help: missing just that one instrument

[dmecionis]

I've just ordered the Finale 2009 upgrade. I do classical music. The GPO sounds it comes with are all great and will suit me fine for some time to come, except for just one instrument.

I do a bit of writing for saxophones, in the classical style. Alto, tenor and baritone come with Finale 2009, but unfortunately for me soprano does not. I know I could get soprano sax if I pay for the Jazz & Big Band collection, but that's all I would be using in there. (Granted, one could always become inspired to expand, but I'm looking to keep focus right now, as well as keep costs down.)

The answer's probably no, but can anyone say if there's a way to purchase or find just one instrument? Any other suggestion?

Secondly, if there is no other route to take other than buying whole libraries, would I be able to write, say, a sax quartet SATB and have the ATB playback on the Garritan instruments and the S playback on some kind of Finale standard sound? What features (markings, etc.) would not work in that last scenario?

Thanks for the help

[ejr]

Several libraries have started selling individual instruments recently. Off-hand, I can't think of one that offers a sax, though. More to the point: I use a sax in exactly the same way that you describe in the score for a musical that I have been orchestrating for ages now and I have to say that I have yet to find one to my liking.

I think sax libraries in general have been a big disappointment - especially if you need a detailed, exposed solo or one that captures the subtone sound nicely. All too many end up sound like bassoons or kazoos, or get completely lost in the mix.

The best thing I can recommend at this point is Garritan Jazz and Big Band. Yes, it's a BIG library and the focus is a different sound than you are after, but it has two points in its favor: (1) It's relatively cheap and (2) there are several choices for each sax instrument, so you can pick the one that suits each piece best.

Equally important to me is that it gives you a variety of brass instruments (each with several types of mute) it uses Bb trumpets (rather than C trumpest like in my other libraries) and it includes flugel horns. This plus Westgate's lovely French Horn, gives me a lot of variety in the brass which helps cover some of its weaknesses.

[dmecionis]

Thanks ejr. So the Jazz library doesn't have kazoos? So much for my Concerto in Bm for Kazoo, String Orchestra and Badly-tuned Percussion. :p Seriously, you're saying the soprano and high saxes sound much better than a kazoo - OK, that's certainly good. I'll have to wait a paycheck or two though.

Interesting to know that about the trumpet crooks too. Bb in the Jazz and C in the GPO.

Thanks for all the help. If anyone has anything to add please do, especially if you can tell us about a great individual instrument you've heard.

-!

[DarwinKopp]

Hi dm,

Welcome to the forum.

The GPO English horn sometimes works as a passable soprano sax in a pinch.

[Reegs]

Welcome,

Finale 09 loads all VSTs now, correct? There's an excellent soprano saxophone soundfont online which you could load into sfz alongside the GPO stuff. It will respond to dynamics and expression changes differently than GPO stuff (it only responds to velocity, no modwheel)

SopSax sf2:
http://www.sf2midi.com/soundfonts/file-detail/clavinovasopranosax-sf2-769.html

Sfz:
http://www.project5.com/products/instruments/sfz_player/default.asp

Simply drop the sfz dll into Finale's vstplugins folder and rescan.

Hope that helps,
Reegs

[bmdaustin]

Chris Hein Horns has a very good soprano sax (http://wizardmedia.level0.org/chh-sopranosaxophone-promotion-sale-1-110.html) that was only $35. The catch is that it HAS TO HAVE Kontakt 2.2.4 or Kontakt 3. It doesn't come with a Kontakt player of its own. That's why it's only $35. I've used this instrument for several demos and it's very musical. Like a real soprano, it can be a little pitchy, but that can usually be avoided by adjusting the note velocities so that they call up a different sample. Otherwise, it adds to the realism.

[ejr]

Yes, that soprano sax does sound pretty good.

The problem with the Chris Hein single instruments is he only sells them from that web site, which requires entering a charge card number and he doesn't have a distributor here in the U.S. For someone like me, who has been the victim of identity theft before and will only charge by phone or send a check by mail, this is a deal breaker. I've brought this to his attention in the past, but he doesn't want to change, or doesn't believe it is costing him sales.

I am a developer myself. I use iPortis for my web store. It handles online sales worldwide. If a buyer wants to call in an order, they have someone there to take the call. If someone wants to send a check, they have an address where it can be received and cashed. It cost me nothing to have them set it up. They take only a small % of the sales for commission. I don't understand why some developers would rather lose customers than upgrade their shopping cart services.

Sorry for the rant. I know I've said all this before, but it warrants repeating. This is a developer's forum. If developers are really interested in knowing what costs them sales (at least as far as I am concerned) it's stuff like this (and buggy installation routines, and intrusive copy protection).

[rbowser-]

Reegs' had an excellent suggestion, using that good Sound Font with the free SFZ player. Whenever I come up short of an instrument I'd like to use, I search for a Font and most always find something to use. If I don't find a free one, then I've found very inexpensive ones. Always a good way to attack the dreaded lack-of-instrument problem.

Randy B.

[NeoDavinci]

Yes, that soprano sax does sound pretty good.

The problem with the Chris Hein single instruments is he only sells them from that web site, which requires entering a charge card number and he doesn't have a distributor here in the U.S. For someone like me, who has been the victim of identity theft before and will only charge by phone or send a check by mail, this is a deal breaker. I've brought this to his attention in the past, but he doesn't want to change, or doesn't believe it is costing him sales.


Hello,

I realize this is not exactly answering your saxophone question (I think Chris Hein would meet your needs too), but there are several ways to obtain a temporary credit card number. I think a Visa gift card is the easiest, but here is an article that gives several options:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/9789/temporary_credit_cards_for_online_shopping.html?ca t=15

If identity theft is your concern, this is certainly safer than charging by phone.

Hope that helps.
Mark

[ejr]

Just wondering if anyone has tried SaxLab. It seems that this approach might be an inherently better one than standard sampling.

[rbowser-]

Ejr, I've tried SaxLab.

When I was still putting together the recorded sound-track for the first production of my musical, I decided after I'd orchestrated the whole thing to go back through and add a Sax. At the time, JABB wasn't out yet, and I wasn't happy with the Sound Fonts I was finding, so I got and used SaxLab. The results were no more than OK.

On its own, SaxLab sounded better than in ensemble, in my experience. There are several parameters that can be automated, breath noise for instance. Quite a few choices for different Saxes also. But in the mix with the rest of my orchestra, it was odd how the dreaded Kazoo effect would creep in - It just didn't sound as natural as the rest of the instruments and stuck out because of that different quality. I ended up really burying the instrument in the mix, letting it come to the fore only on rare occassions.

That was my experience anyway, submitted in complete subjectivity.

Randy B.

[buckshead]

I've got the latest Saxlab but wouldn't recommend it for the soprano. I've not used the soprano before now but the samples are very uneven, some notes really smooth whilst others very harsh at the same level, I couldn't get a regular effect. But then I think the soprano sounds dreadful anyway,but thats my personal view.

[ejr]

I fell in love with the soprano sax decades ago. I was doing Shakespeare-in-the-Park for Joe Papp (I'm an actor). The composer for that production was Dick Peasle (who had done Marat/Sade some years earlier). He had a tape with some bowed instruments, but the bulk of the show was a percussionist (mostly timpani), a trumpet and (you guessed it) a soprano sax. I was amazed at how the trumpet and sax, playing in harmony, could sound like two trumpets. (Honestly, if you didn't see the instrument, you wouldn't have guessed).

In my composition, I am only using the soprano sax for two numbers, where I needed a third trumpet. For the rest of the show, the second reed plays clarinet and 2nd flute. No other saxes in the show. No reason for that other than this is what sounds best for the material and I didn't think that a definable sax sound was right for it. (I am currently using one of the soprano sax instruments from JABB.)

I think the appeal of the soprano sax depends on the material and how well it is played. (Listen to Sidney Bechet.) It can sound quite beautiful in its own right, when not substituting for a clarinet or trumpet. I just think that none of the sampled saxes quite do justice to it at the moment.

[rbowser-]

Ejr! - I Have to reply to your post, taking this thread even more off topic than it's gotten--but WOW - your message was full of stuff I got so excited about.

In the 1970's, Joseph Papp saw me act. He hired me on the spot, gave me a job with his Shakespeare in the Park company.

Well - I was afraid of moving to New York! - It's one of those Big Moments in life when a decision is made that makes for a profound effect. I turned a different corner, didn't take Papp up on the offer - And it's something I still waste some time regretting at times. I was young, grew up in Oregon--New York seemed like moving to Mars. But if only...

And you mentioned Richard Peaslee, composer of those Great anthems in "Marat/Sade." Fantastic!---That's the only play I've done twice. It was such a hugely important shows in the '70's, so I jumped at the chance to be in two different productions of it.

"Marat we're pooooor
And the poor stay poor
Marat we won't
Take it any more"

- Shivers remembering that show and its haunting songs.

Thanks for the powerful memories. Papp. Peaslee. - wow.

Randy B.

[ejr]

Glad that I could shake a few memories loose. I hope they were pleasant ones. The city was a lot closer for me (I grew up within walking distance of the city) so it was a no brainer. My first job out of college, it was either do a bit part in the most important show in Manhattan that summer or do a season of stock playing leads. I decided that it was better to do a very small role in a very big production. It was the right call for me. I'm a much better actor than I am a musician.

[bmdaustin]

If I understand correctly, you're going to use the soprano as a third trumpet basically? You might want to really consider using an alto sax for that purpose unless you have all three voices in the upper part of the staff or above it. Down low, sopranos aren't going to project enough to keep up with two trumpets and they can get somewhat "honky" for lack of a better term when they try too hard. Conversely, an alto will be higher in its own register, will project better and will blend better with the trumpets, especially when the trumpets are in the treble staff. That's one of the reasons why you never see a soprano in a "horn section". It's always an alto or tenor or both. Sopranos can't match the volume. It's an acoustic issue.

[ejr]

I don't know if this makes a difference, but here is how I have used the soprano sax in my score:

First number: In verses, phrases alternate between Trumpet I (open) and Trumpet II (muted). In choruses, Trumpet I plays in thirds with soprano sax or sax doubles melody of keyboard. (There isn't enough time for the second trumpet to take the mute on and off repeatedly.)

Second number: Three part harmony - Trumpet I (open), Soprano Sax, Trumpet II (open). All are on the treble staff. Trumpet I goes a little above the staff at the end.

[bmdaustin]

Please keep in mind that I'm speaking completely hypothetically since I haven't seen or heard the actual music.

re: first number - this should give a nice combination sound, and with the sax doubling the melody, that should give it a little more prominence. It should sound very nice, but will lean towards the sax in overall timbre. BTW, soprano sax and female vocal work absolutely great together, unison or harmony, particularly in harmony, though. As s sax player, I've played several duets in that format and they're always a joy because it sounds so good.

re: second number - if you're going for a brass section sound, I'd put the two trumpets on the top two voices and an alto on the lower voice for the reasons I've already outlined in my previous response. The "soprano in the middle" sound will be less potent. However, if you're locked in to the soprano, then your current plan will give the sax the most opportunity to keep up with the trumpets. If you're limited by budget to just one sax, then I'd go back and look at the option of using an alto in both numbers, keeping the plan for the first number and placing it below the trumpets for the second number. I guess it depends on the musical character needs for the first number. If you really have to have the soprano sound for that, then you have your answer.

[ejr]

Thanks for the feedback concerning how to use the sop sax. I'd really like to know more about how to accompany vocals. I've posted several requests and suggested this as a follow up to the RK orchestration forum; but the idea hasn't been going anywhere.

If you listen to the type of stuff that's on Broadway today, it is more contemporary sounding than it has ever been. The parts are much rangier and performers are allowed to do a lot of vocal ornamentation (in the pop or rock idiom). Everyone wears a mic, so you don't have to rely on writing only for their belt range. I assumed a decent range for my solists. But the type of ornamentation used today (based on scat singing in jazz) would be inappopriate for the period of my show. So, instead, I tried to hold the listener's interest by using unusual intervals and longer melody lines than you typically see today.

I left plenty of room to breathe, but in informal tests (using my nieces, who are decent vocalists, and myself - just barely able to sing well enough to get cast in comedic character roles) I found that about half the numbers were too difficult to sing without the full melody line in the instrumentation somewhere.

Following RK's rules of thumb, I put the melody above or below the vocal line if possible, in the solos that needed some help. For the chorus numbers I double the vocal parts at the unision. I use three violins for the women or the cello (or cello + 2 violas) to accompany the male chorus. If both men and women are singing, I've been using the French Horn, in the tenor range. For variety, I occasionally use the harp or pizz strings to pick out the melody instead. But, I'm afraid I haven't been much more adventurous than that.

I assume that harmonizing the vocal line at the third or sixth would work if the intervals aren't too unusual. But I'm at a loss as to which instruments would be appropriate. Do we want sounds that blend with the voice, or stand out from it? When does it get to be too overpowering? I've seen so many musicals and operas, it seems like I've heard just about every instrument used in this way at one time or another. But, being a novice at orchestration (and seldom having seen the full conductor's score for these productions) I am at a loss as to determine what the "rules" are. (Yes, I know rules are made to be broken. But they are important for beginners. When I deviate from them, I want to have a pretty good idea why. Otherwise, it's too hit and miss -- and that's exhausting.)

Any way, I just wanted to invite people with more experience than me to jump in (or start another thread) because this is something that has always interested me and I think it will be more useful than most people think. Having all these sounds at your fingertips makes it very tempting to write stuff that can't be performed or won't sound good live. There is no substitute for real world experience. But I am finding that the experience of others can be very helpful.