Rhythmn guitar strums:Acheivable?

[strummer42]

Hi Everyone,

I\'m a keyboard player without access to a midi guitar,nor can I play one well. My goal is to put together ultra-realistic rhythmn guitar strums to use as backing tracks in a variety of keys,patterns,tempos & moods.I need midi tracks/files to accomplish this.Possible alternatives include going the continous or non continous routes which I\'ll explain shortly.Not looking to artifically generate said objective from pseudo wanabees from applications such as Cakewalk et. al which to me aren\'t acceptable.Primary emphasis is on quality with a capital Q.Ideally,should someone in the group play or have the resources to record some for me that would work fine.Otherwise,if that isn\'t an option,I need to evaluate whether having non-looped/seperate up & down strums triggered by midi files will suffice.Do any of the Gigasampler libraries have looped,i.e. continious rhythmn samples well-executed with lots of variety?I have very good guitar samples and don\'t need another source instrument,but a way to incorporate these samples(seperate samples for every note at mutiple velocities) with the corresponding files wherever they can be discovered.Tried Twiddily Bits and Hans Zimmer which had some use,but were far from complete and limiting.Whats the groups opinion on having seperate up & down strum samples(non-continous audio,the components of the loop are linked together by a midi file) and is there a way to get these files to test out without having to buy the whole CD-rom which I don\'t need?Any
comments,tips,suggestions or solutions are very much appreciated.Thank you.

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by strummer42:
Hi Everyone,

I\'m a keyboard player without access to a midi guitar,nor can I play one well. My goal is to put together ultra-realistic rhythmn guitar strums to use as backing tracks in a variety of keys,patterns,tempos & moods.I need midi tracks/files to accomplish this.Possible alternatives include going the continous or non continous routes which I\'ll explain shortly.Not looking to artifically generate said objective from pseudo wanabees from applications such as Cakewalk et. al which to me aren\'t acceptable.Primary emphasis is on quality with a capital Q....

comments,tips,suggestions or solutions are very much appreciated.Thank you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


It\'s not going to happen.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but I\'ve played guitar forever and use Giga, Pro Tools, etc and have often gotten lazy enough to want ot play a rhythm part from a sampled source, but the truth is, the intricacies and subtleties of playing rhythm guitar are beyond the scope of a sample. So many things go on in a real rhythm part beyond just the up and down strokes (each stroke varies...it doesn\'t always hit all of the strings each time), the firmness of how you hold the pick on each stroke....it\'s endless.

Better to EMAIL a mp3 to a friend who plays guitar and have him play the part and EMAIL it back to you than to mess with this kind of thing. Remember, the secret to making samples sound great is including some real stuff with them. That real rhythm guitar part will make everything from your drums to your whatever sound more convincing taken as a whole. Complete projects done solely in midi....save for dance type or techno things....are generally lame when compared to the real deal. JMHO.

[strummer42]

Tom,

I can somewhat appreciate what you said and acknowledge that its not easy,however I think for a reasonably skilled player it can be done to some degree of satisfaction especially with todays equipment.I\'m primarily searching for the right midi file and to hook-up with someone who is willing to try.It doesn\'t have to be flawless as it can be edited to taste, I just need a accurate \"template\" where the notes, general timing & velocity is present in the file.Are you a midi guitarist?Thanks.

[strummer42]

Hi O.H.,

The Digitar distributed from Ilio is 300-400 bucks(or at least it used to be)& is an somewhat expensive option with unknown results until you buy it and then you\'re potentially are stuck with it if doesn\'t meet expectations.I\'d rather buy a couple of cd-roms(if they strongly recommended) or maybe even hire somebody to do it if I knew someone,but don\'t right now.Thanks for the suggestion.

[Tokyo Joe]

Nevermind, I see you have already tried \"Twiddly Bits\".

[This message has been edited by Tokyo Joe (edited 11-18-2001).]

[strummer42]

This query/request needs to be refined and honed down.I would especially like to hear from:1) any purchasers of GS guitar sample libraries & or are also midi guitarists.Specifically,how they evaluated each library and their accompanying midi files as to how authentic & effective(or lack therof)they were.2)What users does to lay down backing tracks short of recording it live to cover that area.Basically,I\'m looking to edit to taste from a 1 or two bar rhythmn pattern recorded from a midi guitar consisting of a single held chord,no finger movement from the left hand with the right hand just strumming up and down hitting most or all of the strings(as applicable) on each pass.Say 10 seconds of continious strumming. Hope this clarifies it a little.Any pointers on the web would be appreciated as to a solution.

[Munsie]

Very achievable, at least depending on your level of acceptance in the produced sound. I\'m doing a 100% virtual (no real instruments) cd using gigastudio as the driving force and a few sound modules. Every \"non musician\" who hears my music has no idea it\'s not real musicians playing it. The biggest problem I\'ve come across, is the end result sounding too clean. You have to dub in some scrapes, fret noise, etc. (at very random intervals) to make it sound real.
It\'s NOT the technology that is limiting this, it\'s the availability of sub par libraries. There should be some good strumming (electric) libraries available within the next 6 months to a year.

[strummer42]

Munsie,

How are you accomplishing it,with what libraries and or tools?We could continue this privately if you\'d like.Thanks

[LHong]

Strumming guitar is depended on music styles like pop, rock, country or latin, for example, they all are not same. It is not that simple like to play the guitar-string up and down without any skills.
Of course to use the MIDI for the strumming guitar is not real (not as well as the strumming audio samples) but it might be aceptable for some or most of *background* mixing songs. What music style do you refer to? we could make customized Strumming MIDI for you without the charged if it\'s easy one!

Anyway, If you or anyone is interested, we could send you one.

BTW, there is a program, which is called Jammer-Pro http://www.soundtrek.com (\"http://www.soundtrek.com\")
It will possibly do some works for you as well.

Hope this helps,
Long

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by strummer42:
This query/request needs to be refined and honed down.I would especially like to hear from:1) any purchasers of GS guitar sample libraries & or are also midi guitarists.Specifically,how they evaluated each library and their accompanying midi files as to how authentic & effective(or lack therof)they were.2)What users does to lay down backing tracks short of recording it live to cover that area.Basically,I\'m looking to edit to taste from a 1 or two bar rhythmn pattern recorded from a midi guitar consisting of a single held chord,no finger movement from the left hand with the right hand just strumming up and down hitting most or all of the strings(as applicable) on each pass.Say 10 seconds of continious strumming. Hope this clarifies it a little.Any pointers on the web would be appreciated as to a solution.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


[This message has been edited by LHong (edited 11-18-2001).]

[David Govett]

Although there are going probably be some tempo and chord variety restrictions, its very hard to beat samples up and down strums in various keys on some of the existing guitar libraries. Those would include Acoustic Essentials, Maximum Strengh Guitar,Nashville High Strung Guitars and a very good classical guitar from Best Service and the Jacaranda from Bigga Giggas. These all incorporate the sampled strums and some (Maximum Strength for sure) have various noises, thumbs and slides to play with. Maximum strength even has nice MIDI file strum and pick rythms that are played in using a guitar MIDI controller. That one is my favorite acoustic.
This is my philosophy for samples in general. In addition to multi velocity bread and butter sustain sounds, I really like sampled phrases, licks, strums, trills, runs, ect.. in samples. They are simply more realistic than trying to play them in manually by MIDI. Everything doesn\'t work at all tempos of course but I prefer to adjust the tempo if possible to get the easier to use and more realistic sound.
That\'s just me though.
Take care
David Govett

[OH]

Ckeck out the Korg Oasys PCI card for physical modell guitars. For keyboard players there is the option of the \"digitar\" a midi device that translates keyboard fingerings into guitar playing. Check the net for infos. the idea with a friend being a guitar player is very likely the best...

regards


------------------
O.H.

[Munsie]

Mr. Govett covered the acoustic options very well (thanks!) when it comes to strumming. Electronic guitar strumming is still in it\'s infancy as far as samples are concerned. Sonic Implants at http://www.sonicimplants.com (\"http://www.sonicimplants.com\") have various electric guitar samples that cover the basics, with clever mixing and some fx thrown in you can do some convincing electric guitar strums with their libraires.

Personally I\'m a drummer/singer, who plays keyboards like a drummer. Which means I have learned to strum pretty good on the keyboard. I also use \"rythm-n-chords\" software to produce some quick chord strums when I need them. That software combined with some good sustained guitar sounds can do wonders. I do rock music so I can get away with less than perfect guitar tracks. I will more than likely do my own personal guitar library at some point in the near future when I find the time. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Simon Ravn]

Don\'t forget Pure Guitars - nice and cheap guitar library. For some reason however, only the steel guitar includes a lot of different strummed chords, whereas the nylon only has minor and major!

[strummer42]

Would it be possible to continue certain aspects off forum with LHONG/Dave Govett?
I need a way to contact you please.Thanks.
Please keep that input rolling.Been interesting to hear different points of view.

[David Govett]

I can be reached through my email by anyone at david@davidgovett.com

Have fun
David

[LHong]

Here is the contacted info.
lvhong@aol.com
Regards,
Long

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by strummer42:


Would it be possible to continue certain aspects off forum with LHONG/Dave Govett?
I need a way to contact you please.Thanks.
Please keep that input rolling.Been interesting to hear different points of view.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Munsie]

\"1) any purchasers of GS guitar sample libraries & or are also midi guitarists.Specifically,how they evaluated each library and their accompanying midi files as to how authentic & effective(or lack therof)they were.2)What users does to lay down backing tracks short of recording it live to cover that area.Basically,I\'m looking to edit to taste from a 1 or two bar rhythmn pattern recorded from a midi guitar consisting of a single held chord,no finger movement from the left hand with the right hand just strumming up and down hitting most or all of the strings(as applicable) on each pass.Say 10 seconds of continious strumming. \"

I really think you should research the midi plug in market for guitar strums and chords. There are a few software plug ins for Cubase, Cakewalk, etc. that allow you to type or (point and click) in your chords and it generates the stumming, picking for you automatically. You can pick and choose the styles, phrasing, timing, fingering, etc. It\'s all very do-able and easy. Perhaps I\'m not understanding your goals, but if it is to generate realistic guitar strums via midi, then my statement should point you in the right direction.

[JWink]

I own a Digitar, and if you are really serious about doing convincing strums using single note samples it is the only way to go. It can either play only the notes you tell it to play, mapping them from the top string down, or it can analyze the chord you are playing and voice it as it would be voiced on a guitar.

It does take some getting used to. When I first got it, I loved it. Then I got frustrated with it. Now I love it again. I had to get used to shifting my left hand on the keyboard BEFORE I strummed with my right. Also, picks don\'t work well with it. Even the lightest pick is too heavy, resulting in very high velocities. My pick of choice is a folded up business card. They don\'t last long... only about one song... but they do the trick. Also, I had to learn that my strumming skills require an optimum tempo. I always have to slow my sequence down, but it varies how much before I find that sweet spot where I can make it groove.

The Digitar is essentially a different instrument, sort of a keyboard/guitar hybrid. It doesn\'t require that you learn different fingerings, but you will have to practice before you get optimum results. As I said, however, if you are serious about realistic sampled guitar tracks (without using a real guitar controller), it\'s the best option out there.

[strummer42]

JWink,

It it possible to further discuss your findings and hands-on experience with the Digitar off-forum?Would you please provide a contact address?

Munsie,

I\'m curious as to your experience with Rhythmns and Chords.Been to the website and they seen to have a zillion patterns and libraries at a fairly reasonable price but I\'m curious & leary as to quality,whether it sounds authentic for the intended purpose and is therefore a good buy.

To The Group:

Are there any do-it-yourselfers who have done this type of sampling? I\'m looking for a stereo/massive sounding,rich 12 or 18 string guitar,maybe even 2 12-string guitars layered together which used & layered synergistically would sound big & full.Any inklings of guitar libraries in the works?

[Nick Phoenix]

Interesting topic. In the 56 strat library, I tried to tackle this. There is a seven way velocity switching strummer patch. The softer velocities were recorded with the pick at an angle, simulating the early part of the strum. The harder velocites are dug in with a more normal pick angle. The top velocity was hit hard at a bit of an angle. to achieve this I had to cover the unused strings, because they tend to get hit as well. The result is pretty good. I have never heard anything else like it, as far as guitar samples go. I would love to try it with the digitar.

[This message has been edited by Nick Phoenix (edited 11-21-2001).]

[JWink]

My email is jwinkler1@qwest.net. I would be happy to answer any questions about the Digitar. It really is a nice bit of equipment. Between the Digitar and my BC03 breath controller, I am getting to be a big fan of alternate controllers...

Jake

[JWink]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
The softer velocities were recorded with the pick at an angle, simulating the early part of the strum.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the pick angle is a great idea. It is interesting what works and doesn\'t work in terms of guitar samples. For example, I love Matt Ragan\'s Max Acoustic for acoustic lead situations, but it seems a bit in your face when I use it as a rhythm instrument. I would rather use Acoustic Essentials (or Nick\'s \"Acoustic God\" from QL Gutar & Bass... still a fantastic sample!) for strumming... it just seems to sit a little better in the mix.

[JWink]

For any interested, I have uploaded a ZIP file with some Digitar examples to

http://www.users.qwest.net/~jwinkler1/DigitarDemo.Zip (\"http://www.users.qwest.net/~jwinkler1/DigitarDemo.ZIP\")

Jake