OT: Radio / CD ready mix from home possible?

[Munsie]

Do you guys think it is possible to produce a cd/radio ready mix from our home studios? There are so many studios offering to master your tracks I\'m wondering what I\'ll be missing if I do it all from home and not take my tracks to a \"real\" studio for final mixdown. I always use my favorite bands cd\'s as a comparision to my mixes and lately everything \"seems\" to be comparable. (Loudness, punchiness, etc.) Thank you for your thoughts on this.

[Bardstown Audio]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Munsie:
Do you guys think it is possible to produce a cd/radio ready mix from our home studios? There are so many studios offering to master your tracks I\'m wondering what I\'ll be missing if I do it all from home and not take my tracks to a \"real\" studio for final mixdown. I always use my favorite bands cd\'s as a comparision to my mixes and lately everything \"seems\" to be comparable. (Loudness, punchiness, etc.) Thank you for your thoughts on this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


With skill, experience, a room with good acoustics if your are tracking some live acoustic instruments, and quality equipment and software, definitely!

Kip
Bardstown Audio www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[Bardstown Audio]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bardstown Audio:

If you have proper skills, experience, a room with good acoustics if your are tracking some live acoustic instruments, and quality equipment and software, definitely!

Kip
Bardstown Audio www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Bardstown Audio]

[Bardstown Audio]

I did not mean to post three times. I was attempting to edit my first reply, and this thing got posted three times.

Kip
Bardstown Audio www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[Munsie]

Hi Kip!

Thanks for your comments. I was thinking, since everything is digital, I couldn\'t see how things would \"sound\" better in a real studio, but I may hire a sound engineer to visit the home studio and give me some final mix down tips. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I\'m now looking into some analog/tape plug ins to see what they can do for final mixes.

[Bardstown Audio]

Hi Munsie,

Great mastered audio music starts with good front end tracking. The better quality you can do on front end tracking, the less you need to do on final mastering.

Various mastering plug-ins on your final stereo tracks, such as tape saturation effects, multiband compression, eq, limiting, etc., can add that finishing touch and sparkle to your mix when used properly, but can destroy a mix if over-used and incorrectly applied. Some people are in the habit of automatically slapping on the same set of plug-ins on all of their final stereo track mixes for final mastering. Personally, I do not recommend developing this habit. Every mix is different and you should always rely on your ears and apply effects only when they are truly helpful. The less processing you can get by with, the better your final mastered mix will sound. \"Less is always more,\" regarding the amount of effects processing, and also the number of instruments and tracks in a mix. Just like a dash of salt can improve the taste of food, too much salt can make it uneatable.

Learning by experimenting with your mixes and comparing your mastered music with professionally mastered CD\'s is the best method for learning the art of mixing and mastering.

Kip
Bardstown Audio www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[Munsie]

Hi Kip!

Thank you for your comments, they are greatly appreciated. I agree that the better the source material the less post mixing/effects you will need to do, especially in a pure 100% digital domain. The only thing I\'m really having to \"post add\" is compression. Also, one thing I\'ve noticed about my mixes is since I\'m going through an external mixer and then to another computer for audio recording, my mixes do not seem as cold as other digital recordings I\'ve heard. Perhaps that is one easy trick to get a slightly warmer sound? I\'m now doing research on stereo expanders, volume maximizers, tape/analog plug ins, etc.
What a blast this home recording is... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Franky]

Hi Dave, you can get pretty good results form your own home studio but there\'s one thing you don\'t have in your home studio and i say this from experience it\'s objectivness, i get self absorbed in my bubble and sometimes it takes someone else to come in and say Ouwa ! what\'s going on with that bass... kind of thing. I say you can mix your projects but i usually say pay a trained mastering professional to do the final master, he can usually correct light errors caused by your acoustics in your home studio and inexperience.

I do professional mastering occasionally here in good ol\' Canada (for home studio record projects) and sometimes a second pair of ears can really bring a project to another level.

I am also a singer songwriter and when i\'m doing my stuff, even though i master for a living, i pay someone else to do it for that objectivness factor i talked about earlyer.

Just my 2 cents, good luck with your project Dave http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Franky
Vintaudio Productions www.vintaudio.com (\"http://www.vintaudio.com\")

[KingIdiot]

The debate on whether or not you can get \"Radio Ready\" mixes out of home studios has gone on for days. I really believe its more the song and arrangement than the mix, but all of Kip\'s comments hit it on the nose.

It all depends on the style of music as well. Multiband compresion is a good tool to get \"loud\" mixes, but is VERY easy to misuse. Ift first starts with good recordings, Then good miing, then good mastering. All of those in conjunction can get you a GREAT sound, and yes it can be done from home

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Munsie]

Hi KingIdiot! (Jeesh, I hate calling you an idiot in a public forum!) http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

As you know I\'m doing rock/pop music, so loud mixes are a must. I\'ve been applying individual compression settings on the bass drum, snare, cymbals, bass guitar, guitar, vocals. I pretty much leave everything else (pads/strings/synths) alone. Then after I do a mix down, I\'ll run the mix through a compressor setting used for final mixes. At this point is where I adjust it to be at it\'s loudest level possible. Could you explain what \"mastering\" does? Thanks....

[Munsie]

Hi Franky!

Yes, I agree that a second set of ears would probably shed some light on my mixes. Everytime I take a break from a mix and come back to it a few hours later, I seem to \"hear\" it differently and make additional tweaks. One thing I have learned is to mix at loud and soft volumes, it\'s amazing how different things \"sound\" when played at a softer volume.

By the way, your guitar libraries are totally rocking my music!! They\'re my main \"axe\" now! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Franky]

Great Dave http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif i\'m glad you like the guitar library.

Again, good luck with your project.

Franky
Vintaudio Productions www.vintaudio.com (\"http://www.vintaudio.com\")

[Bardstown Audio]

Years ago with the introduction of compression and limiting, the human tendency of having extreme dynamic range of volume on musical instruments and/or vocals, where certain notes could be either too soft or too loud, could be remedied with a certain degree of compression and or limiting.

Originally, in my opinion, compression and limiting was used responsibly and not to the extreme. Nowadays, most pop rock musicians and bands want to compress and hard limit the heck out of their music. Music which has been mastered and processed to this extreme has had the life taken out of it. It is more of a steady stream of noise, rather than music. Yet, many bands and musicians demand that studios and mastering engineers do this extreme and destructive process to their music.

Many musicians and bands have been conditioned over the years to think that this is a very good thing, and is exactly the way they want their music to be processed and mastered. We have heard so much bull crap over the years about \"hot radio ready\" mixes, that many people want to try to make their mixes hotter than the others. In their minds, they think that hotter is better, when actually in reality, they are destroying their music with extreme limiting and compression. This type of thinking goes back to an analogy I made in a previous posting on this thread, that a dash of salt can improve the taste of food, whereas an excessive amount of salt can make that same food uneatable.

The latest bull crap hype in the recording industry is that 96k or 192k sample rates are better than 44.1k or 48k sample rates.

There are several converters and audio recording programs on the market, which can do the higher sample rates. In most situations, recording at these higher sample rates, more is definitely not better. There are many cheap consumer grade 96k recording setups, which do not sound nearly as good as professional quality 44.1k or 48k sample rates. Even if you were to use an Apogee PSX 100 SE, which is one of the better, if not the best converter box on the market that can do these higher sample rates, the final master at 16 bit 44.1 does not sound as good as a session tracked at 24 bit 44.1 sample rate, because of the conversion process which has to take place in order to reduce down to audio CD quality. Recording at a sample rate of 88.2 and converted down to 44.1 may sound slightly better, but then again, that is a debatable issue.

Music that has been tracked at 24bit/96k and mastered to 24 bit 96k to DVD audio may sound slightly better when doing a side by side comparison to mastered 16 bit 44.1 audio CD\'s, which were track recorded at 24 bit 44.1k, if the music was \"front-end\" track recorded with high quality professional mics, pre-amps, and converters. If on the other hand, this same music was track recorded with consumer grade mics, pre-amps, and converters, the higher sample rate of 96k will bring out more of the flaws of the cheaper mics, pre-amps, and converters, and will not sound nearly as good, as the same consumer grade equipment being used on a session that was track recorded at 24 bit 44.1k.

Bottom line is this....high quality professional mics, pre-amps, converters, other high quality outboard gear, and a great sounding room to record in, account for over 95% of audio quality, whereas, recording at higher sample rates will only account for less than maybe 5% better audio quality when professional level gear is used on front end tracking. Furthermore, this only applies when the music is mastered to DVD audio at these higher sample rates without any conversions down to 44.1, but if this same music, which was tracked at 24/96, is taken down to 16/44.1, it will not sound as good as if this same music were track recorded at 24 bit 44.1 and then converted down to 16bit /44.1, which does not need to go through the uneven conversion process.

More does not always = better.

Kip
Bardstown Audio www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[Haydn]

King,

What are you using for multi-band compression/limiting. My friend uses TC Electronics Finalizer but it is a little pricey ($2,500) for my home studio.

[Simon Ravn]

Haydn, you can get a TC Powercore card for around $1000 instead http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif The MasterX plugin is a 3-band compressor like the one in the Finalizer (although Finalizer can use 5 bands, AFAIR). I am seriously considering getting a DSP card for VST plugins soon. I\'ll probably get the UAD-1 though. It doesnt have a multiband compressor, but I think it\'s just a matter of time before one comes along for it.

[KingIdiot]

Kip\'s comments are right on the nose.

wall of noise relly started to show up in Rock once the digital realm really picked up, and digital brickwall limiters started showing up. Once Waves introduced the L1 Everyone and their grandma (If she listened to white zombie) would SLAM their mixes. now that the finalizer is around....its jsut CRAZY.

Haydn,

The finalizer is a great unit. I actually dont own one. I used to actauly split my mixes up into 5 seperate bands and then puting compressors and/or limiters on the seperate bands then mix them back together.

Now, I either get my stuff profesionally done or use a combination of T-racks and Waves Rcomp or L1

I used to use a drawmer at a studio I sued to work t that is still one of my favorites.

T-racks isn\'t as much of a \"toy\" as people say. Especially in the latest versions. It has some nice features, and if you take the time to listen to what you\'re doing and make sure you dont over saturate.

It really depends on the type of music. Sometimes its worth mixing something too loud in the mix to get a nice breathing in the whole mix. or possibly mix something back knowing that compression will bring it out.

While people consider this just bad mixing, because you dont want to have to compress to \"fix it in the mix\" I find that the brathing that can occur can actually enhance music if it needs it.


If you guys want to hear some very over indulgent use of compressors and limiters check out www.karatehighschool.com (\"http://www.karatehighschool.com\") this is a friend of mine\'s band that recorded at my place for a few days. They loved things very loud (except vocals), so I drowning every thing in a chain of compressors.


Wall of noise? yes! Still people are in love with how the Songs sound. Because They can get it SOOO LOUD!!!!!

I think they are really nastily mixed and over compressed, not to mention too much reverb, ... the vocals are too quiet... and the guitars are WAY too loud. The cymbals are way too distorted from compressing the overs....but because of it the snare sounds nice and CRACK-ey. and blah blah, yah it could have sounded better, but I dont do live recordings at my place, so I dont have the mics and room, nor did I spend the time on it..... sigh.. disclaimers.. I\'ll shut up, just listen to the overuse of compression.

For compresion I\'m a bit more proud of in terms of \"loud\" mixes check out www.musicyouneed.com/stuff (\"http://www.musicyouneed.com/stuff\")

and listen to Searching for angels - Voice of Reason.mp3 and Throwing a fit. Voice of Reason sounds like it distorts a tad in the vocals because I mixed them with a bit too much mid range in the chorus and too much compresion on them in the first place. Other than that I actually like the mix, I feel there should be more dynamics in the \"you are the one\" section so when I remix it i\'ll bring it down a tad, especially the bass frequencies, so the chorus hits more.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[KingIdiot]

Munz,

Yeah, but I still love this handle http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Mastering\'s definition has really been tossed around as different things now.

I consider it the final polish of all songs on a project to get equal volume across all songs, trying to make the sound of the songs \"consistant\" in terms of brightness/muddiness (meaning one song can be done on a four track, but try my best to make it sound like it atleast has more air to sound closer to the song right before it and after it).

Nowaays, especially with rock/pop, it just seems to be how loud you can get your music without it sidtorting. Dynamics are generally stripped from songs....if they are even put in in the first place. The whole point used to be that on the radio people want their songs to jump out more than the last....which is usually easiest to do with volume. This is why you\'ll see Radio Edits on singles that are identical in terms of arrangment and length, but the sound is \"hotter\". Thing is that Radio stations also do compression on the stuff they broadcast, So volume shouldn\'t be key....but it still is to alot of people. its not always best to overcompress your songs on the CD, If you want them to be played on the radio, give the station a \"radio edit\" CD with more compression. Thats if its possible to do so.

I suggest getting a GREAT mix out of what you are doing already, then look into multiband compression/limiting. This allows for some even more find tuned volume maximizing with less \"breathing\". Brickwall limiting accross the board can really add alot of distortion to the peaks and or loud sustains if you\'re hitting the limiter hard. so Multiband helps alot with that.

When I\'m going for volume, I tend to use multiband compressor/limiter across the whole mix, then even a brickwall limiter to get leftover peaks to digital zero or -0.1

remember watch out for too much breathing in compresion and distortion in hard compresion/limiting.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Munsie]

Hey King, \"Searching for angels - Voice of Reason.mp3\" I noticed DBO was the author. I LIKE this song! Is this one of your original songs, and are you the singer and performer of all instruments as well? Tell me more! Also, if it is all you, what samples modules/samples did you use? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[tomhartman]

King, is that you on vocals on \"Searching\"? Nice lead sound.

Great song. If you put all that together in one day you are a better man than I. I would be working on a track like that for awhile....

Wouldn\'t worry about the hat, it\'s fine. I was really impressed with the drum work in particular. Kit sounded good and I think you are being too picky about the compression.

I often am hired to do covers of popular songs for a company that deals with this kind of thing, and I\'m continually amazed at how much compression is on everything nowadays. I\'ve been recording professionally since 1969, and compression has always been big in pop, but never so much as today. Sometimes , after squashing the life out of my track, I\'ll pop on the original to see how it compares, and more often than not, the original is compressed even more. It\'s gotten really over the top.

Anyway, great work as usual.

[KingIdiot]

Munz,

Glad you like it http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Yah, its all me. All the songs up there are things I\'ve either been working on the past year or demos I did for particualr projects I didn\'t end up getting. As for Voice of Reason, I encoded it and used DBO which is the post production studio company name I use for the projects I work on. Never came up with a perfect name for a band, tho I have an idea for the type of name I\'ll use for this particular project, since the whole idea is different than the \"band\" songs I want to do. Its a concept mixmode DVD I am writing. Which means some animation mostly audio, some images, and in surround. I also plan on recording about 40 musicians I know in my area, different guitar players, different drummers, etc, I wsnat to make it a fun project for people I know. Should be fun if I ever get around to finishing it. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif Its also encoded with the old Name. One of the names of the chracters was Steven Rhyme, which was forced for the name of the song. Also its not the best since all three chacracters are a part of this song.

The guitars and bass are real, direct through the POD. The synth bass patch is a tweaked out patch from my XP-30 with some formant shifting plug ins and riding the filter. The organ patch is a patch from the XP-30. The drums are a couple of patches from Real Mega Drums (I honestly cant remember which kits at the moment) with some verb on the mix. The repetativeness of the closed hi hat still bothers me. The vocals are real http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif Three tracks through an sm-57 and some mic modeling in the VS-1680, then some EQ on all three differently and different verbs for the different sections of the song.

I mixed in cubase, and threw it through T-racks and Waves L1.

Took about a day to put that together, I wanted to test an idea out I had about the vocal melody and lyrics. Came out pretty good IMO http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

That old metal orchestral mix song I mentioned some time ago (with too much verb in the mix) is also up there in that directory,....imperial metal mix. I remember you were interested in hearing it, which is actually the reason I put it up http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif you might get a kick out of it.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[KingIdiot]

Hey Tom,

yah its me. Lead tone? the guitar? Yah I love that tone too. Its my Ibanez 7 string and the neck pick up. One of my Ibanez 6 string (540s Series) has a KILLER neck pick up tone. Its smooth as butter. The 7 string has a raunchy bridge tone. Thars the sound on the imperialmetal song. I\'m not even picking super hard and I\'m actually picking closer to the neck, but it has all that Twang and punch. Crazy.

You should hear the midi stuff I used to do on my old DR-5 with drums. I did some wacky stuff ot make it sound real. I can program some mean rock/prog rock drums if I want. Now jazzy stuff, i become an idiot! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

The hi hat, still bothers me on the closed stuff because it sounds fairly mechanic. With the right/left hand stuff in Real GIGA Drums aqnd Pure Drums I\'m sure I can get a better sound. In fact with RGD I\'m sure I can get a REALLY realistic sounding hi hat sound.

With pop songs, yah the sound is usually REALLY compressed. Its sometimes fun to compare my light mixes to final mixes...but it tends to make me start to want to (or do) compress my mixes more to make them louder and more in your face. I\'ll even do it on orchestral music at times....pretty stupid...unless I\'m doing Media Ventures type stuff http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Thanks for the compliments

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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 12-31-2001).]

[Munsie]

King,

What can I say, Im blown away by your abilities! I loved the \"imperial metal mix\" piece. That is really cool and would fit in perfectly in any hard rock radio station rotation! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Too many questions such as, \"where\'s your cd\", \"why aren\'t you on the road doing concerts\", etc. Obviously you have plans to make a commercial cd at some point don\'t you? Rock on... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

p.s. I was going to send you a demo of one of my songs, but now I\'m totally intimidated! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[tomhartman]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KingIdiot:
[B]Hey Tom,

\"yah its me. Lead tone? the guitar? \"

Love the guitar (I\'m a guitarist too) but I was really talking about your vocal. Good voice, there.


\"The hi hat, still bothers me on the closed stuff because it sounds fairly mechanic. With the right/left hand stuff in Real GIGA Drums aqnd Pure Drums I\'m sure I can get a better sound. In fact with RGD I\'m sure I can get a REALLY realistic sounding hi hat sound.\"

King, do you think Purfect Drums would do as good a job or do you like Real Giga? I haven\'t played with either and am about to get something shortly. I was under the impression Purfect was the way to go....

[KingIdiot]

Tom,

Thanks for the compliment on the voice, its definitely the one thing I worry about with my music the most. I know I can get better with guitar, and change its tone, and same with the other instruments....but....vocals, you\'re kind of stuck with your voice http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I\'m still learning how to make my voice sound good....which is different than just singing my heart out. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Not to mention its not an everyday thing like it used to be for me, as well I\'ve been drinking a lot these holidays, so I try to stay away from singing when I\'ve had a bit of alcohol in my system.

About Purrfect drums. Everyone seems to be VERY happy with the cymbals and toms. I have so many Drum libraries now, and even have recorded my own kit (that I have never gone back to fully edit). So I\'ve been spending money I could spend on purrfect drums in other places. I\'m tempted to pick it up to see what all the hype about it is tho. I personally dislike the snare in every demo I\'ve heard of the library. Thats not saying much tho, because Waht I\'ve been hearing is unprocessed direct from giga which isn\'t a good representation of the library I\'m told,...since its supposed to take well to processing....

Honestly the reason I want to pick the library up is to do a demo of it with some processing, just so that there is a demo out there that might show what it could to if its pushed. kinda strange I know.... If I ever have any money to throw away (yah in this industry....sure) or Jim wants to throw me a free copy of the library in exchange for some demos (I dont see this happening either), I\'d be able to give you a better opinion on it.

About RGD, I like the control of the ambience with this library. However I dont think there is enough variation in the tone of the kits from the get go. With some processign and EQ,..yah it can sound great...but .... Pure drums is awesome for different variations...but its WAY TOO CLEAM, which is actually very nice for the hi hats in some cases http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I like the crack on alot of the snares in Real MEGA drums, but the velocity swtiches aren\'t enough and the room control isnt done as well in Real GIGA drums

If someone could combine the better aspects of all four of the above libraries I\'d be quite happy.

BTW I own Bob Clearmountain Drums 2 and dislike it very much. Even tho I find a use for it from time to time, its rearely to use in a real kit/band environment. There are some pretty cool uses of filters which give a unique sound to the snares. Fun to use with some electronic snare hits on 2/4 with rolls from Clearmountain.


Anyhow It depends on the style of music you do Tom, and the sound you want.

This topics gone way OT, I like the direction http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif but sorry Munz


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Really...I am an Idiot

[KingIdiot]

Munz,

WOW! Well thanks for the compliments and enthusiasm. Definitely makes me feel good http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I\'m not sure If I\'d agree with you about Imperial Metal being in Ahrd Rock radio rotation, especially with the mix it has. I did that for the hell of it with a few drinks in me. Was pretty fun. It was meant for just a weird demo of mixing styles for a video game. It is a pretty Kick *** sounding riff tho so I listen to it from time to time and smile.


Answers: http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Where\'s my CD? I\'ve played on a few local CDs and a few local bands. Nothing of my \"own\" released.

The road: I used to tour as a stand in guitar player for a few bands for the fun of it, as well in one of the bands I played in I did some playing around. now I\'m pretty focused on working as a composer/SFX designer. If I ever got into a band that started touring again I\'d have to take a serious break doing \"work\". Or I\'d have to have enough good people working for me to jsutify leaving for a bit, or doing bits of work on the laptop on the road. So no plans, but I would do it if the right circumstances came up, possibly when I finish a CD

Releasing a CD.Well, actually there are two plans going on simultaneously (not to mention them getting sidetracked because of work). One is a Concept mixmode DVD albumn. Its a full \"concept album\" with three characters and a pretty cool story. Its called Searching For Angels. I\'ve sotyboarded most of it so far, just trying to touch up ploit points and some lyrics on some songs. Another plan is to release a CD of all original songs more on the electronic Rock side. The style of music will be a little different than the concept DVD, so I plan to do it as a seperate entity. not sure when I\'ll finish them tho.

As for your demo, anyone here knows that I\'m always interested in hearing peoples music. Dont be intimidated, I have a bit of history with recording music in this style so I get lucky sometimes with certain songs http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Munsie]

King,

\"not sure If I\'d agree with you about Imperial Metal being in Ahrd Rock radio rotation, especially with the mix\"

I wasn\'t really concerned with the mix, the demo itself could be turned into a full blown rock song with no problem!

As far as being intimidated goes, yes I am, but I\'ll get over it. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif And since you have simliar music tastes to mine, (my music is more rock/popish than yours..) I would like to hear your comments. I\'ll tell you though, it\'s kind of weird to interact with people on this forum and then all of a sudden hear their music. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif However, in your case it is very cool for you to be able to back up your very knowlageable posts with some good music demos as well!

Keep those personal projects going, you obviously have some cool music to share with the world. The DVD project sounds very slick, but very lloonngg to finish. Again, that sounds really cool as well.

My stuff sounds almost too clear, I\'m going to have to run it through something to give it more of an edge to it. Any ideas?

I like the sound of your vocals! Vocals are still a problem to record for me. I\'m using a Shure KSM44 mic, which is good enough or better for the average home studio. I\'m running the mic to a Vocal Processor from TC-Helicon, the Voice Prism. Even though it has harmony features I don\'t use it. I sing all background parts live, anyway, I mainly use it for double tracking and adding thickness to my voice. It has a built in mic-preamp, I just run the out from the Voice Prism into my mixer and then into the sound card, but I still don\'t get that in your face, fat vocal sound that you need for rock music. Do you have any tips on getting a fuller lead vocal sound? I\'m considering running the mic into a tube mic pre-amp and then into the Voice Prism? I would appreciate your thoughts on this.

For mixing a typical rock track, what\'s your thoughts on panning?

Lead Vocals: Center
Back Vocals: Panned medium left and medium right
Bass Guitar: Center
Guitars: Doubled, etc, hard left and hard right
Bass Drum: Center
Snare: Center
Hi Hats: Slightly Left
Toms: right to left (high to low)
Cymbals: Stereo Depending on cymbal position
Synths/Pads: Same as guitars

I may try fattening the drums up with doubling, do you ever do that? Thanks for all your thoughts!

\"This topics gone way OT, I like the direction, but sorry Munz\"

Not all all, this topic is still about creating good mixes from the home studio. Hey, it it gives you a slight ego boost as well, nothing wrong with that! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

p.s. Munz - I havn\'t been called that since high school.. <sniff>! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[KingIdiot]

Munz,

Atleast it wasn\'t Munzter http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif I went through and am still going through a few nick names. Chief, Beef, \'shif, Bob (ex girlfriend), Ash, and Evil (current girlf friend http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif short for evil ash from Army of Darkness). Kind of funny how people just find one and go with it.

Again thanks for the compliments. I definitely need this kind of stuff to help me realize people (not jsut friends) are interested in this stuff.

About mixes soudning too clear. I think the main problem is that you are doign it all through samples. Most libraries are recorded too \"clean\" which is my main concern, alot of times \"character\" is lost. Which is why I lie RGD so much just a touch of the room ads character again. Its not only room tho, its also sample playability and if the library has enough building blocks to make a real performance. You can try mixing each individual track with a bit of acoustic modeling or play them through your speakers/monitors and record them again with a mic to capture some \"room\". This is one of the, if not the, main thins to consider. Tube and Tape saturation all occurs after room ambience. Dont only consider using tube tape satruations/analog modeling/etc on the mix, try it on individual tracks.

IMO you\'re enver going to get the most realistic Rock performance for guitar and bass from the available libraries. they are designed to be all around libraries so far. If you can get atleast one player in to play over the samples or repleace the samples (or play some of the simpler parts ourself) yor songs will love you for it.

The vocals on that song were recorded with three passes. On with a high shelf one with a low shelf and one EQ\'d to taste. Ths way layering things didn\'t jsut have power, it added character. I also compressed the living hell out of the verse and sang very breathy without a pop screen on two and facign atad to the side. Right up on the mic to catch all the breathing. Its srt of overexageratted but thats what I was going for.

The chorus is limited pretty hard with me singing a few more inches away. 3 voices again. Lower voice panned slightly left and right and higher harmonie center. Reverb patched only to return Center channel. This caused a bit of problem because I mixed the send a little too hot on the verb so its kind of harsh sounding. As well on the end/fall of some notes its too gutteral and noisy, ned to edit that. If you\'ve ever listened to Dream Theater, listen to Caught in a web\" from Awake. The vocals ave this very cener mix with verb that sounds likw what I was going for.

Tube Pres are great, but over rated. It relly depends on the vox and sound of the song. The amount of chracter added by some of the cheaper tube pres is negledgible in louder rock mixes. In fact sometimes it makes the vocal too muddy and los tin the mix. Proper EQ agains;t the music and better REverrb/delay use is more important IMO. As well as compression and DeEssing. I\'ve been considering the voise prism for over a year now, is thta voice modeling chip out for it now? Would be great for some of the work I do.

You\'re panning seems pretty \"stadard\" and perfect. I\'d thing more 3-d and put the drums back a tad in the depth spectrum (except kick). Do this with Reverb wet/dry mixes or \"pre\" fader sends. This will collapse the L-R image a bit as well, but this is what I like. It give the drums a \"space\". Do this with all the instruments you want to have a \"space\". Remember to always think first about the 3-d and L-R placement you WANT first and then think EQ and mixing, then adjsut placement again.

Doubling drums is waht I do a lot. But not sut straight doubling. I usually only double the loud hits, and one layer with soft htis, orpossibly two layerswith on being low shelved for more snare chain sound. In fact if I ant I could to this against kick drums to get sympathetic chain soudns from the kick drum.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Munsie]

King, (Hail to the....nah.. ) http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

\"Atleast it wasn\'t Munzter..\"

That was one of many. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

\"Ash, and Evil (current girlf friend short for evil ash from Army of Darkness).\"

What a kick *** series of movies eh? Man I wish they would do a new sequel! I just saw LOTR and saw a small Blade 2 sequel preview. Cool!

\"Again thanks for the compliments. I definitely need this kind of stuff to help me realize people (not jsut friends) are interested in this stuff.\"

No problem, I\'m on a slow dial up so I couldn\'t download everything on your site, do you have any complete rock/pop songs I could take a listen to? Give me a link if so.

\"About mixes soudning too clear. I think the main problem is that you are doign it all through samples.\"

Granted that is true, and it is something I will have to live with for now. The \"clearness\" actually isn\'t that bad when the vocals are laid down over the music. Also, when I add some character (fret noise, chugs, slides, etc..) to the guitar tracks at mix down it really improves the realism.

\"IMO you\'re enver going to get the most realistic Rock performance for guitar and bass from the available libraries.\"

Agreed 100%, I think if I was doing instrumental music the realism factor would even be more important.

\"If you can get atleast one player in to play over the samples...\"

Yes, I am still considering this. Email me how much you would charge to do some rythm tracks for me on a song per song basis. Typical song being anywhere from 3:30 to 4:30. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Thanks for the details on the vocal mix, really opens up how limited my mixing skills are.

\"I\'ve been considering the voise prism for over a year now, is thta voice modeling chip out for it now? Would be great for some of the work I do.\"

I was actually one of their first customers. I \"like\" the unit, but it doesn\'t really jump out at me to be honest. I\'m now looking into other vocal units that may help in the rock vocal area. I need to fatten up my voice big time. The VP has some excellent harmony modes, they work better in live situations where you can fool the listener better. But I will never use the harmony features on any of my tracks, I prefer to sing each part. The voice modeling chip is out now, but I haven\'t purchased that yet, because that just might be too much cheating in my opinion. Adding growl, vibrato, air to a voice that does not have that at all, kinda weird.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Your mixing tips are very cool, do you ever mix other artists music? If so, email me how much per song and what you would need. I\'m just curious. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Doubling - could you verify what you mean by that? Here\'s what I do on rythm guitar tracks. I\'ll take the rythm track, copy it, make one track hard panned to the left, the other track hard panned to the right, and then slightly alter the right track. (higher pitch, edited eq, slightly delay the starting point, etc.) With lead vocals I usually just add a slightly detuned version over the main vocal to add some fullness. I\'ve never doubled the drums, but I bet you could get some massive sounding drums with proper doubling! Could you (if possible) describe in detail your doubling technique for drums?

Thanks for all your tips and knowlage. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[KingIdiot]

hehhe...Isn\'t hail to the King the next in the Evil Dead series? Its a video game and it continues after Army of Darkness. Iatleast I think Hail is the games\' title, I know for sure it continues the story from where AoD left off. Wasn\'t too happy with the game tho.

I think the modeler chip of the VP would be awesome for some of the work I do. Plus you know me I\'m very much into formant shifting. Its even in Voice of Reason in one part. There is a very LIGHTLY feathered in female voice on the line \"you are the one\" singing/speaking along with my voice. It has to do with the three characters in the story of the music. Not to mention other facts that make it even cooler for the story http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Vocals are something that I struggle with to this day. Its more because I\'m listening to my own voice. I used to think I needed to \"fatten\" up my voice all the time, until I realized its because I wasn\'t comfortable with it. Once I became a bit more comfortable with it I realised that I could make it better with better singing and emotion. Not to mention it helped me find what best to exploit in my voice during mixing. Instead of just singing and trying to fix it in the mix.

I dont mix other peoples music anymore. I\'m never \"into\" it as much as I need to be. ITs always a \"side gig\" that always killed how much effort I put into the work. Its just that there wasn\'t enough money in it to justify me taking out the time I need to put torwards mixing out of the work of getting more work composing http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif. Case in point, the Karate High School stuff, rushed because I was busy with other stuff.

Part of mixing is taking a break from the music or music alltogether and coming back to listen. Maybe you need to fix things, maybe you need to start over. To me its part of the game.

Doubling.....

well, simple doubling like \"copy track add effects/detune\" is \"ok\". but what I like to do is actually resing the line with vocals multiple times. This adds a different sort of width than jsut simple doubling. It takes practice to double lines closely, as well as good mixing, but the results are, more than often, more satisfying than simple doubling.

Same with guitar. Which is why just copying a MIDI track will sound to \"perfect\". You\'re going to have to add different \"human\" feels to the MIDI tracks through out. Move MIDI notes around slightly, use different samples (still too perfect IMO...attacks are too unified).

If you MUST use the same track to double or thed sampe samples. A trick to do is to use a tad of chorus and \"ride\" the depth control and rate control with out any dry signal. And compress the hell out of it, then add some more of your own volume envelopes in the mix. Or use the VP\'s \"doubling\" effect if it has one. Ot probablyt varies the amount of pitch shift randommly for a more \"human\" sound.

Still it never sounds as good a tracking with multiple passes.

About drums and doubling. It happens all the time. Lots of produces use drum triggers on acoustic snares (or trigger from audio track) to trigger snare drum samples. If the acoustic snare has an ok tone, lots of engineers/producers put the triggerd snare(s) on top of the acoustic one. Sometime its replaced all together.

You should check out recording websites like www.prorec.com. (\"http://www.prorec.com.\")

I also learned a hellofa lot from www.vsplanet.com. (\"http://www.vsplanet.com.\") Tho I joined up when there were somewhere around 100 members or something.

Best place tho is enxperience and trial and error, I learned more from this more than anything.

As practice, try your best to simulate mixes you like, or even SONGS you like. Its done wonders for me in the orchestral realm, and would do wonders for anyone in any musical genre.

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Really...I am an Idiot