be much better than GOS. To me GOS sounds synthy... I hear that buzzy sawtooth sound in it and it seems dry and lifeless. Good symphony musicians know to keep their left hand vibrating before the notes are executed and maintain constant vibrato throughout the piece unless is a special effect is called for or you are playing baroque music. Also some of the most expressive playing comes from left hand accents not just from the bow. Now GOS may prove there weight in gold for fast runs and such, but I don\'t know. I heard some demos that SIMON RAVN did with GOS and they are excellent!!! Now they make me want to give GOS a go. Once again I a only basing my opinions on demos and not actual use of them. I know next to nothing about sampling, I just know what I like and what sounds real and expressive to me.
Thanks for your help
Notemover