Again for Horst and Thomas Newman fans

[KingIdiot]

http://www.musicyouneed.com/stuff/forhorst (\"http://www.musicyouneed.com/stuff/forhorst\")

I took an hour to mock up the intro to one of the Shawshank redemption cues.

I didn\'t pend enough time tweaking to perfect it, but this time I started out mimicing somethign that already existed.

You can see what an hour of work with GOS will give you. I personally think the reverb on my cue is the main problem. There isn\'t enough \"space\" in it. The cue itself is pretty close.

I played with the tempo track to get a more \"human\" performance. There are areas that i should have added some more dynamic swells and touched up the legato. The hour spent was also with reverb and EQ.

I\'ve uploaded both the actaul Cue, and aGOS version. IMO Its pretty good. I ahve another idea for getting that softer Pianimmisso sound, which I will try later. I wanted to get teh expression close to the mark first.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[KingIdiot]

I threw up a second version with a little more EQ and added some reverb. Might sound better now.

Tho I could be wrong...spending too much time focusing on one thing and misin another

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Really...I am an Idiot

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
I threw up a second version with a little more EQ and added some reverb. Might sound better now.

Tho I could be wrong...spending too much time focusing on one thing and misin another

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Super job. Great example of what can be done with this great set.

Do you mind saying which patches you used to do this? thanks...

[Tokyo Joe]

King,

Great job, sounds fantastic. I too would be VERY interested in finding out which GOS patches you used. Any chance of uploading the midi file?

[KingIdiot]

Thanks guys.

I used Violin Gr Detache, SusNV/Sus VIB EXP, and Sul Tasto short bows as well as SUS EXP LEG. I mixed in the Sulstasto for a \"bow change\" sound with the EXP LEG legato sounds.

I\'ll upload the MIDI file in a few minutes

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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 11-19-2001).]

[KingIdiot]

MIDI file is up. I used a few tracks to do this. I think there may be more than I needed to be honest, but I was trying a few things, so I left them all in.

Since the notes playd on on of the violin sections is expressive, I used th GR detache sounds, you can see how i made them sstaing longr in the MIDI file. the other section I used a combination of Sordino and NV to VIB.

Nearly ALL notes are Quantized. In fact I step wrote this sucker, and added expression after the fact. Another factor in it taking about an hour.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Z6]

Wow! That sounds wonderful. It lets me hear what all the GOS fuss is about - well done, and thanks.

[PatS]

Well done, King! I enjoyed the comparison, as well as Newman\'s elegant and haunting counterpoint. Thanks for the MIDI file.

Pat

[Damon]

Cool King! One of my favorite scores and cues. Finish it because it was just about to get to the part where I get chill bumps http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif.

[KingIdiot]

HA.. No way am I
going to finish it. It was jsut a test. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif After that part is where it gets into woodwinds and possibly some horns. I MAY do that part just because it also gives me chills, but, as I am doign this by ear, and have a hard time telling what voicings are used when there are a lot of isntruments playing... I probably wont ever feel comfortable doing it. It would be a good learning excercise tho.

In Doign this little part I\'ve put some of the tricks I\'ve been doign wth GOS to the test,a dn also leaned a bit at how to acheieve different sounds and attacks. Only with doing these types of excercises regularly will I learn to use this library to its fullest potential,

I\'d like o note that If I were doing the piece without restrictions of jst using GOS, I\'d also layer in a solo violin somewhere...if I had a good sample. A pianimisso sample with some excessive vibarto would be wonderful to layr in heere and there.

Also I realised tht I wrote qtr notes for the sordino violins, when it should have been one whole a qtr and then a dotted half. for the first two bars. I cold have added a lot more expressivenes to that line. Oh well. Learning to train my ears for this crap.

Possibly next on the list is a big action cue with sort bows.... yah.. one day. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

I\'m glad people are starting to see the potential of his library. Only good things are going to come out of using it if people take the time to learn it.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 11-19-2001).]

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
In Doign this little part I\'ve put some of the tricks I\'ve been doign wth GOS to the test,a dn also leaned a bit at how to acheieve different sounds and attacks. Only with doing these types of excercises regularly will I learn to use this library to its fullest potential,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please take copious notes and compile them into a \"GOS Power User\'s\" manual for those of us who lack the \"tweak and layer\" gene. But don\'t use a spell checker: I\'ve grown rather fond of your unique and delightful manner of spelling. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 11-19-2001).]

[KingIdiot]

I\'m glad someone gets a kick out of that.

I got this little trick from typing WAYYYY too fast and leaving the screen door open (hands freeze). Its what I do for Forums now, It goes with the Moniker. It anoys some people but some people jsut love the way the word \"just\" always mispelled the same way http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

If I take my time and watch what I type, I\'d probably be better understood....but oh well. If I\'m going to have an Internet Personality, why not go all the way http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

BTW, about a Power User\'s guide, I\'d rather keep MIDI files and EQ settings/Patches and just share them. Most all of what I do with GOS is up in the GOS forum .. but you\'ve known that for a while Pat http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



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Really...I am an Idiot

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
BTW, about a Power User\'s guide, I\'d rather keep MIDI files and EQ settings/Patches and just share them. Most all of what I do with GOS is up in the GOS forum .. but you\'ve known that for a while Pat http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK. Just keep \'em coming! You\'ve been a big help. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Pat

[Kobb]

Very Cool, King. It sounded great! Now I\'m more excited than ever to get my copy of GOS.

Ironically, I was spending the evening figuring out some of the piano cues from Shawshank. I\'ve always loved the haunting mood of \"New Fish\" and \"Brooks was here\" and it\'s just great fun to finally play them. Plus it\'s a good way to learn about the way certain things work. It\'s amazing how cleverly simple that stuff is - lots of parallel fifths, which Sir Newman seems to employ often.

It\'s also interesting how he almost takes a sound designer\'s approach to his compositions - lots of strange, manipulated sonic textures that aren\'t orchestral instuments, but add so much in terms of atmosphere.

Once I get some more orchestral libraries I\'m looking foward to mocking up some of my favorite cues. It seems like a great way to learn more about GS.

[KingIdiot]

Yah he does alot of fifths and simple two note. whole note piano lines. They sound great tho http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

yo\'re rght aout ihs soud designer aproach. At times he does it with th stings as well..building stark ambiences with sustaining strings and dissonant voicings.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Scott Speed]

Just let me add to the pack...that sounds absolutely gorgeous, King...I wasn\'t sure if I was listening to the actual acoustic track or the GOS version when I first loaded it up. Great job.

Regards,
Scott

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
http://www.musicyouneed.com/stuff/forhorst (\"http://www.musicyouneed.com/stuff/forhorst\")

I took an hour to mock up the intro to one of the Shawshank redemption cues.

I didn\'t pend enough time tweaking to perfect it, but this time I started out mimicing somethign that already existed.

You can see what an hour of work with GOS will give you. I personally think the reverb on my cue is the main problem. There isn\'t enough \"space\" in it. The cue itself is pretty close.

I played with the tempo track to get a more \"human\" performance. There are areas that i should have added some more dynamic swells and touched up the legato. The hour spent was also with reverb and EQ.

I\'ve uploaded both the actaul Cue, and aGOS version. IMO Its pretty good. I ahve another idea for getting that softer Pianimmisso sound, which I will try later. I wanted to get teh expression close to the mark first.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Chadwick]

Good stuff King - pretty darned close for samples!

[ProfessorOak]

Wow- incredibly impressive. I cannot wait to get my hands on GOS. Lets hear more.

Dale

[KingIdiot]

Thanks guys. remember this is still not me perfecting it. I still am not that great with understanding/hearing strings. Its really the samples that make the mock up sound so good. I Hear things I would change now. Like the sustaining B in the beginning, I would layer a Harmonic sample over it to get that soft harmonic overrign thats in the original, as well as touch up a bit of the expression/dynamics. Not to mention a tad of the sequencing. PLus of course would love to have original \"air\"/ambience recordings of chairs crackling and stuff.. Where\'s Thomas J lately? Maybe I can ask if I can grab his ambience sampes from him.

Anyhow, I believe that with a little more sequence programming (if I played violin or somethign It miht be easier for me to hear the expression thats needed), and sound design on my part I could recreate it near exactly the way the original track is. Still I Dont think I could do anything this close with another library. When Gary does solo string I think I\'ll get even closer, since there is a very expressive 1st violin in the cue (atleast it sounds like it)

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Horst]

Hi King,

I admire you being so helpful. Thank you for the efforts. Let me tell you my impressions:

Those strings sound really nice and fairly natural. This time you´ve more played the lower registers.

And - yes - if I remember the homepage demos from Garry, the Full Legato Demo also plays more the mid and lower registers.

It seems that GOS is specifically strong here. The higher regions are - for any reason - not as convincing. I do not agree that this is beacause - as somebody mentioned here - it is digital recordings. Most real CD recordings are digital and do not sound cold.

It may have to do something with the fractioning of sound, the over-and-over again reproduction of the same \"soundscape\", which seems to irritate the ear more in higher regions than it does in the lower.

Strings a specific challenge. It is much, much easier to sample a piano or drums than to sample a legato string section.

Technology is still behind here and legato or up and down bow switching are just the very start of it.

I do not know why we needed a sound producer to write a driver to improve legato- and up/down bowing features.

These things should be implemented into Gigastudio. Otherwise the idea of \"behavioral sampling\" is just theory.

Thanks again.
Horst

[KingIdiot]

Horst.

Would it be possible that you could point me in the direction of a recording that has the soudn you desire, and where in the recording it is? I know you gave a couple of suggestions for soudns but I\'m not srewhat recordings and where in the pieces you hear what you like. Maybe you can send me a snippet of a recording you like. I believe GOS is a very powerful saple library, mostly because of the ptions it gives the end user to recreate a real performance. For matching recordings I think EQ and reverbs are the main part here. Which is another rason I like GOS. Its sound takes to EQ and reverbs prety well.

I don\'t thikn GOS will please everyone tho. I just want to help you understand why I like GOS so much.... Its very flexible.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
Horst.

Would it be possible that you could point me in the direction of a recording that has the soudn you desire, and where in the recording it is? I know you gave a couple of suggestions for soudns but I\'m not srewhat recordings and where in the pieces you hear what you like. Maybe you can send me a snippet of a recording you like. I believe GOS is a very powerful saple library, mostly because of the ptions it gives the end user to recreate a real performance. For matching recordings I think EQ and reverbs are the main part here. Which is another rason I like GOS. Its sound takes to EQ and reverbs prety well.

I don\'t thikn GOS will please everyone tho. I just want to help you understand why I like GOS so much.... Its very flexible.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I have to agree with Horst....the higher strings are not as strong as the mids. But this is true of every string library I\'ve heard. Someone else asked me to give some examples, and I did....virtually anything real will suffice. Once the violins get in the range of a couple of octaves above middle C there is little mistaking that we are using samples. Why this is I don\'t know....it certainly isn\'t the digital aspect...it\'s in the way the samples themselves sound in that range.

I\'ve done many live string dates over the last 20 years, small and large. Bear in mind that even small REAL sections have a problem with this...6 to 8 violins playing high by themselves....unless they are top players, can sometimes sound thin and grainy .....it is when you start massing the sections.....16 to 24 violins in unison, that things start sounding good. Now I know Gary used this larger number of players, which is why it is all the more frustrating. He didn\'t close mike them, and he used enough players. So the reason eludes me. But using legato violins with Maestro, and trying combinations like All Vlns Sordino, while helpful, still is not getting the sound yet. Yes, reverb and EQ help a lot, but not enough.....

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
Horst.

Would it be possible that you could point me in the direction of a recording that has the soudn you desire, and where in the recording it is? I know you gave a couple of suggestions
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


King...if you check out James Newton Howard\'s demo of \"The Egg Travels,\" listen to the piece about 1:15 or so in...just after the horns play their section....the violins that come in are a good example (though not the best...since they are REALLY playing high) of what I\'m talking about. You listen to his MIDI mockup, then the live session to compare, and there\'s so little difference as to be irrelevant, at least on the mp3. So unless he\'s REALLY cheating on this demo, it tells me that higher strings CAN get more credible.

The URL is http://www.keyboardmag.com/features/jnhoward/index.shtml (\"http://www.keyboardmag.com/features/jnhoward/index.shtml\")

[KingIdiot]

Tom,

I know that Eggtravel demo.. I hate the freaking volume of the files...I also know the sound you\'re looking for.

I did a VERY rough demo of ET in the beta Perod. I\'ve ben reluctant to post it because it was. VERY rough. I was using slides and \"missing\" them in some areas and the legato feture wasn\'t implimented yet. However you can get an idea of what the strings sound like in those registers. It was jsut a rough sketch. VERY rough sketch to try out high expresive string lines. It sounds horrible without legato IMO. But the expressive sound of the string sustains sounds wonderful. I\'ll upload it as well as another beta testing period \"test\" and maybe touch them up some day in the future. I KNOW they can be done WAY better now with the full versions feature set.

they are up at www.musicyouneed.com/GOS (\"http://www.musicyouneed.com/GOS\")

I should add that the ET Cue is little or no EQ and jsut bsic Reverb from my VS 1680. Also it isn\'t full violins, just 1st section and cellos playing prralel octves, so it may sound thinner, than if I used 1st and second for the melody OR even using the ALL violins patch.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 11-22-2001).]

[Lance_M]

There\'s something you should always remember: we know exactly what each individual sample sounds like. We can identify the most minor characteristic in every last one. So no wonder it\'s easy for us to say \"Aha! That sounds fake!\"...

But show it to a family member. For example, your mother. Send her an mp3 to listen to. If you don\'t tell her it\'s fake, it won\'t even cross her mind. She won\'t even care if you tell her. All that matters is if the music itself is good.

Personally, I think most people are far too involved in the least significant of qualities. It\'s almost like they\'re blaming the poor quality of their song on the fact that \"this damn sample A doesn\'t let note B slide into note C as well as I want it to\". They lose complete focus on what makes music MUSIC.

I\'m the farthest thing from a musical or audio expert (frankly, I suck and shouldn\'t even be critical of anyone but myself), but even I can tell that most of the problems are in their own orchestration, not the limitations of the samples.

And so what if it sounds \"synthy\"? You can\'t expect to pay $300-1000 for something and have it sound as good as draining your life savings for a real orchestra.

Bleh, I dunno. Just felt like ranting while I had a few free minutes. Ignore my post! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Lance_M (edited 11-22-2001).]

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lance_M:

But show it to a family member. For example, your mother. Send her an mp3 to listen to. If you don\'t tell her it\'s fake, it won\'t even cross her mind. She won\'t even care if you tell her. All that matters is if the music itself is good.

And so what if it sounds \"synthy\"? You can\'t expect to pay $300-1000 for something and have it sound as good as draining your life savings for a real orchestra.

[This message has been edited by Lance_M (edited 11-22-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, first off, most of us who buy these libraries....at least...I believe most of us...are not creating music for our Moms. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif That is not in the least to imply that the general public is educated in these matters....not when Dateline comes on 5 times a week with the single worst string sample in all of history playing the main string line over real brass, anyway. And none of the libraries I\'ve bought yet adverstise with slogans like \"Fool your friends!\" http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

So what if it sounds synthy? Well, for one, I\'d jjust keep using my synth if \"so what\" were the answer, I wouldn\'t fork out thousands searching for reality...or near reality...none of us would.

For the 10,000 time I believe GOS is the closest we\'ve had, but I do agree with the poster who said that it\'s strength seems to be in the mid range....not the highs....which has been the achilles heel of every library so far....BTW, Happy Thanksgiving to all.....

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
Tom,

I know that Eggtravel demo.. I hate the freaking volume of the files...I also know the sound you\'re looking for.

they are up at www.musicyouneed.com/GOS (\"http://www.musicyouneed.com/GOS\")

I should add that the ET Cue is little or no EQ and jsut bsic Reverb from my VS 1680. Also it isn\'t full violins, just 1st section and cellos playing prralel octves, so it may sound thinner, than if I used 1st and second for the melody OR even using the ALL violins patch.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


OK, I found ET, which was very nice. I can hear that with better reverb we\'d be in good shape on that...for samples, anyway. But I can\'t find the \"Egg Travels\" thing....I\'ll keep searching but if you can give me a better idea where to find it I\'d be grateful...because I truly am an idiot myself when it comes to finding things up here sometimes http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tomhartman:

OK, I found ET, which was very nice. I can hear that with better reverb we\'d be in good shape on that...for samples, anyway. But I can\'t find the \"Egg Travels\" thing....I\'ll keep searching but if you can give me a better idea where to find it I\'d be grateful...because I truly am an idiot myself when it comes to finding things up here sometimes http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Nevermind King...too much turkey. I just reread your post and see that you were talking about \"ET.\' If you want to EMAIL me your \"Egg Travels\" that would be great.
I\'m at tomhartman@adelphia.net.....don\'t worry about reverb and quality stuff, I understand...

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:

Also it isn\'t full violins, just 1st section and cellos playing prralel octves, so it may sound thinner, than if I used 1st and second for the melody OR even using the ALL violins patch.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BTW, regarding the All VLNs patch, do you find that this patch is strange in the high registers? There\'s one note in particular...I\'ll have to go check...that sounds like fingernails on a blackboard. Really nasty. And I mean, it\'s just one note...couple octaves above middle C or so. I get better results with other combinations....Have you run up against this?

[KingIdiot]

Tom,

I ahven\'t done an eggtravels mockup,I was jsut saying thta I \"know\" it from the debating that went on out here.

There is too much orchestration in that cue tht I\'m willing to transcribe and sequence at the moment. I could do just the strings but I dont believe its fair to do just the strings to compare to a fully orchestrated MIDI.

I haven\'t heard the note you\'re speaking of in the all violins patch, you might want to bring it up in the GOS forum in particular. I actually think this ET cue sounds better than the JHN MIDI version of his Eggtravels cue.

I believe you when you say GOS is the closest we\'ve havd...but I also think its closer than you think http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif Also it will only get closer with free updates and a guy who actually listens to the ed users requests http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

off to eat some turkey.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Horst]

King,

thank you for taking the challenge! Now I would be happy to hear the very

beginning of the 5th symphony of Ralph Vaughan Williams.

There is soft undertone from the Basses an the Celli and a cantible onset of the violins opening the theme just after the horn calls. You could continue while the flutes set in to a point where the violins repeat the theme in 4 voices, underlayed by a viola unison note in ppp.

This should be about 1 minute. But also the first 30 seconds would do.

The library who could produce this wonderful piece convincingly which is: soft, legato, \"singing\" will probably be world-class. The best reproduction I heard was with KH basses and Vituos violins.

I know it is really hard to do this. Maybe asked too much....

Thank you King.
Horst

[LHong]

Dear King and GOS owner,
Very nice works on the GOS! Really enjoyable!

I\'m about more interested...I have 4 Min. symphony song, what I\'m still working on (95% done, maybe you could help to finish other 5%, I\'m more than happy). Could you (or someone, who has GOS) give us some more demo, we could send you the MIDI file? If yes, please let us know your contacted info.
It is a simple song:
piano x2
Violin/viola/flute x2
String-Section x 5
Bass x1
That\'s all.

Best regards,
Long

[ProfessorOak]

Wow!

King, lets hear a tad bit more of the FF7 intro! Very nice.

I am feeling physical pain hearing these demos. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Dale

[KingIdiot]

Hey guys,

Horst. I\'ll try and find a copy of the Ralph Vaughan Williams 5th symphony. I\'m much mroe of a film music geek than a classical composition guy. So I\'m not very familiar with the piece....well maybe I am..but not by the name http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif So when I hear it I\'ll try to take some time to make a mock up

LHong-

I\'m note so sure thats a good idea for me to do. Most of the developers have a liscense agreement that states that something to this effect would be breaking the greement. If you owned the library it would be a different story. Do you? Gary offers contact info on how to get help in orchestrating with GOS in the manual. I\'m pretty sure it still requires owning the library tho.

ProfessorOak-

I love the FF orchetrations. I\'v been thiking of actually going in and doing a mockup of that whole piece one day..or yera..or whatever its goign to take. I have to transcribe/figure it out tho. I know that the intro I put up is wrong. The movement of the fifths and fourths is different. I believe I have the right notes, but not the right sections moving in the right directions. Its fairly frustrating...


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Really...I am an Idiot

[Horst]

Hi King,

thank you. I am very curious about your work.
BTW: Ralph Vaughan Williams is not that far away from film music. In his later years he has written quite some film music. That was in the 50s and late 40s.

Thanks.
Horst

[Simon Ravn]

Horst, can you email me the intro of that Vaughan Williams 5th you wanted to hear? If I think I can do it I might give it a shoot. My email is melo@marble-eyes.dk - TIA!

Whoever asked for Eggtravel, I did a very small mockup which was not far from JNH except there were some notes I didnt get right. I dont want to use more time on it, so I\'ll put it on my site in the form it has, knowing I could do it a lot better today, with the finished library and all.

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
Horst, can you email me the intro of that Vaughan Williams 5th you wanted to hear? If I think I can do it I might give it a shoot. My email is melo@marble-eyes.dk - TIA!

Whoever asked for Eggtravel, I did a very small mockup which was not far from JNH except there were some notes I didnt get right. I dont want to use more time on it, so I\'ll put it on my site in the form it has, knowing I could do it a lot better today, with the finished library and all.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


It was me who asked...could you point me to your site so I could give a listen? Always enjoy your stuff....

[Simon Ravn]

Horst... please send to melo@post12.tele.dk instead...

Tom, my site is down (just like my EMAIL is now down! What is the world coming to... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif) but SHOULD be up early in the coming week.

[RobertKooijman]

Don\'t know how relevant it is, but I understand that Ralph Vaughn Williams sometimes used separated physical orchestra positions for creating more depth. A sublime example is his \"Fantasia on a theme of Tomas Talis\", where he manages to create an abslutely amazing atmosphere and depth in the soundscape. This is a piece that often brings tears in my eyes, even when I heard it played in a music store some years back.

Is there anyone in this forum that has heard the Nimbus recording of that piece? Nimbus avoided close miking and got convincing results with its \"ambiosonic\" positioning. This in contrast to e.g Telarc, that despite using distant miking not always captured the \"magic\".

To mock-up this using samples is indeed a challenge. Interesting discussion!

Cheers, Robert

where <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
Horst... please send to melo@post12.tele.dk instead...

Tom, my site is down (just like my EMAIL is now down! What is the world coming to... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif) but SHOULD be up early in the coming week.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[KingIdiot]

Well I have to go out and buy some of his music. I\'m glad you posted some of the different recordigns tho. This is my main issue. There are a few diffferent recordgins of different classical composers, and some sound better than others.

I\'d hate to ask again for someone to send a short clip of an mp3 to either Simon or me or both...but I am http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif It is just easier.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[Sapkiller]

hi everybody
Great to hear from some RVW fans. The
Thomas Tallis Fantasia is a fantastic piece
of string music. I have the Telarc version and also an old EMI/Karajan on CD, but I
used to have a version on record that I
remember as outstanding, but I\'ll be
dammed if I can remember what label it was
on. I seem to remember that it had Tallis and the 5th on the same record.
Robert: Does your Nimbus recording have both, cause maybe thats the one?

By the way don\'t buy the EMI/Karajan - its
old and in mono, so you don\'t get the magnificiant antiphonal impressions that was intended by RVW, using 2 string orchestra\'s
and a solo quartet.

Horst: I\'m giving it a try with the 5th, but
I dont have GOS (yet), so it will be
done with AO - hope to post it soon.

Why is it that nobody uses the Northern user demo\'es for posting anymore?

Lets keep this RVW thing going - alongside
Shostakovich and Carl Nielsen his my favorite
20\'th century symphonic composer.

Speaking of Carl - how\'s this for a GOS
challenge on fast playing:

4th symphony - beginning of 4th movement
just after the bridge from 3rd.
Violins playing a very fast and furiuos
motiv with basses and cello\'s joining in semi-contrapuntal style.

Bjarne

[Sapkiller]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:

I\'d hate to ask again for someone to send a short clip of an mp3 to either Simon or me or both...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi King
I can send you a short excerpt of the opening
of the Telarc version - I see no harm in that. An mp3 won\'t do it justice though, but
it will give you an idea.
But I need your e-mail adress.

Bjarne

[KingIdiot]

Sap

ashif@musicyouneed.com

I cant guarantee any fast mock ups. I do have work to do...tho it doesn\'t seem that way here sometimes I\'m sure.

If its a very involved piece it may nto eer get done wince I\'d be workign it from ear. If anyone has a MIDI of it, or can mock up a basic MIDI I\'d be happy to tweak it for GOS and get it as close as possible to one of the original recordings.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[Sapkiller]

Hi King
Its on its way..
By the way I did\'nt intend you to do any
mockup of the RVW - it was mostly for you pleasure and letting you know what all the
fuzz\'s about.
But if you feel like it sure would be nice.

However the Carl Nielsen thing - that would
be really interesting.

Bjarne

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
If anyone has a MIDI of it, or can mock up a basic MIDI I\'d be happy to tweak it for GOS and get it as close as possible to one of the original recordings.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Check out the following sites for Classical MIDI files:

www.midiworld.com/cmc/index.htm (\"http://www.midiworld.com/cmc/index.htm\")

www.classicalarchives.com (\"http://www.classicalarchives.com\")

www.classicalmidiresource.com (\"http://www.classicalmidiresource.com\")

www.classical.ndirect.co.uk/page7.htm (\"http://www.classical.ndirect.co.uk/page7.htm\")

I saw \"Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis\" at the first site.

Pat

[Horst]

Hi everybody,
sorry for not having answered earlier, but I have been very busy.

I have prepared an MP3 with the start of the 5th symphony from an original recording and also - yes - a MIDI-File with the same thing. I hope I am not violating any copyright laws, but this is just for fun here and it is just a short excerpt.

The mp3 contains a few clicks (don´t know why)but it gives the right impression. Seems to sound a tiny bit sharper then the original.

The MID-File was created with Encore, so very little controller info in it, very straight. But it might reduce you work significantly as you do not have to key in notes (like I did).

I am going to send this to SimonRavn and KingIdiot to try with GOS. Please do not distribute the files. King could you specify your Email-address ? I found Simon´s already and will send it today.

I am looking forward to any results.

Horst

[RobertKooijman]

Hi Bjarne,

the Nimbus recording I have did not contain the 5th symphony, instead his hobo concert, variation on greensleeves and five variants of dives and lazarus.

I don\'t have the CD at hand in my office right now, but it was one of the earlier Nimbus (digital) releases in the 80ties.
There exists a newer release \"A portrait of
Vaughan Williams\" and also another great compilation \"The spirit of England\" with a.o. the Talis Fantasia and fine works of Gerald Finzi and Delius. Just check this URL:
http://www.nimbus.ltd.uk/nrl/index.html (\"http://www.nimbus.ltd.uk/nrl/index.html\")

I have listened to several different RVW recordings/labels, the Nimbus ones are my aboslute favorites!

From the age of 9, my main hobby was building radio\'s (later also transmitters and other stuff as a radio amateur PE1CKQ). It was on my first self-build FM receiver that I heard a classical piece that touched me right in a nerve and blew me away. I did everything I could not to miss the name of the composer after it ended, and you can of course guess who it was: RVW and one of his symphonies.

If it doesn\'t get to much out of topic: any opinions about which symhpony boxed compilation is prefered?

Anyone having experiences in re-creating the added depth in soundscape by using different string positions?.

All the best, Robert

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sapkiller:
hi everybody
Great to hear from some RVW fans. The
Thomas Tallis Fantasia is a fantastic piece
of string music. I have the Telarc version and also an old EMI/Karajan on CD, but I
used to have a version on record that I
remember as outstanding, but I\'ll be
dammed if I can remember what label it was
on. I seem to remember that it had Tallis and the 5th on the same record.
Robert: Does your Nimbus recording have both, cause maybe thats the one?

By the way don\'t buy the EMI/Karajan - its
old and in mono, so you don\'t get the magnificiant antiphonal impressions that was intended by RVW, using 2 string orchestra\'s
and a solo quartet.

Horst: I\'m giving it a try with the 5th, but
I dont have GOS (yet), so it will be
done with AO - hope to post it soon.

Why is it that nobody uses the Northern user demo\'es for posting anymore?

Lets keep this RVW thing going - alongside
Shostakovich and Carl Nielsen his my favorite
20\'th century symphonic composer.

Speaking of Carl - how\'s this for a GOS
challenge on fast playing:

4th symphony - beginning of 4th movement
just after the bridge from 3rd.
Violins playing a very fast and furiuos
motiv with basses and cello\'s joining in semi-contrapuntal style.

Bjarne

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Gulliver]

Hey King,

You did a great job on that Thomas Newman cue you put together. Actually, I liked all of the beta demos you\'ve posted so far, at the least they show the quality of the GOS samples. You\'ve mentioned Reverb and this is such a delicate and complicated issue. Having worked with god knows how many different reverb units and plugins I\'ve come to believe that with Reverb less is better. Yes, i think too much reverb (atleast with good quality samples) is worse than too little. It all depends on the situation, heavy instrumentation vs light, dynamic ranges, etc... I find myself not sticking to one formula for reverberation. Anyway, this topic has been discussed in great lengths and i don\'t think it will go away.. it\'s stubborn http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
One thing I\'ve been experimenting with has been trying to mimic the way most modern filmscores are recorded with multiple mic setups and feeds. You divide your orchestra parts (violins, basses, woods, horns, rest of brass,etc) and apply two different layers of reverb per section. The first layer is the main and it consists of the feed picked up by the closest mic (or if necessary a dedicated mic) Usually with larger ensemble recordings the engineer would have a set of main mics in some kind of configuration in front of the orchestra and other ambience mics to pickup the different sections. If necessary acoustic absorbers are sometimes put in between the brass or percussion and the rest of the orchestra to stop bleeding from occurring. This is where you get the second layer of reverb, which is the faint bleeding that\'s picked up across all different sections. How you do all of this inside of a digital computer is really up in the air (literally). You can use conventional reverbs and apply them in layers with different parameters (pre-delay, dry/mix ratio,etc) or use something like the Cakewalk Soundstage plugin. In a perfect world there is some clever DSP programmer out there that is working on an integrated Reverb tool that can do all of this. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Actually one of biggest problems with conventional Reverb now is even if you decide to do with in layers, there is no way of accurately mixing them like they would in a real world setting where complex sonic interactions occur. Again, this is where that clever DSP programmer comes in.

regards,
f.juma.

[Gulliver]

Most people have probably caught this already but i thought i would mention it anyway. That Newton-Howard Dinosaur demo is right now severly screwed up. Looks like they mixed the midi version and the live one right on top of each other (out of sync too) on both tracks available on the Keyboard.com site. The remember the original midi mp3 (before it was screwed up) used a lot of older Roland samples extremely well, there was nothing tricky, just great composing and sequencing. I actually liked parts of that score enough to have done some of it with (now old) misrolav and ultimate strings.
http://members.home.com/vstorage1/EggTravels.mp3 (\"http://members.home.com/vstorage1/EggTravels.mp3\")
w/ a bit of creative license http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Ciao,
f.juma.

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gulliver:

Most people have probably caught this already but i thought i would mention it anyway. That Newton-Howard Dinosaur demo is right now severly screwed up. Looks like they mixed the midi version and the live one right on top of each other (out of sync too) on both tracks available on the Keyboard.com site. The remember the original midi mp3 (before it was screwed up) used a lot of older Roland samples extremely well, there was nothing tricky, just great composing and sequencing. I actually liked parts of that score enough to have done some of it with (now old) misrolav and ultimate strings.
http://members.home.com/vstorage1/EggTravels.mp3 (\"http://members.home.com/vstorage1/EggTravels.mp3\")
w/ a bit of creative license http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Ciao,
f.juma.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well hell, no wonder I\'m raving about the demo...the live one is mixed in with it by accident?? I did hear a section that sounded anticipated but thought that\'s how he wanted it...it\'s actually a pretty cool effect. Now I find it\'s simply out of synch!

I\'d love to the orginal MIDI demo, if anyone ever finds it. Roland samples can be excellent...I\'ve used them for years and still mix them with GIGA stuff. They were the class act out there, which is why so many film composers had racks of 770s and 760s. I could only afford two http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[KingIdiot]

Horst

ashif@musicyouneed.com

Sap, dont see the file(s) in my e-mail poddibly later today?

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[Horst]

Robert,

I would not worry too much about technical issues like positioning strings here and there. Though Vaughan Williams did some experimenting, the fantasy on Thomas Tallis was a very exception created for its dedicated performance in a large church.

I heard this piece live and was not aware about the 2nd desk of strings sitting in the back of the (an ordinary) concert hall. I was deeply touched by already the very first notes. I only noticed the 2nd desk at the end when the conducter pointed onto the players in my back. I was not aware about any accoustic effect. It was just music and that´s it.

I cannot remember any other of his work using this effect again. The 5th is straightforward orchestral score. But I know he used a lot of bells and special instruements like a wind machine and other things in his later works because he was enthusiastic about film music.

The power of his music lies in his very personal way of counterpointing that also has been subject to criticism. I think he sounds so lovely because there is sometimes more heart than craftsmanship in his counterpoint. And in times where heart-touching filmmusic is very popular, he is coming back.

Think of \"Titanic\": The suite is touching and monumental though sometimes horribly arranged - who cares ?

BTW: My favourite recording of the 5th is a cheap one from Virgin with the Royal Philharmonic and Yehudi Menuhin.
Horst