Vibratro on strings

[Kees Rotteveel]

L.S.,


I am very disappointed in trying to reduce the vibrato of the solo strings, to find out that it is not possible, because it is recorded that way and part of the basic waveforms.


Why not recorded in ppp up to fff (long>short) as long as the bow permits without any loop. All needed notes in legato after another and than breaking apart on the natural silent points. It is the skill of the professional to change the direction of the bow with the smallest possible audible gap or attack, unless specific pointed to as in Sfz or marcato etc. In fact -looking at the violin player- the bow stays most of the time on the string, killing the last note (release only on open or leaved string) and in a mirrored, parabolic curve starting the new note, so a controlled and parabolic curved attack is more realistic then a longer 'length' to get a legato. And if you can't without vibration: on strings it is apparently not a change in volume but in pitch.


A point so common that it seems to have less attention. A violin sounds different in an attic, bathroom or (crowded) concert hall. So reverb is not simply a kind of decay but also a sound shaper. Technically it is the interference between objects and the vibrating air. But more of interest for musician or composer/arranger is the relation between instruments and voices in an orchestra. For example do I refer to the high staccato notes of the soprano in a well known piece by Mozart which blend excellent with the flute and, if well conducted, produce a third sound, stronger than both sounds apart. And that is the soul of the symphonic orchestra: 1+1=3. This is close harmony and the real feeling of “riding the clouds”

Maybe, in future, can there be a developing of some VST-engine to put some algoritme on two or more instruments in the final mix to produce these natural interferences.....?


If you are not deaf than notice how a singer with vibrato becomes a standalone sound with the orchestra as a kind of background noise. The same is true for the string players who came from the Parkinson College. What is it? Gaining same time to craw to the right pitch? If so, than go home and play the mandolin. Vibrato is the out most killer of any interference with other instruments.

Besides time interference is the most important job of the conductor; finding the balance, and if he or she has the guts to forbid vibrato, the for everyone audible overtones in 1+1=3. It is always there, whether you like it or not, if you hear it or not, it simply is the nature of sound and air.



I suggest a new, modern notion: Vibrato stands for a big ego, but a very small musician.


May be, if possible, the recordings should be redone. Speaking for myself, I am willing to pay for the huge amount of work to get it done and, then, perhaps an upgrade.....?


with friendly greetings,
Cees Rotteveel.

[swinkler]

I think I remember Gary saying controllable vibrato on solo strings is going to be one of the new features in the upcoming Aria GPO upgrade.

Steve Winkler

[Garritan]

Until recently it was not possible to have vibrato and dynamic crossfades on solo strings. When you crossfade between dynamic levels (pp to fff) you would get phasing and doubling during crossfades. Even the very expensive libraries costing many thousands could not provide vibrato control and dynamic crossfades with solo strings. The Solo Strad and the GigaViolin solved these problems. In GOS2 there will be vibrato controlled solo strings. We have developed some new technology and licensed real-time morphing to make expression even better in the future.

Gary Garritan

[Kees Rotteveel]

[QUOTE=Kees Rotteveel;615791]L.S.,


Gentlemen,


If I knew how, I would start a worldwide crusade against vibrato and a forum seemed to be the place to start a discussion.


To me vibrato is cheap as in easy, lack of phantasy and above all not musical. A vibrating sound will never blend with the straight sound of an orchestra.


Listen to the female singer Montserat -up and down almost a semitone, no binding at all with the background. So many times there are given notes by the composer to be sounding in unison with the singer, then why don't they???


Or the young Japanese cello player (I forgot his name) vibrating all the way in the same tempo.
It sounds so stupid. Why does nobody warn him that it is ugly.


So, please, Mr. Garritan, give me in the solo players part (i.e. 3 violins, 9 players etc.) the whole bow in length according to volume without any vibration. There will be enough 'drifting' to hold the sound interesting and expressive. It is up to the skill of your real string players.


To me, vibration is not that important. Surprise me with a serene string sound at pp, a little bit floating, yes, but no attack or bow change heard, no loop, but players alternate together and definitely no vibrato.


Kees Rotteveel

[bigears]

User control over vibrato is the main thing. Once available, the users tastes can dictate the use and amount of vibrato, depending on the musical setting and instrument ensemble. Looking forward to GPO4 and the new technology!
John

[keithjfuller]

PLEASE, NO MORE REQUESTS!!! They might take GPOA back into the shop and it will be years until we get another update!!!

[dermod]

I sense this guy is trying to flame.

[Pingu]

Maybe, in future, can there be a developing of some VST-engine to put some algoritme on two or more instruments in the final mix to produce these natural interferences.....?

Those natural interferences are things that happen because of the way the sound has got from the instruments to you. They don't happen everywhere in the concert hall, and they certainly don't happen up close near the instruments. You'd need to use reverb plugins to simulate it.



If you are not deaf than notice how a singer with vibrato becomes a standalone sound with the orchestra as a kind of background noise. The same is true for the string players who came from the Parkinson College. What is it? Gaining same time to craw to the right pitch? If so, than go home and play the mandolin. Vibrato is the out most killer of any interference with other instruments.


I suggest a new, modern notion: Vibrato stands for a big ego, but a very small musician.


I'm confused as to where you're coming from. Have you ever actually listened to an orchestra? Reverb is the default state of all string sections and several wind instruments. Most books on orchestration consider the instruction 'senza vibrato' to be a special effect. It's nothing to do with ego, or covering up inadequacies, it just gives a fuller tone. When you're putting together a budget orchestra such as GPO, you have to make certain choices about which articulations you can afford to record; if it comes down to whether to have vibrato or non-vib strings, I don't think anyone in their right mind would choose the non-vib. It makes for a really feeble tone in most circumstances.

[Kees Rotteveel]

Flame?.. a good joke, thanks.


I intend only to point at a bad thing that has become a habit over the years. In times of the great composers there was no vibrato: there is the mordent, the praller or tremolo. And 'senza vibrato' means, the composer got angry.:)


Listening to music our brain hears to whole thing, included the noise around you. However, your attention -if not focused- is drawn to the movements of the sound, meaning, the new notes, the change in volume, the change of solo (instrument) and thereby to vibrato.


Now, with this in mind, listen to a piece of music where there is a some vibrato (string or voice). Notice how your attention is (to much) drawn to the movement of the vibrato.


Now listen again, but focus your ears on the orchestra. Hear the gap between the vibrating sound and the straight sound of the orchestra. Listen, how the composer cries out loud: play with us, not besides us. I am not against all vibrato, but used carefull and the less, the better.
Yes, vibrato can be a great tool to pull out a phrase or sense, but to many times it is not that but only a habit.


I rest my case. I keep hoping for straight basic waveforms in the individual string players - with the normal expression that comes with the whole movement of the bow. I keep hoping for the development of a kind of VST instrument with which you can provide interference between the instruments in the audio mixdown. Believe it or not, but my intentions are only improvement to reduce, a little bit more, the great difference between life and computer. And whether it is GPO4, 5, 6 or 7, I really don't mind.


With best regards,
kees rotteveel.

[bigears]

Hi Kees, Fair enough, I agree that the use of vibrato needs to be tasteful and
carefully controlled, and it is a good subject for discussion.
I forgot to welcome you to this forum and the community! I think there was a little trepidation about where your original post might be going.

I hear sometimes a wide, fluctuating vibrato in some operatic singers that I find disagreeable. In a solo string player, it has to get pretty overbearing before it bothers me much. It also depends on the musical genre, sometimes it seems exactly the right effect to me and helps project a certain mood (romantic, sentimental, sad).

My musical dictionary has this definition:
Vibrato (It.) Recurrent subsidences and swells in a tone. On string instruments the slight fluctuation of pitch produced on sustained notes by an oscillating motion of the left hand. In singing,a scarcely noticeable wavering of tone.

[LFO]

Hello Kees and welcome to the forum!
I hear your points and agree with much of what you say, though I think I prefer a bit more vibrato than you. The beauty of it is that music is subjective and there is no right or wrong, there is only that which pleases you. :)

As Gary indicated, the main culprit for not providing vibrato options has been technical. I think you will find pleasant options in the near future as these technical barriers are being overcome. Someday we will all look back and say `How could we ever program without x and y and z available to us?' We'll then all smile and be glad that companies like Garritan have provided us with such powerful tools.

Of course, we will all need 24 way processors with 300 gig of RAM to do it, but that is another story. :)

-Kevin

[Raymond62]

Hello folks, this is in Dutch, so don't be offended, please.

Kees, ik ben het helemaal met je eens. Ooit had ik cello lessen van een lid van het Residentie Orkest en omdat ik al ruime ervaring had met de piano kon ik redelijk snel tot de kern van de zaak doordringen. De belangrijkste les was, dat als je niet in staat bent om een toon zuiver en zingend aan te strijken, je een eventueel vibrato wel kunt vergeten - vibrato is geen instrument om onzuiverheden te maskeren.. Jammer genoeg heeft GPO teveel vibrato in niet alleen de solo strijkers. Ik hoop tenzeerste dat dit met de volgende update door ons zelf te regelen valt.


Recap: I agree with him. I had cello lessons and one of the first laws was that when you can not produce a note clear and pure, forget about vibrato. Vibrato is used to mask impurities in playing techniques too often.
I'll hope that the next update gives us handles to set our preferences om vibrato.


Raymond

[DarwinKopp]

Hi Kees!

You sound like a devoted disciple of conductor Roger Norrington. And there's nothing wrong with that, in an historical sense. Unfortunately, we live in the present.

The evolution of the orchestral timbre to the use of vibrato is a fact, not an accident or mistake. The tone and expressive capabilities of both the ensemble and soloists within are immensely expanded through the use and variation of vibrato.

The only fault of the vibrato in the GPO solo instruments is that it cannot be varied, not its inclusion. Truly, purchase a used copy of the Strad or Gofriller and you may dispense with the vibrato settings entirely.

Regards,
Darwin

[Kees Rotteveel]

Thanks to all of you for your reactions. I still feel the need to point out the main purpose of this discussion.


After listening to the sounding of a life orchestra (in my case the Dutch Koninklijk Concertgebouw Orkest), sitting behind my computer, I wonder what is it, what makes the sound so greatly different with GPO. Till now I can think of; reverb is a 'colour' besides decay and there is always interference between every sound, the magic of air and environment. An important thing too is nature itself: chaos, (human ordered) disorder, variety and randomness, in short: change, movement!


All this I want in my computer, bringing the dead digital sound alive, aware that at the moment things are not possible, yet! But that does not matter, there is no honour nor blame for anybody. It is simply time, growth, development where we all should ask for. So, don't feel stepped on your toes by my words, but help me, help us, think, ask and point out ideas in the approach of reality. I do not want to pretend that I know it all, perhaps you think of better ways. Or, perhaps, programmers are already busy with things. So far, among others, Mr. Garritan has given me in GPO a fine thing to play with, so, for me it is time to say: “Monsieur... chapeau!” And some day, there will be that little whiz kid with those thick pair of glasses ;-) shy, pulling the jacket of Mr. Garritan: “mister Garritan..... mister Garritan..... sir..... I think... I know... how I can translate these phenomena into computer language”
That will be the day!!!



Finally, vibrato. A matter of taste, yes. But let us find out if there are some guidelines to make and than refine them. Let us start with;
None, if there is another instrument playing the same notes. Here the composer seems to me to demand harmonics, to reach for audible overtones as I meant with 1+1=3.
None, if there is a clear presence of a second voice. Question and answer, the conversation, the relation in the 'picture or story' of the piece. Here also is a demand for a way of harmonics.
Short and semi short notes, normally already without, where most of them are ornamentation. It is busy enough and one should try to keep the meaning of the whole phrase clear as possible.
Yes, with the longer 'free' notes. However, beginning straight and then building up rate and depth. This can give both player and audience the necessary variation.

I think a real singer, string player or conductor can contribute here better than me. We do not want a machine-gun tremolo, well, I do not want a machine-gun vibrato.


Lots of inspiration, and friendly greetings,
kees rotteveel.

[dermod]

OK, not a flame then. But, it being Sunday, now let us pray. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9ggQnbGOjU&feature=related

[Michael_uk]

Hello Kees and I add my welcome to our forums,

I must say that I have a great deal of sympathy with your feelings on this. I too feel that in so many performances vibrato is used far in excess. I feel that singers and violin soloists are particularly guilty of this. So often, when listening to opera or, say, a violin concerto, the soloist applies such heavy vibarato that listeners can take their pick of which note is supposed to be heard!

Regarding the argument that orchestral strings would sound incomplete or strange without it doesn't hold good for me. Throughout Baroque and early Classical times vibrato was not applied indiscrimminately as it is today. It was regarded as an 'ornament' and used at appropriate moments just like any other ornament. In fact, Mozart's father, Leopold, wrote a violin manual which became famous. In it, he described violinists who used vibrato as '.. if shaking with the palsy .. ' Whenever I listen to works played by 'period' ensembles' such as 'The Academy of Ancient Music' when vibrato is applied as it was originally used, the music sounds so much better to me.

I wish you good luck in your crusade. :)

[Haydn]

Vocalist vibrato can get really wild. I was recording a guy from work a couple nights ago. His vibrato can get quite excessive at times. We were doing some pitch correction on a couple notes. So I was showing him how far above and below pitch his vibrato goes. He was actually going a minor 3rd above and below the pitch at times! We tamed some of the notes so they were only going about half as far which sounded much better.

Jim

[Kees Rotteveel]

The more I think about things, the more I get excited. So, if you say: “shut up, you have made your point!” or if the direction goes beyond the meaning of the forum, I will; it is the last time, promised. I can only say that I have no one else to discus these things with.


Well, last night, in a kind of dream, I remembered that at a moment when I was young, I had two gramophones -one of my older brother and my own- and two the same records of a symphony by Beethoven. In a impulse I played them both at the same time and gave one of them a little delay... then I became almost overwhelmed by the effect. That moment I found a miracle in sound and air, but never have I done something, nor could I, with that knowledge. In later years I heard the close harmony of the swingle singers. It confirmed me that two voices in some tension produce a third sound, stronger then both single, apart, but heavenly depending on each. I began to call that the audible overtones: 1+1=3 and I found them back in the sound of the orchestra. Now a days they are to me the diamonds of music, the not existing, but real living soul of the orchestra! And..... is it ME? That what I call me, does it exists? Is “I” an overtone of the brain??? Is it nature, important, underestimated? And right at this point I hear vibrato against the straight sound of the orchestra sweeping away those overtones. Here 1+1=2, and most of the time, the same cadence, a bit boring. Sorry.


I do not know of any audio system or computer program (yet) that gives me back those overtones. So, if I could make an orchestra for the computer, I would record the real thing. Not one player sitting at different chairs, let's say nine. Within the computer that mix will always remain a compact-9-individual-sound. For example, the first violin section; (but it counts for all instruments, except the soloists, normally not pointed at the conductor, but, as I am also the audience, the need to be recorded as usual.)

Only one (surround) microphone, as close as possible near the position of the head of the conductor. That way gives me the fun to be that conductor, arranger, composer and audience, all in one. It gives the first violin player (my concert master ;-) a more direct sound, where as the last three players in the back become more coloured by the reflection of the hall, gaining distance and thereby dropping in volume and getting a tiny, natural delay. This total, complex sound is the only one with natural, living overtones -Each kind of instrument, recorded as one solo and one section sound sitting on the right chairs.


It's a dream, I know, and maybe those complex sounds make impossible, bad sounding chords. And I know that there are still no interferences between instruments of different family.
I only show you my hope, that some day.....


Some day the question arise, are we steeling the skill, the bread or soul of the orchestras? Will amateurs like me make the musicians hesitate to give the real thing away, as we fool around with it? Perhaps, yes, but there are no new pieces coming from the past. And after the tenth time hearing the Bolero by Ravel or the Peer Qynt Suite times 88, I must hold myself not to throw my radio out of the window. Searching the internet or, warm recommended, the Garritan musician site, arrangers can find new music, new composers or maybe people like me, spending their time with the fun of making music, impatient or to lazy to write arrangements ;-) And, no way, that life music, the magic of the living orchestra would no longer be heard or wanted.


So far, so good. Now, I think that I have made my point, so,
goodbye, lots of inspiration and all the best wishes,
kees rotteveel.

[Jeannot Welter]

"It confirmed me that two voices in some tension produce a third sound, stronger then both single, apart, but heavenly depending on each. I began to call that the audible overtones: 1+1=3 and I found them back in the sound of the orchestra."

It's called "Obertonverschmelzung", literally "melting of harmonics".

JW.

[qccowboy]

I'm sorry, I've been making music for over 40 years now (28 of those professionally), both with instrumentalists and with singers.

I agree that "bad" singers hide bad technique with overly-dramatic vibrato.

However, I would have to take exception to your description of vibrato in the orchestra.

If a string player comes to me to perform a piece and has no vibrato at all, then he is demonstrating a lack of skill with his instrument. The development of proper vibrato is one of the most painstaking apprenticeships in the orchestra.

You err in saying that "no vibrato" is what is required when "another instrument is playing the same notes". The vibrato IS what makes the sound of the orchestra.

And the vibrato is also what makes the sound of an amateur orchestra what it is. An amateur orchestra plays with little to no vibrato because its players are deficient and incapable of producing a normalized vibrato. Short or long, string notes should contain vibrato. If they do not, it creates that "white" sound which we all associate with "bad violinists".

I have NO idea where this deification of non-vibrato playing comes from. I personally blame the "period instruments" brigade for the pretension that this is somehow "superior" performance technique (yes, Nikolaus Harnoncourt, I'm looking at you!)

[rbowser-]

Michel, I think you put the capper on this. I totally agree with you. Silly stuff, complaining about Vibrato from Violinists. "White noise" of non-Vibrato amateur string players- perfectly described.

Randy

[Frank D]

Guys,

I simply ask that, under certain conditions, you consider string sections playing without vibrato as a color of the orchestra and not necessarily as an amateurish performance.

Bernard Herrmann, possibly one of the greatest colorists of orchestration ever, often insisted that his string cues be performed without vibrato. It was often a losing battle as the 'normal' orchestra string player uses vibrato as naturally as he/she breaths air. But a listen to some of his more dramatic string cues (Vertigo, Fahrenheit 451, et al) will amply demonstrate that large bodies of strings playing sans vibrato is an orchestral color worth hearing.

In the pop/standards world, Johnny Mandel often uses high, unison strings playing without vibrato ... and it too is a very dramatic sound in the context of a full orchestration (he also will use flutes and low woodwinds played without vibrato).

I too enjoy vibrato and have come to expect it as part of the natural color of most instruments (horns excepted!), but I can also appreciate the fresh colors as mentioned above. And I can fully appreciate why it is difficult for a library/developer to give us flat-to-gypsy schmaltz vibrato with the flick of a wheel ... but maybe in the future ... hmmmmm.

Regards,

Frank

[Kees Rotteveel]

My very first questions have been answered already a long time ago. The suggested technical improvements about sound, well, I have made my point and hope to have inspired the programmers a little bit. For the last part, the discussion about vibrato is not realy an issue of the GPO forum. We do not want to misuse the hospitality, so if someone know a place where this discussion can be continued, let us know. In the meantime I ask the moderator to close this topic and thanks for all contributions.

Back to reality! I have to tell my musicians of the G.P.Orchestra that number 4 is on its way. And then some rules are going to be changed! Oh yes! Maybe as composer I am a bit shy, but as conductor I have to be strict but fair, restricted in the aim for perfection, but that, they do not know! So, yes, yes, I know... its time..... to visit my shrink ~|


have fun,
kees rotteveel.

[rbowser-]

Very well taken response, Frank. You're right, that strings without vibrato can be used to great effect, especially for an eerie atmosphere. And your example of Bernard Herrmann being a master with the effect is perfect.

So yes, it would be nice to be able to get that effect with our instruments. The discontinued Garritan Stradivari and Gofriller Cello could be used for what you're talking about, but a lot of folks aren't fortunate enough to have grabbed those libraries while they were briefly available.

Randy