The Listening Room and other libraries

[rolifer]

Welcome to the Listening Room!

Here you can share your music, receive constructive criticism, collaborate and enjoy great music made by other members.

This section is for Garritan library users helping other Garritan library users. We ask that if you post music here that at it uses some of the sounds of our libraries. This makes sense since it is a Garritan Forum and we want to focus on our user's music. We also ask that if you critique other people's work you do so in a constructive and respectful manner.

Enjoy the music!

Gary Garritan

There is a current thread in the listening room that has a debate on what is allowed and what should not be allowed to be posted in the listening room. The following is my beliefs and I ask for yours as well.

Above is what Gary has written as a welcome and is the only guide I have seen that portrays Gary's wishes. To me it is obvious that a piece that does not use any GPO in it should not be posted in the Listening room. Some people think that a piece should use mostly GPO while others say as long as the piece says what instuments are used, then the piece is OK.

When I first joined here I had JABB and posted only pieces using that great library. Most of my works were done in full orchestration (thru Sib 4 without GPO) so I was unable to post them. I still have a number of pieces from that time that I have never redone thru GPO and wish I could post them, but I don't like to redo pieces if I can help it. I'd rather spend my time composing new works.

I upgraded to Sib 5 and purchased the Full GPO partly just to be allowed to post my music on this site. Up until this summer, most all of my posted works featured nothing but GPO and JABB and then I decided to purchase a few more libraries so as to spread my horizons.

In the works I post now (except for small ensembles) these other libraries are the backbone of the pieces. These other libraries are full of inherent reverb and I use GPO/JABB to tone those libraries down. Most every instrument in those libraries is doubled thru GPO or JABB and I love the results. Whenever one of my works uses a solo violin or Oboe, that lead is always a GPO instrument. I have more control of how I want the sound to be heard by using GPO.

From what I read of Gary's welcome note, I am allowed to post music like this. When Gary had the open Phone line last year I discussed this very topic with him and he basically said that we as composers should always be looking to expand our horizons and if I remember correctly, he said he saw no reason why I should not post my music as long as some of the instrumentation was one of his products.

It takes a certain skill to produce a strictly GPO piece and have it sound perfect and I marvel at those that possess that skill. With the right plug-ins and the right amount of dedication in a piece, some guys here can make GPO sound as good or as better than those $1000 dollar libraries.

I have found a way that works for me and love posting my music done the way I do it. I sometimes wonder though if some people here refuse to comment on some of my works just because they think I have crossed a line somewhere. I totally understand that position and sometimes I comtemplate the same question myself.

To me, Gary's welcome is straight forward and needs no deciphering of what he means, but apparently to some, what I do may not be right.

When I post a piece I say that the piece uses GPO, JABB and other libraries. I figure why give free advertising to other products. I do however name the libraries further down in the thread if asked what libraries I use. I am a member of many other sites as well and list GPO as one of the libraries I use in composing. I have even convinced others to purchase GPO and JABB. I firmly believe that there is no better product out there for the price.

I think that the discussion room is the place for this debate as compared to a thread in the Listening Room that many will not see.

I am very curious as to other's positions on this subject.

Sorry for the long post and hopefully some of you got thru to the end to read the final question.

Ron

BTW Even though I am a member of many other sites, this one is by far my favorite and is the site I call home.
Ron

[Leaf]

That's pretty much exactly the way i interpreted it...

that it is for works that use Garritan Libraries, not just for works that use only Garritan libraries, but both... with Garritan Libraries AND with only Garritan Libraries.

Can't effectively use the listening room right now, can't wait until i get rid of this dial up and get real internet.

[rbowser-]

Hi, Ron

Very good idea to continue that Listening Room discussion over here to the more general chat area. If people have more on their mind about this topic, this is the perfect thread for it, and the more appropriate venue.

In the thread you're talking about over in the LR, I posted the same quote from Gary - what he says about the guidelines in his "sticky" post there. He points out the logic of the idea for the LR to be a place where Garritan users can share music created with Garritan instruments.

He's very lenient in simply asking that "some instruments" from his software be used. He could have said that pieces posted needed to consist of 90% + Garritan, or he could have said they should use his instruments exclusively. If he would have, it would have made total sense, and only a bozo would want to argue with him about it.

Maybe he'd like to update his sticky post, maybe not.

But things usually have been going pretty smoothly there in the LR. Many of the regulars, me included, have posted pieces that have some things from other libraries added. When I do that, it's because I need an instrument not in any of the current Garritan Libraries - like when I posted "Dorian" tracks which needed a Soprano Recorder.

It's no handicap to me to use Garritan Libraries - that's what I have, and it doesn't interest me to add more instruments, ESPEcially if they're "instant gratification" Libraries that have the reverb recorded with the samples--YIKES!

Layering instruments from other libraries like you've taken to doing seems like it should be perfectly acceptable--Mr. G himself invited you to post more music even when it uses fewer of his instruments.

Part of what youre asking is if some people have avoided replying to your posts because they may be annoyed at how many other libraries you use. I suppose that may be the case. If they choose to have an issue with that even when Gary doesn't, of course they can do that. But it'd be a pretty silly reason to not listen to what you're up to.

However, it's possible that you're being sensitive about something that actually isn't bothering other people so much. Even pieces that use 100% Garritan can slip off the LR front page quickly. And that's because participation isn't really of a Titanic level. There are people who post music who seldom respond to other people's music, and that's just the way it's always been. And it's amazing how many times a piece will be listened to in proportion to how many people take the time to stop and type a reply. The percentage is something like 10 respones out of 100 hits. I think perhaps some people are just shy about putting their respones into words, and then others are just in too big of a rush to respond.

Interesting side note on that - at Box now, when someone downloads a file, an auto email is sent to the user to alert them to that. I've had a number of things posted in the LR which were downloaded by people who never posted a reply. That's just the way things go. One person said they don't respond to my posts because they only like gentle pastoral pieces--OK, if they want to limit what they want to leave feedback on, that's their privilege.

To your main point - your quote from Gary says it all. Why anyone should get worked up about Anything posted is really something I can't quite get. I've pointed people in the direction of the guidelines when it seems they haven't seen the rules, but then I leave it to them. I'm not a Forum cop and wouldn't want to be one.

Maybe I'm getting to an age where Live and Let Live is more important to me than hassling about trivia. We have a great thing going with this Forum. Most of the time everything goes well. When it doesn't, Gary can make choices to deal with things he feels needs correction, and he does so.

And so on.

Thanks for the thoughtful post, Ron You spent so much time writing it, I figured you deserved a looooooooooong answer. :p

Randy

[rbowser-]

...it is for works that use Garritan Libraries, not just for works that use only Garritan libraries, but both... with Garritan Libraries AND with only Garritan Libraries...
Hi "Leaf"---I don't understand what I quoted from you. Was it a typo? It's the same thing twice. :confused:

Randy

[Leaf]

Hi "Leaf"---I don't understand what I quoted from you. Was it a typo? It's the same thing twice. :confused:

RandyYou are correct my friend, it's redundant.:wow:

Unfortunately, writing is not my strong suit, but I'm working on it.;)

[efiebke]

I own TWO GPO libraries, TWO JABB libraries, and the Stradivari and Gofriller libraries. I have also purchased Garritan libraries as gifts for friends. I am a faithful and grateful Garritan-product owner. I also own about a half dozen other libraries produced by other companies. I like them all. I use them all. And to be clear, I use them all in combination with each other.

Throughout the past year, I've posted 4, maybe 5 compositions that contain a combination of instrumental libraries with Garritan products being the predominate ones. What satisfies my modest ears are the combination of the libraries used in my very modest compositions.

Here is what Mr. Garritan wrote on August 12, 2005. It is found still "stickyed" on the top of The Listening Room forum:


Welcome to the Listening Room!

Here you can share your music, receive constructive criticism, collaborate and enjoy great music made by other members.

This section is for Garritan library users helping other Garritan library users. We ask that if you post music here that at it uses some of the sounds of our libraries. This makes sense since it is a Garritan Forum and we want to focus on our user's music. We also ask that if you critique other people's work you do so in a constructive and respectful manner.

Enjoy the music!

Gary Garritan

Yes. Mr. Garritan makes his request very clear. "We Ask that if you post music here that it uses some of the sounds of our libraries."

. . . some of the sounds . . ..

He also asks that critiques be "constructive and respectful" as they should be.

Now. . . I use about 75 to 80% instruments from Garritan libraries, but not 100%. I doubt very much that, in the future, I'll be posting compositions utilizing 100% Garritan libraries unless the rules of the forum changes (or if he specifically requests so for future Christmas albums or future compositional competitions, etc.) When or IF I get the time to write music, I write music to write music, not JUST to utilize any one instrumental library. It just so happens that Garritan products sound GREAT which is why I use them 75 to 80% of the time. ;) Heck, they sound GREAT all by them selves! But I especially love the sound of them in combination with the other libraries that I own.

Cheers! :)

Ted

P. S. . . If you're wondering why I'm posting to this particular thread at this time in life, it's because I'm trying to get my mind off other things in life that are causing some stress. Family members with health-related problems type of stress. Lots of "abnormal findings" with lots of unanswered questions. Hopefully questions will be answered within the next several days. . . . :( :(

Right now. . . I NEED to say out loud that I LOVE Garritan products whether used by themselves or used with other instrumental libraries. But my mind is screaming "I hope my mom doesn't have cancer. . . I hope my mom doesn't have cancer. . . I hope my mom doesn't have cancer. . . " :( :( :(

UGH!

Ted

[DPDAN]

When I made my response in the listening room, it is not because I "detected" a sound from a non-Garritan library, it is because the Garritan instruments that the original poster (OP) listed as using were not heard AT ALL!

When someone says "Oh, I blended the GPO strings with The East West Quantum Leap Symphonic Platinum Hollywood Strings Gold library" that doesn't sit well with me.

Sorry, but all of GPO's strings have heavy vibrato. When a person uses another library's strings that have no vibrato at all (which is all I heard), and blends GPO Strings, you are going to hear vibrato in the strings..... UNLESS,
you turn the GPO strings down so far that you can't hear them, it totally defeats the point of listing the specific GPO, or Garritan instruments that were supposedly used.

Some of the Christmas songs that I have done in the past use Garritan Orchestral Strings (GOS), and none of the GPO strings were used. I always make it known that GOS was used in a particular recording, and I list the other libraries like JABB and Steinway piano from JABB etc.

I never want anyone to hear strings in one of my "Garritan renderings" and think something like, "I just don't know what he does to make the strings sound like that, I can't make my GPO strings sound like that."

Here is another way to look at this.... and from the opposite end.

How dishonest and misleading is it to post a piece of music where not even one Garritan instrument can be heard AND,.... NOT give credit to the library developer who's sounds are being heard? It is no secret that perhaps the weakest link in GPO is the brass instruments, and the fact that there are no string articulations without vibrato,.... section or solo, with the exception of the open strings, (not fingered). All of the folks on the Garritan team know this, and the new GPO is going to be stunningly better.

It's all about music, and not what libraries were used, INCORRECT!

It is not possible to listen to Garritan samples in the Garritan Listening Room (GLR) without hearing music... well maybe sometimes... ;) IT is all about music using Garritan samples.

It is expected, that when someone clicks on a link to download or listen to a piece of music in the GLR, that it is made with primarily Garritan sounds. Even if someone posts a full "LIVE" orchestra recording, and says, "I added GPO's timpani to this real recording because the timpanist was sick and couldn't make the concert, I think it turned out pretty realistic, what do you guys think?" THEN, we all know what's what, and we can hone in and listen to how well the GPO timpani's fit the piece, or how well they were played.

Imagine if someone posted a piece of music in the GLR created exclusivley with VSL samples, and we read everyone's praise about how awesome the recording was, and not one of us was brave enough to break up the party and reveal... "guys, this isn't GPO".

I feel a great sadness when I raise the question of what WAS used? In fact, in that topic, I was not the first one to recognize, and mention that a list of instruments/libraries should be made known.

I'm rambling.
Gary makes it very clear, and he has not changed his outlook on his post/s to my knowledge. He invites his customers to use other libraries ,,, yes, ones made by other developers, that's right, his competition. Most sample developer's products contain amazing strengths, and Gary encourages us to expand our "color pallette" as he once told me. I feel that Gary is being totally honest when he says that.

We just need to understand, that if no Garritan sounds can be heard in a recording, then it clearly DOES NOT belong in the Northern Sounds Garritan Listening Room. And, it is always possible that someone will post a "midi mockup" with samples from another developer, and unintentionally but genuinely post it without knowledge of these guidelines.

I am done venting.

I should also mention that I did give credit to the original poster for his good writing.
And I meant that too.

Sincerely everyone :)
Dan

[keithjfuller]

most of my music uses anywhere from 25% to 100% garritan. usually when i choose to use a different library it is because a) GPO strings all have heavy vibrato (which Dan pointed out), and it is literally impossible to get that tight smooth sound with them or b) i need a synth sound.

there are some pieces that i have written that didn't use any garritan stuff or maybe just a snare drum that i absolutely loved, but didn't share them here because I know what this room is for.

I agree with Dan about the post that started this entire thing, because after I heard it I didn't recognize any of those sounds as anything garritan - they all sound EWQL to me. I simply chose not to post anything, but it really pissed me off and I was glad that Dan did say something.

The poster responded by saying that the sounds were blended, but I couldn't for the life of me hear it and I'd like to hear a version with just GPO and one where it was stripped dry. I will take their word for it, and if true then it doesn't bother me at all but if not it doesn't have a place here.

SOOOOOOOOO.... I imagine that it is fine to post anything that features some garritan stuff, just let us know beforehand if it isn't obvious.

my $0.02.

[rbowser-]

---Well, Dan, that rather takes the shine off the apology you made in The Listening Room. Apparently it was important for you to retract and re-vent. OK.

I'd rather take people for their word when they say they've used Gary's Libraries in their posted pieces. The vast majority of the time, I rather think people are truthful.

As I said earlier, I'm not very interested in being a Forum Cop. I guess a few people like to spend their time and energy that way.

Randy

[rbowser-]

Keith - I'm sorry to see you're also wasting your time being "pissed off" by a new poster who I really think was simply wanting to share his music.

"...it is literally impossible to get that tight smooth sound with them..." So, you're complaining about people not using Garritan sounds, but in the same post you're making a blanket statement critical of GPO which is patently unsound. I see. Complicated.

Randy

[rolifer]

Randy

I was very hesitant about putting in my post the part about comments. I didn't want that to be an issue at all and I should have left it out, but I didn't for one main reason. Sometime last year there was a post made and I couldn't for the life of me pick out a single instrument that sounded like a Garritan product. For that reason alone I decided not to respond to that post and at that time I was responding to every post in the LR. A few weeks later another post was made and it also seemed to have no GP in it. This time I asked the poster (I don't remember either of these poster's names) what libraries he was using. I don't remember his response either.

This site is not much different from other sites in that a ratio of 10 listeners to one comment is about the norm. I do know of a few where it is a lot worse. The only behavior that really gets me is when a guy bumps his post back to the top and expects others to comment on his post but refuses to post comments in anyone elses. I don't think I have ever seen that happen here, but it is common on other sites. What I do now is check out a person's history and if they have posted a comment on anyone elses music, I will post a comment on their thread. If they have never posted outside of their own thread, I just ignore the post.

All in all though we agree with what Gary says in his sticky.

Dan

I do hope you do not think I was singling you out. I think you made valid points in the other thread and in this one as well.

Everytime I have heard a solo violinist in person, I have heard alot of vibrato. Most of the other libraries I have heard use very little or it is all done my uncontrolable cc values. Vibrato is one of the main reasons I always use the GPO strings in my compositions along with the other libraries that don't have as much and the two together sound very real to me.

In the GPO tutorials it talks about building your own sections. I do that by using other libraries along with GPO. I spend hours getting the levels right between the libraries and if the GPO instruments are not heard, than I have wasted all of that time.

I spend a lot of time getting all of my libraries to sound right together. Most of that is because of all of the inherent reverb in the other libraries. Granted they sound good right out of the box, but usually there is too much reverb, but when put with GPO, they sound okay.

"Color Pallette" is exactly what Gray mentioned to me when I talked to him. I forgot that was the term he used until I read your post.

I listened to the post in question when it was first posted and there were no replies at that time but I decided to ignore it just because I also heard no GP in it and was too lazy to ask what libraries he was using. I went back to the post just because there was so many responses on it and I was curious as to why. That was when I read the comments and thought about it all for awhile and decided to start this thread.

I will add here that if you ever listen to any of my music and you cannot hear either GPO/JABB or the Steinway at all, then please bring it to my attention as that means I have done something wrong.

Ted

I do hope you get good news and soon. The waiting can be the hardest part.

Ron

[rbowser-]

Ron, I knew immediately this would be a Can of Worms thread - but it's still good you started it. I'm still surprised at how worked up some people can get over these topics.

I'm in the LR to hear music. Naturally I want people to respect the venue and Gary's perfectly logical request to use his Libraries so the discussions have a point of reference, but I'm not losing sleep when once in a great while some new poster apparently chooses to ignore the guidelines.

You mentioned the thing of people re-boosting their posts but not replying to other people's posts--You're right, that's very rare here. What we do get once in awhile is people who re-boost their posts as often as possible, delaying their responses to each individual so they have more chances to re-boost. Ah well!

I respect everyone on this thread. I do wish everyone could chill a bit and appreciate how for the most part the LR is conducted very properly.

Randy

[rolifer]

You mentioned the thing of people re-boosting their posts but not replying to other people's posts--You're right, that's very rare here. What we do get once in awhile is people who re-boost their posts as often as possible, delaying their responses to each individual so they have more chances to re-boost. Ah well!

I respect everyone on this thread. I do wish everyone could chill a bit and appreciate how for the most part the LR is conducted very properly.

Randy

Of the few here that do Re-boost as you call it, most seem to also respond in a lot of the threads that are not theirs as well.

If I composed 3 or 4 pieces a year and saw my work disappear in a week, I would also try to find a way to get it back to the front page. When I am on a roll, I just am waiting for my piece to get off of the front page so I can post a new one. Lately I have not had that problem. There is almost always a piece of mine on the front page (which might also piss off some people) but I compose a lot and I am always excited to see what the good people here have to say about it.

There were even a few times when I first started posting here that I would do a double comment on posts below mine just to force my piece to the 2nd page.

The other reason I started this thread was that fishing season opens soon and I really need some free worms.

Ron

[DPDAN]

The other reason I started this thread was that fishing season opens soon and I really need some free worms.

Ron

Ron that is a riot! :D
LOL LOL LOL LOL

Hey Randy, I am not mad at anyone except people who puposely and knowingly post music with virtually no Garritan sounds.

It would be difficult to find a more "dedicated to Gary" person than me,
I am proud of that, and I do get angry when some people go to the listening room and post music with dishonest intentions. I don't think the original poster in that other thread is one of these kinds of people, and I think you are right, his intentions were genuine, but at first, to me, his post was not. I apologized to him and he accepted.

The response that I made in THIS topic/thread, is not at all about him, it is about the apparent confusion surrounding what is and what is not proper for the Garritan Listening Room.

I am not upset, and I have not lost any sleep over this.

I also respect your statement about trusting people when they say they are using this and that, that is nice of you, but I will always trust my ears over anything anyone tells me. I know all to well pretty much every instrument and exactly how it sounds in GPO, but when the mix proves otherwise, I will always question it.

As you know, even though moderators have no banning or deleting abilities, and I'm glad we don't ... I am someone who is willing to take the heat when he or she finds themselves in a position to not look the other way.

Gary is too busy to monitor all these posts, and I am too, but through the generous help of numerous folks like us, he can relax more knowing that things are handled fairly and with dignity.

Dan

[nikolas]

just for the record:

I don't post too much music here, for various reasons, one of them being that I don't own GPO, etc... So...

I've posted 3 pieces recorded live.
1 Piece created with another library and the solo strad (*ahem*... It was the same piece that was performed in Seattle so I *HAD* to post! :D)
2-3 pieces with the Steinway.

So I'd say that I lean very much in posting pieces which do not have tons of Garritan stuff. On the other hand I do feel I'm part of the Garritan community, and very much so. I take part, I post, I care, I discuss, I try to help out when I can, I buy posters, etc...

What I've learned in the past 2 days, for other reasons, external to NSS, is that it's not what you say but how you say it: It's not that someone used another library and whatnot, but the reactions and posts in the end.

So for me, being a Greek hotheaded it takes more effort to stick my tongue in my mind before I actually open my mouth. But I'm getting there.

Nikolas

[GrahamKeitch]

Hi all,

To reiterate what I said over in the GLR, my take is as follows:

1) Be upfront and honest. If using other libraries, say so. Explain to what extent and the reasons.

2) If posting in the GLR, Garritan instruments should play a key part or obvious role. Although open to interpretation, this means either an important solo instrument or a greater part of the overall performance.

3) If 2 above can't be met, revert to 1 above and post under General Discussion. This comes under the category of keeping in touch with friends. "Thought you might like to hear how this turned out live" or "thought you might like to hear what I'm up to these days".

To me, 1) above or lack of it, is what causes problems.

Regards,

Graham

[Michael_uk]

I agree with DP Dan.

Personally I feel that Gary is too lenient in his guidelines. Whilst not commenting on the posting that started this debate, I do feel that the wording generally does leave use of the Listening Room open to abuse. I applaud Dan for having the courage to speak out when he feels that Gary's guidelines are not being observed.

[AlanPerkins]

I think posters have an implied obligation to prospectors who come looking to see what Garritan products are like before making an informed decision to purchase.

If it is misleading then we have collectively and unwittingly committed some kind of fraud.

I remember a young and promising composer here a year or so ago who posted a number of works, notably one that was based on the Hans Christian Andersen Little Matchseller. Dan noticed the music appeared to not be Garritan and the writer admitted he had written it with VSL from memory. The posts were removed, the young composer disappeared and that was that.

I think the spirit of the instructions are that GPO should be the predominant library or it is misleading. I don't really like the meshed sounds anyway. To me they don't really sound right.

I think though that it is important to recognise that different people participating in this forum have different purposes, different objectives. For some it is about the rendering, the realism. For them, GPO has purpose and meaning independently from the music. For others, it is completely about the music. For these people, GPO is almost an irrelevance except insofar as it enables them to achieve the end which is the music. For most people it is a matter of somewhere between these two extremes.

[rbowser-]

This thread is good testimonial about how the regulars at this Forum, myself included, are proud and happy to be part of such a great, supportive community of fellow artists. We have different feelings about the way some things could be conducted, but each in our own way, we do what we can and what seems right to us for maintaining the good vibe quality here.

I quietly go about my business of making sure Gary knows about threads I think it would be good for him to know about, I keep doing what I can to help people out with technical problems, and like many of us, I enjoy the time I can find to hear new music in our Listening Room, usually posting enthusiastic responses since I'm constantly so amazed at the quality of work our group produces.

I've said here and other threads that Gary may want to be more specific in his LR guidelines so they're less open to interpretation. But until then, it doesn't help for us to react to posts according to what We feel the guidelines should be. We can all have our off-moments at the Forum, posting things which could have been more carefully considered. I just hope we can avoid coming down harshly and nastily when we feel someone has been misleading in something they've posted. Meeting a disregard for the LR guidelines with a cool, calm, but clear explanation of the rules would always be better for the Forum than angry replies to rule-infringers.

By the way, Alan, your reply makes it sound like you think the LR is for only GPO pieces - It's a matter of interpretation again I guess, but Gary's brief sticky post about the LR guidelines talks about Garritan instruments - meaning they could be from any of his Libraries. A post with only JABB or CMB in it is just as welcome as a post done with GPO - that seems rather clear to me.

Carry on everyone. You're great folks, and I'm very happy to call you all my online friends.

Randy B.

[rwayland]

Well, commenting on the secondary issue of this thread, there are some good reasons for not commenting on music. The biggest is probably a matter of very slow connections, which do not handle streaming, and download of mp3's can take a very long time. High speed connection is not an option in many places except by satellite and that requires a commitment of two years, which means in effect, a commitment to a $1200.00 purchase. Because of this, I seldom comment, but would like to comment more. Another reason for not commenting could be shyness, or lack of confidence. In the matter of confidence, I admit frequent shortage of it.

As for bumping, one good reason. When comments seem to require a reply, it seems reasonable and courteous to provide it. Also, it seems courteous to thank the commenter, especially on very favorable remarks, although such replies can be included in a single response.

On the main thread, it seems reasonable that music posted here ought to display a prominence of GPO. Gary is a fine, considerate, supportive person, but he is, sensibly enough, promoting a business. He is quite considerate of our positions and needs, and I think we owe him the same.

That is more than I have said on anything for a while! Now it is time to pick up the Milk video and enjoy it while watching for errors and omissions!

Richard

[AlanPerkins]

By the way, Alan, your reply makes it sound like you think the LR is for only GPO pieces - It's a matter of interpretation again I guess, but Gary's brief sticky post about the LR guidelines talks about Garritan instruments - meaning they could be from any of his Libraries. A post with only JABB or CMB in it is just as welcome as a post done with GPO - that seems rather clear to me.


Randy B.

Good point Randy, that was Freudian but unintentional. Actually I purchased JABB and CMB in the GoRound (and the Strad nad Gofriller for that matter). But I haven't really looked into them yet.

I need to make more time to get my musical ideas down.

I am now going off topic, but I tried to set down a very complete orchestral template to make it easier to begin pieces but I ran out of RAM when I loaded it.

[Garritan]

Thanks all for discussing this issue. This topic comes up now and then and it's important the new members know about how we handle other libraries in the Listening Room. The last time this came up, a Listening Area (http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=108) in the main area of Northern Sounds was established for works that include other libraries.

Randy put it best "Live and Let Live is more important to me than hassling about trivia. We have a great thing going with this Forum. Most of the time everything goes well."

We certainly do have a great thing going. This is a terrific forum with extraordinary people and things go very well almost all the time. There's so much music happening here. Think about it... there's over 65,000 posts in the Listening Room with thousands of new musical works posted. There's nothing quite like the Listening Room anywhere.

When someone new sees so much attention and comment being given to works, it is natural to want to join in and get some of the love. Sometimes a person use another library and we will let it go and they usually wind up getting one of our libraries.

But if that happens often, it may cause our users to not post. We cannot open the Listening Room up for the whole world to post works or we will be inundated. The Listening Room is already so busy and will get even busier once GPO ARIA and the other libraries are released.

When using mostly other libraries, the problem is not everyone has Halion, VSL, EW, KH, SISS, SAM, Miroslav or the many other libraries. Everyone here has Garritan libraries and can receive comment and specific instruction of how to make their works sound better. Using a preponderance of other libraries leaves little avenue for specific instruction and can waste other member's time.

There have been rare instances when people have abused the generosity, time and consideration of other members by posting works that contain very little or no sounds from our libraries. Some have gone so far as to hawk other libraries and this is inconsiderate to the host and to the membership. But these are very rare cases. 99.9% of the time it's just perfect here.

We've always encouraged the use of other libraries and when GPO was first launched I stated that we hope GPO leads people to other libraries. And it's okay to post works that use instruments from other libraries, but be mindful of the other people in the forum and the host.

Just use common sense. A piece can feature the Authorized Steinway but have a VSL in the background and that would be fine. But if a piece is comprised of sounds mostly from another library with a scant mixture of GPO instruments unnoticeable in the background, you may want to think twice and post it in the Listening Area in the main section.

When in doubt ask yourself whether a piece uses a preponderance of Garritan libraries or other libraries, what is being featured, how does it come across as a whole, and would the work be appropriate for comment in a Garritan forum to be commented on by Garritan users.

And if you are still in doubt, drop me an email and ask. Or ask one of our moderators.

Just keep the music in the Listening Room coming. Hearing your music is the greatest reward that makes it all worthwhile.

My best,

Gary

[rbowser-]

Thank you so much, Gary - It's great to have your authoritative response on this thread.

And thanks for mentioning the newer Listening Area for works that aren't Garritan oriented - I had actually forgotten about that!--and hadn't even been there before. I can see it hasn't had a lot of traffic yet. We could all pitch in to help promote that area more.

You also said something that none of us had come up with on this thread, and I feel is very insightful and helpful for us to keep in mind:

"...When someone new sees so much attention and comment being given to works, it is natural to want to join in and get some of the love..."

You are so right!

It's an encouraging, inspiring, reassuring, very helpful post, Gary. Thank you.

Randy

[AlanPerkins]

Yay Gary.

Good post.

[Tom_Davis]

Not long ago I posted the Kyrie of a Mass I had written and received several very nice compliments. I mentioned that I used all Garritan samples. Within the week I got two rather nasty e-mails telling me to remove the piece since the choral sounds could not be Garritan because the Garritan Choir had not yet been released. I responded that I used the GC as it is included in Finale 2009. One e-mailer apologized, the other said that I was not telling the truth and should not post here again.

Unfortunately because ARIA will not load GPO, JAZZ, CMB, etc, I can no longer show the better sounds of those libraries, but that doesn't mean I won't keep writing music; just that it won't sound as well as it used to.

[karvasika]

Not long ago I posted the Kyrie of a Mass I had written and received several very nice compliments. I mentioned that I used all Garritan samples. Within the week I got two rather nasty e-mails telling me to remove the piece since the choral sounds could not be Garritan because the Garritan Choir had not yet been released. I responded that I used the GC as it is included in Finale 2009. One e-mailer apologized, the other said that I was not telling the truth and should not post here again.

I'm sad to hear about this kind of stuff, I know how it feels. :/ I hope you didn't get too offended by that kind of stuff and still keep on writing and posting. Not everyone thinks before they write. Like Gary said, just use common sense and it'll be fine. It's not your fault if some people don't.

I personally find this kind of behaviour very unconstructive and I wanted just wanted to post this to let you know not everyone thinks like that.

[rbowser-]

Hi, Tom - It's impossible for me to imagine what it'd be like to be one of those bozos who emailed you. Not only ill-informed about the Garritan Choir and how it's included in Finale 2009, but to be so rabidly on guard to attack someone like that. Strange dimension they exist in.

But, as Gary said, and karvasika just now reiterated, thank heavens that kind of behavior is extremely rare here.

I don't understand why you can't keep using Garritan Libraries - Is it because only Aria works with the new Finale? KP2 doesn't work in it anymore?? - This can't be right. Explain what you mean, maybe there's something you're misunderstanding--I sure hope so!

Randy

[swinkler]

I don't understand why you can't keep using Garritan Libraries - Is it because only Aria works with the new Finale? KP2 doesn't work in it anymore?? - This can't be right. Explain what you mean, maybe there's something you're misunderstanding--I sure hope so!

If Tom's like me, Aria works so well with Finale he refuses to use KP2 unless he absolutely had to for some reason.

Steve Winkler

[rbowser-]

Hi, Steve - Hmmmm, I see - But Tom said:

"...Unfortunately because ARIA will not load GPO, JAZZ, CMB, etc, I can no longer show the better sounds of those libraries, but that doesn't mean I won't keep writing music; just that it won't sound as well as it used to..."

If he knows he can still use KP2, surely he rather do that than not use the Garritan instruments at all! After all, many of us are still using KP2 - I'm one of those folks who don't have problems with it, and really like having all my Garritan goodies lined up inside that one player. I look forward to the new Aria-driven GPO,--but in the meantime---

Tom?---You know you can still use KP2 -?

Randy

[RichR]

I guess I am like Tom. I can't seem to get or find KP2 in Finale 2009. I write in Finale and then move to Sonar which does have KP2 available. It would be nice to use GPO and JaBB in Finale especially since there is no eb clarinet and other instruments available in Finale's ARIA samples.

I know, I know this is in the wrong thread...:)

[rbowser-]

--oh, you're right, Rich - we kind of took this into an OT direction.

BUT while we're here... - Steve seemed to imply that KP2 could still be used in Finale - Maybe he can wrap this mystery up and let you guys know how he gets KP2 working.

Randy

[Garritan]

Hi Rich,

It may be that you just need to copy the K2 dll into the Finale VST folder for it to appear.

The upcoming ARIA GPO will solve some of these problems and make things easier.

Best,

Gary



I guess I am like Tom. I can't seem to get or find KP2 in Finale 2009. I write in Finale and then move to Sonar which does have KP2 available. It would be nice to use GPO and JaBB in Finale especially since there is no eb clarinet and other instruments available in Finale's ARIA samples.

I know, I know this is in the wrong thread...:)

[swinkler]

Gary's response is usually the answer to these type of problems. For some reason I didn't have to do anything with my Finale 2009 install to make the full KP2 version available.

I just prefer not to use it :)

Steve Winkler

[Michael_uk]

I guess I am like Tom. I can't seem to get or find KP2 in Finale 2009. I write in Finale and then move to Sonar which does have KP2 available. It would be nice to use GPO and JaBB in Finale especially since there is no eb clarinet and other instruments available in Finale's ARIA samples.

I know, I know this is in the wrong thread...:)
Hello Rich,

I use the 'full' GPO with KP2 in Finale 09 without any problems.

For this to work, as Gary mentioned, you need to copy and paste some files into the Finale directory as follows.

(1). Go to C:\Program Files\Finale 2009\Finale VST and make sure you have the KontaktPlayer2.dll file there

With Finale 09 and Garritan Libraries installed on your computer, this file should be there but if it isn't then you need to locate it on your hard drive then copy and paste it into into the above folder.

(2). Next you will need to download and paste the following files into the same directory above. Important, please note the following are for Kontakt Player 2 (KP2)

For GPO: gpofull2instrument.txt
For JABB: GarritanJazzinstrument-K2.txt
For CMB: ConcertMarchingBandInstrument.txt

These files can be downloaded from the Make Music site using the following link. Please be sure to download the KP2 files and not the KP1.

Garritan Libraries Finale Text Files (http://makemusic.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/makemusic.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=644&p_created=1179424788&p_sid=lvRk7tsj&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9MTAsMTAmcF9wcm9kcz0xLDE5NDQmcF9jYXRzPSZ wX3B2PTIuMTk0NCZwX2N2PSZwX3BhZ2U9MSZwX3NlYXJjaF90Z Xh0PUdhcnJpdGFu&p_li=&p_topview=1)

That's all there is too it. Voila, you should now have Finale 09 and GPO/JABB singing happily together.

Please come back if you still have problems and I'll do all I can to help. :)

Good luck.

[Tom_Davis]

Thank you, Randy and Steve. First, I am an avid Garritan fanatic and prefer not to get re-involved with Kontakt on my new operating system, vying, instead, to wait until GPO, JABB, etc are updated so that they will load into ARIA. That's my esoteric answer - and a truthful one. However, on the totally practical side, for some reason my Kontakt that came with GPO when I first bought it simply stopped running. I tried re-loading, but to no avail. I e-mailed NS, but their response was that it was only meant as a sample and that I should purchase K2. But, if ARIA is anywhere near becoming usable I hate to drop the coin for another bad experience with Kontakt. So, as with all things, I'm a substantial part of my own problem. ~|

As for the e-mails, I took them in stride. A person who cannot survive a few attacks on their music should get out of the composer business. I have since re-worked the Kyrie, and Agnus Dei (but left the SAnctus as it was) and am now working on the Gloria. I'll render them all with Finale 2009 (which I absolutely LOVE) and wait for the upgrades before making a final application of samples for a CD. In the meantime I've had a second request for performance rights.

All is good. :p

[RichR]

Thanks Gary for the comment and the reassurance of ARIA is coming! )(~

I do have the KP2 in the Finale 2009 folder or at least I thought it was there. I will check and let you know.

Michael, thanks for the in depth procedure for getting KP2 to work. I will work on that tomorrow. Been busy all day trying to get a challenge ready!*()*()