Panning issues with Kontakt Player 2.4

[sylva]

Hi all.

I'll delve into the problem without further ado.

I wrote a 5.5 minute piece for brass band with Trumpet and Fluegelhorn solos. Since I don't have C&MB, I used GPO's and Jabb's brass. Formally the piece is ABA with a coda. Orchestrally there are 2 concertinos and a large group. It's not Concerto Grosso. Anyway, the Concertinos have their own Kontakt players and the large group its own as well. 2 tubas are used, one from JABB, the other, the ContraBass, from GPO. Here's the rub:

I can pan the Tuba from JABB, but not the ContraBass form GPO. This relegates the ContraBass to the center, a position that doesn't yield the best results acoustically. The JABB Tuba is in a Concertino, the GPO ContraBass is in the large group's Kontakt Player. No matter what I do, Kontakt just weakens or amplifies the sound as a function of the instrument's stereo cursor's position, but does not modify instrument position in the stereo field. This is also true with some of the horns and trombones, however, most can be panned. Total number of tracks is 30 and I don't have more than 16 instruments per Kontakt Player. I've met this phenomenon when writing purely JABB works as well, but now it's time to put it to scrutiny.

Any opinion is welcome and I thank all who will pitch in :confused:

Sylva.

[lunker]

How are you trying to pan the instruments? Are you sending MIDI pan CC? Or are you using a track's pan fader in a DAW?

My guess (without additional information) is that the tuba is a mono instrument that is MIDI panned primarily to one side, and perhaps you are sending it to a DAW stereo track that you are trying to pan in the DAW. If the tuba is only on the left channel of the stereo pair, then panning to the the right channel of the DAW track will only have the effect of diminishing the tuba.

If that's what you are doing, there are a couple of solutions. The first is to send MIDI pan CC messages to set the position of the tuba as desired.

Since it can be a hassle to have multiple ways to pan the instruments (MIDI pan, DAW pan fader, etc.), I usually set my DAW to convert a stereo feed of a mono instrument into a mono track, so that no matter where the MIDI pans the instrument, I always have complete control of the panning from the DAW fader. I prefer this method, but others may not.

Hope this helps.

[rbowser-]

Hi, Sylva

Lunker is absolutely right on about what you're experiencing with the pan.

"...just weakens or amplifies the sound..." That's exactly what happens when you leave a mono instrument (and most Garritan instruments are mono) at its default panning in Kontakt, and then try to pan the stereo track in your sequencer. Lunker's solution works fine, to make the tracks in his Daw mono so he can control the pan.

DPDAN has a straight forward approach, changing all pans in KP2 to center, then using mono tracks in his sequencer, panning the instruments where he wants. Working in mono avoids this non-panning effect you're getting, with the sound just getting weaker or stronger as you move the pan pot.

Randy

[sylva]

Thank you both!!

You're making perfect sense and I have no idea why I didn't think of this myself, since I prefer mono instruments for their panning versatility. In this way the stereo field and recording are made more transparent. Correct me if I am wrong, but would this mistake be common to a lot of beginners? And no, I just was trying to pan from inside Kontakt Player, with the particular Garritan instrument's pan fader :wow:

Much obliged, Sylva

[rbowser-]

"...would this mistake be common to a lot of beginners..."

Yep. Glad you got yer Pan groove on now, Sylva. Happy music making.

Randy

[sylva]

Thank you Randy.

Great forum as usual with civil language, great knowledge and help, and understanding that everyone is a beginner at some time.

Sylva.

[sylva]

Well...

It didn't work.

I reset all the stereo cursors of the instruments in Kontakt Player back to zero position, and then tried to set the stereo field of each track on their track inspector in Sonar. But the cursors won't do anything, and just as in Kontakt Player before, they just faded the volume of the particular track.

I tried to find some parameter in the track properties to reset to mono but haven't found any such parameter. Is there such thing? When I set up an instrument in a track' effects field, usually a window pops up with all kinds of parameters among which there is a mono/stereo setting. As I already mentioned, I can't seem to find this setting in the tracks' properties' table. I'd hate to tear down the tracks. There is an enormous amount of work sunk in them already. However, the lack of clear positioning of each instrument in the stereo field subtracts from the acoustic/orchestral effect of the piece quite a bit, even though one may get a fairly good idea about what the piece wants to say musically.

Any opinion?

Thanks again, Sylva.

[rbowser-]

You're talking about the button in the audio control strips that make a track either Mono or Stereo. I've done a screen shot for you:

http://rbowser.tripod.com/stereo-button.jpg

This is in the Track View with the Track Inspector on. Whatever track you've currently selected has its channel strip displayed on the left. Or you can see all the channel strips at once in the Console view. Make sure you have the Inspector set to show All.

I've circled the button which by default is at Stereo. Push that and it changes to Mono. The picture will change to show just half of the image it shows to mean Stereo. Once you have the track working as a Mono channel, you'll have full panning available for your instruments.

Be sure you're doing the panning with Audio tracks, not MIDI.

Randy

[sylva]

Thank you, Randy!

Trouble is, I have mostly MIDI tracks and only one audio per instrument group. This is why I couldn't do it. I was looking for the Stereo button but did not find it. Thought that there might be some parameter in the track view which could be set. Now it looks as though each midi instrument will have to be accompanied by its own audio track. I did this in other setups, but in the present one, fearing that the processor won't be able to handle so many tracks, I worked mainly with MIDI tracks. What I don't understand thought is why I could set the stereo field for each MIDI instrument in Kontact Player for other compositions where I also had only MIDI tracks, but not in this one.

Sylva:confused:

[lunker]

Hi Sylva,

There are two main ways of panning the instrument: (1) doing what Randy has suggested; and (2) using MIDI CC#10 to pan the MIDI data.

For total control over each instrument, I recommend option #1, but with option #2 you can still pan the instrument when you only have a single audio output.


What I don't understand thought is why I could set the stereo field for each MIDI instrument in Kontact Player for other compositions where I also had only MIDI tracks, but not in this one.

Are you using the pan slider in Kontakt Player to set the MIDI pan for the instrument, and it is not having any effect? If that is the case, check and see if it is getting reset when you play the music. If that is the case, there is CC#10 in the MIDI file which is overriding your manual setting. Either remove that data from the MIDI file, or just edit it to use the panning location you want.

[rbowser-]

"...Now it looks as though each midi instrument will have to be accompanied by its own audio track..."

Yes, Sylva, you do need to do that. Then instruments of a family can be grouped into a Bus if you want. But when you load up KP2 into your sequencer, you want to have companion audio tracks for each instrument. I think you'll be able to drive more tracks than you imagine.

In my work flow, I can't ever have all the MIDI tracks playing in real time that I want. It sounds like a hassle, but I've long since adapted to the practice of bouncing tracks down to free up CPU power so I can keep going adding more instruments.

Randy

[sylva]

Thank you both very much.

Yeah, I'll have to do the work. I'll try both methods, just as an exercise. Is it enough to insert the audio tracks or each track will have to be recorded again along with its own audio track. Or, can new MIDI tracks be inserted and the content of the old be copied when an audio track is present? Problem is I need time and that I don't have much, so I am looking for time savers. The piece is finished and tends to be complicated at times. Correct panning would enhance it substantially, as the band tuttis tend to come from the same direction right now.

Thanks for the great advice, Sylva.

PS: Randy, some day, money permitted, I'll build an octo XEON machine. Right now I only have an Athlon X2 5600. Not bad, but I don't think it'll heck really big things.

[rbowser-]

Is it enough to insert the audio tracks or each track will have to be recorded again along with its own audio track. Or, can new MIDI tracks be inserted and the content of the old be copied when an audio track is present?
Your second idea is more cumbersome than it needs to be. Your more on track with your first idea. Insert audio tracks and have them all pointed to the corresponding channels in KP2. Then do Fast Bounce with those audio tracks coupled to your MIDI tracks. It could take you just a few minutes and you'd be in business.

In the future, when you add an instance of KP2 into a project, be sure to ask for all audio outputs - then all of that is already set up for you.

Randy

[sylva]

Again, thank you very much, Randy. I'll get to work in earnest. Can't wait to hear the band in stereo. Then only the real differences between what I wanted and what it really sounds like will transpire. Right now, in spite of the inadequate stereo field distribution of instruments, I think the piece sounds pretty realistic, or at least, nearly so. It's my first piece that sounds a bit better, so progress has been made. One day I'll upload it and will put it up for your scrutiny.

Yours, Sylva.

[sylva]

[Your second idea is more cumbersome than it needs to be. Your more on track with your first idea. Insert audio tracks and have them all pointed to the corresponding channels in KP2. Then do Fast Bounce with those audio tracks coupled to your MIDI tracks. It could take you just a few minutes and you'd be in business.

In the future, when you add an instance of KP2 into a project, be sure to ask for all audio outputs - then all of that is already set up for you.

Randy [/QUOTE]

Randy,

Is it possible that these operations can only be done only in full Sonar rather than in Home Studio 6 XL? I am looking to point the Audio tracks to the proper channel, but I can't find my way to it. I looked up both track property sheets (the one that pops up when right clicking) and the one in the Tracks pulldown from the general menu bar. I don't see how one can point Audio tracks to MIDI channels. I managed to do it with the first track, but that's the default track that has Kontakt Player added as an effect. And then asking for ALL AUDIO OUTPUTS, where? I looked up Kontakt Player's Option menu but found nothing like it. In fact, I looked up every menu in the Player and found nothing of that sort. What do I seem to be completely missing? I also have Garrigus' Sonar 6 Power which is my Bible and found nothing. I know that what you're talking about may be the result of many years of experience, or I am really a totally incompetent beginner (probably this latter is the case).

:confused: Sylva :confused:

[rbowser-]

Hi, Sylva - Yes, I know for sure it's the same in Home Studio 6. That's the version of Sonar I used up until earlier this year when I went to Studio.

I'll return with a screenshot, it'll be the easiest way to show you.

Randy

[rbowser-]

Hi, Sylva - Sorry you're not up to speed yet, but I'm here to unravel the mysteries. I come bearing screenshots.

Let's work our way through your post:


...Is it possible that these operations can only be done only in full Sonar rather than in Home Studio 6 XL?...

I assure you it's the same in HM6. Now, I was hoping to do screenshots in HS6, but forgot that I have it uninstalled. BUT I was very surprised when I got Sonar Studio Edition to see that the main tracks view screen looks almost the same. These details I'll go through are the same.


...I don't see how one can point Audio tracks to MIDI channels...

It's easiest to have them automatically inserted when you insert a soft synth--but first things first.

If you find yourself needing more audio tracks to be paired with your MIDI tracks, first you insert an audio track as usual. Then go to the head of the track and ask to see ALL - you want to see all the ins and outs and everything else that can be associated with that track.

The first window is where you choose what that track's input will be. Click that and you'll have all possible options.

You're making a mistake to think you're pointing this audio track to MIDI - you're connecting it to an AUDIO channel in KP2.

Look at this screen shot. I've clicked the input assign button--first I have my choices. Then I've clicked Kontakt--and that's expanded into all the choices inside KP2. The list is so long because the mono and stereo channels are listed. It's easy enough to see what the 16 different stereo channels are. Choose one:

http://rbowser.tripod.com/sonar-track-assign.jpg

Now after I've made the selection, that Audio track will look different - it will have the icon of an audio track hooked up to a soft synth. But all audio tracks are created equal--there's nothing special or different about audio tracks which are connected to the audio tracks of a soft synth like KP2.


...And then asking for ALL AUDIO OUTPUTS, where?...

You referred to KP2 being an "effect"---I think you may have been inserting KP2 in an effects bin. Don't do that.

Ask to insert a soft synth--click that from the main menu and your whole list of all available soft synths will come up. Click Kontakt Player and this screen will come up:

http://rbowser.tripod.com/sonar-all-outs.jpg

It's easy - You want ALL Synth Audio Outputs. Check that option and say OK. Now KP2 will pop up along with 16 audio tracks which are already completely set up for you, hooked up to KP2 so you don't have to do this thing of inserting audio tracks and directing them properly by hand.

KP2 will be in your Synth Rack. Under Views, ask to see that.

Split your screen so that lower right quadrant is tabbed and you can bounce easily back and forth between Piano Roll, Synth Rack, Tempo and Staff. The main Track View stays available at all times above that quadrant. - That's what I've found to be a very efficient way to get around quickly in Sonar - and that works just the same in HS6. It DOESN't work that way in HS7, by the way--when you upgrade, I highly recommend you skip HS7 and go to Sonar Studio or Producer.

I can tell from your new post that you haven't been setting up your projects correctly in HS - Hope the text and screen shots straightened it out for you.

Randy

[sylva]

Well,

It worked! Funny thing is that your recommendations were the exact configurations and actions I've been taking before seeing somewhere the effects usage of synths. Then I forgot about the correct usage and ended up where I ended up. Surely, everything was set up incorrectly. I was looking for the "Insert Soft Synth Options" window which used to pop up whenever inserting a Synth, to absolutely no avail. It does not pop up when you insert a synth into the effects bin of an audio track. And you cannot use the synth as an input into your audio track either, or at least, I haven't found a way to do it, although instinctively was looking for that and trying very hard.

And, by the way Sonar HS7: I did not upgrade not only because of what you observed in your last writing, but also because Cakewalk didn't keep their word about ironing out the problems in Sonar HS 6's 64 bit version. They promised to rectify them in a "future version" (you can read about this and the promise in the Readme file). So I am thinking about switching to Cubase, even though I much like SHS 6 XL, a very strong product. I may still get Sonar Studio IFF they have a decent 64 bit version. I am sure that two versions from now Cakewalk will come out with Home Studio with a big marketing slogan concerning their advanced 64 bit features, which they should have already introduced in version, 7 as promised.

Anyway, correcting the project will take some time, but I am already working on it.

Many thanks, Sylva:wow:

[rbowser-]

Good deal, Sylva - Thanks for letting me know you're up and running again.

Regarding Home Studio 7 - I have it, but never used it. I'd been using HS 4 XL, then 6 XL, and then there was this special offer at one time which made it a really good deal to upgrade to HS7 and on to Sonar 8 Studio all in one step.

But I looked at HS7, and I couldn't believe how overly simplified it looked. It's as if they stepped Back from HS6, maybe in response to users saying things were too complicated. I couldn't stand it--I poked at it, discovered that almost everything you want to use is hidden and you have to find it--AND you don't have tabbed views available. You Must jump back and forth between full screens of each view, which is a true pain in the backside for someone accustomed to have multiple views open at the same time via tabs.

Maybe I didn't play with it long enough, but HS7 looked like a dud to me.

Randy

[sylva]

True enough.

I did not upgrade, (I am always suspicious to a certain extent. Take IE7. They made the tool bars modal (non-movable) so one cannot put them in series. In this way the bars occupy about 1/8th of my 22" display. I want as much usable real estate as the display will allow. Many other things I don't like, but we're not discussing IE7 here.) in stead, I looked at specifications. No 64 bit version included in the DVDs. They took away Session Drummer, under some lame argument. Too complicated? Get yourself a book and work it out ladies and gentlemen. I don't want a watered down package. If such thing is wanted, several can be found at Best Buy three times cheaper. There were other things I didn't like about SHS 7, which I don't recall off the top of my head.

All of this I wrote about on the Cakewalk Forum. Needless to say, a marketing guy answered with some cool politeness, invoking lame arguments as to why they made the package more "accessible". At the price of SHS 6, of course. To me it meant that they raised the price, because the package contents were reduced. This is why I decided to switch to Cubase, provided their Studio package (the one equivalent to Sonar Studio, not Home Studio) also exhibits a 64 bit version. I know, I know, most of the samples out there still were recorded at 16-24 bit depth, but I want to take advantage of the 8Gigs RAM that I installed in my computer 2 years ago plus the fact that I am going to install Win7 Pro 64 at the end of this month (Newegg preordered) in dual boot with XP (because, as I said, HSH 6 XL 64 doesn't run correctly on 64 bit operating systems).

Anyway, my 2 cents and thanks again for the great help.

Sylva:)

[rbowser-]

Thanks for the new post, Sylva - Interesting that the Cakewalk guy at least admitted that HS7 had been simplified. That was certainly my impression. HS6 is basically like the full Sonar, just with a few less features.

I can see you're concerned about 64 bit - It doesn't phase me at all yet. I have a 64 bit new computer, but 90 % or more of what I have and use isn't 64 bit--so--It doesn't matter to me. Performance is fine, recordings are fine--that's all I care about. - Cubase - OK, obviously it has its fans---but made me run out of the room screaming. I find Sonar much more logical, intuitive, easy to use - the list goes on.

Randy

[sylva]

Yeah, Sonar is a very good package, as I said in my last post. This is why I am inclined to upgrade to Studio 8. I am not adamant about 64 bits since, as you said, most of the programs are 32 bit and sampling still happens at 24.

Anyway, back to panning. When I click Input on a track header, I get lots of Kontakt Player channel choices, but not the ones that you show in your screen shot. I get Channel 1 and 2 with their 2 mono and 1 stereo options, then the 6 channels of 5.1 surround with their 2 mono and 1 stereo choice and then 14 unassigned channels. No matter what I do, I get these.

Then, in Kontact Player I go to Outputs and get the channels: st1, st2, 5.1 and the four auxiliary. I don't use the 5.1 output at all, so I add another 14 outputs corresponding to the 14 unassigned channels in the paragraph above. I then configure Kontakt Player's outputs clicking the Conf. button at the bottom of each output. There I get the same choices: st1, st2, etc. Each channel is configured with 2 plugins. However, if I configure each next channel with 2 plugins, I run out of them after another 7 (2 plugins times 7 = 14, the number of unassigned channels). Problem is, the Player has no manual, only a brief paragraph in Garritan's manuals, without any visual examples. I dabble and experiment and obtain panning in the audio channels on Sonar's display, well sort of. The stereo field is narrow, I would say, it's about 120 degrees at most, in stead of close to 180 as it should be, and as it indeed is on the first channel.

Sorry for bugging you, I like doing things with my own powers, but this thing with panning and channeling between Kontakt and Sonar so far fails me almost completely.

~| Sylva.

[rbowser-]

Oh my - Sylva, please re-post your new question(s) in the Support and Technical Forum. Gary has been trying to keep tech help threads in their proper Forums - we've been pushing the envelope with this thread.

Post there, I'll answer more when I can, and other people will have a chance to see your thread and help also.

Thanks.

Randy