DP Dan's Mix Tutorial Question...

[reberclark]

Hello. DP DAN (or anyone who might be able to help me) I've read and followed your Audio Mixing Tutorial on the Garritan Tutorial page -fantastic! But would you clarify something for me?

In the section on "panning" do you usually pan your MIDI tracks (in KP2 or whatever) then convert to audio or do you convert all MIDI tracks centered THEN pan the new audio tracks?

I think in the tutroial you may have indicated that you panned the MIDI file then produced the audio, but a little more info will help me.

Thanks!

[DPDAN]

Hi Reber,
I'm glad the tutorial was some help.

I don't ever use the volume or pan in midi.
Modwheel yes, here's what I do,... I record each instrument to it's own individual audio track in DP.

When I load some instruments in the Kontakt player, the very first thing I do is set the volume to about zero db, this does not mean off, it means near full in the Kontakt player. Make sure the volume and pan is turned off by clicking on the little "gears" icon to the left of the loaded instrument.
If you have midi volume and pan data in your midi track, the Kontakt's volume and/or pan will be remotely controlled by the midi data, but we don't want that, so we set Kontakt to disregard any volume and pan CC data coming into the Kontakt player. CC = "control change" or some call it "continuously changing" data.

Here's a very short video (1.5 mb)

QUICKTIME (http://www.dankury.com/tutorials/KP2volumeandpan.mov)

WINDOWS (http://www.dankury.com/tutorials/KP2volumeandpan.wmv)

Since many of the instruments in GPO are mono, there is no need to waste computer ram resources for stereo audio tracks for a single instrument, unless of course that instrument in question is indeed stereo, like many of the percussion instruments and string "section sounds". I have provided a list below that shows the mono or stereo status of the individual instruments in GPO.

You will want to record each mono instrument in GPO to a mono audio track and stereo instruments to stereo audio tracks. In the Kontakt player, you can set the audio output (group or pair) to your specific audio tracks in your sequencer.

Set the input of your audio track to coincide with the KP group output that you chose for that instrument, and remember to set the pan. Depending on the power resources of your computer, you can record a bunch of instruments in one pass. More on this "panning thing" a little later on.

The Kontakt player uses group 1-2 for the main outputs, so it is not listed in the drop down list of available KP group outputs in the sequencer, (for assigning to audio tracks for recording).


If you have not already, you should create 15 stereo audio output groups in Kontakt 2's mixer. Here is a detailed post with everything you need to do to create these additional output groups. Once you follow these instructions, you will only have to do this once, then every time in the future when you open KP2 they will be there waiting for you, ready to connect digitally inside your sequencer.

Create lots of outputs in Kontakt 2 player

Native Instruments assumes that most users will be content with just two stereo output groups..... like [st.1] and [st. 2]

http://www.dankury.com/miscuploads/st.1.png

These can be seen in the upper left-hand corner of the loaded instrument in KP2.

1. Up at the top of the GUI, click on the
"outputs" tab unless you already have them showing,
(looks like a mixer).

http://www.dankury.com/miscuploads/outputstab.png

Now let's add 15 more stereo outputs, or groups if you want to use that term.

2. Select "Add Channel"

http://www.dankury.com/miscuploads/addchannel.png

you will get a pop up
window that says...

http://www.dankury.com/miscuploads/pleaseclose.png

hit "OK"
then click on "Add Channel" a second time, the
pop up appears again,
hit "OK" Do this 13 more times. This will give you
16 stereo outputs for each instance of KP2,... very cool.
The st-1 output will not be one of our "group outputs".

http://www.dankury.com/miscuploads/outputs.png

You will notice that the newly added
channels (faders) are named <new>.

3. On the <new> channel that is farthest to the left,
change it to 5-6.
To do this, double click on the word <new>
then type 5-6 then "ENTER".

4. Do the same thing for the next newly added
channel and name it 7-8.
Continue this renaming process with all the other newly added channels
all the way to 31-32.
If you are like me, you will want to rename [st.1] and [st.2] to
1-2 and 3-4 respectively.

5. Click on the "Conf." button on the bottom of
your newly added channel that you just named 5-6.

http://www.dankury.com/miscuploads/confirmbutton.png

6. In this "channel output configuration" box,
you will see the two mono channels,.... notice that
they are not assigned. Click on the top channel,
(ch# 01), then scroll down and select
"unassigned [5]"
Now select (ch# 02) and scroll down and select
"unassigned [6]"
hit "OK" to close the channel output configuration
box.

You will again get the annoying pop up....
hit "OK".

Next, do the same thing for all the rest of the channels, and naturally,
the next channel will be 7-8, so it will use unassigned 7 and unassigned 8 respectively.
I know this sounds confusing but just take it a step at a time.

7. Onward, back in the Kontakt Player 2 outputs
window, hit the tab labeled "Reset Out Map."

http://www.dankury.com/miscuploads/resetoutmap.png

You will get the pop up window again, hit "OK".

8. Hit the red "Make Default" tab, this is very important...

http://www.dankury.com/miscuploads/makedefault.png

You will get a new pop up that says "Output configuration was saved as
default" then hit "OK".

From now on, when you open a new instance of KP2, you will be able
to assign any loaded instrument, to any of the 16 stereo "pair" outputs of
your choice. In case you are reading this topic and don't know what a bunch of this stuff is...
read this, it will be helpful.

http://www.garritan.com/tutorial/AudioMixing.htm

If you have eight woodwinds loaded in a player, and you know they are all mono, you can set (assign) the first instrument to group output (3-4) but set the pan in the Kontakt player "hard left". The second instrument would also be set to group output 3-4, but this one would be panned "hard right". This method doesn't waste the stereo groups on just one instrument. The third instrument would be set to group output 5-6 panned hard left, the fourth instrument would be set to 5-6 and panned hard right, etc etc. Odd channels are left, and even channels are right.

You must remember this.... a kiss is just a kiss.,,, never mind :)
when we set the pan slider, we are not choosing where this instrument is going to be heard from on the "pan"oramic stage... but rather, we are setting it so that the instrument will be directed to a discrete channel of a group output.

Here is an example,... if you are using the Steinway Grand and a flute, you would need a stereo audio track for the piano, and a mono track for the flute. In your sequencer's mixer, the pan of the recorded piano audio track would be set "center" so that both channels of the stereo piano can be heard, while the flute's pan would be set wherever you want the flute to be on the stage from left to right, the choice is yours. Have fun with panning, experiment with it, but be careful when you pan things extremely far to one side or the other, those instruments will actually stick out in the mix if they are "over there" by themselves.

This is a list of the GPO instruments and their STEREO / MONO status.

I hope this helps.
Dan

All Flutes MONO

All English Horns MONO

All Oboes MONO except...
Oboe 2 Modern Solo and Oboe 3 Modern Solo (STEREO)

All Clarinets MONO
All Bassoons MONO
All French Horns MONO except...
Overlay F, Overlay F AG, and Overlay FF (STEREO)

All Trumpets MONO except...
Overlay, Overlay AG, TPT Piccolo NV Solo and TPT Piccolo V Solo (STEREO)

All Trombones MONO except...
Overlay and Overlay AG (STEREO)

All Tubas MONO except...
Overlay and Overlay AG (STEREO)

All Percussion Instruments STEREO except Snares KS (MONO)
All Harps STEREO
All Pianos STEREO
All Pipe Organs STEREO
All solo Violins MONO except... Violin 2 Strad Pizz Solo (STEREO)
All solo Violas MONO
All solo Cellos MONO
All solo Basses MONO
All section Strings STEREO

*NOTE* since Garritan now uses it's own ARIA engine, (player) some new brass instruments from SAM BRASS have been added that did not exist in previous "Kontakt" versions. These Sam Brass samples are all stereo. The new ARIA version of GPO referred to as "GPO4" can be purchased for $49.00, provided you have a previous legal version, and a serial number from Native Instruments. Go to www.garritan.com and get GPO4... it will include these Sam Brass samples, and the new ARIA player. :hp:
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[reberclark]

Dan,

Great info. I am running into a problem. Using KP2 as a standalone I can change the names of the new channels to "5-6" "7-8" etc. Inside my sequencer (SONAR 7) I cannot. I can highlight the name "7-8" etc but KP2 will not accept any changes to the label. Help!

[DPDAN]

Hi Reber,

I have had that same exact problem in Pro Tools, it's as if once you click on the Kontakt GUI, the computer keyboard is still connected to Sonar.

I do not know why but my guess is this is a Native Instruments issue.
I even tried to make the new outputs and name them in stand alone, and of course I could change the name, but Pro Tools did not recognize the newly added groups, even though I clicked reset out map and "Make Default".

I am interested to see what you find. Perhaps contact Native Instruments and see if they will give you a fix. They will probably just tell you that you need to buy KP3... That is not an answer to me.

I am proud that you are doing this, it will make computer life so much nicer for you.

Keep me posted :)
Dan

[reberclark]

Dan,

Thanks again for such a rapid response. I have found that I can re-name the channels in the configuration screen but have run into another problem there. KP2 does not indicate any unassigned channels above 14! I can configure everything through 11-12 but there is no option for "unassigned [13]" and up!

Buying Kontakt 3 is not an option for me either. I will continue to play with this but have a feeling I will fall back on the SONAR mixer.

If you have a solution for the configuring of channels 13 and up it would be good to see!

Thanks.

[DPDAN]

Probably your best person to ask here about that is Randy Bowser, since I don't use Sonar. I bet he can find the reason.

Dan

[reberclark]

Dan, Thanks. I will probably ask Randy but now for something a little different...

How do I add the surround 5.1 output back into KP2 if I want to? Can't seem to figure it out (not that I'll use it - just would like to know!)

Thanks.

EDIT: Okay I figured out how to do this (the 5.1 thing) AND I thought I had my initial problem solved (assigning up to 32 outputs) but not yet.

I will keep experimenting.

[reberclark]

It's late but I thought I'd report that I found a way to add and configure the channals in SONAR like DP Dan but although I am seeing MIDI activity on these channels I am not getting any audio. Will report back when sleep had been had!

[rbowser-]

My radar was on alert - I sense my name being called from across the internet ether--Yes, I was right!

Ah yes, getting all 16 stereo outs in KP2 using Sonar. For some time I had only 12 outs in my default mixer, and I remember that at the time I upgraded to KP2, it was being said on our tech Forums that this was the max.

O Contrare - The trick is you have to usurp the outs being used by the Aux buses 1 through 4. They're just audio outs like any other, except that NI has hardwired those faders into the GUI--so you won't get rid of the red bus faders, but you Can add channels so that you use audio outs 25 through 32 - the ones initially assigned to the aux buses.

If you're wanting to do some mixing inside KP2, using reverb sends etc--then you'll need those aux buses of course - But I think we're all pretty much with the program of wanting to use KP2 just as an audio engine to get our sounds out into our DAWs. If that's the case, then go ahead and add more channels as per the above - All your sending and busing et al will be done in Sonar's mixer.

Randy

[rbowser-]

Using KP2 as a standalone I can change the names of the new channels to "5-6" "7-8" etc. Inside my sequencer (SONAR 7) I cannot. I can highlight the name "7-8" etc but KP2 will not accept any changes to the label. Help!
You're trying to re-name them after clicking "config"-right? It looks like you can highlight and type in a new name right there in the mixer, but that doesn't work. With an instance open in Sonar, clicking Config at the bottom of each fader is where you change the names - just as you did when you routed the signals to the various outs.

Randy

[reberclark]

Randy, Thanks for the info - I did finally figure out I had to change the names in "config." My problem now is that I am not getting any audio from the additonal channels. I can see midi activity in them, I see audio activity in KP2 (on the instruments as well as the outs), but only if I route the outputs to the first out (1-2) do I get audio through my speakers. Is there a configuration I'm missing? Would the sound card limitations be involved? Any ideas?

[rbowser-]

Howdy, Reeb

Good, glad you got your faders in KP2 labeled. It's like any of the editing you want to do with the default layout in KP2, you need to do it through Configuration.

From going through this thread, I had the impression you were getting everything laid out in both KP2 and Sonar correctly - but apparently you're not quite there yet.

So, back to an earlier step - Are you setting up audio tracks in Sonar to be paired with all these KP2 outs? When you first insert the instance of KP2, in the insert dialogue you should ask for All Audio Outs so that all the tracks are inserted into the project for you. If you don't do that, you can still insert audio tracks in Sonar by hand and then configure them correctly - it's just an unnecessary step if you ask for those tracks in the first place.

In any case - even though I read here that you've configured your signal flow, let's go back to the headers on the left for all your tracks in the Track View of Sonar.

Here's a screen shot of a MIDI file directed to its appropriate KP2 channel:

http://rbowser.tripod.com/track-header-sonar.JPG

The input ("I") is from my sound card, the Alesis io|2. The output for this Piccolo track is to the first instance of KP2, and to MIDI Channel 1. In my KP2, the Piccolo is on MIDI Channel 1 and its audio output is to the first stereo pair.

Then, in the header of the audio track which corresponds with this MIDI track:

http://rbowser.tripod.com/track-header-audio-sonar.JPG

The In is to the first pair of audio outs in KP2. If that window was clicked, I'd have the list for all the possible outs from KP2 - mono single channels, and the stereo pairs.

Is that the way you have your stuff set up?

Randy

[reberclark]

Randy, thanks for hanging in there with me on this. Yes, I have my tracks set up in SONAR so that they link to my instance of KP2 and the instruments loaded in KP2 and their MIDI channels.

What I am running into is that when I want to assign an instrument to a KP2 output, let's say assign a trumpet to output 7-8, I get indications of MIDI and audio, but no sound. I only get sound when I assign that instrument to output 1-2. This is the same for all channels.

I have the feeling I'm missing something very basic (yes, my speakers are on!:)) or don't understand some fundamental of working with more than one KP2 output. I have had great results working another way, but I am trying DP Dan's multi-ouput approach to "stretch my boundaries."

[rbowser-]

"...I am trying DP Dan's multi-ouput approach to "stretch my boundaries..."

OH my yes - I think it's mandatory to use all the audio outs. I would go totally insane if I had to put up with everything coming out of one measly little stereo channel. Yikes!---how could you do any decent mixing?

Where are those audio channels in Sonar directed? In the Console View (Mixer) at the very bottom of each channel strip there's a place to choose where the audio output is going. For a fully set up project, those should be directed to your Master bus, which in turn is routed to your sound card.

Take a thorough look in the Mixer - it's the place to be to get the Big Picture of what's going on with a project's audio.

Randy

[reberclark]

Randy - I have all audio tracks routed to busses which route to the master (all string tracks to a string buss etc). Also each audio track has an effect send to Garritan Ambience. This is not the problem.

I will try to explain...Let's say I have only two outputs set up in KP2 designated 1-2 and 3-4. I then route each loaded instrument to one of these outputs - maybe trumpet to 1-2 and clarinet to 3-4. Each instrument is also set up so that its MIDI channel corresponds with its MIDI track in SONAR. What then happens is I can hear the trumpets on 1-2 but get nothing from my speakers from 3-4. I see MIDI activity on 3-4, I see audio activity on 3-4 but nothing from the speakers. If I re-route the clarinet to output 1-2 I hear it just fine.

EDIT: I am using a single instance of KP2 for all of these examples. When I go into the audio routing (Kontakt Player 2 1 track) and route the KP2 output to 3-4 (kt. st 2 stereo) then I hear everything from 3-4 just fine. But...in DP Dan's example he has 16 stereo pairs in a single instance of KP2 and I assumed (!!) that using the OUTPUT designation in each loaded instrument one could route that instrument's sound to ANY output.

I used to feel like this in math class! I missed one little thing and the rest of the lesson was shot! Sorry to appear so dense.

[rbowser-]

H'lo again - I keep re-reading your post, both the original I got via auto-email and the amended one here at the Forum - and I can't see where you're going wrong. It Sounds right.

Can you do a screen shot showing the apropos portion of your Sonar Mixer so we can see where everything is routed?

And/or - I came here with an idea for an experiment. Sometimes when setting up our signal routings, things can get messed up and it can take awhile to untangle them. Have you tried taking these audio outs and going directly to your sound card? If so, then things are correct up to a point--In other words, perhaps you could try simplifying your test project so you can keep narrowing down the possible errors.

"...in DP Dan's example he has 16 stereo pairs in a single instance of KP2 and I assumed (!!) that using the OUTPUT designation in each loaded instrument one could route that instrument's sound to ANY output..."

Yes, that's correct. As long as you really have all the matching tracks in Sonar, you should be able to route your instruments to any out and any track you want. "The output designation"--that marries that instrument to the corresponding Sonar track.

Randy

[reberclark]

Randy - again thanks for the extraordinary amount of time you've put in on this.

I will check and double check, even create from scratch, everything. I have some projects due which I can do with the way I am used to working so it may be a few days but I will post screen shots of my process and routings on this problem soon.

Hopefully it's just something very simple that I am missing (like a brain:)).

[DPDAN]

hi guys,
thanks Randy for helping with this,,

Reber, just to make sure...
when you assign (route) a specific instrument to a specific group output in KP2, does only that stereo meter move with the music?

watch this wmv... (http://www.dankury.com/tutorials/KP2groupoutputs.wmv)

For instance do this small test,

if you already have a trumpet loaded,
route it's audio input to group 11-12.

Mute every midi track in Sonar except the trumpet track.
Of course,,, make sure there are some notes in the trumpet midi track that will play in the range of the trumpet.

Hit play, and look at the KP2 mixer and make sure that the meters of only group 11-12 are moving to the trumpet notes. My guess is that the meters are moving. If they are, create at least one stereo audio track in Sonar and set the input to KontaktPlayer2-1 11-12.

Set your trumpet audio track to record, (arm the track for record, usually red) then go back to where your trumpet notes are and hit record.

After a few notes you should see the audio track recording just the trumpet.
Regardless of whether or not you heard it while it was recording is not important for this part of the test.
After you stopped recording, do you see the waveform in the audio track?

If not, then somehow, when you were assigning your newly added group outputs in KP, it is possible that they were assigned the wrong [unassigned out]

Do these tests for us and let's get this sorted out for you so you can make some music.

HANG IN THERE
Most people would have given up way before now.

Isn't it rediculous that Native Instruments didn't create 16 stereo group outputs by default to begin with,,, why make the customer go through all this crap? Man those people amaze me.

Dan

[reberclark]

Okay guys...in the past when I've added KP2 to a new project in the Synth Rack window I've just checked the "First Synth Audio Output" box and run all tracks through that one Audio output that was created. I figured One KP2 to one Audio out.

When I checked (this time) "All Synth Audio Outputs: Stereo" I got 16 channels, tied to one KP2 player. I think this is what I've been missing.

In KP2 I went through and deleted the surround channel and added 14 more channels to the existing 2 (1-2, 3-4, 5-6 etc). Now it gets a bit confusing. I went through and used the aux and unassigned channels and tied them to each stereo pair (5-6, 7-8 etc.) Then I hit Reset Out Map and Default. When I closed my project and opened a new one (which included the "All Synth Audio Outputs" checkbox when I added the KP2 Player) all the stereo pairs were there through 31-32 on all 16 channels.

I swear I did this before and it didn't work. I must've overlooked something.

Anyway all pairs work and as I assign instruments to them everything is routed to the appropriate place and is audible!

I have been operating under the assumption that I had to squeeze all of my instruments, per KP2 player, through ONE Synth Audio output (one KP2 one output, two KP2s two outputs etc). My track configuration included only MIDI tracks and one track per KP2 player.

Am I correct that I now actually need an extra set of "audio out tracks," each a stereo pair, in addition to my MIDI tracks (per player)? This makes things amazingly flexible but that's ALOT of tracks!

If I am on the wrong "track" (ha ha) please advise. If so, I will start over. In any case I will attempt to duplictae what I have done sometime tomorrow.

Again, Dan and Randy, thanks for the amazing help and patience.

[rbowser-]

hehe--The Light Bulb goes on! Don't you love what that happens.

Yessirreee, Reeb - it's as I said several posts back:

"...Are you setting up audio tracks in Sonar to be paired with all these KP2 outs? When you first insert the instance of KP2, in the insert dialogue you should ask for All Audio Outs so that all the tracks are inserted into the project for you..."

A lot of ideas and info were thrown at you, this didn't quite sink in. Glad it has now though!

"...Am I correct that I now actually need an extra set of "audio out tracks," each a stereo pair, in addition to my MIDI tracks (per player)?..."

Yes yes yes, as per DAN's tute. That's the way the instruments get their sound out into the air--they each need an audio channel.

You got it--Save templates, use them forever, you got it--go make music!

Randy

[reberclark]

Ah yes! Music! I sorta remember what that might be...

Thanks again for all of that info. My brain hurts and I apologize for missing the info in an earlier post. Gaaa. I am trained as a musician not as a tech!

I will have more questions as I play with this new configuration I'm sure. I have a feeling this will add breadth and scope to my stuff. If you have any suggestions or tips on how you use your 16 stereo pairs, and what advantages you have found to this, I would happily read your answers and gather your knowledge.

Thanks again guys.

[reberclark]

WELL THE DIFFERENCE IS INCREDIBLE!

Man, I was existing in a very very narrow world. Utilizing the 16 stereo pairs has added such a breadth of sound to even my most minor experiments that I don't know how I kept interested without them. Randy you are so right, forcing all the sound through one stereo pair was a draining and stifling experience compared to this.

Dan & Randy thanks so much for hanging in there. I am amazed at the difference in sound and the much easier and apparent placement of instruments in the pan field. The feeling of SPACE is fantastic. Now, I can breathe.

All I can say is "wow" and, Dan, yes I am amazed that NI doesn't configure the KP2 this way initially. What are they thinking?

Do either of you guys have a signal chart (or something like a "sound flowchart") for how the 16 outs work? I figure MIDI triggers the sound (instrument) which produces the sound and routes it to the output assigned in KP2. What does this ouput to? and why is it so much clearer than routing everything through one stereo pair? Don't they all end up on the same two audio channels eventually?

I am really excited about the way this sounds. I have to revise all of my current projects immediately. This changes everything.

[rbowser-]

REEB! What a great post. SO cool to see you all set up and enjoying what a difference it makes. It really does, with so much more control, better sound. More thingies to slide around and all that, but it actually makes it easier to get good recordings.

Yaaah!

"...I figure MIDI triggers the sound (instrument) which produces the sound and routes it to the output assigned in KP2. What does this ouput to? and why is it so much clearer than routing everything through one stereo pair? Don't they all end up on the same two audio channels eventually?..."

Yeah, you got that right - and then the outputs from KP2 are going to their individual assigned audio outs in Sonar. Simple! As to why it sounds better even though they end up going through one stereo master at the end - Well, not sure I can tell you why, except --well it does sound better, fer sure. Dan could probably explain the techno reasons.

Very happy for you--Hope everyone who doesn't have KP2 configured right gets inspired when they see this thread.

Randy

[DPDAN]

I am so glad you got it all going the way it should be...

Thanks Randy and Reverber! :hp:

Dan

[rbowser-]

hehe--"Thanks Randy and Reverber"---I understand you returned to fix a typo, Dan, since you originally had me as "Rand"--BUT I didn't mind that when I saw it in the auto-email. I kind of liked the association with Ayn Rand, one of the few conservative types I've admired! :)

And you were so right when you said, "...What an awesome powerful thing this forum can be..."

Ups and downs, disagreements and all, I choose to believe we're one awesome and united group of artists. Hugs all around! ;)

Randy

[AlanPerkins]

I have been reading this post and cannot believe how helpful and persistent you have been.

I had NO IDEA you could do any of this. So LOOK OUT, I will be trying this myself - I hope everything here covers it for me.

Thank you so much for the higly valuable information

[rbowser-]

"...I had NO IDEA you could do any of this...."

~!~

wow, Alan, you of all people! - What I had no idea of is that all this wasn't sussed out by everyone 2 or whatever years ago it was when KP2 came out.

DAN has it So right when he said that it's a mystery why Native Instruments didn't make the Kontakt Player 2 default to this 16 stereo channel default. It's nutty, because the only reasonable way to work is with each instrument on its own audio channel, and the way KP2 comes up has room for only 2 instruments in that configuration--!--instead of the full potential of 16--or more if you're using Dan's method of keeping mono instruments to mono tracks.

I'll say the best thing about KP2 is that it's trying to be a complete mixer for notation users. You can strap in reverb and a large variety of effect right there in the interface. But those of us who use sequencing software like Sonar only want the straight, pure instrument signal in our applications so we can do what we want with them inside Those. All the effects in KP2 are bypassed so we can add them in our apps. And we Must have each instrument on its own channel - its own track, so we can pan, add effects, work with its volume etc in total isolation with the rest of the mix and do all that inside our sequencers which have a lot more to offer than just the audio engine of Kp2.

I remember I took a long time to upgrade to KP2 because so many people were having problems with it. When the smoke cleared, I finally took the plunge - I availed myself of all the explanatory posts from people like NICKIE - one of the greatest but unsung hero(ines) of this Forum - and soon I was supremely happy to have made the upgrade. To have all those instruments available to me on their own channels in Sonar--heaven.

Here we are whatever number of years later - I'm just glad that everyone is catching up!

Randy

[NDEE]

Dan has it So right when he said that it's a mystery why Native Instruments didn't make the Kontakt Player 2 default to this 16 stereo channel default. It's nutty

I guess (and hope) the GPO4 ARIA player will take us to the next level, well beyond this KP2 nonsense!

NDEE

[rbowser-]

I guess (and hope) the GPO4 ARIA player will take us to the next level, well beyond this KP2 nonsense!

NDEE
I can say with authority that there's much more to the ARIA player than this, but at the very least, it offers the full 16 channels and their companion audio channels abundantly clear and accessible to users.

Randy

[NDEE]

I can say with authority that there's much more to the ARIA player than this, but at the very least, it offers the full 16 channels and their companion audio channels abundantly clear and accessible to users.

Randy

I feel it's going to be the best $49 purchase I'll ever make!!!

NDEE

[AlanPerkins]

Randy, that's why I couldn't figure out how you could get multiple outputs from your bounce to tracks!

I had thought you must be using separate Players for each instrument!!

It also explains what the heck is the difference between the Multi and the other version of a yet to be released Player product.

[David Hepworth]

Okay, I have found this thread to be very enlightening, and I thank each of you for such great input. However, when I attempt to follow these directions, I find the following problem: After deleting the 5.1 channel, then attempting to assign the outputs to each channel, I still have several outputs labeled sur. 5.1. Then after these I have the aux outputs listed, then the unassigned outputs. If I assign unassigned 5-6 and ff, to their respective outputs, and use the aux outputs, I don't have enough outs to assign to the entire 32. So, my question is do I utilize the outputs for the sur 5.1 and is there a way to rename these outputs to make them easeir to use with respective channels?

I hope I made sense.


Thanks,
Dave H.

[raweber]

David - you may be struggling with the same issue I was earlier on. In order for your changes to show up in the sequencer when you go to assign audio tracks, you HAVE TO set it as the default. Then the next time you open KP2 it will show up that way.

If your problem is within KP2, here's a trick:

When you are assigning outputs, each one in the drop-down list will have two names - one a label and one with just numbers. These numbers are the raw outputs from KP2 and what you want to keep track of as you are assigning your outputs.

Good luck and keep plugging away - it eventually works, I promise!

[rbowser-]

This thread has been enlightening to me also - I really hadn't thought that were people still struggling with setting up KP2 and then getting it to work in their apps.

NI actually created a very hip thing with KP2, they just Majorly blew it when they didn't make the process more intuitive in how to Use the darned thing.

As I said earlier, the up-coming Aria will have all 16 channels and faders set up as the default - there'll be No mystery about what the user is supposed to do.

Alan! - OH man - !!

"...Randy, that's why I couldn't figure out how you could get multiple outputs from your bounce to tracks!

I had thought you must be using separate Players for each instrument!!

It also explains what the heck is the difference between the Multi and the other version of a yet to be released Player product..."

Dang, I wish I would've understood that there was still info missing for you. It must have been very mystifying, some of the explanations I've posted before. Well, glad it's finally all clear!

But what were you referring to there at the end - "...a yet to be released Player product..."--? At first I think you're referring to how there are different .dlls for the KP2 - One gives you just 2 tracks, and I sometimes load that when I need just a few more instruments but don't want the CPU load of a the full player. But I don't know to what you're referring in the last part of that sentence.

raweber - This is grand to see you now passing on the information torch. You're doing great in trying to help David out there.

Randy

[David Hepworth]

If your problem is within KP2, here's a trick:

When you are assigning outputs, each one in the drop-down list will have two names - one a label and one with just numbers. These numbers are the raw outputs from KP2 and what you want to keep track of as you are assigning your outputs.

Good luck and keep plugging away - it eventually works, I promise!


Raweber Thank you for your reply. The problem that I am having is within KP2. The sur. 5.1 outputs are listed as sur 5.1 (1), sur 5.1 (2) etc through 5.1(6) . Now it is not a big deal, however, if I use these ouptus, will they lose the 5.1 designation so that I can keep straight which output is with which channel?


Thanks,
Dave H.

[DPDAN]

Hi David, my instructions no longer recommend deleting the 5.1 outputs.
You don't need to use those "channels" in order to have enough for your newly added channels.
No big deal though if you have already deleted the 5.1 channel.
Dan

[RichR]

I guess that I am not using either half of my brain. I cannot find the original tutorial that this discussion is centered on. I remember going through it a long time ago, but have forgotten the way to set it all up and would love to review it again. However, that may be a mute point after the ARIA engine driven GPO comes out.

Where is the tutorial? I have been to the garritan home page (www.garritan.com (http://www.garritan.com)) and looked up the tutorial page in the support menu but for the life of me, I cannot find said tutorial. Suffice it to say, I believe this thread probably contains the meat of the tutorial but I just want to be sure I am not missing any info!

Thanks

[reberclark]

Hi Rich, This is the location of the tutorial by Dan Kury (DP DAN) that launched my initial inquiry:

http://www.garritan.com/tutorial/AudioMixing.htm

However, it quickly led to the revelatory discussion in this thread!

[DPDAN]

Hi Rich,
I know what you're talking about, and could not find it either, so I went to www.motunation.com which is where DP users congregate. Since I had posted the "Additional KP2 Outputs" in their "tips" section, I went there and copied the post and brought it back here.

I wish the folks at NS would get the search engine on this forum working good.
Everything you should need is in this topic. If you get stumped of course ask away.

I noticed a funny spelling error in your post,, you said "mute point" as in moot point,, it's as if we have audio on our brains when we type,...
I Shure hope this has been helpful.


Dan

[David Hepworth]

Thank you all for your help. I have gotten it resolved. Everything is set up as it should be now. Now if the new Aria player would just come out./....

Thanks again.

[RichR]

LOL Dan...

I had to go bach to my post and reed it again. I can't believe I wood wind up doing something like mis-state a word. ~|

[DPDAN]

HA HA HA HA HA HA

I wish I had a dime every time I saw someone here spell sure like "Shure Brothers",, every time it makes me think of the almighty God-awful SM57 and 58.
Dan

[rbowser-]

"...it makes me think of the almight God-awful SM57 and 58..."

I'll have to inform a good sound engineer friend of mine that his main "go-to" mike, the SM57, is God-awful. And here was thinking he was getting great recordings, poor deluded man. :)

Randy

[AlanPerkins]

"...it makes me think of the almight God-awful SM57 and 58..."

I'll have to inform a good sound engineer friend of mine that his main "go-to" mike, the SM57, is God-awful. And here was thinking he was getting great recordings, poor deluded man. :)

Randy

I don't know... Anything as awful as God has to be pretty good I would have thought!

[DPDAN]

I don't know... Anything as awful as God has to be pretty good I would have thought!
please forgive me :) Biblically speaking, I took the Lord's name in vain by saying they are God Aweful. Isn't that about the biggest oxymoron there is "God - aweful"

Anyway, God is good! but I just can't stand how insensitive those mics are.
Two inches from the mouth and the popping is atrocious and the excessive proximity effect, then two inches further away, and the vocalist is thin and gone.

People who love those mics have not done much studio recording. The fidelity is just horrible. But when you consider the large amount of users who "love" them, those are the mass, and the mass have no clue how nice a condensor mic or a much better quality dynamic mic can sound on a vocalist. Please don't tell me that people use these for instruments.
OH MY WORD! :p

he he... picky picky picky
me

[rbowser-]

hehehe---Well at times we All stoop to hyperbole to express and bolster our opinions, but to say something as absurd as "...People who love those mics have not done much studio recording..." is so false and insulting to all the pros who use them that it's laughable. It would be more prudent and believable to simply say you prefer other mikes and have your reasons. Good heavens!

Randy

[AlanPerkins]

I just want to make it clear I was purely having some fun at the English language. Not intending to have a go at anyone.

As to the SM57 and SM58, I bought one of each because I got a really good deal, but I haven't really used them at all. They seem to be reasonable value for the money. But to be honest, I wouldn't know a good mic from a bad one.

What, Dan, do you consider to be good mics?

By the way, I am not sure I have thanked your this invaluable piece of work.
I had intended to spend some serious time this weekend on it, but I had promised to do a favour for a friend and update their website. I ended up in a browser compatibility war with javascript between IE8, IE6 and Firefox. I didn't finally get to bed until 3:30 this morning.

[DPDAN]

It would be more prudent and believable to simply say you prefer other mikes and have your reasons. Good heavens!

Randy

you're right,

[DPDAN]

What, Dan, do you consider to be good mics?



There are so many that are just so much better sounding.
Here is a list of mics that are superior IMO... especially for
handheld use, but also these are great for instruments too.

Neumann KMS105
AKG 535 EB
and many mics made by Sennheiser too!

So many people are in the dark about Shure 57 and 58 mics with regard to this quality issue. For so many years, these Shure dynamic mics have been used for just about everything. What people don't know is just how unreliable they are from a frequency response perspective. If you ask 100 professional live sound engineers, most of them will tell you that they like the Shure 57/58. They would also say this Dan guy is an idiot. Anyone who doesn't love a 57/58 doesn't have much experience. I am not trying to make fun of anyone who owns a few and likes them, I own one of each, but I almost never use them.

When a traveling group of singers has a half dozen 58's, after a few of them get dropped, a good sound guy/gal starts noticing that some of them just sound bad.... and here's why, these dynamic mics use a capsule that for all intents and purposes is a tiny speaker with a magnet, voice coil and cone. If you want a magnet to no longer be magnetic, bang it on an anvil a few times and it will turn into a boat anchor. Of course nobody treats microphones like that do they? :) But every time the mics get banged around and dropped, the magnet becomes weaker, gain is lower and noise is radically higher. Noise is another thing that is bad with many dynamic microphones. So why do so many people buy them if they're so bad?

Alot of people don't know these things, and these are things that I have learned by using so many different types of mics. Dropping a dynamic mic on a concrete floor won't break it, and dropping a condensor mic on a concrete floor won't break it either, but when you pick them both up, the condensor will sound exactly how it did when it was new, the dynamic mic probably won't. The reliability of condensor vocal microphones for live use has come a long way since about 40 years ago, the AKG 535 and the Neumann and Sennheiser condensor vocal mics are unbelievably durable, and I would put any one of them up against a 57/58 in any situation, except maybe out in the rain, that's when I give the vocalist my most favorite mic of all for outdoor use, a Shure SM-58. Hey, they probably think "man this thing rocks!" I just smile. :)


he he, to each his own, lets get this back on topic.

Dan

[reberclark]

he he, to each his own, lets get this back on topic.

Dan

Hi Dan.

Would it be possible to give a "simple (haha)" explanation for the reason using 16outs (versus 2) in KP2 sounds so much better? Stereo placement seems much better to me (which I use when "developing" the piece with MIDI - I pan to the middle when rendering to audio, then re-adjust) I suspect it's a pipeline issue - cramming too many frequencies through two outputs must cause alot of "arguements" among the waveforms. BUT when it is all put back together through my two stereo speakers - why doesn't it "argue" then? This is not a big issue - I am so happy with the sound of the 16outs - but out of curiosity, and the possibility of usable info, could you educate me a bit?

Thanks as always!

[DPDAN]

Hi Reber,
You need to quit using midi volume and pan.

As I mentioned earlier, you should be using the pan in the KP2 player only for directing the sound to the left or right channel of the group output you chose for that instrument, (when it is a mono instrument). If it is a stereo instrument, I highly recommend setting it to center, then do with it what you want when you are mixing in Sonar's mixer.

I sure hope you open and read Sonar's manual and learn how easy it is to create all kinds of automation for volume faders, aux sends, plugin automation etc. I hate to beat a dead horse, but in case you have not seen this video about automation, you should, it is the only way to make a super smooth mix.

WINDOWS (http://www.dankury.com/tutorials/violinautomation.wmv)

MAC (http://www.dankury.com/tutorials/violinautomation.mov)

There is no reason why things would sound any better... except that when everything is piped through the single stereo output of KP, you have nowhere near the control of sound compared to routing every instrument to it's own track in Sonar and then mixing.

Think of midi volume (CC7) and pan (CC10) as remote controls for those features in KP2.

You never want midi pan or volume CC data in the midi track to be in control of those sliders in KP2. We want to set those sliders ourselves to properly route the audio to the correct odd/even channel.

Your thought that a lot of instruments clutters up the fidelity when too many are all crammed into a stereo mix in KP2 compared to a final stereo mix is a normal concern, but not one to be concerned with. It would take far more time to go into what makes a complex waveform. I don't have the knowledge or schooling to go into all that. Sorry for some long run on sentances :)

The difference in quality that you are experiencing though, is directly related to the fact that you have individual instruments inside Sonar's windows to manipulate and mix...., that my friend is radically superior to having them all trapped inside one box.

Did that help?
Dan

[reberclark]

Hi Reber,
You need to quit using midi volume and pan.

As I mentioned earlier, you should be using the pan in the KP2 player only for directing the sound to the left or right channel of the group output you chose for that instrument, (when it is a mono instrument). If it is a stereo instrument, I highly recommend setting it to center, then do with it what you want when you are mixing in Sonar's mixer.



Dan, thank you. I don't pan in the KP2 - only in SONAR. BUT, I will only pan my rendered audio from now on!

Your advice on mono/stereo has uncluttered my mixes as well.

EDIT: I use a little automation in SONAR, mainly on volumes, but watching your EQ automation was very impressive. I can only aspire to that level of control and perception!

As to your Susan Boyle thing - I agree BUT I wanna hear ya!)(~

Bye Bye now.

[DPDAN]

I removed the links

[reberclark]

Dan! That was...was...uh...

I think her hand movements were what "sold" it.

Plus your dress wasn't the same :wow:.

Okay, back to the software!

[DPDAN]

he he .................

[AlanPerkins]

Very cute Dan!

[rbowser-]

ok don't everyone laugh at once

The critical annotations on your video were aimed at yourself, right, Dan? ;)

In answer to your earlier question, no I'm not tired of seeing Susan Boyle on the web.

I love her.

But then my attention span seems to be longer than the A.D.D., You Tubing, chew 'em up and spit 'em out hordes crowding the internet.

Randy