Way OT and p*ssing me off

[rolifer]

I have a credit card with a bank that went under and was sold off to Chase Bank.

I just received a letter from Chase saying that they were happy to have me aboard and that the rate on my credit card will be changed because they are so glad to have me as a new customer.

I had a rate of 12% with the old bank.

Chase is raising it to 29%.

Read the news tomorrow about a bank blowing up.

Ron

[rpearl]

Ron,

Call them up, and ask if they will change the rate - they will almost always do so. If they don't, dump 'em and get a better card. Get one that gives you points (amazing how fast they add up, as long as you don't use it to buy stuff you don't need...). But they will listen; they assume you'll say "Uh, ok, whatever you say".

But you are right: it should tick you off ( I'm cleaning up your language;))

Good luck.

[Larry Seyer]

I have a credit card with a bank that went under and was sold off to Chase Bank.

I just received a letter from Chase saying that they were happy to have me aboard and that the rate on my credit card will be changed because they are so glad to have me as a new customer.

I had a rate of 12% with the old bank.

Chase is raising it to 29%.

Read the news tomorrow about a bank blowing up.

Ron

Let me see if I understand.

Taxpayers are borrowing money from China so that we can give it to the banks so that the banks can lend it back to us for a profit.

Is anybody else as confused about this as I am?

L

[Tom_Davis]

My recent experience with credit cards (I had only one) was with HSBC. I had been a customer of theirs for 10 years. I paid off my card last August and was saving it for a trip this winter. When I went to use the card it was declined. Very humiliating. When I called the bank they told me that they were cancelling all cards with no balance and/or that had not been used for a period of at least 3 months. I had had a $20,000 limit and a spotless record at 9.5%. They said it could not be reinstated because I had violated the terms of the contract by not carrying a balance. However, I could apply for a new card at only 29% and a limit of $500. I hung up

[Garritan]

Let me see if I understand.

Taxpayers are borrowing money from China so that we can give it to the banks so that the banks can lend it back to us for a profit.

Is anybody else as confused about this as I am?

L
Hi Larry,

I'm confused too! Taxpayers are borrowing money from China (and other countries) to give it to banks. So banks can lend it and make unwise loans that result many foreclosures. They become so big in doing so, that they are too big to fail and then the government bails them out. And then they keep the bailout money (and are given big bonuses and greater positions of power) but keep the money and do not lend it to people - except Rolifer's rate jumps to 29%. Then the unwise investments become toxic debt which the taxpayer has to guarantee and the toxic debt goes into the "bad bank" ..... and on it goes...

Does any of this make sense? ~|~|~|~|~|


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5vkPiCEjjdg/SY8SE63ep2I/AAAAAAAADSo/TP9VjlCtM2E/s400/15.gif

[P.T.]

I'm confused also.
People keep voting for the usual suspects with D and R after their names that continue to screw the Country.

[Hippie]

Now you all know why I drink.

[Garritan]

Idea of the Day:

Let's start our own bank, or better yet credit union.

We'll put Styxx in charge of the funny money. :p

[jmpaquette]

Idea of the Day:

Let's start our own bank, or better yet credit union.

We'll put Styxx in charge of the funny money. :p
AAAAaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh!

[Rhap2]

Yeah.........

Let's name it GARRITAN AUTHORIZED BANK or "GAB."

Jack

[conwaylemmon]

the federal reserve is a private bank. they loan the USA the money it issues at interest. your taxes go to pay that interest (not to build roads). tho USA then borrows more money and the circle repeats. its like infinite bottles of beer on the wall. it will never end. its a scam. and you can't move to another country to get away from it. credit cards are a nice way for the banks to make profits, but they are also a way to teach us that life is debt. its how the world works. we can blame the elected officials, but really, no one can do anything to stop it. its built in. go read about the federal reserve act. cash isn't even cash, cash is debt!
we're F'ed

[PaulR]

I love banks. Barclays Bank - 1.18 and rising :D

I'm fascinated to see what happens when all those lovey dovey tracker mortgage rates run their course.

[nikolas]

I proudly declare that I don't have a credit card! YES I DON'T! Cause I use debit ones instead! )(~

Other than that Banks are going nuts, as is everything else in the world right now. What's new? (29% BLIMEY!!!!!!!!1 :mad:)

But GAB sounds like a cool idea really! ~|

[PaulR]

Don't worry about the banks - they will get their money back - generally done historically through the 'personal sector' - mwhahahhah.

I love banks. I think I'm going to be the pro banker on this thread just for the hell of it. :D

[qccowboy]

29%??????????????????

isn't that called Loansharking?

I thought that was illegal?

[tradivoro]

Just out of curiosity rolifer, were you carrying charges on other cards that were close to the limit?? Not that I'm trying to take their side but trying to understand why they would do that... These banks are shooting themselves in the foot, cause before they were tyring to get people signed up for credit cards left and right, now, people who have large amount of credit cards debt, even if they have one credit card clean, their rates are going up to 29% and the people with the debt will never be able to get out... Which invites bankruptcy... Which means, now they won't get any of their money... Definitely a very stupid way to handle the situation... Sorry that you had to go through this...

[swinkler]

I proudly declare that I don't have a credit card! YES I DON'T! Cause I use debit ones instead! )(~

Other than that Banks are going nuts, as is everything else in the world right now. What's new? (29% BLIMEY!!!!!!!!1 :mad:)

But GAB sounds like a cool idea really! ~|

Good for you nikolas. You're a slave to no one!!

Steve Winkler

[dominick]

I seems that many are confused about what is going on with our banking system and the congressional payback (bailout?). The fact is, nothing can be done at this time to stop Congress from paying back the lobbyists that keep each House and Senate member in office, especially those who are on finance committees. Please note that not one member of Congress has resigned in disgrace - why should they, when no one is challenging what they have done to our country?

http://realtime.sunlightprojects.org/2008/06/26/birnbaum-bank-of-america-lobbyists-wrote-parts-of-bank-bail-out-bill/

Our current laws clearly state that any public official can receive money to influence how they vote on or make laws. Lobbyists can therefore spend hundreds of millions of dollars with impunity each year to pay and tell members of congress how they should shape laws and vote on matters of private corporate interest. In most other countries, this is usually called bribing public officials, but it is perfectly legal here.

I can only image that when there are 20 to 30 million people out of work, there might be a few individuals that question why congress isn't interested in making laws to protect the middle class taxpayer, instead of laws that serve corporate and individual greed. We obviously need more people paying attention to our politicians, instead of sports and the screw ups of celebrities.

Hopefully, with our advancing communications systems, someone will come up with a peaceful way to remove and replace the current members of congress with those that represent the public interest. I doubt it, as the Republican and Democrat "parties" have a stranglehold on who gets to run for public office, and corporate America will continue to dictate who these parties offer, and what their sponsored newscasters read off the TelePrompter.

Disgusting!

[dudefromthebronx]

This whole economic stimulus thing is ticking me off too. Here's an idea: This tax filing season, everybody pay their federal taxes to their home states. No kidding! We'll have all the money we need to keep our own wheels turning. 85,000 IRS employees would immediately walk off the job. What can they do?

If you want economic stimulus without the pain, do it yourself. Hey, why do you think they neglected to put enough lifeboats on the Titanic? We're in steerage class, folks, and there's an iceberg up ahead. Sink or swim, you decide.*()

[rbowser-]

"...Sink or swim..."

Hence our Prez trying to untangle the mess he inherited.

Randy B.

[bigears]

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll30/jtan232/titanic.jpg

[etLux]

Read the news tomorrow about a bank blowing up.



I suspect a whole lot of us would enjoy holding the
match with you while you light the fuse.

Any volunteers?

[etLux]

For those with an interest, may I present:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h1as2.txt.pdf

May I forewarn that reading the whole thing is
roughly akin to swallowing a three-foot hoagie
while yodeling Ave Maria...

[rpearl]

For those with an interest, may I present:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h1as2.txt.pdf

May I forewarn that reading the whole thing is
roughly akin to swallowing a three-foot hoagie
while yodeling Ave Maria...

Aw David, here we are getting our knickers in a twist about banks and credit cards, and you gotta start in with the yodeling...


Sheesh

[Gregory Shaw]

For those with an interest, may I present:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h1as2.txt.pdf

May I forewarn that reading the whole thing is
roughly akin to swallowing a three-foot hoagie
while yodeling Ave Maria...

How could anyone could object to that?

[rbowser-]

Man, this is getting WAY out of control.

My wife called me today, almost crying, and said that she talked to "The Boss" and he wants to lay off a bunch of people, and have executives (my wife) take a $50,000 pay cut...

We're already making pea soup for dinner...

Ern :(
I love pea soup.

I haven't made a total of $50,000 over the last 10 years added together.

Isn't perspective an interesting thing?

The rich stay rich - even when their party is no longer in power. At least they may not get richer. :)

Randy B.

[etLux]

Aw David, here we are getting our knickers in a twist about banks and credit cards, and you gotta start in with the yodeling...


Sheesh

Gosh, Ron, I'm sorry. Really I am. That was
thoughtless of me.

Let me rephrase...

Reading the whole thing is roughly akin to swallowing
a three-foot hoagie while Tony plays Ave Maria on
bagpipes.

[rpearl]

Gosh, Ron, I'm sorry. Really I am. That was
thoughtless of me.

Let me rephrase...

Reading the whole thing is roughly akin to swallowing
a three-foot hoagie while Tony plays Ave Maria on
bagpipes.

As long as it isn't on the banjo, we're good... I mean some things are sacred.
Sorry Tony.

[jmpaquette]

For those with an interest, may I present:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h1as2.txt.pdf

May I forewarn that reading the whole thing is
roughly akin to swallowing a three-foot hoagie
while yodeling Ave Maria...
I read it. Not a ham-n-cheese sangwitch in the batch. Not a hint of hog.

Seriously, though - it takes a bit of thought, but everything in there can create jobs or save houses. No matter what you do, you're in someone's backyard, and subject to the "pork" accusation.

Joe

[etLux]

I read it. Not a ham-n-cheese sangwitch in the batch. Not a hint of hog.



May I note for the record I was referring to the
process of absorption; not the content of the
document.

[jmpaquette]

May I note for the record I was referring to the
process of absorption; not the content of the
document.
For the record: I was referring to the critics of the bill.

And I only needed a little bit of honey-mustard to digest it.:)

[Gregory Shaw]

I read it. Not a ham-n-cheese sangwitch in the batch. Not a hint of hog.


Joe

While we're clarifying - I didnt read it...Not very absorbing for something called a stimulus package. :p Just IMHO of course.

[Garritan]

29%??????????????????

isn't that called Loansharking?

I thought that was illegal?


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5vkPiCEjjdg/SY8SfEV2SOI/AAAAAAAADUw/0naoh38rLfk/s400/1.gif

[rolifer]

Well this is a ton of fun.

So who's P*ssed off?

I got better news today.

One of my other credit cards only raised the rate from 12% to 17%.

This is my lucky day.

I had to live for a year on credit cards while I was starting back to school. Never been late with a payment. Just lucky!

Ron

[dudefromthebronx]

So how's about it? We all pay our federal taxes to our home states and show the morons in Washington who's boss. Takers?*()

[robh]

I vote against blowing your brains out. Might make a mess of your remodelling work.:)

Rob

[reberclark]

And now it's getting down to what to do next? Move? Sell all my musical gear? Blow my brains out? Lots of options.

Best Regards,

Ern :|: :)

No blowing brains out allowed. See GPO manual, page 73, paragraph 7:

"No blowing brains out allowed."

So there.

[rolifer]

No blowing brains out allowed. See GPO manual, page 73, paragraph 7:

"No blowing brains out allowed."

So there.

In my copy of the manual there is an asterisk by that statement.

It says "Blowing brains out are allowed if you use a double barrel shotgun and follow the next instructions completely. With both barrels in the mouth, pull the trigger for the first barrel, count to 3 and then pull the trigger for the second barrel. If you do not pull the trigger for the second barrel, all warranties for all Garritan products shall not be honored."

My shotgun is a single barrel so I can't even try.

Ron

[reberclark]

In my copy of the manual there is an asterisk by that statement.

It says "Blowing brains out are allowed if you use a double barrel shotgun and follow the next instructions completely. With both barrels in the mouth, pull the trigger for the first barrel, count to 3 and then pull the trigger for the second barrel. If you do not pull the trigger for the second barrel, all warranties for all Garritan products shall not be honored."

My shotgun is a single barrel so I can't even try.

Ron

Ron, Did you get an advance copy of the GPO upgrade? That would explain the discrepancy. I just have the old GPO v2 manual.

[Garritan]

Bloomberg has reported on this today: (link courtesy of David)

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azAOM8G3illk&refer=home

Punctual Payers Face Higher Rates From Card Companies

Lenders came under fire yesterday in a U.S. Senate Banking Committee hearing for raising interest rates, adding fees and cutting credit lines, even for consumers perceived to be low- risk with high credit scores. Connecticut Democrat Christopher Dodd (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Christopher%0ADodd&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), the chairman, called the practices “gouging.”

...“At a time when our economy is in a crisis and consumers are struggling financially, credit-card companies in too many cases are gouging them, hiking interest rates on customers who pay on time and consistently meet the terms of their credit-card agreements,” Dodd said at the hearing yesterday.

[rbowser-]

Interesting, Gary! - It's been the not-so-hidden agenda with credit card companies (they used to be called "usurers" didn't they though?!) for a long time - that they thrive on customers who Don't keep up on their bills. Rotten business.

Do you realize that in Shakespeare's "The Merchant of Venice," the money-lender Shylock is hated for charging an interest rate far lower than credit companies do nowadays?

Randy

[etLux]

Bloomberg has reported on this today: (link courtesy of David)

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azAOM8G3illk&refer=home

Punctual Payers Face Higher Rates From Card Companies

Lenders came under fire yesterday in a U.S. Senate Banking Committee hearing for raising interest rates, adding fees and cutting credit lines, even for consumers perceived to be low- risk with high credit scores. Connecticut Democrat Christopher Dodd (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Christopher%0ADodd&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), the chairman, called the practices “gouging.”

...“At a time when our economy is in a crisis and consumers are struggling financially, credit-card companies in too many cases are gouging them, hiking interest rates on customers who pay on time and consistently meet the terms of their credit-card agreements,” Dodd said at the hearing yesterday.

What a bunch of boneheads.

Let me add one more story...

I have a flawless record across thirty years or more of never
once missing a payment or being late on one -- on anything,
ever.

Nevertheless, CitiGroup recently was kind enough to hijack
my rate into outer space and simultaneously reduce my credit
card limit by more than half!

By golly, that surely is going to encourage me to use that
card, now, isn't it?

Personally, that's no problem -- I never buy anything I cannot
immediately pay cash for; so a credit card is just a convenience.

But these sorts of idiotic tactics are going to accomplish just
one thing -- it's going to wreck bloody havoc with so may folks
who are already jacked up against the wall, financially...
resulting in skyrocketing credit card defaults, and further
catastrophic declines in the bottom lines of these already
technically bankrupt "lenders".

Note that I put "lenders" in quotes. Lenders my foot!
These are loan sharks and shylocks, nothing short of it.

That our legistlators and regulators allow this is a national
disgrace, well worthy or reviving the practice of public
crucifixion.

Best,



David
-----
David Sosnowski
www.DavidSosnowski.com

[Garritan]

People made purchases or pay-offs at low rates and budgeted accordingly. Changing rates/terms without a viable option to opt-out seems an abrogation of previous terms agreed to.

When folks who have perfect payment records have their payments skyrocket, without any increased risk, that seems unconscionable.

This is only going to make a bad situation worse in this fragile economy and force more people into default. Then the economy will worsen, and the banks undoubtedly will look for another bailout

After bailing out the banks with taxpayers money, jacking up rates to good-paying customers is some way to express gratitude.

----------

Here are some places to voice your concern if you are affected by these outrageous rate hikes:

The Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (Federal oversight of banks ) can be reached as follows:
http://www.occ.gov/customer.htm
email: Customer.Assistance@occ.treas. gov

Your State's Attorney General website can be found at
http://www.naag.org (http://www.naag.org/)

The United States Attorney General can be contacted at
http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/

The AntiTrust Division of the Department of Justice at
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/contact.html

Your State District's Federal Congressman can be found at
http://www.house.gov/

[PaulR]

I told you. They get it back through the personal sector. It's a fine banking tradition.

[Leaf]

Hopefully Chase and Citi, and any of the others who commit fraud on their customers, will soon go out of business. It's important that people never do any business with these jerks again.

I had a Paypal card, which became a Providian card, which became a Wamu card, and is now a Crooked Chase Card.

While i was taking care of my mom, i ran up 5000 in debt, but since i always payed on time, the interest kept going down. Now i have been making large payments to get it payed off.

After a few years of 14 percent, Wamu lowered it to 9 percent. As soon as Chase got it, they raised it to 21.99, and said "after March 2, we will lower it to 9.99."

But... knowing that was the deadline to close the account (opt out of their new anything goes policy), and knowing what they have been doing to others, i didn't want to take a chance so i closed it, locking the rate... unless they decide to raise it again anyway.

That's surprising that they would be trying to force so many people into bankruptcy right now. I knew this "bail-out" for bad businesses was a bad idea, Chase and friends are probably hoping for more economic disaster, so they can get another big pile of cash to rat-hole.

[Leaf]

People made purchases or pay-offs at low rates and budgeted accordingly. Changing rates/terms without a viable option to opt-out seems an abrogation of previous terms agreed to.

When folks who have perfect payment records have their payments skyrocket, without any increased risk, that seems unconscionable.

This is only going to make a bad situation worse in this fragile economy and force more people into default. Then the economy will worsen, and the banks undoubtedly will look for another bailout

After bailing out the banks with taxpayers money, jacking up rates to good-paying customers is some way to express gratitude.

----------

Here are some places to voice your concern if you are affected by these outrageous rate hikes:

The Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (Federal oversight of banks ) can be reached as follows:
http://www.occ.gov/customer.htm
email: Customer.Assistance@occ.treas. gov

Your State's Attorney General website can be found at
http://www.naag.org (http://www.naag.org/)

The United States Attorney General can be contacted at
http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/

The AntiTrust Division of the Department of Justice at
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/contact.html

Your State District's Federal Congressman can be found at
http://www.house.gov/

Thanks for posting those links, Gary. I'll definitely voice!

[GDG]

One bank (at least) is sending out innocuous-looking notices to customers who have home-equity credit line loans. The notice states something to the effect that the bank is unilaterally amending the loan agreement so that the interest rate cannot go below 10% (it is currently much less). Withdrawing any funds from the credit line constitutes acceptance of those terms. Not doing anything constitutes acceptance of those terms. It is possible to keep the current interest rate, but only by (a) notifying the bank that you reject the terms, and (b) not withdrawing any additional funds.

Watch out!

[dominick]

Lenders came under fire yesterday in a U.S. Senate Banking Committee hearing for raising interest rates, adding fees and cutting credit lines, even for consumers perceived to be low- risk with high credit scores. Connecticut Democrat Christopher Dodd (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Christopher%0ADodd&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), the chairman, called the practices “gouging.”


Lenders under fire from the U.S. Senate Banking Committee? I just can't figure out why our congressional representatives complain about the people who give them millions of dollars in legalized bribes (lobbyist contributions) every year. I wonder how much these same representatives and their political parties have already received in kickbacks (lobbyist contributions) so far this year?

I for one am sick and tired of watching these incompetent and pompous jackasses put on a public show, when they are responsible for the mess we are in and should have all resigned in disgrace! Apparently, they are too stupid to pass laws to protect the taxpayer; on the other hand, why should they?

I guess it may take another 10 to 15 million out of work before an honest political leader may emerge from this catastrophe, when people will actually start to question why we continue to let these blowhards ruin our country. Did you know that members of Congress earn $174,000 a year and are given even more money to hire personal and staff assistants. For example, Dodd, who is scolding bankers for gouging the public, spent another $2.3 million hiring his friends. The other 22 members of his banking committee spend taxpayer dollars on their staffs equally well.

Dodd's Senate and Barney Frank's 70 member House financial committee, and their hundreds of staff members continue to watch over their friends and contributors in the banking industry. Have any of these government paid people been laid off yet? Whatever the number, I'm sure it is equal to the number of banking lobbyists laid off so far!

I guess it may still take some time for people to catch on. There are already tent cities going up for the homeless. Right now we have the right to peacefully protest - we can carry signs until our hands blister, yell out until our vocal chords are sore and walk around in circles until our shoes wear out. We can even watch politicians on TV, who have every power to pass laws to stop this nonsense, complain to their generous friends in banking about screwing the public a little too much.

How long can this go on?

[rbowser-]

"... before an honest political leader may emerge from this catastrophe..."

Maybe you blinked, but he's been in office for about 60 days now. Give him time, he's doing the best anyone on Earth could do with the wreck the last 8 years have made of our country.

Randy

[kitekrazy]

"... before an honest political leader may emerge from this catastrophe..."

Maybe you blinked, but he's been in office for about 60 days now. Give him time, he's doing the best anyone on Earth could do with the wreck the last 8 years have made of our country.

Randy



There is no such thing as an honest political leader. Hopefully some will learn the current "messiah" will be no different. Hopefully you are not that naive.

[kitekrazy]

BTW, I had a credit card with a $20,000 limit from Bank of America and they dumped me for not using it. Is that going to hurt my credit rating?

I'm getting to the point of remaining debt free as much as possible. The problem with that is I get harassed my CC companies (especially Discover) for not having any debt.

[rbowser-]

There's no such thing as an honest politician, and all musicians are bums, and all dancers are gay, and every other cliche you've ever heard is also true.

False.

Sorry you're so cynical, kitekrazy, but the way it works is that politicians run the government, musicians make our music, and dancers perform the dances we watch - and they're all real people, not cliches.

That's OK - Cynicism is a natural reaction to the kind of black hearted "leadership" the country has suffered for far too long, maybe too long for us ever to recover from - time will tell.

But meanwhile, even cynics will reap the benefits of the good, humanistic leadership which we've finally embraced again.

In their hearts, I know no true American wants to subvert their own government. Not lending support to, and having hope in new leadership Does subvert the efforts of change that are blooming across the country, but if the negativistic cynics have to be dragged kicking and screaming back into a healthy, strong country, well then fine.

"...I'm getting to the point of remaining debt free as much as possible..."

Oh My! How un-American of you! - joke - Why are you worrying about your credit cards? To not live on illusionary plastic money is kind of one of the major lessons we should be learning right about now.

Peace,
Randy

[LFO]

Hey KiteKrazy,
Your credit rating will take a hit for a card that is closed. However, it is nothing to worry about? The impact will be minimal and the rules are changing around credit ratings are changing given the current (and future) economic status. If you have kept up on your payments then when you either a) purchase a car or b) apply for a mortgage it should all be good.

-Kevin

[LFO]

There's no such thing as an honest politician, and all musicians are bums, and all dancers are gay, and every other cliche you've ever heard is also true.

False.

Sorry you're so cynical, kitekrazy, but the way it works is that politicians run the government, musicians make our music, and dancers perform the dances we watch - and they're all real people, not cliches.

That's OK - Cynicism is a natural reaction to the kind of black hearted "leadership" the country has suffered for far too long, maybe too long for us ever to recover from - time will tell.

But meanwhile, even cynics will reap the benefits of the good, humanistic leadership which we've finally embraced again.

In their hearts, I know no true American wants to subvert their own government. Not lending support to, and having hope in new leadership Does subvert the efforts of change that are blooming across the country, but if the negativistic cynics have to be dragged kicking and screaming back into a healthy, strong country, well then fine.

"...I'm getting to the point of remaining debt free as much as possible..."

Oh My! How un-American of you! - joke - Why are you worrying about your credit cards? To not live on illusionary plastic money is kind of one of the major lessons we should be learning right about now.

Peace,
Randy

Ok, so I have to ask again because you didn't answer my question in the other thread when I asked you about the `miraculous changes sweeping the nation'. What efforts of change are blooming across the country? Again, I am truly interested to hear what your perspective is because I'm not really seeing it. Believe me, I wish I were!

I support Obama because he is my president. However, I really don't get the rock star or Messiah role that the media has forced on America and many have so eagerly taken up. Will he be able to do a good job? I hope so. However, Congress (a Democratic controlled congress I'll add) is his biggest obstacle. It has already proved it in the past seven weeks and will continue to do so. Can anyone say pork filled bailout plan? How about more money for AIG?

I really don't get why you use the anti-Republican rhetoric you do Randy. I get the passion, but I don't get the substance. There are as many fat cat Democrats as there are Republicans. Ever looked at the constituency for the rich north eastern states? (Connecticut, New York, Massachusetts) All are `blue' states and represent the biggest money in the country. Lets not forget to mention California and Florida.) It is an unfortunate fact that the vast majority of them don't give a flim-flam about the Average Joe. They care about #1, themselves. These people are no Gary Garritans, Republican or Democrat. :)

Just another quick thought. I think anti-Republican rants are exactly what Obama doesn't want people to do. He is trying to unify the parties and tone all that kind of stuff down. He might have a big frown on his face if he read all the party bashing going on. ;) I don't see how extreme comments can create harmony in any way. Obama is right, party affiliation needs to be dumped and thoroughly forgotten. We need to just become US citizens again. Unfortunately it is like trying to get a pig to sing. We all know how that turns out. :( The sad truth of it is, this is the one goal Obama has that I don't think he has a chance at achieving. Too bad, it is a worthy goal.

When I decided to become a libertarian it was a move to disassociate myself with either party. I'm pretty sure it did not change the world, but it did change my perspective. Now both parties annoy me equally. :D

-Kevin

[rbowser-]

"... like trying to get a pig to sing..."

I wouldn't have thought of so stark an image, but yeah, it can be something like that.

Randy

[rolifer]

I am a Libertarian with strong anarchist leanings.

Those that seek power rarely do so for the good of the people. Rather for the good of themselves.

George Washington is one of my heroes and yet he also sought out the power. He ultimately understood why power should not be instilled in one individual for too long, which is why he is my hero.

We are headed towards becoming a socialist republic which is a pity. But it also means that our government will just get bigger and bigger. Governments never create wealth. It just takes it away from those that have it and then spends it.

In time the government will become too large and there will be another revolution. That is just one of the lessons of history.

Fortunately, no one has (or has had) enough power in this country to screw it up by themselves. They always need help.

The only thing that scares me now is that Obama may have enough help in congress to screw up everything. Which is something Bush never had.

Ron

[rolifer]

All of them except for defense. I would shut down the rest of the government and stop the runaway spending.


I believe that George Washington would be appalled at the size of our government and would be the first to offer his services as General of the Army to abolish this wicked goverment that is neither of the people or for the people. This government has been and will continue to be for the few until the American people wake up and understand that big brother doesn't know best.


But I am late for bed now.

Ron

[rbowser-]

Good morning everyone on this thread.

I've vowed to myself before to avoid political references in my posts, but haven't always kept that promise. I take the vow again today. It's not worth it to me to post anything that ends up ruffling the feathers of any of my fellow Forum members.

Music, fellowship, humor, a helping hand when I'm able. That's all I want to contribute here, and that should keep me busy and productive.

Peace, LFO, Ron, Kitekrazy, Ern, and everyone.

Randy B.

[LFO]

Hey Randy,
At least in my case you've not ruffled a single feather so no apology necessary. :) Hopefully I've not ruffled yours. Actually I thought we were having a great conversation. When it comes to politics I think you learn more by hearing from the perspectives of others than anything else. Obama is a good example. When he started his campaign I dismissed him as a candidate pretty quickly because I did not think he had the experience to be president. It was only through listening to others that I re-opened my eyes and took a second look. Do I have the same opinion of him as you do? Obviously not, I'm more in a wait and see mode during which I will lend my support.

To me, this election has been fascinating. We have a president who is determined to do the impossible - the removal of partisan lines. Ironically, party lines seem to have become stronger than ever as passion and bitterness grow on each side.

Obama's rock star status is also interesting. It is the result of the perfect PR machine. They knew what image they wanted, they crafted it, they got major Hollywood and `Generation Y' buy-in and then watched the momentum grow. It was a steam roller! Obama did not have this rock star image when he was in Congress. His marketing people made him one. Genius. How could an old, white grumpy war veteran with a joke for a running mate beat that? The answer is simple, there was no possible way.

Additionally we have a government that thinks it can solve the nation's financial woes. It is kind of akin to asking a 3rd grader to do so. The only difference being that congress is so ego inflated that it thinks it has the know how to do it. :wow: Since when does a political appointment translate into an economist? I'm not slamming on the democrats with this, though it might look like it since they have been in control of congress, but I'm not. Republicans are just as guilty. And that's the point. *Both* sides are guilty of corruption, self-promoting pork and extremely poor economic decisions.

I wish wish wish that the cliche' of no such thing as an honest politician were not true. The fact of the matter is that it applies to the vast majority of our government. Republican or Democrat. I am hopeful that it does not apply to our president, but I need some time to watch and see.

I'm on 15 tangents, but I think if I put it out there people will comment on them and then we can have a discussion. I especially value discussions with people who's life experience has been so different than mine. It helps me understand where so many people are coming from that initially I totally don't get. So Randy, if you choose to not reply I understand you are sticking to your previous post and I respect that. However, if I can coax you into sharing some of your perspective it would be terrific. I asked some questions in my earlier post because I am genuinely interested, not because I am looking for a debate. :)

If we do not discuss topics in a healthy manner, then nothing is shared and nothing is learned. Who wants that?

-Kevin

[dominick]

if you were the modern day George Washington, which of these programs would you cut?

Food & Drug Safety
Highways & Bridges
Disaster & Emergencies
Student Loans
Unemployment Benefits
Defense
Museums
Prisons
NASA
Credit Fraud
Social Security
Internet Fraud
Offenders Nat'l Registry
Drinking Water Safety
Head Start
FBI
Children's Health Insurance
OSHA
CIA
Car Safety

These are just the tip of the iceberg which we take for granted.

For a complete list, go to:

http://www.usa.gov/

There are many more worthwhile programs that our tax dollars pay for.


Ern :|: :)
The problem is not the worthwhileness of these programs; as with our members of congress, there is no accountability by name. Congress didn't screw up our economic system - it was Barney Frank, Christopher Dodd and their other 70 Democratic and Republican committee member goof-offs that were responsible for watching over the regulation of our financial institutions.

Do you know the name of the former chairperson of the SEC? Was this person held responsible in any way for our financial mess? Do you know the name of the head of the FDA who also did nothing to stop a peanut businessman killing 9 people and costing an industry $1 billion in lost revenue, after being repeated warned of this impending problem. Not one of the administrators in these organizations has been, or probably can be, held criminally responsible for their screw-ups.

The sad fact of the matter is that we now have only one political party to vote for come the next election. It's called special interests, who have directed our congress to legalize bribery, which is why they give equally to both the Democrat and Republican parties. As members of congress become more content and assured that the public thinks they have a choice, they will continue to bloat federal agencies with more money and staff, regardless of their performance. Obama has stated there will be changes in this area - let's hope he keeps his word.

Boy, this is tiring - think I'll go back to my music for now.

[LFO]

The U.S. Government has a big task, which, with a clear mind and compassion, MUST do.

O.K., Ron, if you were the modern day George Washington, which of these programs would you cut?

Food & Drug Safety
Highways & Bridges
Disaster & Emergencies
Student Loans
Unemployment Benefits
Defense
Museums
Prisons
NASA
Credit Fraud
Social Security
Internet Fraud
Offenders Nat'l Registry
Drinking Water Safety
Head Start
FBI
Children's Health Insurance
OSHA
CIA
Car Safety

These are just the tip of the iceberg which we take for granted.

For a complete list, go to:

http://www.usa.gov/

There are many more worthwhile programs that our tax dollars pay for.

There are many that are not. It's up to voters to decide whom will make wise fiscal decisions.

Ern :|: :)

Hey Ern,
Maybe you are looking at this a bit too much in black and white terms. You don't have to cut a program, however you can reduce it's budget or privatize it. There is not one agency you listed that I would not consider a valid candidate for privatization with some government regulation.

Having worked with federal, state and local governments for over a decade, (I sell large scale computer systems) I've watched wasted government spending that boggles my mind. I've watched corruption, (Some get away with it, others don't. See the CIO of the State of Wisconsin for a good example of someone who doesn't.) overspending and blatant laziness waste millions and millions of dollars. The private sector is not perfect, but it is head and shoulders above what I typically see in a government agency.

I've included a recent breakdown of the stimulus bill and where the dollars are allocated. I think anyone can see that a significant amount of money is being spent in places that, especially given our current economy, it should not be. What should be cut back/eliminated/privatized is of course the fodder for huge debate. ;)

-Kevin

Source: The National Review

Stimulus Bill Spending Breakdown:

$50,000,000 for the National Endowment for the Arts

$380,000,000 in the Senate bill for the Women, Infants and Children program

$300,000,000 for grants to combat violence against women

$2,000,000,000 for federal child-care block grants

$6,000,000,000 for university building projects

$15,000,000,000 for boosting Pell Grant college scholarships

$4,000,000,000 for job-training programs, including $1,200,000,000 for "youths" up to the age of 24

$1,000,000,000 for community-development block grants

$4,200,000,000 for "neighborhood stabilization activities"

$650,000,000 for digital-TV coupons;

$90,000,000 to educate "vulnerable populations"

$15,000,000,000 for business-loss carry-backs

$145,000,000,000 for "Making Work Pay" tax credits

$83,000,000,000 for the earned income credit

$150,000,000 for the Smithsonian

$34,000,000 to renovate the Department of Commerce headquarters

$500,000,000 for improvement projects for National Institutes of Health facilities

$44,000,000 for repairs to Department of Agriculture headquarters

$350,000,000 for Agriculture Department computers

$88,000,000 to help move the Public Health Service into a new building

$448,000,000 for constructing a new Homeland Security Department headquarters

$600,000,000 to convert the federal auto fleet to hybrids

$450,000,000 for NASA (carve-out for "climate-research missions")

$600,000,000 for NOAA (carve-out for "climate modeling")

$1,000,000,000 for the Census Bureau

$89,000,000,000 for Medicaid

$30,000,000,000 for COBRA insurance extension

$36,000,000,000 for expanded unemployment benefits

$20,000,000,000 for food stamps

$4,500,000,000 for U.S. Army Corps of Engineers

$850,000,000 for Amtrak

$87,000,000 for a polar icebreaking ship

$1,700,000,000 for the National Park System

$55,000,000 for Historic Preservation Fund

$7,600,000,000 for "rural community advancement programs"

$150,000,000 for agricultural-commodity purchases

$150,000,000 for "producers of livestock, honeybees, and farm-raised fish"

$2,000,000,000 for renewable-energy research ($400,000,000 for global-warming research)

$2,000,000,000 for a "clean coal" power plant in Illinois

$6,200,000,000 for the Weatherization Assistance Program

$3,500,000,000 for energy-efficiency and conservation block grants

$3,400,000,000 for the State Energy Program

$200,000,000 for state and local electric-transport projects

$300,000,000 for energy-efficient-appliance rebate programs

$400,000,000 for hybrid cars for state and local governments

$1,000,000,000 for the manufacturing of advanced batteries

$1,500,000,000 for green-technology loan guarantees

$8,000,000,000 for innovative-technology loan-guarantee program

$2,400,000,000 for carbon-capture demonstration projects

$4,500,000,000 for electricity grid

$79,000,000,000 for State Fiscal Stabilization Fund

$585,336,000,000 Total

[rolifer]

Good morning everyone on this thread.

I've vowed to myself before to avoid political references in my posts, but haven't always kept that promise. I take the vow again today. It's not worth it to me to post anything that ends up ruffling the feathers of any of my fellow Forum members.

Music, fellowship, humor, a helping hand when I'm able. That's all I want to contribute here, and that should keep me busy and productive.

Peace, LFO, Ron, Kitekrazy, Ern, and everyone.

Randy B.

I couldn't agree more.

I also try to avoid politics, but it was late and I was tired and not watching what my fingers were doing.

Ron

[robh]

Well, maybe so, but to my way of thinking the difference between Democrats/Independents and Republicans/Libertarians IS pretty black and white.

There's a gray area in the center, but those on the right side basically just care about their own pocketbook. Those on the left side care about the Golden Rule, and the Great Commandment. Right = Money. Left = Compassion. Is that really a fair assessment? I would counter that many Republicans/Libertarians care about the Golden Rule and the Great Commandment, they just don't believe the government is the place to apply it. I'm surprised Ern, that after all the "discussions" here and in the basement with myself, or others, you have still failed to see that point of view?

How would it be if I assumed Democrats/Independents want the government to take care of the Golden Rule and the Great Commandment so that as individuals, they don't have to? Not a fair statement, is it? Believe me, I have been tempted to think exactly that, but I know better.

I have a theory on Ron's "cutbacks", but I'll wait and let him answer for himself.

Your "Just-Right of Centre" friend,:)

Rob

[robh]

And exactly how many right wing Republicans do you hang around long enough for you to make such a sweeping remark?

And how many Christians do you actually hang around for you to make such a sweeping remark?

I have an aunt and uncle who are Republican and Roman Catholic - based on your statement, they must go through such torment over the conflict of interest!!:D

I have no doubt there are hypocrites in the church, but most of the christians, if not all, that I hang with are doing the things you say they aren't.

Great, now we're on the topic of religion! Another taboo!:)

- - - -

I have a credit card which we pay off completely every month. We're the kind of customer Mastercard loathes!:)


Rob

[skallman]

Do you know what's the difference between Republicans and Democrats?

The spelling.

After watching the political process in this country for the last several decades, the only conclusion I can come to is that Republicans and Democrats might speak the party line when running for office, but when they get to Washington, they drop that silly pretense, and it's business as usual. (Sigh!)


There's a gray area in the center, but those on the right side basically just care about their own pocketbook. Those on the left side care about the Golden Rule, and the Great Commandment. Right = Money. Left = Compassion.Not entirely true, Ern. BOTH sides of the political spectrum are concerned about their pocketbooks (especially nowadays). It's just that the Right doesn't consider it inherently evil to be rich. (It's only evil if you acquire wealth through nefarious means that hurt other people.) Personally I know quite a lot of wealthy people who give quite generously in both their time and money to charities and other causes. And I know a lot of poor people who are as untrustworthy as Bernie Madoff. So, to characterize a certain economic class as always having a particular mindset does no one any good.

To give you an example of what I mean, Warren Buffet is considered by some to be the wealthiest man in America. In 2007, he made over 10 BILLION dollars from his investments. Yet, he knows the personal value of sharing his wealth with others. As a result, he gave away 85% of his earnings $8.5 billion) to charity. How many people do you know can give away 85% of their income and still support their families? Not me, and I dare say not many other people can either.

So don't go hammering on rich people until you walk a mile in their shoes. (Or is it ride a mile in their limosines? I forget. ;))

BTW: to keep things in perspective, 2008 was a "bad" year for Warren Buffet along with everyone else: he ONLY made 4.5 BILLION dollars. Rats!!

Steve

[LFO]

Hey Rob,

Listen, I understand that point of view. The problem is, private, faith-based initiatives to help the whole, enormous amount of people in America (who are not rich) just does NOT work. Why? Because Christians talk a good line about this, but apparently don't follow through, except maybe for Catholics who are extremely humanitarian in their approach to religion (like Unitarian/Universalists like me :p ). Most right-wing Republicans talk about "family values" and helping the poor etc., yet most just DON'T. It's all rhetoric, and selfishness to boot. What these folks REALLY care about are themselves, and their bank accounts. It's really annoying to me, as a humanitarian. --- Do you SINCERELY believe that MOST of these people who espouse that they follow the teachings of Christ, and believe in the Golden Rule, actually follow through in their daily lives, or through their churches? 'I' sure don't. --- A bunch of hypocrites of the worst kind, hiding behind their religion to continue to be selfish, money-loving shells of what Jesus would want them to be.

To sum it up: The government, though not perfect, CAN help the disadvantaged and the poor, as Jesus would have done. The private sector, i.e. "faith based" groups, can NOT provide help to all the starving children in America, or other worthwhile causes, just because they are at the very best disorganized, and at the very worst, hypocrites of the worst kind.

I hope this explains my position on this topic! :)

Ern :|:

Wow. Ern, I am surprised that someone could write that and be serious. Really?

Some of the best people I know are Republican and go to church every Sunday. They give of their substance and of their hearts. Guess what? I can say the same thing for some Democrats.

I'm sure that what you are saying is based on your life experiences and thus you have this perspective. Let me assure you it does not apply across the board.

You show me one organization and I'll show you people in it who fit on each side of the coin.

The cliche' of all religious people being hypocrites is sooooo played out. Just like the cliche' of gay people all being perverts is.

I would hope you would try to broaden your horizons and see that there is more to people on both sides.

Regarding the government helping the poor just as Jesus would have done...
I cannot think of a single government in the history of the world that has done this. Can anyone name one? Given the greed and corruption in our congress this is not going to happen in the USA for the foreseeable future. To think otherwise is just....foolish. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it is the truth. I don't doubt Obama has his heart in the right place, but he has congress to deal with and we all know for a certainty all they care about is themselves. Hence the pork, the continual yearly salary increases, etc. Our congress needs an enigma! :D Look at the headlines today. Obama had to pass a plan that is laden with pork. He isn't happy with it, but he knows it is a battle he can't win so he went ahead and signed it. Was it just Republicans that stuffed this bill with self-serving agendas?

So, it is up to us, the individuals to do good and care for the poor. I'll give you an example. A friend of the family, Becky, who is not only a Republican but a *Mormon* (gasp!) started a grassroots charity for children in India about 8 years ago. Since then http://www.risingstaroutreach.org has grown drastically and has literally not only changed lives but saved lives. Thousands of lives. She gave up being a first violin for the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra to do this. Why? Because she wanted to make a difference. And she has, time and time again.

So let's ease up on the false generalizations. You paint people black who do not deserve it and have done more for others than most. It is a great disservice.

-Kevin

[LFO]

Good points, Rob & Steve! I'm NOT against the wealthy whom have earned it by using the American capitalistic system. Good for them! But, ya gotta give back. Buffet is a Democrat, as are the Kennedy family, and many others such as my wife's boss (my favorite "rich man") who are all Multi-Millionaires. They give back to the community, and are loyal public servants. My wife's boss cares enough to forgo his own wealth to provide housing for the poor. They CARE about others, not just their own wealth.

Could any of you name a Multi-Millionaire/Billionaire who is a right-wing Republican, like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, who really CARE about the poor and the homeless through their financial contributions? Anyone? If y'all can name a few, maybe I'll reconsider my position. Donald Trump? The Bush family? Anyone?

Best Regards,

Ern :|: :)

Bill Gates. He funded John McCain and his charitable contributions are *huge*. If you are not familiar with the Bill Gates Foundation you should read up on it.

Harvey Najim. He is the president of my company. He gave $240 million dollars to charities (mostly in Texas) last year.

Why do I think the only two Republicans you know are Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh? ;)

-Kevin

P.S. How can I forget Truett Cathy? The founder of Chick-Fil-A has over $100 million of charitable contributions since the company was founded. (Around 1970 or so I think.) Not only that, he makes the best chicken sandwich around. ;)

[rolifer]

Two quick things that are not really taking sides or being overtly political.

If the government shut down today, no one in this country would starve to death. We the people would make sure of that.


I am a full time student and as such made less than $5000 last year.

Between the State and Federal tax increases, I paid $600 more last year in taxes than I did the year before.

[robh]

Could any of you name a Multi-Millionaire/Billionaire who is a right-wing Republican, like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, who really CARE about the poor and the homeless through their financial contributions? Anyone? If y'all can name a few, maybe I'll reconsider my position. Donald Trump? The Bush family? Anyone?

Best Regards,

Ern :|: :) How do you know these guys aren't giving to charity? Outside of the TV/Radio, do you really know what they do with their time and money?

Rob

[EricWatkins]

Yeah, I dont like Limaugh or Hannity but to say that they dont give back is probably just not true. I'm pretty sure they attach themselves to many charitable events. Dont get me wrong, I'd rather take thumb screws than listen to either one but I'm pretty sure I've heard of their charitable sides.

[LFO]

Of course there are people like that, Ern. Tons of them. I always thought the movie `O Brother Where Are Thou?' demonstrated this in a genius manner. Do you really think that your town was somehow an unusual experience? For every Republican town like that you name I'll show you one that is exactly the same only Democrat. I lived in Georgia for over 15 years and saw plenty of racism, especially in Alabama. But the worst racism I've seen wasn't there, it was in California. Seal Beach and Huntington Beach in the late 1980s. Disgusting behavior.

I'm in Connecticut for business a great deal. My manager lives in Old Greenwich. I can't believe the social splits there, the way the rich disparage the poor and how minorities are treated. It is mind boggling. I took my wife there once when I went there for business. My wife is half Mexican. (Born and raised in the Bay Area, 3rd generation in the USA.) She was treated like a pariah. Again, just mind-blowing. She will *never* go there again. The last time I checked that area was full of white, rich Democrats. Should I now say that all Democrats hate Mexicans? Of course not. But this is what you are doing, painting broad strokes that are unreasonable.

Do you really think the Kennedy family cares about anything outside of the Kennedy family? Really?

It seems like you are dead set to focus only on the bad and completely ignore the good. Your reply above where you completely ignored what I had to say about Republicans and Christians who do good speaks volumes. It is as if you do not want to acknowledge that there can be good people from the religious / republican side. It isn't healthy.

No matter what your experience, there is good from the religious and republican side. The sky is blue no matter how loud you scream it is green. You asked for millionaire republicans that donate to charity, I gave you three solid answers. You tried to disprove one and ignored the other two. How are we supposed to have a constructive conversation with that kind of behavior?

-Kevin

[robh]

Huh? :confused: I never said that comical blowhards like Limbaugh and Hannity don't give money to charity. Where did I say that? I didn't.

Ern :rolleyes:

Well, I got that from this:
Could any of you name a Multi-Millionaire/Billionaire who is a right-wing Republican, like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, who really CARE about the poor and the homeless through their financial contributions? I interpreted this to mean you assumed they didn't care nor contribute - most of your posts about Republicans so far have been in the negative, so it wasn't that big a stretch for me to interpret it this way.

Sorry.

Rob

[PaulR]

Could any of you name a Multi-Millionaire/Billionaire who is a right-wing Republican, like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, who really CARE about the poor and the homeless through their financial contributions? AErn :|: :)

Marie Antoinette?