DOubt in Sample SOund...

[Yarelon]

Hello, everyone!
I\'ve just found this forum & I\'m newbie to sample. Since I\'m a brass lover, I like to use brass in making music. However, the brass sounds in synth/module are usually not acceptable. I hear that many sample libraries can imitate the sound of the \"real\" instruments. I intend to purchase some brass libraries to make the brass sound good. I find in this forum people are discussing QLB, DDSB these brass libraries. I just want to ask whether they are good brass libraries or not before I buy them.
Also, I have a question that is can I use these brass libraries to make the sound like this: ceremony.mp3 (\"http://www.geocities.com/baltantong/btmusic/ceremony.mp3\"). Since I found that synths cannot make such brass sound. Can samples sound like it? Could anyone help me to make clear of the question? I\'m sorry that you guys may find they are easy questions to all of you. But I\'m newbie so I don\'t know everything about sample.
Thank you very much.

[PeterRoos]

Hi Yarelon,

You really have to search and browse this forum. Brass libraries are a frequent topic, with indeed QLB and DDSB competing for no. 1. The brass in Advanced Orchestra is not very good (maybe except for the P solo trumpet). I have not yet used XSample Vol III(www.xsample.de) but the demos sound IMO like Adv Orchestra. Dan\'s instruments can be purchaded ony-by-one, which is another plus.

Mixing DD and QLB, I believe, is seen by most as the best virtual brass section.

There may be some new contenders this year, so really check out previous posts.

BTW: familiar tune... I wonder...

Sample libraries will get you a LOT closer to this sound than synths, but I\'m afraid you will never get close enough.

I recently posted a short demo on my website www.xs4all.nl/~deltaw (\"http://www.xs4all.nl/~deltaw\")

Welcome aboard!

Peter

[thesoundsmith]

Yarelon,

You have not told us what kind of music you write. If you\'re into the symphonic, film score, game orchestral kinds of things, the review by Thomas above is right on the money.

If you are trying to write pop, or big band, or jazz in general, none of the current libraries seem to be relevant-they\'re all orchestral by nature. There is a subset of QLB called \'Pop Brass\' from ProSamples, but this is also missing most of the requirements for truly Pop brass (unless you mean the Boston Pops...)

There are several of us here on the list waiting for someone to address this issue. Some of the current Brass libraries are very, very good for orchestra, but that\'s a totally different sound and dynamic.

Dasher

[Thomas_J]

I\'m sorry but there\'s no way you\'ll get that hollywood sound in brass samples with todays libraries. None of the existing libraries feature FFF dynamics in groupings of 3 or more instruments. (Only one solo library features FFF patches; Dan Dean\'s Solo Brass)

The options you have are:

Peter Siedlaczek\'s Advanced Orchestra, Brass:
Nice and crispy sound. Unfortunately it\'s too close miced and lacks a lot of brassy bite.
BS-94 (\"BS-94\")

(It\'s the official Advanced Orchestra demo)
I urge you to listen to Maarten Spruijt\'s work with Advanced Orchestra on: http://www.maartenspruijt.com/ (\"http://www.maartenspruijt.com/\")


Miroslav Vitous Brass:

Better than Peter Siedlaczek\'s brass but still not usuable for those heroic brass passages like in that star wars clip. It is recorded at a certain distance in an orchestra hall, making it much better sounding. Unfortunately you won\'t find FFF dynamics here either. The loudest sample is FF which doesn\'t really sound like FF, more like F. It is a crying shame, really.

You can find some demos of this library on www.ilio.com (\"http://www.ilio.com\")


Quantum Leap Brass: I do not own this library, but I\'ve heard loads of demos with it and it sounds like it has some of the same problems as the ones above. It sounds too close-miced and too static. I\'ve heard some good results with a blend of QLB and Dan Dean Solo Brass. The horns are very weak on this set IMO.

Listen to Nick Phoenix\' demo on: QLBGS (\"QLBGS\")

Dan Deans Solo Brass:
I do not own this library either, but from the demos I\'ve heard, it is a step in the right direction. It\'s a solo library, so you won\'t get that wonderful sound of 3 trumpets in unison, or 4 horns in unison. It is great for layering with other libraries it seems.

Listen to Dan Dean\'s demos at: http://www.dandeanpro.com (\"http://www.dandeanpro.com\")

I know Maarten Spruijt is working on a brass library. I\'m not too sure if its still going to be released, though.

I too was so frustrated over the lack of decent brass samples, so I set out to record my own samples. They are however not available to the public.
You can listen to what they sound like (for comparison to the others) on: http://home.online.no/~finjaco/ (\"http://home.online.no/~finjaco/\")


I know there are several other libraries in the making, including a complete symphony orchestra recording project in Seattle. There\'s also a brass library coming up from A swedish team. (I\'m not too sure about this one though)

There are also some X-Sample brass discs:
www.xsample.de (\"http://www.xsample.de\")


Hope this helps and good luck!

Thomas

[PeterRoos]

Hello Thomas,

You\'ve told us before that you can\'t release yor brass samples (it sounds sooo good...), but what about the orchestra noise samples on mysteries of the mind? I still find that a very intriguing effect.

Thanks again for your great music samples / sample music!

BTW: how is your project going? You had some commisioned work?

Regards,

Peter

[Thomas_J]

Hehe the noise effect is indeed an interesting experiment. It is not very hard to make. Just find a recording of any live orchestra playing any kind of symphony/concert. Especially old Bernstein recordings (the conductor) feature many minutes of silence in between movements and various pieces of concert work. I suggest you go to the library and borrow old the live recordings (With audience) you find. Browse through them and rip whatever you find useful. (The hall noise is NOT copyrighted, heh heh http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I didn\'t sample much (because I really didn\'t think it\'d be of any use) so a library consisting of 50mb of hall noise wouldn\'t sell very well. There\'s simply not a market for it.
The best I can do is to share the technique with you guys, and you can explore the possibilities yourself.

Thomas

[PeterRoos]

cool tip, never thought of this simple approach (although I am already systematically ripping all classical CD\'s in our local libary...)!

thanks!

[Yarelon]

Thank you very much!!

You guys really help me a lots! I should have a clear \"concept\" about these samples. Thanks for telling me tips and posting the link for demo listening. I agree that these brass sounds in the demos are much more better than my synth\'s brass!

Actually, I write pop in general. But I really like these orchestral brass sounds so I attempt to write orchestral scores. However, I really can\'t find a convincing brass sounds. After listening to these demos, I think the sample brass are much more closer to the brass sound I want. However, I should wait until these is a brass library can really imitate these nice brassy sounds.

Anyway, thank you for helping :-)

[thesoundsmith]

Pop/jazz/rock brass really is played differently from classical (ask my college orchestra conductor when I tried to play big-band trumpet in the classical orchestra!)

The orchestral brass sample libraries will be WAY closer to real-sounding horns than synth samples, generally, but the articulations and phrasing processes are quite different.

I\'d suggest perhaps getting one of the better libraries and trying to build articulations and control interfaces to maximize the usability. (And then post the ART files for other users! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif )
Dasher

[Yarelon]

Oh, Thomas your own brass samples is so cool especially the trombone parts (this sound is what I want)!

It seems that the sound of the trumpets in that starwars music is really hard to get. Can we probably \"obtain\" this sound in the future sample world? (I\'m a beginner so I don\'t know anything about this)

[Jamesmcwilliams]

While we\'re on the topic of brass,

I have met a Trumpet/Cornet player (solo quality too! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif ) who is willing to do session work for me for no fee (of course I told him i\'ll give him some cash anyway, and will pay him full fee if i use him on a paying job...but i\'m just wondering if anyone can give me some tips on micing and other issues related to recording brass? also has anyone tried using just one player and getting him to play all your trumpet pieces seperatly and layering them over to make ensembles/chords, and does it work well??

(-- there is a sad story connected to this actually-- the reason the trumpet player isn\'t in an orchestra right now is because several years ago some drunken fools kicked his jaw to peices a week or two before he was to attend the royal college of music... and he had to have it surgically reconstructed.)

[KingIdiot]

hey Thomas J,


do you know who is doing the symphony project in Seattle? I can think of a couple of Seattle based developers, and also know that the EMU \"virtuoso\" project was supposed to be converted to GIGA possibly even using surround.

Dan Dean Perhaps? that would be me trying to put 2 and 2 together since he seems pretty busy and quiet. ...... tho I could be coming up with 37299174739485 from that simple equation

Yarelon,

the Star wars brass sound has been a sort of \"dream sound\" on this forum http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif I\'m sure if you did a search for Star Wars brass you\'d come up with a lot of hits http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

i personally use QLB and DD solo Brass, and the sound is quite wonderful. However I did do some personal programming on both libraries to make them more \"playable\". I also run into harmonic overtones with reverbs sometime. Its probably due to a combination of the reverb and the \"close\" mic\'d nature of some of the samples. Also resonance tends to be an issue.

I think I may try something else during the mixing process to fix this. I think I\'m done with brass until someone just blows me away. Thomas\' sound is quite good. And he\'s probably right to keep them to himself. Why not have something unique to your own sound library http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif


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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 01-10-2002).]

[Chadwick]

James,

Using one player can be made to work_BUT_:

If you do a unison multitrack of the same instrument you\'ll run into phase problems - a bit like trying to \'fatten up\' a sample part by putting it down a few times (but not nearly as bad).

The way to get around this is to ask your friend to bring a few trumpets. If you\'re going to end up with four trumpets on the recording, the ideal would be for him to actually use four_different_trumpets. It\'s not so bad if the parts are harmony parts though, as you don\'t get unison note phase cancelling.

If you can\'t do that, at least get him to change his position in relation to the mic for each track - that might help a little.

Also, when a group of trumpets play, they work off each other in real time, both for pitch and timbre. This will be a little less intuitive in a multitracking situation, and you\'ll have to be much more critical of the first tracks you put down - as they\'ll be what your friend is working off. If the first track goes sharp at some point, your friend will tend to follow it.

Last thing. There is a sound you get \'in the room\' by using an ensemble of trumpets which you can\'t get by recording each member of the same group playing his part in isolation. I can\'t describe it, but this is a classic case of \'the whole is greater than the sum of its parts\'. There\'s nothing you can do about this.

Don\'t get me wrong, I think you\'ll be able to do some great stuff with a single trumpet player who knows his stuff - certainly better than many of the sample offerings out there.

Good luck
Rick

[Jamesmcwilliams]

Thanks chadwick. I\'ll bear that all in mind.

[This message has been edited by Jamesmcwilliams (edited 01-14-2002).]

[dandean]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
hey Thomas J,


do you know who is doing the symphony project in Seattle? I can think of a couple of Seattle based developers, and also know that the EMU \"virtuoso\" project was supposed to be converted to GIGA possibly even using surround.

Dan Dean Perhaps? that would be me trying to put 2 and 2 together since he seems pretty busy and quiet. ...... tho I could be coming up with 37299174739485 from that simple equation

Yarelon,

the Star wars brass sound has been a sort of \"dream sound\" on this forum http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif I\'m sure if you did a search for Star Wars brass you\'d come up with a lot of hits http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

i personally use QLB and DD solo Brass, and the sound is quite wonderful. However I did do some personal programming on both libraries to make them more \"playable\". I also run into harmonic overtones with reverbs sometime. Its probably due to a combination of the reverb and the \"close\" mic\'d nature of some of the samples. Also resonance tends to be an issue.

I think I may try something else during the mixing process to fix this. I think I\'m done with brass until someone just blows me away. Thomas\' sound is quite good. And he\'s probably right to keep them to himself. Why not have something unique to your own sound library http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That would be me, King. I\'ll have some beta instruments for people to hear at NAMM.

DD

[Simon Ravn]

And for us who cant go to NAMM (because, as I think Jens put it - the Atlantic is in the way), can you tell just a little more about what those beta instruments are about, Dan? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[KingIdiot]

Hey Look,

My math ain\'t so bad....now to work on my English and of course...spehleeng http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif


So where at NAMM will you be Dan? should be there Saturday.


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Really...I am an Idiot

[KevinH]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dandean:


[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That would be me, King. I\'ll have some beta instruments for people to hear at NAMM.

DD[/B][/QUOTE]

Dan,

I am in the market for a new orchestral library. When do you plan to release the Dan Dean Orchestral library?

Thanks

Kevin