new demo's of PMI's GRANDIOSO Steinway [Archive]

Michiel Post

01-09-2002, 04:40 AM

We justed posted some new material on the new website. Visit www.postmusicalinstruments.com (\"http://www.postmusicalinstruments.com\") and follow the link (to demo) under the piano icon. There is info on the cd library on the site also.

Alternatively click here: http://www.postmusicalinstruments.com/demo/grandioso.MP3 (\"http://www.postmusicalinstruments.com/demo/grandioso.MP3\") http://www.postmusicalinstruments.com/demo/liebestod.MP3 (\"http://www.postmusicalinstruments.com/demo/liebestod.MP3\") http://www.postmusicalinstruments.com/demo/borodin.MP3 (\"http://www.postmusicalinstruments.com/demo/borodin.MP3\") http://www.postmusicalinstruments.com/demo/purgatory.MP3 (\"http://www.postmusicalinstruments.com/demo/purgatory.MP3\")

Michiel Post

sjduck

01-09-2002, 01:21 PM

I\'ve just visited the site and the product appears to have been extremely well thought through.

One question about the demos - is it my naff old laptop sound card, or is there a fair amount of variable hiss during the \'liebestod\' demo? And why 128k encoding? When you\'re auditioning sound quality, surely it makes sense to go for at least 192 or 256?

Has any price been set yet?

Steve

Michiel Post

01-09-2002, 01:39 PM

Hi Steve,
I forgot to mention this demo is made with the beta version which still has an occasional noisy sample. This will be fixed in the final release! Don\'t worry. The guy doing the de-noising with SonicSolutions No-Noise is having a very busy time and my job is next in line.
The decoding was an unlucky coincidence. The other demo\'s did get a higher encoding rate simply because of the availability of different programs at the time of working. I\'ll see if I can get them re-done (don\'t expect this to happen too soon though). We\'re actually working on a demo-cd with really amazing pieces of music with different players. One of the pieces is Steve Reich Music for two piano\'s. One of these pieces a concert pianist can only practice with another pianist or a decent sampled piano running a sequence. The latter will be done with the two main piano\'s from my new library.
Anyway, hope you have enjoyed the music despite the noise.

sjduck

01-09-2002, 04:12 PM

Michiel,

thank you for setting the record straight on that one. I must say, your demos are refreshingly lengthy and well played.

You may not wish to comment on this one, but any advice would be appreciated:

I intend to buy your new GigaSample for use live in a (light/acoustic) modern jazz trio context. My question: What amplification would you recommend pairing up with your GigaSample? A high powered hifi amp and speaker combination (e.g. Nad & Jamo), nearfield studio monitors (HHB Circle), small band PA system or keyboard combo amps.

I would really appreciate your input on this one as I believe that poor amplification hides all the hard work developers like you put into their piano GigaSamples.

All the best,
Stephen.

john g

01-09-2002, 11:38 PM

Well, these demos sound very promising. I particularly like the Chopin. The piano has something closer to the lively, even dirty and real sound of the Steinway. A little more of the \"impact\" sound of the hammers, which sound is absent from the main contender (Truan\'s Steinway B). Of course, the Truan product has a beautiful tone (once filtered particularly at the high end), but is too clean, and the velocity levels do not meld at all, which I suppose is the biggest issue with that venerable sample. I\'m A/Bing the mp3 through my sblive sound card with an extremely well-recorded Bach WTC piano album. The latter sounds much clearer and more transparent, but obviously because it is NOT a) being heard via sblive and b) is not an mp3 file. However, notwithstanding the unequal playing field, the pianos sound equally \"real\" to me.

Of course, I\'m ordering this sample when it becomes available. And I will use it extensively at my mp3.com Well-tempered Clavier site. One can never be sure whether a sample is useful until it is applied to one\'s particular purpose. Having said that, I\'m very hopeful that this sample will be an advance on the best now available. Certainly the demos outperform everything else out there in the senses mentioned above.

J.G.

Michiel Post

01-10-2002, 03:21 AM

Thanx John! I see that as a huge compliment!

I\'m still adding new features to the library, some of which will be amazing. We\'ve solved the sostenuto pedal as I posted sometime ago. We\'re looking at a solution for the true sustain pedal behavior. I can\'t say much more right now but the specs will become quite special!

Neglector

01-10-2002, 08:29 AM

Michiel,
what program of the Grandioso Piano did you use for the demos?

ciao

john g

01-10-2002, 12:12 PM

I\'m trying at this moment to get info from the Post URL. Unfortunately, the way it loads I can\'t scroll down to get all the info on the Steinway sample. May I just ask whether all the notes are sampled? And is it available separately, or will the program be part of a larger (more expensive) package?

J.G.

01-10-2002, 12:22 PM

The demos sound terrific. I\'m still looking for a piano. I want it for \'live\' playing, and I\'m not going to purchase a whole assortment of pianos (boy, are we spoiled for sampled pianos).

Now to the \'dirty\' part: Bardstown has just announced $199 for their new Bosey, so I won\'t even be listening to the demo (if I fell in love with it, it would hurt too much); so, how much is your new offering?

I can get the wonderful (at least it sounds wonderful to me) Malmsjo for $100. I\'m not so sure that I want such a \'bold\' sample as yours (it really sounds great but the sweet sound of the Malmsjo beckons) but if I can find out that it\'s out of my budget, at least it takes me closer to a decision.

Please make it easy for me; charge $200; if you charge $100, I\'ll spend the next month listening to demos instead of playing a piano (on my trusty Ztar).

Nice touch with all the options though; I\'m sure it will sell like hot cakes. Well done.

By the way, your website is is a tad \'jumpy\'. Any chance of just getting it to navigate normally? - every time I click, I get plumped into a non-navigable page.

Michiel Post

01-10-2002, 12:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sjduck:
Michiel,
You may not wish to comment on this one, but any advice would be appreciated:
I intend to buy your new GigaSample for use live in a (light/acoustic) modern jazz trio context. My question: What amplification would you recommend pairing up with your GigaSample? Stephen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Stephen,
I used to have active monitors, probably the most popular biamplified nearfield in use, the Genelec 1031A List price Approx $4200/pr Web site http://www.genelec.com (\"http://www.genelec.com\")
Nowdays I\'m using Dynaudio AIR systems in surround setup. http://www.dynaudioacoustics.dk/ (\"http://www.dynaudioacoustics.dk/\")

Michiel Post

01-10-2002, 12:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Neglector:
Michiel,
what program of the Grandioso Piano did you use for the demos?

ciao<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These demo\'s are all done with the main program. \"Classic\"

Michiel Post

01-10-2002, 12:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by john g:
I\'m trying at this moment to get info from the Post URL. Unfortunately, the way it loads I can\'t scroll down to get all the info on the Steinway sample.

May I just ask whether all the notes are sampled? And is it available separately, or will the program be part of a larger (more expensive) package?

J.G.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately the website will have to be updated. Don\'t know when.

All notes were sampled (minus a few with artifacts, specially above G7) and we\'re still struggling with price and package. The whole library is >5 GB. We may release a \"cheap and thin\" version.

[This message has been edited by Michiel Post (edited 01-10-2002).]

Munsie

01-10-2002, 01:02 PM

\"Please make it easy for me; charge $200; if you charge $100, I\'ll spend the next month listening to demos instead of playing a piano..\"

Shouldn\'t that be:

\"Please make it easy for me; charge ->$100<-; if you charge ->$200<-, I\'ll spend the next month listening to demos instead of playing a piano..\" ? ? ? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

01-10-2002, 01:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Michiel Post:
Hi Stephen,
I used to have active monitors, probably the most popular biamplified nearfield in use, the Genelec 1031A List price Approx $4200/pr Web site http://www.genelec.com (\"http://www.genelec.com\")
Nowdays I\'m using Dynaudio AIR systems in surround setup. http://www.dynaudioacoustics.dk/ (\"http://www.dynaudioacoustics.dk/\")

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this price is a problem, you might want to look at the Videologic Sirocco Pros from: www.videologic.co.uk (\"http://www.videologic.co.uk\")

This company was built on graphics chips, but it\'s made a big splash in Europe by providing studio quality gear at \'computer industry prices\'. They\'ve won a lot of awards in Europe and are worth a look at $900.

I have the cheapo $250 siroccos and I doubt that anything comes close for the price (I\'ve seen a lot of reviews where they say you\'d have to pay 4-5 times as much to get the same from a traditional \'audio\' company).

Anyway, worth a look if price is an issue (which it always is with me).

01-10-2002, 01:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Munsie:
\"Please make it easy for me; charge $200; if you charge $100, I\'ll spend the next month listening to demos instead of playing a piano..\"

Shouldn\'t that be:

\"Please make it easy for me; charge ->$100<-; if you charge ->$200<-, I\'ll spend the next month listening to demos instead of playing a piano..\" ? ? ? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, Munsie. If he charges $200 I\'ll buy the Malmsjo. If he charges $100, then I won\'t be able to decide what to buy :-)

Simon Ravn

01-10-2002, 02:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Michiel Post:
Hi Stephen,
I used to have active monitors, probably the most popular biamplified nearfield in use, the Genelec 1031A List price Approx $4200/pr

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A pair of 1031A is not $4200, more like $2000....

john g

01-10-2002, 02:09 PM

Now that we\'re off the terra ferma of the Post sample and talking about monitors, what say you to the Mackie HR monitors or, better, the ProAc Response 1 SC (they\'re not powered)? How do the Siroccos (SP?) stack up against them?

JG

PS the MAG piano is a COMPLETELY different instrument and sound. Not at all like an \"alternative\" to the Post Steinway.

[This message has been edited by john g (edited 01-10-2002).]

01-10-2002, 02:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by john g:

PS the MAG piano is a COMPLETELY different instrument and sound. Not at all like an \"alternative\" to the Post Steinway.

[This message has been edited by john g (edited 01-10-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I know. That\'s why it\'s a difficult decision. The MAG (on demos) sounds to me like an old, warm recording.

I\'d like to have both, but I can\'t right now. My controller (until some upgrades become available, and maybe even then it won\'t be sorted) tends to be difficult to play \'quietly\' (if I\'m using a full midi range) so the MAG provides the possibility of receiving strong velocities without necessarily sounding like I\'m jumping on the keys (it\'s a Ztar, so it\'s kind of hard to control velocity).

Even if the new \'Post\' is the same price, I\'m worried about not being able to \'tame\' it the way a keyboard player with a decent controller could (although it would be fun to stomp out Bach on a guitar-type thingy and sound like a pianist with \'Schwarzaneger\' fingers.

01-10-2002, 02:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by john g:
Now that we\'re off the terra ferma of the Post sample and talking about monitors, what say you to the Mackie HR monitors or, better, the ProAc Response 1 SC (they\'re not powered)? How do the Siroccos (SP?) stack up against them?

JG

[This message has been edited by john g (edited 01-10-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can only go on reviews (on the SRs). I did a huge amount of research a while back (that\'s how I found out about the Sirocco Pros).

If money is no object, you\'d want to stick with the big names, but the Sirocco Pros have received almost universal aclaim. Sound on Sound said though that you might not want to use them from mixing your \'next album\'.

Another advantage is that they have a nifty DA converter so you can keep the signal digital.

For playing in small clubs/cafes they might be ideal though. They\'d certainly capture the nuances in most samples without breaking the bank (and you might not want to \'risk\' $4,000 worth of speakers in such situations). In the UK (not the US) they also do a 2.1 version which is very cheap and I\'m sure (as long as you don\'t have fill a large space) they would be better than a lot of \'dedicated\' keyboard amps (but underpowered for a lot of spaces).

I think videologic\'s philosophy of taking computer industry paradigms into the high-quality audio market is spot on (although I just checked their website and they\'re doing a $4,000 5.1 home theater system, so maybe they\'ve taken the attitude that in the hi-fi market customers often \'have to\' pay a lot to \'believe\'.

Jake Johnson

01-10-2002, 08:20 PM

Very nice samples and very nice playing. Would it be possible to post an MPG of a slow blues or jazz piece that lets us hear the overtones in the middle octaves?

Thanks

Michiel Post

01-11-2002, 01:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
A pair of 1031A is not $4200, more like $2000....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahum, I mixed up the 2 and 4, right?
Sorry.

I do like the Genelec sound and it\'s more or less industry standard so you don\'t have big surprises when using it for mastering and mixes.
The AIR system has a better sound IMO and accepts digital input. Plus the benefit of a good remote control for the whole setup.

Michiel Post

01-11-2002, 01:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by john g:
PS the MAG piano is a COMPLETELY different instrument and sound. Not at all like an \"alternative\" to the Post Steinway.
[This message has been edited by john g (edited 01-10-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi John,
Personally I think of each existing piano library as totally different instruments that don\'t compare at all. Each instrument has its own character and sound. I\'d like to have choices when using samples. Comparing piano samples is a bit like comparing real grand piano\'s: very confusing. I try to see each piano sample as another colour in the pallet of the user. Try not to see all library developers as competitors. We\'re all loving the sample sets we make and they all sound different.
Michiel

Michiel Post

01-11-2002, 01:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Z6:

Even if the new \'Post\' is the same price, I\'m worried about not being able to \'tame\' it the way a keyboard player with a decent controller could (although it would be fun to stomp out Bach on a guitar-type thingy and sound like a pianist with \'Schwarzaneger\' fingers.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The final version of our new library will have a \"soft\" articulation. This will be exactly what you need; you hear the PPP-PP-P and MF samples only, no matter how loud you play. I\'m also including a \"loud\" articulation, one that sounds like your living on anabolic steroids and hammer the keys with cruelty even when just playing very gently...
Michiel

Michiel Post

01-11-2002, 01:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jake Johnson:
Very nice samples and very nice playing. Would it be possible to post an MPG of a slow blues or jazz piece that lets us hear the overtones in the middle octaves?

Thanks<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Jake,
If you send us a midi file that we may publish on the website, I\'ll render it even before Next week, when we\'re leaving for NAMM.
Michiel Post

JoE

01-11-2002, 02:23 AM

Hi Michiel,
I really love your demos! Have you decided on the release date yet? And do you have a rough estimate on the pricing? Oh, and here\'s another question. I wasn\'t able to find out where you\'re located. The reason I\'m asking that is the big import tax I have to pay when ordering from outside the EU.

Best regards,
Jens.

Michiel Post

01-11-2002, 03:51 AM

Hi Jens,

Release date is not fixed nor is the price. Distribution will be handled by TASCAM, so no import issues to fear there.
Michiel Post

john g

01-13-2002, 06:52 PM

The final version of our new library will have a \"soft\" articulation. This will be exactly what you need; you hear the PPP-PP-P and MF samples only, no matter how loud you play. I\'m also including a \"loud\" articulation, one that sounds like your living on anabolic steroids and hammer the keys with cruelty even when just playing very gently.

Niave question, maybe, but is it possible to get ppp to ff, and the layers in between, in one sample?

J.G.

JoE

01-14-2002, 12:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Michiel Post:
The final version of our new library will have a \"soft\" articulation. This will be exactly what you need; you hear the PPP-PP-P and MF samples only, no matter how loud you play. I\'m also including a \"loud\" articulation, one that sounds like your living on anabolic steroids and hammer the keys with cruelty even when just playing very gently...
Michiel
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In my opinion it would be of great value to have an articulation for the PP-MF range that you need for many classical pieces. What I mean is the \'usual\' range, but slightly shifted to the soft side.

Michiel Post

01-14-2002, 03:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by john g:
Niave question, maybe, but is it possible to get ppp to ff, and the layers in between, in one sample?

J.G.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi John,
It responds to 16 different nuances:
PPPP,PPP(2x),PP(2x),P(2x),MF(3x),F(2x),FF(2x),FFF( 2x) in one program. The double responds means the same sample is used in twice within that range with different filter settings (once unfiltered and once with a low pass filter) to get smooth response.

Michiel Post

01-14-2002, 03:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by JoE:
In my opinion it would be of great value to have an articulation for the PP-MF range that you need for many classical pieces. What I mean is the \'usual\' range, but slightly shifted to the soft side.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I\'ll take that into consideration.

Neglector

01-14-2002, 08:00 AM

Michiel,
do we get the 16 nuances for both Up- and Downpedal Samples in one program?

Michiel Post

01-14-2002, 08:24 AM

No, the current architecture of GS gives us 32 dimensions: when stereo uses up the first 2, we\'re left with 16 for velocity splits.
The 16 layer uses the pedal down samples only. Theses samples give a very rich context. Listen to MAG for comparison. MAG uses sustain pedal down samples only.
The sustain pedal behaves as a hold pedal only in this case.
The other programs (8 layers with sustain & 8 layers with release layer) give what the names indicates; 8 levels of velocity for sustain pedal up and pedal down and then 8 levels of velocity with pedal down samples only plus the release samples.
There is a way to overcome this: I\'ll include a seperate release sample only gig-file. When you couple two midi ports and assign the 16 level program to one port and the release gig to the other you can have 16 levels of velocity with release samples.

To achieve 16 levels of velocity for both pedal up AND pedal down samples I\'ll have to use an extra plug-in or somethig like Maestro Tools. I am currently testing how to use this technique in the library.
Integration of Maestro-like tools is as good as certain but is still under development.
Another way to get 16 levels of both sustain pedal up and pedal down samples is to make two extra programs with both 16 levels, one with pedal down only and one with pedal up only. And then have the user crossfade between the two programs using the sustain pedal (or re-route the sustain pedal to the mod weel control data). To be continued.

[This message has been edited by Michiel Post (edited 01-14-2002).]

Jeff Hurchalla

01-14-2002, 08:48 AM

I wanted to add to Michiel\'s last post. If we included an extra program, it would be based on the Maestro program included in Garritan Orchestral Strings to provide extra features to GOS, but the name will be different since MaestroTools is trademarked for GOS. We\'ll have to get a new working \"code name\" http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Jeff Hurchalla (edited 01-14-2002).]