Beginner has problem with Advanced Orchestra

[delneroni]

I am a first time user of Gigastudio. I purchased the Garritan Orchestral Strings and the Siedlaczek Advanced Orchestra to use with it. No problem with the Garritan Strings, but I have a problem with the AO. I enter my compositions into Finale, my notation sequencer, and play them back through Gigastudio (I am not a keyboard performer, although I use the keyboard to type in notes sometimes). With many AO instruments whose normal range extends into the bass clef (bassoon, cello, trombone, etc.), when I write a middle C, it plays a C an octave below middle C (some may be two octaves below). Likewise, when I play a middle C on the Gigastudio virtual keyboard, it sounds a note an octave lower. Apparently, the samples are shifted up an octave to allow them to use the lower keys on the keyboard as control keys to evoke different effects. This may be ok for a keyboard user, but for me the playback is wrong. If I write the part an octave higher then I get the correct pitches, but the score is then incorrect and I can not give it to a live musician.

Is there a way to fix this problem? Every other synthesizer/sampler I have ever used placed the instruments in the correct range for that instrument (in fact I rely on this to tell me what the effective range of the instrument is). The GOS package, for instance, puts each instrument into its correct range. I tried going into the instrument editor and shifting the range down one octave, but that only resulted in mud and I had to reload the instrument from the distribution CD.

I can\'t imagine that there is not a way to deal with this, hopefully not too technically difficult since I don\'t know much yet about editing and modifying sound samples. Any help or advice will be greatly appreciated.

[Beckers]

I simply transpose the whole entry in the MIDI channel playing these transposed instruments in my sequencer.

[Aaron Symonds]

I don\'t know if this is the quickest or most efficient way but it works for me. Make sure you have the instrument you want to edit selected in the top left window of GigaEditor. In the top right window select all the regions so that they turn yellow. Click and drag them down an octave. Then while the regions are still selected, right click and choose transpose. Type in 12 in the \"half steps\" box and click ok.

This is from memory as I\'m not sitting in my studio, but it should work.

[notemover]

hi delneroni,
It looks like to me transposing the line in finale is your best choice. I had the roland orchestral cards and they made the same mistake on half of the instruments.
How does GOS respond to Finale? I am an expert finale user and I am just about to buy samples and build a gigastudio. I am reconsidering buying AO now. I am not going to spend that lind of money on samples and have them not get their transpositions right. That\'s absurd.

[delneroni]

Aaron:

Thanks for your reply. I tried your method and it worked. However, in most cases I had to move the instrument range over the keys that had been reserved for control functions, with the result that the control functions no longer work. That means that I can not access most of the effects on the different instruments, like pizzicato, trill, etc., on strings, and so on. Which renders the package useless as far as I am concerned.

I think I am going to ask for a refund. This package is definitely not one that I can use.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron Symonds:
I don\'t know if this is the quickest or most efficient way but it works for me. Make sure you have the instrument you want to edit selected in the top left window of GigaEditor. In the top right window select all the regions so that they turn yellow. Click and drag them down an octave. Then while the regions are still selected, right click and choose transpose. Type in 12 in the \"half steps\" box and click ok.

This is from memory as I\'m not sitting in my studio, but it should work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Beckers]

[Bill]

You can also change the dimension controller from Key control to some other cc.

BTW, It’s not possible to return sample libraries for a refund.

[delneroni]

Thanks to all who have replied to my query. All very helpful. To summarize, there are apparently two approaches to dealing with this problem. One is that you can transpose the instrument range within Finale by using the staff tool. There are two disadvantages to this: 1. you have to do it every time you set up a new score and 2. if you transpose into the range of the control notes (unavoidable), every time you write one of those notes it changes the instrument \"patch\" that plays on playback.

The second approach is to use the gigastudio instrument editor to permanently change the instrument setup. You can move the control keys to an area where they are less likely to be a problem (to the top of the keyboard maybe? I\'m not sure about this yet) and then you can permanently transpose the instrument range to the octave that is correct for that instrument so that you can write the notes in Finale as you would for a live player. This is a lot of work up front but once it is done, you can forget about it. This is the route I will take, because there are a lot of good sounds in this package and I would like to be able to use it.

The only thing I have not figured out yet is how to invoke the control keys (keydimension keys) from Finale. How do you create a \'note on\' event without actually writing a note in the score? I know how to do patch changes, but that is not how you do it with this package. Again, someone who knows Finale better than I do may be able to help here.

To anybody else considering this package, it is a good buy for the money, but be prepared to do some work up front to get it working correctly.

[Beckers]

That\'s one way.

Here\'s the other: if you transpose the notes in the sequencer you will move them further away from the keyswitch notes (i.e. in the opposite direction to the transposition required in the instrument editor). I tend to transpose the whole channel when finished, -then transpose back any keyswitch notes.

I find it convenient to use notes in the sequencer to switch articulations: they are easily seen and moved/altered as necessary without having to switch screens. I keep up a seperate copy of the score to print, if necessary.

Martin Beckers

[Bill]

Using keys as the dimension control is only useful for live keyboard playing. If you enter notes in step time in Finale, it has no value; only all the problems that you\'ve described.

I use Finale also, here\'s what I do:

Edit the instruments so that they fall in their correct keyboard range.

Change the dimension controller to cc16.

In Finale, create a series of non-printing score articulations for each of the cc16 values you need to send. I use the letter \'A\' (for articulation) followed by 0, 8, 16, etc. I keep a chart of all the controller values vs articulations. Thus, I only need one set of articulations expression. A16 may mean something different in different instruments (AO, Dan Dean, X-Sample), but I keep track of that separately in the chart.

Editing the instruments does not take long, only a couple of minutes each.

Works for me...

[delneroni]

Bill:

This sound interesting, but it is a little over my head at this point. I don\'t know what a \'cc16\' is...or how to set a \'dimension controller\'. As far as controller commands from Finale, I normally create expressions for this, with the name of the instrument and/or articulation, then set the controller number and value in the midi playback portion of the expression screen.

Can you explain in a little more detail?

Del


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill:
Using keys as the dimension control is only useful for live keyboard playing. If you enter notes in step time in Finale, it has no value; only all the problems that you\'ve described.

I use Finale also, here\'s what I do:

Edit the instruments so that they fall in their correct keyboard range.

Change the dimension controller to cc16.

In Finale, create a series of non-printing score articulations for each of the cc16 values you need to send. I use the letter \'A\' (for articulation) followed by 0, 8, 16, etc. I keep a chart of all the controller values vs articulations. Thus, I only need one set of articulations expression. A16 may mean something different in different instruments (AO, Dan Dean, X-Sample), but I keep track of that separately in the chart.

Editing the instruments does not take long, only a couple of minutes each.

Works for me...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Bill]

Changing the dimension controller means that you modify the instrument so that it responds to a different Continuos Controller (cc), instead of the low keys on your keyboard. You\'re probably familiar with some of the cc\'s already. cc7 is volume; cc1 is the MOD wheel, cc11 is expression, etc. cc16 is just an available \"channel\" to send messages to GSt for the purpose of changing articulations.

[Beckers]

Bill,

OA has useful p-f crossfades. Can I get Gst to accept CC11 (Expression) as attenuation controller for the Xfades? I have (unfortunately) used only CC11 for expression and dynamics in my sequencer files. I note CC11 is not on the menu, and I have never received any replies to this question from Nemesys.

Delneroni,

From experience (with much hair loss) it is easy to get lost in the Instr Editor. If you want to use CC16 (=General Purpose 1) to select different articulations: 1. Load your AO .gig file into the editor, e.g. Viola. 2. Select the instrument you want to edit in the left hand window e.g. Viola Basic Key. 3. Highlight all the notes in the right hand window, turning them yellow and transpose down as you did before. 4. Click on the box just below this, marked \"keyboard\", ie the top dimension controller. 5. Click on the arrow in the control source box to bring up the controller menu. 6. Select (16)General Purpose 1 and OK. 7. The value range for CC16 is automatically split into 16 sections, with each section linking to one of the 16 articulations in the instrument file. If you click on each of the 16 little boxes in the top control source box you will see the value range it corresponds to in the bottom margin of the editor. You will see the articulation this CC16 value selects in the green velocity map box in small abbreviated letters. Write a list of each CC16 value range (0-7, 8-15 etc) against its corresponding articulation. In order to trigger a particular articulation at any point in your sequencer enter a value for CC16 within the relevant range. 7. Save your instrument (\"save as..\" if you\'re not committed) You might now need to do the same to all libraries which use keyswiches, eg Dan Dean, Xsample, GOS, even if they don\'t need transposing, else you \'ll go crazy. (Or simply transpose up in the sequencer)

[Bill]

> I get Gst to accept CC11 as attenuation controller for the Xfades?

As far as I know, you can only use the controller listed in the dropdown box.

[delneroni]

I hope you don\'t mind if I bother you with another question on this. I tried exactly what you recommended here, and it worked up to a point, but I still had two problems I
don\'t know how to solve:
1. After I saved the instrument, I created a little test score in Finale in which I attempted to change the articulation of the French Horn section to staccato by using a text expression with the playback section set to controller 16 and the correct value for staccato based on what I saw in the instrument editor. Well, it change to staccato alright, but only for one note. The notes after that continued to play legato. I assumed that after I sent over the controller change to the new value that it would remain in force until I changed it again, but it did not. I can\'t be issuing a controller change for each individual note. What did I do wrong here?
2. Using French Horn section again as an example, when I click on the various keydimensions to see what sound is in each one, and what value it has, only the first four slots show the name of a sound. All the others say \"zero stereo\". Yet I know there are additional sounds in those slots. I was able to load the instrument into Gigastudio and play them. This was even before I made any alterations to the instrument, so it is not something I screwed up. I believe zero stereo means no sound, and I was unable to get any sound from these slots after saving the instrument. Am I missing something here?

Again, any help would be appreciated. I have had this package for two months now, and have yet to write a note of music with it - I have spent all my time struggling with all these technical issues. Yet, I also purchased Garritan Strings, and I was writing music with that only five minutes after I installed it. Advanced Orchestra, in my admittedly uninformed opinion, is royally screwed up and if I had known what it was like beforehand, I would not have purchased it. Now, I have no choice, I have to learn how to get results from it because I have used up my budget for this stuff.


Delneroni,

From experience (with much hair loss) it is easy to get lost in the Instr Editor. If you want to use CC16 (=General Purpose 1) to select different articulations: 1. Load your AO .gig file into the editor, e.g. Viola. 2. Select the instrument you want to edit in the left hand window e.g. Viola Basic Key. 3. Highlight all the notes in the right hand window, turning them yellow and transpose down as you did before. 4. Click on the box just below this, marked \"keyboard\", ie the top dimension controller. 5. Click on the arrow in the control source box to bring up the controller menu. 6. Select (16)General Purpose 1 and OK. 7. The value range for CC16 is automatically split into 16 sections, with each section linking to one of the 16 articulations in the instrument file. If you click on each of the 16 little boxes in the top control source box you will see the value range it corresponds to in the bottom margin of the editor. You will see the articulation this CC16 value selects in the green velocity map box in small abbreviated letters. Write a list of each CC16 value range (0-7, 8-15 etc) against its corresponding articulation. In order to trigger a particular articulation at any point in your sequencer enter a value for CC16 within the relevant range. 7. Save your instrument (\"save as..\" if you\'re not committed) You might now need to do the same to all libraries which use keyswiches, eg Dan Dean, Xsample, GOS, even if they don\'t need transposing, else you \'ll go crazy. (Or simply transpose up in the sequencer)[/B][/QUOTE]

[Bill]

1. Yes, the articulation should stay in effect. Hard to way why it\'s not, but here are some general pointers.

- In the Finale Instrument list, un-check the \"Send Patches\" checkbox.

- If the Horns are set up on more than one staff, make sure you\'re not sending a legato message from the other staff (or layer)

I can\'t help you with 2. I have the Giga version of the AO strings but converted the brass and Winds from Akai.

[Beckers]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by delneroni:
2. Using French Horn section again as an example, when I click on the various keydimensions to see what sound is in each one, and what value it has, only the first four slots show the name of a sound. All the others say \"zero stereo\". Yet I know there are additional sounds in those slots. I was able to load the instrument into Gigastudio and play them. This was even before I made any alterations to the instrument, so it is not something I screwed up. I believe zero stereo means no sound, and I was unable to get any sound from these slots after saving the instrument. Am I missing something here?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, I don\'t have AO Brass, only strings.
Maybe you selected a \"Lite\" version in the instrument bank in the editor. When you load into Gigastudio do you load the whole bank (.Gig file)? If you do GSt may load the wrong instrument (e.g. the lite version) from the bank into the channel. You then need to drag the right instrument from the \"Loaded instument\" tab into the channel. Or better still, first open up the file in the Quick sound list by clicking on the + and dragging the instrument into the channel. Keep asking. Someone will know the answer