Synth Sounds? [Archive] - Northern Sound Source

nicholash

09-27-2001, 01:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Z6:
Can anyone recommend a decent library for synthesized sounds? I just want a few nice pads and leads (more kind of \'laid back\' sounds would be best - a la Enigma, but I\'m open to any suggestions).

Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to answer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Z6,

When it comes to synth sounds, I usually extensively sample the \'best\' sounds from my synths before selling them. I have found this approach to be far better than using the few sample CDs/CD-ROMs of synth sounds that I have. Compared with sampling acoustic instruments, I find sampling synths much easier and quicker.

The are some synths, however, that don\'t seem to sample well; perhaps it\'s a bit like some people aren\'t photogenic?!

Nicholas

David Abraham

09-27-2001, 01:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Z6:
Can anyone recommend a decent library for synthesized sounds? I just want a few nice pads and leads (more kind of \'laid back\' sounds would be best - a la Enigma, but I\'m open to any suggestions).

Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to answer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

some pretty good pads can be found at ILIO \"Digital Boy Modern Synths\" http://www.ilio.com (\"http://www.ilio.com\")

I used these pads on some demos for a friend of mine
http://mp3.com/samuell (\"http://mp3.com/samuell\") (\"Papa\" and \"Love Sweet Love\")

-david abraham

PatS

09-27-2001, 01:45 PM

Can anyone recommend some decent sci-fi samples? For fun, I\'m getting ready to score a \"War of the Worlds\"-style radio show for a friend, but I don\'t have any of those retro sci-fi sounds. I have a JV-1080, but I don\'t have time to program it, and I\'d prefer to trigger the sounds from GigaStudio.

Thanks!

Pat

Munsie

09-27-2001, 01:58 PM

\"I usually extensively sample the \'best\' sounds from my synths before selling them.\"

PLEASE or PLEASE someone confirm this is legal!! If it is, I\'ve got a new business to start up!

nicholash

09-27-2001, 02:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Munsie:
\"I usually extensively sample the \'best\' sounds from my synths before selling them.\"

PLEASE or PLEASE someone confirm this is legal!! If it is, I\'ve got a new business to start up!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why shouldn\'t it be legal? I programmed the synths myself. Is sampling a Steinway piano, a Fender Rhodes electric piano, a Hammond B3, a Fender Strat guitar, a Vincent Bach trumpet, etc... illegal? I expect not! Did Bigga Giggas ask for permission to sample the synths/instruments on their Memory Moog, JX-3P, ARP Solina, DX REX, Worra\'s Prophet, Boris Hohner D6, and Sune\'s L100 products?

Nicholas

Jeff Hurchalla

09-27-2001, 03:36 PM

I expect that sampling may be a grey area legally, and that for the most part the creators of musical instruments have ignored it - a lawsuit would be way too much bother since the industy is small and the sampled instruments are specialized purpose, certainly they can\'t replace the originals.

But imagine that someone perfects the piano action for a keyboard controller - not that far fetched I think. Then imagine someone automates the physical process of recording piano note samples, and proceeds to record a perfectly tuned and voiced Steinway in 64 layers. Imagine that GigaStudio version 5.0 allows 128 layers and a 100 GB file size. Further, picture that you can use a plugin that reproduces the piano overtones that are inherently missing from a sampled instrument. Perhaps the piano sample maker also sells 3 continuous controller pedals for sustain, soft, sostenuto, and has in the sampled instrument the proper samples/physical modelling to reproduce the effects. Maybe the original designers at Steinway had to make a slight sacrifice to a small range of the piano in order to achieve an amazing overall tone - perhaps it could be easy to achieve the impossible balance they sought by processing the samples in this range.

Granted I can\'t picture any way to get the same distribution and unaffected sound from a few stategically placed speakers as from a huge piano, but that\'s really the only insurmountable drawback I see. On the plus side, most people are aware that piano samples can be played back via headphones, or at low volume through speakers.

In any event, such a sampled piano isn\'t really an impossibility. The interesting thing is that I think it could be done today if there was a dedicated crew and enough money in it to go to all the work. In a few years pieces will probably just fall into place for unrelated reasons, and make it comparitively easy to do. So will Steinway mind that there is a viable alternative (perhaps in some ways even an improvement) for their finest concert grand, primarily created just by sampling (stealing?) their work? It\'s not a problem yet, but I can picture that some very good work in the future could end up with legal problems. I think there would be solutions to such problems, but I don\'t think manufacturers will want to remain hands-off forever.

nicholash

09-27-2001, 03:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jeff Hurchalla:
I expect that sampling may be a grey area legally, and that for the most part the creators of musical instruments have ignored it - a lawsuit would be way too much bother since the industy is small and the sampled instruments are specialized purpose, certainly they can\'t replace the originals.

But imagine that someone perfects the piano action for a keyboard controller - not that far fetched I think. Then imagine someone automates the physical process of recording piano note samples, and proceeds to record a perfectly tuned and voiced Steinway in 64 layers. Imagine that GigaStudio version 5.0 allows 128 layers and a 100 GB file size. Further, picture that you can use a plugin that reproduces the piano overtones that are inherently missing from a sampled instrument. Perhaps the piano sample maker also sells 3 continuous controller pedals for sustain, soft, sostenuto, and has in the sampled instrument the proper samples/physical modelling to reproduce the effects. Maybe the original designers at Steinway had to make a slight sacrifice to a small range of the piano in order to achieve an amazing overall tone - perhaps it could be easy to achieve the impossible balance they sought by processing the samples in this range.

Granted I can\'t picture any way to get the same distribution and unaffected sound from a few stategically placed speakers as from a huge piano, but that\'s really the only insurmountable drawback I see. On the plus side, most people are aware that piano samples can be played back via headphones, or at low volume through speakers.

In any event, such a sampled piano isn\'t really an impossibility. The interesting thing is that I think it could be done today if there was a dedicated crew and enough money in it to go to all the work. In a few years pieces will probably just fall into place for unrelated reasons, and make it comparitively easy to do. So will Steinway mind that there is a viable alternative (perhaps in some ways even an improvement) for their finest concert grand, primarily created just by sampling (stealing?) their work? It\'s not a problem yet, but I can picture that some very good work in the future could end up with legal problems. I think there would be solutions to such problems, but I don\'t think manufacturers will want to remain hands-off forever.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Jeff,

So are you effectively accusing most professional developers of sampled pianos of stealing?

Nicholas

09-27-2001, 04:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by nicholash:
Hi Jeff,

So are you effectively accusing most professional developers of sampled pianos of stealing?

Nicholas

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jeff makes a very cogent point. \'Perfect\' Pianos (or, as Jeff points out, even improved instruments) are just around the corner. There is no doubt in my mind that that\'s what we\'re doing.

But the piano is very mechanical. Anyone can \'play\' the piano for a sampling session (more or less). But take Nick\'s recent post. He\'s dancing around, jumping for joy. He\'s caught someone \'stealing\' his work.

For my money his \'Rare Instruments\' is the best library I\'ve ever heard.

But he\'s not only stolen the \'sounds\' he\'s stolen the players (stealing souls?). Do these guys really know what they\'re doing when they plonk themselves down for a session? Will they make the connection when the work dries up in a couple of years when they stop getting calls?

There are a lot of real moral issues here. The whole \'Giga\' paradigm has put a lot of livelihoods in real peril. Sure, a real Bagpipe player might be better than the samples (but maybe not), but who can be arsed when you can pop in a CD?

I\'m glad that Nick has found a way to protect his work, but does a few days sampling followed by a few weeks programming deserve this kind of protection? What about thirty years of practise? I believe that the people who are sampled should (no, must!) be given royalties on every single CD sold.

It would be nice to see some of the developers here get involved in appropriate re-embursement before they go singing and dancing all over the place when they catch a \'pirate\'. I\'m allowed to use Nick\'s work because I paid for it, but I\'d feel a whole lot better if I knew that some of it was going to the person who actually played the instrument.

It seems analogous to the British Empire raping countries for their natural wealth because those countries don\'t know that certain commodities even have value (and who can turn down a paying session?).

Anyway please guys (developers) get your hands into your pockets before you start dancing, because you\'re dancing on the grave of raw musical currency (and it makes me barf, to boot).

But back to the point: Any good synth sounds out there? (thanks for the posts so far - especially the demos - very nice indeed.)

nicholash

09-27-2001, 04:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Z6:
Jeff makes a very cogent point. \'Perfect\' Pianos (or, as Jeff points out, even improved instruments) are just around the corner. There is no doubt in my mind that that\'s what we\'re doing.

But the piano is very mechanical. Anyone can \'play\' the piano for a sampling session (more or less). But take Nick\'s recent post. He\'s dancing around, jumping for joy. He\'s caught someone \'stealing\' his work.

For my money his \'Rare Instruments\' is the best library I\'ve ever heard.

But he\'s not only stolen the \'sounds\' he\'s stolen the players (stealing souls?). Do these guys really know what they\'re doing when they plonk themselves down for a session? Will they make the connection when the work dries up in a couple of years when they stop getting calls?

There are a lot of real moral issues here. The whole \'Giga\' paradigm has put a lot of livelihoods in real peril. Sure, a real Bagpipe player might be better than the samples (but maybe not), but who can be arsed when you can pop in a CD?

I\'m glad that Nick has found a way to protect his work, but does a few days sampling followed by a few weeks programming deserve this kind of protection? What about thirty years of practise? I believe that the people who are sampled should (no, must!) be given royalties on every single CD sold.

It would be nice to see some of the developers here get involved in appropriate re-embursement before they go singing and dancing all over the place when they catch a \'pirate\'. I\'m allowed to use Nick\'s work because I paid for it, but I\'d feel a whole lot better if I knew that some of it was going to the person who actually played the instrument.

It seems analogous to the British Empire raping countries for their natural wealth because those countries don\'t know that certain commodities even have value (and who can turn down a paying session?).

Anyway please guys (developers) get your hands into your pockets before you start dancing, because you\'re dancing on the grave of raw musical currency (and it makes me barf, to boot).

But back to the point: Any good synth sounds out there? (thanks for the posts so far - especially the demos - very nice indeed.)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very interesting post Z6!

Maybe Nick Phoenix will say a few words on the subject. (I\'m sure he reads these threads).

Nicholas

Jeff Hurchalla

09-27-2001, 04:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by nicholash:
Hi Jeff,

So are you effectively accusing most professional developers of sampled pianos of stealing?

Nicholas

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, no, certainly not. I\'m not accusing anyone of anything http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif My intention was to suggest some thoughts and discussion, and accusations to anyone creating samples coudn\'t have been further from my mind. Truth be told, I have considered being among those sample developers who I greatly respect by doing a sampled piano somewhat along the lines of what I described, though with 16 or 32 layers (there are ways around the layer limit in GS, though this is beside the point). There\'s a lot of reasons I\'m not doing it for now at least, I guess the main one is that from what I understand the piano samples are already tough to make money in, and this as you can imagine would require an immense amount of work.

When I used the word \"stealing\" it was with question mark, so as to suggest that it\'s not unlikely that instrument manufacturers could at some point view sampling their instruments as a form of theft. Perhaps they already do view it that way. Whether you agree or not with the legality of using sampled phrases in pop songs from older songs, these sampled phrases have already had their legal problems for the people that used them. It\'s not exactly the same thing with sampled instruments, but there are enough similarities to make me wonder. I hope noone I know will face any legal issues, and til now I hadn\'t even considered it as something worth thinking about. It seems what I talked about would play out in the future, not now. So there\'s no confusion, the sample developers are doing exciting work to me, and I enjoy what they create (not steal http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif ). But I should admit that it crossed my mind if I were to create a truly extraordinary piano (don\'t expect it from me btw!) the particular piano maker I wanted to sample could be very unhappy with me. For this piano there are reasons it might be even worse than for a normal acoustic piano.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Hurchalla (edited 09-27-2001).]

nicholash

09-27-2001, 06:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jeff Hurchalla:
No, no, certainly not. I\'m not accusing anyone of anything http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif My intention was to suggest some thoughts and discussion, and accusations to anyone creating samples coudn\'t have been further from my mind. Truth be told, I have considered being among those sample developers who I greatly respect by doing a sampled piano somewhat along the lines of what I described, though with 16 or 32 layers (there are ways around the layer limit in GS, though this is beside the point). There\'s a lot of reasons I\'m not doing it for now at least, I guess the main one is that from what I understand the piano samples are already tough to make money in, and this as you can imagine would require an immense amount of work.

When I used the word \"stealing\" it was with question mark, so as to suggest that it\'s not unlikely that instrument manufacturers could at some point view sampling their instruments as a form of theft. Perhaps they already do view it that way. Whether you agree or not with the legality of using sampled phrases in pop songs from older songs, these sampled phrases have already had their legal problems for the people that used them. It\'s not exactly the same thing with sampled instruments, but there are enough similarities to make me wonder. I hope noone I know will face any legal issues, and til now I hadn\'t even considered it as something worth thinking about. It seems what I talked about would play out in the future, not now. So there\'s no confusion, the sample developers are doing exciting work to me, and I enjoy what they create (not steal http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif ). But I should admit that it crossed my mind if I were to create a truly extraordinary piano (don\'t expect it from me btw!) the particular piano maker I wanted to sample could be very unhappy with me. For this piano there are reasons it might be even worse than for a normal acoustic piano.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Hurchalla (edited 09-27-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Jeff,

Sorry if my question seemed a bit blunt; I was only trying to get some interesting discussion going! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Best regards
Nicholas

Munsie

09-27-2001, 06:28 PM

\"Is sampling a Steinway piano, a Fender Rhodes electric piano, a Hammond B3, a Fender Strat guitar, a Vincent Bach trumpet, etc... illegal? I expect not! Did Bigga Giggas ask for permission to sample the synths/instruments on their Memory Moog, JX-3P, ARP Solina, DX REX, Worra\'s Prophet, Boris Hohner D6, and Sune\'s L100 products?\"

Wow, I ALWAYS assumed you had to get permission or license the sounds before you created sample libraries of actual hardware instruments. This is good news! I could whip out a cd of synth sounds and percussion in no time at all. Cool...

KingIdiot

09-28-2001, 12:52 PM

If you\'re goign to bring up smething like this and put blame on the Sample CD producers for the players losing work...

You should also point out That these people, most likely, knew that they were being put on a sample CD..so some of it is their own fault AND they could be blamed for not only theirloss of work/clients, but also other musicians.

Paying royaltes to the players on the actual Sample Cds doesn\'t help all the other musicians losing work.

Putting blame on jsut the sample CD producers is being ignorant to the other events in the \"chain\".

then again we can get into ther old debate of \"who\'s being exploited\" and it jsut goes on and on, and then we realise the culprit is $$$ because its the goal driving the complaints and some of the ambition...and blah blah ..blah...blah....

In time *some* people will get tired of everything sounding the same since we all use the same samples.

Also the truth is peopl who really \"know\" a certain style of music know that most of it (live instruments) cant be reproduced fully with samples BECAUSE of the \"soul\" mentioned above. Every musician interperates music differently and plays it differently. A MIDI sequencer/programmer can always have his \"soul\" in the music he/she produces, but its not the same as multiple souls coming together to make one piece.

Scarbee\'s bass is the most realistic sampled live instrument I\'ve heard....but it will never replace the numebr of bass players out there since they all play the instrument slightly differently....hat is part of music to me...people who appreciate that will always look to live players when they can.

In the end someone should be playing an instrument for the passion and not the money anyway http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

Tokyo Joe

09-28-2001, 05:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Scarbee\'s bass is the most realistic sampled live instrument I\'ve heard....but it will never replace the numebr of bass players out there<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You\'re right. And do you know why Scarbee\'s demo\'s sound SO fantastic? He\'s a bass player (i\'m guessing). He knows how to play the bass. I mean REALLY play the bass. My guess is that alot of people using his library won\'t be able to match the \"musicanship\" of his demos purely becuase they can\'t play the instrument to the standard of Scarbee, if at all.

[This message has been edited by Tokyo Joe (edited 09-28-2001).]

Jeff Hurchalla

09-28-2001, 05:49 PM

Nicolash- it\'s no problem at all, I just wanted to avoid being misunderstood.
King- I do agree with a lot of what you say, and when I thought briefly about my posting earlier I think I was getting carried away with possibilities. Even a tremendous piano sampling such as I described would be not quite the piano as the original, notably I think the physical modelling would not be quite up to the job. But I think there will come a point of \"good enough\" where most peope get fooled, and I\'m imagining a point way way beyond where we are with things like GigaPiano. As for most instruments, including violins, brass, wind, etc, I don\'t think there\'s a prayer that a real player and instrument could ever be replaced. The playing method is the problem - in theory, I can imagine a midi violin would be able to express most all the nuances of a violin, but I\'d guess it would be nearly as difficult as a real violin to play. Keyboard instruments may be another story..

Jeff Hurchalla

09-28-2001, 06:15 PM

Z6, I think the various players are probably safe for the foreseeable future. If the samples get good enough the musicians may use them live or in the studio instead of traditional instruments, though we\'re certainly not there yet. But the musicians will still be needed to play the samples musically. A studio jazz piano player may be able to play a keyboard with excellent piano samples and get excellent results, but I\'d still be a classical player getting lost trying to play jazz on the same keyboard. A brand new student to piano would make noise the same as always, though you could turn down the volume at least. The worst problem of all would be someone trying to get trumpet sounds using samples triggered from a keyboard. It\'s just not the tool to do studio work. Conceivably someone could invent a midi trumpet with great samples and modelling, but if it\'s going to truly be as versatile as the real thing, it\'s probably going to be just as difficult to play well as the real thing. I think we\'re all safe. My only concern might be with instrument builders - luthiers, piano makers, etc.

It\'s an interesting point to pay royalties to the musicians, yet I think it might be as a more complex alternative to the way things happen now. The musicians get paid a fee up front, and I imagine or at least hope they know they\'re involved in a sampling project. Royalties could assure them of getting a piece of big sales, but samples unfortunately don\'t sell in high numbers usually. Hourly rates are probably easier and there\'s a certain appeal to money up front http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Jeff Hurchalla (edited 09-28-2001).]

ursatz

09-28-2001, 06:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jeff Hurchalla:
...As for most instruments, including violins, brass, wind, etc, I don\'t think there\'s a prayer that a real player and instrument could ever be replaced. The playing method is the problem - in theory, I can imagine a midi violin would be able to express most all the nuances of a violin, but I\'d guess it would be nearly as difficult as a real violin to play. ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That\'s right - think of all the nuances a violinist controls directly and continuously - bow pressure, bow position, bow velocity, precise left-hand finger position and pressure (vibrato is just one aspect).... If you could control all that with a midi instrument, you\'d be playing something that\'s just as difficult to master as a real violin, and for the same reasons.

Plus there are all the factors that go into the violin\'s sound itself. My wife just bought a hand-crafted violin for lots o\' bucks. The guy who made it apprenticed with a Czech master violin maker, studied all the available information about how to manipulate the wood and what kind of varnish works best, developed some of his own theories, and built a fantastic-sounding instrument. It\'s *easy* to hear the difference between this violin and a run-of-the-mill instrument.

Nope, live musicians and instruments aren\'t going to be replaced.

Damon

09-28-2001, 06:45 PM

I agree Ursatz. It would seem to me like it also takes to long to create orchestral mockups as well.
I\'m working on an orchestral piece right now and I have only 14 seconds done. Already I have loaded up 18 tracks and it\'s taken me about 6 hours total just to do that so far. I edit and tweak along the way instead of doing it after the song is completed which might be one reason why it takes me so long, plus I\'m an extreme perfectionist when it comes to trying to make the music sound as realistic as possible with expression, velocity notes, etc.
Sometimes I wish I knew how to just write the music down from my head, but I don\'t read music therefore I create along the way.
I think I would have a nervous breakdown if I was asked to do an entire orchestral action score on samplers in 3 weeks! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/shocked.gif
I don\'t think real players will ever be replaced as well due to the time factor, but creating realistic orchestral mockups is sooo much fun http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif!
I found it interesting in Jeff Rona\'s book \"The Reel World\" where he states if you\'re going to do orchestral demos, hire real players. Well, unfortunately for me I don\'t have the money or orchestra to do that, but he says alot of the demos that have come his way and other people he knows have real musicians playing for the most part. Talk about competition!

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 09-28-2001).]

franz

09-29-2001, 09:02 AM

A little off topic but I have to share this:
Last night I saw a showing of the 1929 Fritz Lang silent movie \"Spione\" Spys accompanied by a 15 piece live orchestra at the Academy\'s Goldwyn Theatre. I have to say it was absolutley awesome and if anybody would start doing this for new films I would have a season ticket.

No synth or sampler can ever offer this experience.

I was completely blown away and I sat through a 2.5 hour movie without ever being able to take my eyes of the screen. This was a conductor interacting live with a great materpiece. WOW. I want more!!!

SCARBEE

10-01-2001, 06:37 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tokyo Joe:
And do you know why Scarbee\'s demo\'s sound SO fantastic? He\'s a bass player

That\'s true - but I have heard keyboard players make very cool stuff with my libraries too.

Apart from making free license free bass lines available as midi-files downloadable from www.scarbee.com (\"http://www.scarbee.com\") I am considering a new approach:

Regeistered users and power users (high profile) can send rough MIDI bass lines to me and I can \"modify\" them and send them back - discrete off course, no one lese will know these bass lines. This could be a service that would act as a tutorial too.

What do you think?

Scarbee

PS. THANKS for the kind words - it warms my heart!