KH String Demos - Full Versions

[MuzkGuy]

Some of you have expressed hearing the full compositions of some of the snips that are at the website ( www.kirkhunterstudios.com (\"http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com\") ), so here are a few. When I put others up, I\'ll let you know. They are quite long, so be warned.
Thanks. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/swfull.mp3 (\"http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/swfull.mp3\") http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/pastoralfull.mp3 (\"http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/pastoralfull.mp3\") http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/violinsolofull.mp3 (\"http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/violinsolofull.mp3\") http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/chmdynbaroq.mp3 (\"http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/chmdynbaroq.mp3\")

[tomhartman]

Thanks for the demos. They took a lot of work and I appreciate the time you spent.

Regarding the samples, I cannot for the life of me see what all the fuss about this library is....I don\'t find them credible at all, although a better reverb would help.

The Holy Grail of strings may never be found. Gary\'s is the best so far, with a few exceptions in the library, but no one has nailed the high violins yet....

[MuzkGuy]

I put the works up because there was a request. I was not necessarily seeking opinions (especially not negative ones) on the library on this particular thread...

[This message has been edited by MuzkGuy (edited 11-14-2001).]

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tomhartman:
Gary\'s is the best so far, with a few exceptions in the library, but no one has nailed the high violins yet....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would you point us to a recorded example of the high violin sound you believe these libraries haven\'t \"nailed\"? What sort of musical context do you have in mind?

Thanks!

Pat

[mahlon]

Tomhartman,
I have to disagree. These strings are some of the most realistic I\'ve used sitting in a mix. They have a great amount of realism, especially monophonic lines. And the faster detache sound great. No string library yet has captured it all, and while absolute realism is still elusive for us, this library certainly makes a good choice for creating a \'whole\' sound and making the experience very believable.

Mahlon

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mahlon:
Tomhartman,
I have to disagree. These strings are some of the most realistic I\'ve used sitting in a mix.

Mahlon<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to agree with Tomhartman (although I\'ve never tried them while sitting in a mix).

I thought the demos were beautifully crafted - well done. But that brings us to the point. They were so well-crafted that we can absolutely, positively know that this is as good as it gets for this library.

While the solo stuff sounded pretty cool, the \'high\' sections had moments of that Walter Carlos seventies sound - not a criticism in itself (because it sounded good) but for a grand I would want better.

A lot of it sounded quite phasey also. I know that geezer who posted them said he didn\'t want any negative criticism but that\'s what you get if you want a grand for something and it\'s not absolutely mind-blowing.

Kudos for the great demos though - a double-edged sword for the makers, but great for people who\'re sick of blowing cash on slightly below par product. (I\'ll tell you what though, give me the library for $200 and you\'ve got a deal; those strings are marvelous for $200. Almost as good as Dan Dean\'s for $100 or any number of sonic implants for $20.

This is \'Gigsampler\': the people\'s choice. I\'m sick of hearing how expensive it is to record orchestras and choirs. So what? What\'s that got to do with price? Make something wonderful. Sell it cheap, and you\'ll make money. Nobody in their right minds would pay a grand for this on the strength of those fabulous demos. (Many thanks for making up my mind)

[Radu Lupu]

Hi MuzkGuy!

What are the other librairies you used in the demos?

Thanks!

[Bardstown Audio]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Z6:

This is \'Gigsampler\': the people\'s choice. I\'m sick of hearing how expensive it is to record orchestras and choirs. So what? What\'s that got to do with price? Make something wonderful. Sell it cheap, and you\'ll make money. Nobody in their right minds would pay a grand for this on the strength of those fabulous demos. (Many thanks for making up my mind)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is quiet obvious that you have never hired a full orchestra or choir, and then paid for that orchestra or choir out of your own pocket. It is also obvious that you have never operated a business.

Kip
Bardstown Audio www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[LHong]

We think that he just pointed out about some sort of violin recorded section, Fully achieve the symphonic-sized section like 24-Violin with multiple fast attack levels and various velocities. Here is an idea demo from KH site: http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/24vlnsdyn.mp3 (\"http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/24vlnsdyn.mp3\")

The demo is greatly produced, there can be used in many musical composing purposes (not only classical).

One thing is that we don\'t believe that the DEMO strings were using the NFX verbs. It really Pro composed, recorded and mixed! Too good to believe!

We don\'t own GOS, neither KH, we can\'t say much...But the KH DEMO is pretty high quality string-sample. Even though it has huge of verbs, however it must be a good sound source, otherwise verb wouldn\'t help that much.

We also Agree with Z6 about the String\'s pricing is quite extremely high...Not many of us can afford because the string library is not only one library that we shall need in order to make good music...

Regards,
Long

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PatS:
Would you point us to a recorded example of the high violin sound you believe these libraries haven\'t \"nailed\"? What sort of musical context do you have in mind?

Thanks!

Pat<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



[This message has been edited by LHong (edited 11-14-2001).]

[MuzkGuy]

Z6, \"Geezer\"? Gee thanks! And how do you KNOW that those pieces are the BEST possible? I choose to think there are much more talented composer/Midi-ists out there than those who\'ve contributed to the listed selecitons thus far.

Radu Lupu, Brass is Roland and AO.

LHong, Those demos were all used with a mere stereo pair directly out of the gigaStudio..no mastering, nada.. The only effects were the NFX verbs.

[This message has been edited by MuzkGuy (edited 11-14-2001).]

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bardstown Audio:
It is quiet obvious that you have never hired a full orchestra or choir, and then paid for that orchestra or choir out of your own pocket. It is also obvious that you have never operated a business.

Kip
Bardstown Audio www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right about the choir. Wrong about the business. Are you saying that the only thing you take into account when pricing is your costs?

Gigasampler is very cheap. People don\'t have to spend $2,000-5,000 for hardware samplers anymore. The potential market is enormous. I\'m not saying these guys should charge $200. But if you can sell five times as many at $200, then it is an option is it not?

You guys can charge whatever you like. It makes no difference to me. Sure, I\'d like to own the Kirk Hunter for $200, but for $1,000 the MP3\'s of GOS sound in a different world (of course I\'m relying on my ears in this respect and sometimes they get clogged. But I do have ears, so don\'t go telling me how \'obvious\' it is that my ears are at fault).

I listened to you own offerings, and yes, I thought they were excellent. Well done. But I also thought they were too expensive so I won\'t be buying any of them.

I paid around $400 for Nick\'s Rare Instruments because I thought it was worth it. I don\'t understand fully how buyers make this value/cost ratio but one thing is true: The developer that can produce first-class work at bargain prices will clean up. I had hopes that Dan Dean would replicate his \'strings\' strategy by keeping the cost of his woodwinds and brass down. He didn\'t, so I won\'t be buying. It\'s not personal. I love the Dan Dean strings. What I\'d really like to know is whether Mr. Dean makes significantly less on his strings than his other stuff.

Remember, there is no reason that these libraries can\'t become \'best-sellers\' running for years and years with upgrades. If you want to keep the price up, do it, but don\'t tell me it\'s because of the costs.

Maybe Tascam can show the way here; start producing its own libraries; hiring the \'talent\' and getting the product to the public at rates where many thousands (or even millions) can be sold.

This business still lacks a competitive edge because the market used to be so tiny, and talented amateurs took up the torch. Maybe when it matures we\'ll be able to get better value for money. As I said: Sonic Implants are leading the way.

So, go buy those strings. Buy what you want. Charge what you want. If you hire an orchestra, charge the earth if you like. I don\'t care, but those strings certainly do not sound like an orchestra (or wait, maybe I should go dewax my lugs).

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MuzkGuy:
Z6, \"Geezer\"? Gee thanks! And how do you KNOW that those pieces are the BEST possible? I choose to think there are much more talented composer/Midi-ists out there than those who\'ve contributed to the listed selecitons thus far.


[This message has been edited by MuzkGuy (edited 11-14-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry if \'geezer\' is sounded rude. I wasn\'t trying to be rude. Where I come from, \'geezer\' just means \'guy\'.

I doubt that those pieces are the best possible. But they are pretty damn good. Certainly good enough for the listener to get a real feel for how good/bad the strings are. Understand that I don\'t think those strings are bad. They are indeed excellent.

I just went on a rant because I can live with strings that are not up the GOS standard: But everyone charges the earth for strings with the same lame excuse: \"It\'s so expensive to hire. . .\" So bloody what? I don\'t care. I don\'t care. Is anyone getting it yet? These string are great for $200 but it\'s a con at $1,000. No way.

You see, everything changed when GOS appeared. All those \'strings\' with the Eastern European names and destined for the bargain-basement section, because Garritan moved the goalposts.

And yes, I\'m relying on MP3\'s, because that\'s what the public gets to rely on.

And those demos were the best string demos I\'ve heard (now, I\'d really like to hear them done in GOS).

Again, apologies if I sounded rude. I just thought maybe a developer out there might hear it and stop whinging (KIP).

And yes, if I can\'t afford them, then that\'s tough, and yes, I can\'t afford $1,000 for strings, not when I\'m slowing buying up every other instrument in the universe as well.

[tomhartman]

\"We think that he just pointed out about some sort of violin recorded section, Fully achieve the symphonic-sized section like 24-Violin with multiple fast attack levels and various velocities. Here is an idea demo from KH site: http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/24vlnsdyn.mp3 (\"http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/24vlnsdyn.mp3\")


I\'m not sure who you were referring to...but I certainly wouldn\'t consider that demo convincing at all. Very synthetic sounding....sorry. JMHO.

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PatS:
Would you point us to a recorded example of the high violin sound you believe these libraries haven\'t \"nailed\"? What sort of musical context do you have in mind?

Thanks!

Pat<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Pat, just put on anything by John Williams, Goldsmith.....I don\'t know...anything you want...anything playing high, broad legato passages. I\'ve had great results from time to time with samples I\'ve used for these passages, but it is totally sheer luck and good reverb....the right passage, the right other stuff going on....etc. Nothing consistent.

The high violins give it away everytime for me, and I believe another poster up here agreed the other day amidst another thread we were discussing.

You could listen to anything, but some that immediately come to mind are things like the broad Main Title theme to \"JFK,\" the release of William\'s \"The Cowboys\" score (Main Title), Goldsmith\'s \"Chinatown,\" ..or listen to the recurring motiff in Silvestri\'s \"Back to The Future\" in the high strings.

These are huge sections and I don\'t think anyone has had the budget to capture this kind of thing yet....perhaps that\'s one of the problems. But I definitely don\'t hear it in the Hunter stuff... very synthy sounding, but if they work for you and others, terrific.

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MuzkGuy:
I put the works up because there was a request. I was not necessarily seeking opinions (especially not negative ones) on the library on this particular thread...

[This message has been edited by MuzkGuy (edited 11-14-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think honest criticism is helpful to anyone with an open mind, negative or not. Again, thanks for the demos!

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mahlon:
Tomhartman,
I have to disagree. These strings are some of the most realistic I\'ve used sitting in a mix. They have a great amount of realism, especially monophonic lines. And the faster detache sound great. No string library yet has captured it all, and while absolute realism is still elusive for us, this library certainly makes a good choice for creating a \'whole\' sound and making the experience very believable.

Mahlon<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I\'m glad they work for you.

It has been my experience that with the right song, reverb, EQ, and mix, not to mention phase of the moon, I have been able to get good results out of almost anything. But at the price point of many of these libraries, including the one being discussed, I expect them to do more than sit in a mix. As you say, that has proved elusive at best for all of the libraries, though Gary\'s has, with some reservations, been the closest in my work.

[tomhartman]

\"We don\'t own GOS, neither KH, we can\'t say much...But the KH DEMO is pretty high quality string-sample. Even though it has huge of verbs, however it must be a good sound source, otherwise verb wouldn\'t help that much.\"

Actually, just the opposite is true. I\'ve used some very marginal samples in the past, but they were put through high end reverbs which washed out their weaknesses to the point that they were more than passable. Never underestimate the power of a great reverb for virtually anything http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[Horst]

I am quite happy that Z6 made his opinions so very clear, though I would have choosen other words, but....anyway, I agree to the following points:

KH strings sound nice, but for the price you could expect them to sound more convincing.

I fully agree that the market has just begun to take off. Look at Miroslav strings today: Way too expensive. By the time in the tiny market he has made the money. KH strings will have to be measured against GOS.

Can´t say much about GOS. Homepage demos where great, user demos where well crafted but way not so convincing. There are many Beta testers out there telling it is really great...So what should I do ?

Quality will change with time: My friend plays the flute - she is an amateur. I mean it is incredible how horribly bad flutes there are on some known libraries: 50% air, 50% flute.

Or the broken, untuned, partly looped instruments on a known string collection: A total mess for a comparatively high price!

Quality will rise, prices will go down. It happens everywhere and it is called competition.

Let´s see.

[Lance_M]

I haven\'t really read through this thread, but I just wanted to say how funny I find this comment: \"I was not necessarily seeking opinions (especially not negative ones) on the library on this particular thread\".

lol, it\'s just funny, that\'s all.