Soliciting Opinions - Considering Going Back to PC from Mac

[LFO]

It is difficult to write the subject line, but it is true. I bought an iMac about 2 years ago and it was pretty much love at first boot. :) So far I've not had any problems with system resources, though that is because I do a fair amount of bouncing tracks, etc. to keep CPU consumption down. However, as some of my projects get bigger I can see me running into problems not too far down the road. Additionally, it is time for me to start doing research as I usually refresh my computer every 3 years.

So, why am I considering moving back to PC when I like OSX so much? The answer is simple: cost of the hardware. I would like to be able to load more instruments that are ready for me to use instead of having to play the instrument shuffle game. This is going to require more RAM and more CPU. I will want at least 16 gig of memory. Hence, a quad core Mac Pro is out of the question. (They only support up to 8 gig of memory.) Eight core Mac Pros start at a whopping $3,299 and that is with 6 gig of memory and a single 640 gig hard disk. Tack on Apple support, memory, 2 hard drives, and a wireless network card and you are near $4,000. (This is based on pricing from 3rd party vendors, not Apple.) I just don't think I can justify that kind of outlay.

Conversely, I can get a beefy i7 box with some extra bells and whistles (sound dampening extras) for just under $2,000.

It makes you think.

The downside? I lose OSX. That is a hard one. I lose Logic and DP and that is tough to swallow also. I regain Cubase. Great software, not so great company. I also gain all the hardware headaches I gladly left behind two years ago.

Since I'm at the beginning of this analysis I thought I would ask for your opinions on the topic. Please, please, please do not turn this into a flame war! I have zero interest in techno religion. :wow:

There could be some answers in the near future as Apple is rumored to be lowering prices, but I think this is going to be around the lower end models like Mac Book, (not Mac Book Pro) iMacs and Mac Minis. I would also rather wait until USB 3 is standard on motherboards, but that might be out too far in the future.

Any ideas and opinions would be appreciated!

-Kevin

[Reegs]

Well, if you buy the right interface and do some configuration and optimization when you get the rig, you won't have many of the problems you speak of. Interface-wise, you can get a great unit with solid drivers for around or under $1000 (RME, MOTU, Presonus). PCI, Firewire, and USB2.0 are all viable options with the capability for high track count.

Vista isn't so bad as they say either. With SP1 many of the little annoyances have been tweaked and its performance is fine. I don't have any experience with a 64-bit option, though many on this board run 64-bit systems with Sonar or Cubase 5 with excellent results. I run a Vista system on a laptop and experience very few troubles making music.

But yes, the simplicity of Apple systems is nice. I think it really should come down to whether you think saving $2000 is worth a workflow change.

(You also do get access to a whole bunch more of free VSTs should you make the switch! :p)

[reberclark]

I started out with a TI-994A then an Apple IIe (because it had expansion slots). But when music software started to get serious and I wanted into the game Macs were way too expensive. I went with PC and haven't looked back. With Windows 7 getting great pre-release reviews I see no reason to use a Mac at all. This isn't a flame, just the way I see it. Good luck!

[DPDAN]

Kevin, anyone can price out a Mac and make it sound like you're buying a house.

Why do you think you need 16 gigs of memory to produce a full orchestra? If it's a Garritan orchestra you won't need 16 gigs. I am running a Mac Pro 2 x 2.8 Ghz Quad-Core Intel Xeon with six gigs of ram, and just finished mixing my 2009 Garritan Community Christmas CD song which has exactly 60 instruments. All of them being produced inside Digital Performer 6.02 in real time, and I am running five Altiverbs, and 15 various DP plugins. I just loaded up the project just to make sure I am not talking out of the side of my mouth, and the CPU meter is hovering around 25 percent at idle, and when I hit play, the entire project plays flawlessly without any missed notes or any glitches of any kind, and the CPU meter jumped to about thirty percent, no sweat here...

I don't understand why you need three hard drives and 16 gigs of memory. The internal stock hard drive is over a half TB, but if you are using East West or VSL libraries, then I can see two additional hard drives.

I challenge you to build a Windows based computer with the same processors, same everything.... for less than a Mac Pro. Even if you could, what is your time worth? Also, you would INDEED be at a HUGE disadvantage because your new dual overhead cam PC with dual exhaust and fuel injection STILL will not be able to run OSX... That my friend is a MAJOR MAJOR disadvantage.

I personally don't mind the build quality of many PC's, it is the pathetic incompatibility with so many vendors making products for the Windows platform and driver issues.... geez. The awesome trust that one can experience in a virtually hassle free environment can only come when that user is using OSX in my humble opinion.

To each his own. but my computer did not cost four grand, and I don't need three hard drives and 16 gigs of ram to make music.

just my two cents.
Dan

[AlanPerkins]

I am very pro Windows, but am in awe of the loyalty and image around Macs. Personally I just don't understand Macs.

But I think all that is irrelevant to your question.

If you like the OS as much as you indicate, I think the question will be a very simple one to answer: Is the pain worth the margin in price? I doubt it.

From what you have said, I would stay with Mac and if money is an issue, question the need to buy something premium (as DPDan has said. Perhaps wait an extra year...

In summary: look at the marginal costs versus the marginal benefits, not the absolute costs versus the absolute benefits.

And that, my friend, is my two cents. Being Australian though, they are not worth quite as much as DPDan's two cents.

[DPDAN]

ha ha ha ha Alan :)

I also use a PC for samples of older libraries like GOS, but another thing that is very much worth mentioning is the fact that a Mac computer holds it's value amazingly well. There is something that a Mac lover has to accept, and that is they will usually come across as arrogant, almost as if their poop doesn't stink... I really don't mean to come off that way, I just wanted to post what can be expected with a Mac that does not cost upwards of four grand. I admit that kind of money for a music computer is pretty silly.

Alan, Apple computers operate pretty much the same as Windows, but
in the old days, they were nothing like the other platform. Today, they are very simple and extremely easy to adjust to after going from one to the other.

My most admirable thing about Apple computers is their uncanny reliability, and unbelievably easy drag and drop mentality between programs of all sorts.
Dan

[ejr]

As one who develops software for pcs and macs, my impression is that -- contrary to the company's ads -- relativly few people switch from one platform to the other and are happy about it. The brains of Mac addicts seems to be wired differently than pc users. And, athough Apple heavily targets the entertainment and publishing industries, in practice people of all types and professions use Macs and pcs.

If OSX makes more sense to you, then you should stay in that environment. Odds are you won't be happy with a pc -- especially given that VISTA has a lot of problem. It's slower, has compatibility issues with a lot of pre-VISTA hardware, and it seems like everything coming out of Microsoft in the last couple of years has been poorly designed. Case in point MS Offcie, where commands I used to use regularly are now hidden several layers deep in menus scattered all over the place, tasks that formerly could be done in one step now take several, and some things can't be done at all. (But, Mac users, don't get too smug. That's how most PC users feel about OSX when moving from the pc to a Mac.) As a developer I like pcs better because there is a more extensive knowledgebase (because there are more users) and though it is more difficult there is simply more that I can do with it.

The bottom line is that if you like Macs, for whatever reason, you should stick with them (and vice versa if you are comfortable with the pc). The cost factor is meaningless if switching platforms costs you time and makes it difficult for you to get your work done.

[sirbellog]

Just my story (a happy one) :

Some 8-10 years ago (I think), I was a convinced Mac user, and believed every horror story I heard about PCs and Windows.
So, despite the cost, I would try and keep up with the technological evolution, and since I'm just a homestudist, I satisfied myself with 2nd hand Macs of the previous generation.
But even doing so, each "new" machine would ruin my budget for several months...

Someday I happened to no longer be able to resist the call of Gigastudio, at the time it was the only sw sampler offering those fancy features (streaming, keyswitching, large libraries)
So after nights of nightmares and hesitation, I decided to dive into the dangerous and mercyless PC Sea, and bought myself my 1st PC.

One month later, Emagic probably decided to take revenge for some obscure reason, and in a single day my (brand new and costly) crossgrade of Logic from Mac to PC ceased to be supported.
This eventually forced me into xgrading to Cubase, a change I did really fear but in fact never regretted, all the contrary.

Since this switch, I never encountered any real problem, neither with the various OS (98, XP, Vista) nor the various machines I had.
I just stuck to well known audio interfaces and -all kind of- softwares. My only occasional gripes were with Gigastudio's buggy behaviour.

I never looked back, feel good with my PC, and here are some (obvious ?) reasons :

-there seems to be a much wider choice of -good- software for PC,

-financially speaking, keeping up-to-date, hardwarewise, is almost a breeze in the PC world :
* before, I did have to make tough choices -long term choices I mean, over many months- between investing into a new (2nd hand !) Mac on one side and into new sample libraries/plugins...
* Now I can do both almost at the same time, even more often if it pleases me, and all without too much pain.).
And by each upgrade, I just buy the vital parts, because one also can re-use at least 50% of the previous components (box, fans, drives, video card, sometimes even RAM...).

-I even came to like the Win interface.

The only "health discipline" I have for my machine is to make an image of my system drive every 2 months, combined with running free AVG as an anti-virus, and I do everything with my machine (even Internet).
My PC is fast, bug free, Vista SP1 works well.
The only software which does not run too well on it is...... well, Quicktime (some audio dropouts), but I can easily survive this "hassle".

So, to sum up my personal opinion on this subject :
I have absolutely nothing against Macs, and if money is not a problem at all, then why not ?
But if one really wants to have a powerful machine while remaining within the limits of a "good bang for the bucks" area, and with way fewer and smaller problems than some people would like us to believe, then I guess the choice is clear !

[robh]

It has been said by other Mac users before, that you'd get a better deal if you buy the bare bones computer from Apple and get the extra hard drives and memory from a third party. You'd literally be saving many hundreds of dollars.

Rob

[Craig F]

The Quad Mac Pros DO support 16 GB RAM (despite what Apple says). But right now, the 4GB modules are VERY expensive. OWC has verified this and sell kits. You could always upgrade down the road when it’s cheaper.

[LFO]

Thanks everyone for your replies! You've given me some things to think about. It really comes down to whether I value the OS and hardware reliability / simplicity enough to pay the premium.

Reegs - I did lose a few great VSTs when I moved to Mac, but I took the hit and it was worth it. (At least I keep telling myself that!) Now that I have Boot Camp I do boot into Windows and use several of them (Tones2 synths, etc.). My MOTU 828 works well in Windows so no issues there. (Thank heavens! Replacing the audio interface would be waaaay to expensive!) Ironically, I boot to Windows to use Pinnacle Studio for video editing. I'm not much of a fan of iMovie or the other big Apple video editor.

reberclark - I had a TI994a too! I purchased almost every expansion for it there was. LOL! I probably work 10,000 hours at an Eckard Drug store to afford the system with my Eckard discount. How bizarre is it that my first computer purchase was at a drug store?!
I'm as comfortable in Windows as I am Mac, though I think Macs bring a level of intuitiveness and simplicity that Windows has yet to find. I'm not a bigot one way or the other, it just feels that way to me.



DPDan, I hear what you are saying about RAM. 16 gig sounds like alot of RAM today, but what about 2 or 3 years from now? I'm not so sure. I'd at least want a box that could expand to 16 gig. I would also like to be able to load multiple libraries without having to worry about running out of RAM. 12 gig would probably suffice and is a valid number to start with. Will I fill up 12 gig or RAM? Not in the next 12 months, maybe never. However, I don't want to have to worry about hitting a ceiling either. So for an extra $150 dollars over the cost of 8 gig it is worth it to me. Sloppy? Probably. But reassuring. :)

Hardware incompatibility is such a pain! Having to workout every motherboard purchase around my audio interface and UAD cards was a nightmare! I agree that is added value on the Mac side.

You nailed on the hard drive requirements with East West. I like having the OS on one drive, samples on another, projects on another. I also stay away from huge (1TB) drives, I'd rather keep them at 500 gig or less. Backup drives are all external and I have lots of those. 1 backup for each internal drive and 1 backup for the backup drive. Overkill? Maybe. I lost data once long ago and I'm not going to ever again. :wow:

ejr - I agree. My experience with Windows starts in 1985 (I think) so I'm very comfortable in Windows. I've had Mac OSX for almost 2 years now and I am very comfortable there. I do like how OSX works better than Windows, but both are capable operating systems. Where Windows fails for me is the integration of the OS with hardware. It is mind numbing!

sirbellog - I think what you have to say is fair. See my chart below as a reference point. It comes down to how much one is willing to pay for added value. With the economy the way it is this question is more difficult to answer than it has been in the past.

robh - You are absolutely correct. See my chart below, I used pricing for all extras from OtherWorldComputing.com.

CraigF - Wow! Thanks for the tip! I had no idea and that is a great way to save $$$$. Nice!

Last of all, I thought I would share the little spreadsheet I've started comparing system pricing. I've got an i7 based system configured, a Quad Mac Pro and an 8 way Mac Pro. PC prices are from New Egg and QuietPC. Mac prices are from Apple.com and OtherWorldComputing.com. I've intentionally left out the cost of Windows because I have an XP license and Windows 7 pricing is unknown (though rumored to be high) at this time. Keyboard, mouse and monitor are not included on the PC because I already have those items. This is how I came up with the statements I made about costs. What do you all think?

http://www.box.net/shared/static/2i77trqeve.png


To me the comparison is reasonable. Cost seems to be a topic that many Mac users don't like to address. Many deny Macs are more expensive, others shy away from the topic, others declare it is the price to pay for added value and quality. I agree with those in the latter group. Added value justifies an added cost. The question is, how much is a person willing to pay for the added value? I'm still figuring that out for myself.

Is there anything glaring I missed in the chart?

-Kevin

[AlanPerkins]

Kevin you have listed the same Mac details twice with a different price for each...

[keithjfuller]

i'm with dan on this - i don't see why you'd need 16gigs of ram? i have 2 on my little macbook pro and i'm running projects with 30 instruments and TONS of little eq plugin-ins, reverb tracks, multiple instances of kontakt, kore, exs, ultrabeat, etc. before i see any hiccups. even then they are minor. but i get that in the future you might need some. i don't want to get blasted by pc users here (i don't have too many problems with PCs), but i feel like 8 gigs of ram on a mac with go a lot further than 8 gigs on a pc.

also, giving up Logic and DP is an enormous loss. i don't know how familiar you are with cubase, but it took me years to fully understand logic and that is probably the main reason i won't switch to anything else (even though DP seems to have a better midi editing).

in the end its your call but i can't begin seeing myself ever switching back.

[Jon Bryson]

i'm with dan on this - i don't see why you'd need 16gigs of ram? i have 2 on my little macbook pro and i'm running projects with 30 instruments and TONS of little eq plugin-ins, reverb tracks, multiple instances of kontakt, kore, exs, ultrabeat, etc. before i see any hiccups. even then they are minor. but i get that in the future you might need some. i don't want to get blasted by pc users here (i don't have too many problems with PCs), but i feel like 8 gigs of ram on a mac with go a lot further than 8 gigs on a pc.

also, giving up Logic and DP is an enormous loss. i don't know how familiar you are with cubase, but it took me years to fully understand logic and that is probably the main reason i won't switch to anything else (even though DP seems to have a better midi editing).

in the end its your call but i can't begin seeing myself ever switching back.

There's a lot to be said for sticking with what you know. As a PC user I've been tempted to switch to Mac just for the ability to use DP, but right now I'd say that's unlikely as A) I've got significant amounts of time, money and experience invested in the PC world and B) I'm a PC computer tech by trade so PC is what I know. I build my own systems so save both time (systems are very stable) and money.

I have customers who are Mac users, OSX is very impressive. If I were starting out from scratch it's almost certainly the direction I would go. But right now making music with what I have/know is more important than starting over again.

Good luck with your decision.

Jon

[LFO]

Kevin you have listed the same Mac details twice with a different price for each...

Oops, your right. I copied and pasted the data, changed the base price to an 8 way Mac Pro but did not change the label. The second Mac Pro is an 8 way.

-Kevin

[LFO]

It sounds like I really need to re-evaluate memory! If 8 gig will do the job then I need to go with 8 gig. I think I've been thinking with my gut regarding memory more than on data. Given my job, I should know better!

The DAW move is another biggie, I agree. I used Cubase for about 8 years, then switched to Logic and DP when I moved to the Mac. Logic was an easy move, I'm still getting my head around DP, but I do like it especially for orchestration.


Thanks again for all of the input, I really appreciate it! I'm gaining a clearer perspective and that is all good. :)

-Kevin

[Raymond62]

Lately my son compiled this Youtube on his iMac.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bX1f-q_XRQ


Raymond

[scientist]

what about going hackintosh? i'm not too familiar with the process, but i have one friend who runs one for graphic/video work, and just read about a successful build for audio. its definitely riskier than a mac, but if you're willing to take the plunge into experimental territory it could be the way to go. if it doesn't work then you're right where you started: back to pc.

one thing i always wonder about switching is software costs...i suppose most audio software is cross platform, but e.g. adobe charges the full upgrade price just to move from one platform to another. i feel sort of trapped, because if i moved to pc i have to add on another $1k for software changes.

[LFO]

what about going hackintosh? i'm not too familiar with the process, but i have one friend who runs one for graphic/video work, and just read about a successful build for audio. its definitely riskier than a mac, but if you're willing to take the plunge into experimental territory it could be the way to go. if it doesn't work then you're right where you started: back to pc.

one thing i always wonder about switching is software costs...i suppose most audio software is cross platform, but e.g. adobe charges the full upgrade price just to move from one platform to another. i feel sort of trapped, because if i moved to pc i have to add on another $1k for software changes.

If time were more available than it is then a hackintosh solution would be interesting. However, I have so little time to accomplish what I want to that living on the bleeding edge is too risky. I don't want to lose what time I have dealing with hard and software troubleshooting. ~|

-Kevin

[Styxx]

Kevin, don't do it! There has to be a way for you to continue using a Mac without breaking your bank. I agree with DPDAN. Also, I have two PC's and would give 'em up for one power mac. My wife just purchased an iMac from an apple store. Apple has a promotion when new upgraded units come out and offers anyone who purchases a unit several weeks before is entitled to turn it in for an upgrade. My wife purchased an iMac 20 that sold for $1200 for half the cost. The previous owner had it for one week. And, the same went for power Macs. I missed one severely loaded by one day. The unit sold for 1500 and was only two weeks old.

I am on a waiting list for next promotion specifically for a power mac. However, if you insist on purchasing a PC, get one for internet use only and another for your work.

Don't do it! :wow:

[NeoDavinci]

This thread has me concerned. I am using a MacBook Pro (I've recently switched) and have not fully relaunched my compositional system yet. I'm switching from Sonar, and I've settled on DP (though I've tested Logic extensively). I have the 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo with 4 GB of RAM—the last MacBook Pro before they went unibody. How many instruments should I expect to run with my MOTU Traveler?

[LFO]

Kevin, don't do it! There has to be a way for you to continue using a Mac without breaking your bank. I agree with DPDAN. Also, I have two PC's and would give 'em up for one power mac. My wife just purchased an iMac from an apple store. Apple has a promotion when new upgraded units come out and offers anyone who purchases a unit several weeks before is entitled to turn it in for an upgrade. My wife purchased an iMac 20 that sold for $1200 for half the cost. The previous owner had it for one week. And, the same went for power Macs. I missed one severely loaded by one day. The unit sold for 1500 and was only two weeks old.

I am on a waiting list for next promotion specifically for a power mac. However, if you insist on purchasing a PC, get one for internet use only and another for your work.

Don't do it! :wow:

LOL Styxx! You make it sound like an intervention. :) I appreciate what you are saying and agree. Where do you go to find the good deals on Macs? The Apple Store? I look at refurbished Macs on apple.com and it sometimes has good deals.

Overall, I appreciate all of the input people have given. I think you all have helped me decide that I should stick with Apple. )(~)(~)(~ I'm now considering some alternative ways to get things done. Get a Mac Pro, or perhaps hook my current iMac up with a new iMac with 8 gig of memory. Decisions, decisions. :) Fortunately I have plenty of time to figure it out.

-Kevin

[LFO]

This thread has me concerned. I am using a MacBook Pro (I've recently switched) and have not fully relaunched my compositional system yet. I'm switching from Sonar, and I've settled on DP (though I've tested Logic extensively). I have the 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo with 4 GB of RAM—the last MacBook Pro before they went unibody. How many instruments should I expect to run with my MOTU Traveler?

Hello NeoDavinci,
I would not be concerned. My iMac has the same specs and I can't recall a single time that I've run out or resources when using GPO. I have added other stuff that had higher requirements and then I would run into problems. This would be around 24 - 30 tracks. When it happens I bounce some tracks and keep on moving. Its not a big deal.

My goal is to be able to have some pretty big templates in place. These templates will consist of all sorts of different kinds of instruments (not all orchestral) and will require a significant footprint. Why? No reason other than it just sounds like fun to have it all sitting there waiting to be used. ~| It is kind of like a golfer who has more clubs than he needs. Its just good to know you've got a Big Bertha in the bag whether you use it or not. ;)

The great thing about GPO is that is requires less resources than any other library I've encountered. The same for the Garritan solo instruments. How Gary packs so much quality into such a small package is a mystery to me!

So, go forward with no fear. You've got a great rig and will be able to crank out plenty of music with it.

-Kevin

[dudefromthebronx]

Apparently, you have experienced the best and worst of both worlds. While it's great that we all have several choices in which OS we prefer to use, there is always a trade-off in what you can do. Windows still reigns supreme, though I'm not always happy with Microsoft's business practices. If the software you really need to use runs only on Windows, then I'd say switch.

[Wheat Williams]

This would be a bad time in history to switch from Mac OS X to Windows.

The reason is that Vista was a huge disappointment in all respects. But it's the only Windows OS you can buy now.

Microsoft is going to release Windows 7 next fall, and it is widely expected to be much better (how could it be worse?). The problem is that digital audio workstation, recording and virtual instrument software always lags behind the hardware. In other words, if Windows 7 actually ships in October 2009, it may well be April 2010, or later, before Pro Tools, Cubase, Ableton, Garritan ARIA, etc. are fully compatible with Windows 7. I have seen this time and time again in previous years in both the Mac and the Windows world.

If you buy a computer running Vista today you will hate it. If you buy a computer running XP today it will be okay but it's already obsolete, and future software may not be XP-compatible at all. So if you really want to go PC and Windows, I think you might find yourself needing to wait a year until Windows 7 is out and all the music software companies support it.

That being said, if you already have specific programs in mind for Windows recording, sequencing, virtual instruments and notation, see if those particular companies have released any statements about future Windows 7 compatibility. This may help you decide.

[LFO]

Thanks for the replies, dude and Wheat. :)

I hear what both of you are saying, in fact this evening really solidified my decision to stay with a Mac. Although there are several virtual instruments I miss that are Windows only I can live with them being in a boot camp partition. It is odd that you both brought up software because this evening I had a quick video I wanted to throw together to heckle a friend of mine that I beat playing Madden football today. (I've been playing Madden against friends since the game came out. A great rivalry!) Long story short, I was able to take the video from my Blackberry, edit it, add some custom graphics from web screen captures and convert the video format post it all in no time flat. (I'm not a big fan of iMovie, but for this small project it worked out perfectly.) I could never have gotten the job done so fast in Windows. It just has to do with how Mac apps are built. For my mind they are more intuitive and simpler to use.

In addition, I started using Bidule today as a host for various AUs and VSTis. It worked like a charm. Bidule works just fine on Windows from what I have read and that is all good. However, I also have options using the OSX IAC drivers and AU Lab for effects. Both solutions work like a charm! It just reminded me of the power of OSX and that there is solid value there. I'm not anti-Windows, there is alot of good to be found in XP and it looks like Windows 7 will have a great deal to offer. For me, OSX has worked out better.

-Kevin

[Wheat Williams]

There are a couple of authorized third-party dealers who often have good deals on closeout models of Macs (as in remaining stock of last year's model right after a new model is introduced).

Here's a handy chart:

http://www.appleinsider.com/mac_price_guide/

I've gotten good deals from Club Mac and MacMall