Which Sequencer and Why?

[esteven1]

I don\'t know if this discussion has been brought up yet but I\'ll break the ice:

Between Logic, Cakewalk, and Cubase, which sequencer do you prefer and why? I\'m tryin gto make up my mind but would like input from others\' experiences

[Tokyo Joe]

My sequencer of choice is Cubase VST. Many moons ago, circa 1987 or so, I was using a program called Pro-24 by Steinberg on the Atari ST platform. In its day it was THE sequencer of choice, an industry standard, and so when I returned to making music a few years later I chose Pro-24\'s successor: Cubase VST for the PC.

And, although I\'ve been using Cubase for a while, there is always something new to learn. It has so many options that I think it would take a lifetime to explore every nuance of the program. For now I\'m happy using the features that I know really well. I mean... who uses \"Logical Edit\" anyway?

I\'ve heard good things about Logic although everyone\'s agreed that it has a steep learning curve.

As for Cakewalk/Sonar, I too would interested in hearing comments from users.

[This message has been edited by Tokyo Joe (edited 09-27-2001).]

[nicholash]

Hi,

I use Cubase VST because it is an industry standard and fairly intuitive. Since I have taken the time to get to know it fairly well, there is little incentive to change at the moment. Most of my musical friends also use Cubase, several still on the Atari platform. However, one of my friends uses Logic Audio Platinum on a Mac, and I have found it anything but intuitive when trying to help him with it. Maybe, if I had started using Logic before Cubase I would say the opposite?! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Nicholas

[David Abraham]

they are all pretty good. For my purposes I give the edge to SONAR for it\'s audio editing/automation implementation

-david abraham

[Munsie]

Hmm, I don\'t know many people who could actually compare the major 3 without owning them. Myself, my first choice was Cakewalk Pro Audio 9. It\'s just so easy to use and it works well. I\'ve never felt the need to try anything else. Sonar will be a good upgrade path down the road when the bugs are ironed out.

[esperlad]

I am looking for a different sequencer that will allow me to play music from my keyboard, and then save what I played as a MIDI file? It also needs to work with win2k. What should I use?

[David Abraham]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by esperlad:
I am looking for a different sequencer that will allow me to play music from my keyboard, and then save what I played as a MIDI file? It also needs to work with win2k. What should I use?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SONAR and Cubase have been pretty reliable for me on Win2k. However it sounds like you are new to computer based sequencing? what computer and MIDI hardware do you have?

-david abraham

[Sapkiller]

Hi
Its funny - Like TokyoJoe I started of with
Steinbergs Pro24 on my old Atari, but then
came along C-Lab with the Notator sequencer, and that was an incredible piece of software for its time. Now C-Lab ended up as Emagic - the creators of Logic !
So my preference is strongly towards Logic.

It really all comes down to what you\'re going to use it for and what type of person
you\'re are. For instance: If you\'re a classical trained person who prefer notation and working with scores - Go for Logic, its the most powerfull in this area - Cakewalk on the other hand sucks here.
If you\'re a person who likes to just get on with it and never gets around to reading manuals - Don\'t buy Logic. You\'ll never get
to use all the sofisticated stuff.
Logic is, I think, the most powerfull of them
all and thus also the more complex. But if
you invest time in Logic it will pay of.

So what are you going to use it for and
what type of person are you?

regards
Bjk

[pantonality]

Hey Sapkiller aka Bjk,

Bless you from another Logic user. You\'ve hit the nail on the head, those who appreciate standard notation will find Logic very powerful (I know I do). You may find the Logic Users Group on Yahoo Groups of interest. It has 6,300 members worldwide and is a very busy list, but the mass of expertise there makes it worthwhile. Here\'s a link.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/logic-users (\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/logic-users\")

I tried CuBase once (I was able to get a not for resale version for free), but after a bit decided to pony up $250 to upgrade Logic, for me it\'s that much better.

Steve

[Bruce A. Richardson]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Abraham Fenton:
they are all pretty good. For my purposes I give the edge to SONAR for it\'s audio editing/automation implementation
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with David 100%. For automating GigaStudio parameters, SONAR is quite advanced over Logic or Cubase. It is true that working from notation is not the ideal approach with SONAR. However, if you are a PLAYER, and you are using your sequencer to play, then edit, SONAR is very deep.

You can control ANY GigaStudio parameter with envelopes on MIDI tracks. Extremely powerful for subtle expression--and far advanced over Cakewalk\'s previous ProAudio 9.0.

I believe Cubase and Logic are both good products, and my preference above is strictly about controlling GigaStudio. There may be other factors contributing to a person\'s choice, such as MAC compatibility, file sharing, etc., familiarity--but for sheer control of GigaStudio\'s features, SONAR is probably the app to beat right now.

[Jamieh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>You can control ANY GigaStudio parameter with envelopes on MIDI tracks. Extremely powerful for subtle expression--and far advanced over Cakewalk\'s previous ProAudio 9.0.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you elaborate Bruce? I am using ProAudio 9.0 and I didn\'t see a reason to upgrade to Sonar. I am interested in hearing more about envelopes.

Currently I just use control messages (volume, mod, expression, etc.) on the midi tracks to control Gigastudio. How are envelopes different?

[esperlad]

David,
I have audiophile, just got it today, I am having problems with recording.

[David Abraham]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by esperlad:
David,
I have audiophile, just got it today, I am having problems with recording.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


ok describe what you are trying to do in detail. Record MIDI? record audio? What software are you using and what problems? It just won\'t work? pops and clicks?

-david abraham

[esperlad]

when I was using windows \'98, I only used Finale, Gigastudio, and Dman-PCI soundcard with Sound Forge.

Now I have win2k running, and I have the audiophile installed with the drivers. I tried recording some audio from a DVD into a WAV using sound forge, that did not work. I have started to make some other prgress with the card. When I get giga for win2k, I will see what happens with that.

[Scott Speed]

Aye carumba. You must have been the pride of your debate club. You\'re completely trashing one of the most used programs on the market based on the opinion of your guitar playing friend? It doesn\'t sound like you\'ve even tried it.
That\'s like saying \"Sorry, but all microwave ovens suck. My cousin\'s neighbor\'s daughter had a microwave oven for a year and never liked it because she couldn\'t make popcorn due to its unintuitive interface. She got a stove top oven and was making popcorn in two minutes. Stove top ovens blow all microwaves away.\" Sounds silly, doesn\'t it?
Sorry...it\'s a slow day and I couldn\'t resist.

Regards,
Scott

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oliver:
Digital Performer blows all sequencers away.

sorry but Cubase sucks and thats the best of the 3 you suggested.

IF you dont have a mac i\'ts worth 1,400 to get a sweet one.

I have a guitar player friend that got cubase
, Had it for a year and never liked it or understood it\'s unintuitive interface. He got performer and in 2 weeks he was making music!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Thomas_J]

I\'m gonna jump in here. For me the choice on the PC platform has always been the cakewalk products. I haven\'t tried Sonar yet but I hear it is quite buggy. I love cakewalk for its easy and intuitive interface. The audio part is very good too. I have used cubase but never quite got the hang of the interface. At work we use macs running Logic Audio. It is unquestionably a more professional product than Cakewalk, supported by hardware to a much larger extent. The interface isn\'t as intuitive as Cakewalk, and the learning curve is pretty steep. Once you get the grip on it, though, you\'ll probably never consider any alternatives. As irony would have it, I use cakewalk for orchestral music and Logic for pop music. Even though I\'m experienced with both programs, I don\'t feel that I could do things quite as fast in Logic as in Cakewalk. Gigastudio seems to favor Cakewalk too. This is simply a matter of taste. Ultimately I don\'t think you can make better music in Logic or Cubase than you can in Cakewalk. I like its ease of use and the whole simplicity of it. It doesn\'t exactly shine on the graphical design and it lacks a number of important features, like support for ASIO etc, but if you can live with those limitations it is certainly a good buy at the price. If you quantize your music a lot you will probably find the quantize function in Cakewalk a bit disturbing. It isn\'t nearly as good as in Logic. Cakewalk has a tendency of not understanding you, musically that is.

Anyway it really is a more or less relevant question, as I\'m sure most of you will agree on, the music does not improve by the use of a \"better\" sequencer. The four or five sequencers that have been mentioned are all great programs. Use whatever works for you and quit fighting about what is best and what is worst. I\'ve heard professional people say \"oh my god, you use Cakewalk? that\'s like a TOY compared to Logic\". I just smile and ignore them.

Thomas

[Oliver]

Stovetops are way better than Microwaves. Good point. Budwiser is consumed by the most people everyday in america, so I guess its the best beer. I rember when Vision was the most popular sequencer. (yuck) I should have not blasted Cubase though. It like most sequencers are great things indeed. If I said your BMW blew my lexus away thats not trashing lexus. Cubase rocks but Performer blows it away is what I ment.

[Haydn]

I use Cakewalk which I find works quite well with GigaStudio on the same PC. I probably have no more crashes than users using a dedicated PC for GigaStudio. Only have problems once memory starts getting over 80% filled in GigaStudio.

I have had more problems using Sonar with GigaStudio though. I use Sonar for recording projects that use a lot of audio tracks. I prefer the simpler interface of Cakewalk for doing orchestral work which is MIDI based.

[Oliver]

Digital Performer blows all sequencers away.

sorry but Cubase sucks and thats the best of the 3 you suggested.

IF you dont have a mac i\'ts worth 1,400 to get a sweet one.

I have a guitar player friend that got cubase
, Had it for a year and never liked it or understood it\'s unintuitive interface. He got performer and in 2 weeks he was making music!

[David Abraham]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:

That\'s my story and I\'m sticking with it, haha. Again, not to start a \"sequencer war,\" just to explain my own personal reasoning behind my endorsement.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

fantastic stuff...I haven\'t got much into the MIDI envelopes yet...but this is very motivating.

thanks
-david abraham

[MikeGraybill]

Bruce, thanks for all the input! I\'ve been eyeing Sonar for a while, but envelopes on top of midi tracks to control velocities, etc... If Cubase 6 is released with a function like this, I\'ll probably go back, but until then, well, I hear Cakewalk offers pretty nice student discounts. Could you tell me, what kind of bugs have you run into? Anything serious?
I\'m a student with only a limited number of musical credits to my name so far, but I\'ve got a film project that\'s on its way to me now, and am modifying my existing one comp setup to a two machine system and a million other things primarily for the stability and extra processing power. On a tight schedule, do you think it would be wise to switch asap to Sonar, or wait for the bugs to be worked out and stick with Cubase for now? Any advice would be welcome. Again, thanks for the input!

-Mike-

[Bruce A. Richardson]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jamieh:
Can you elaborate Bruce? I am using ProAudio 9.0 and I didn\'t see a reason to upgrade to Sonar. I am interested in hearing more about envelopes.

Currently I just use control messages (volume, mod, expression, etc.) on the midi tracks to control Gigastudio. How are envelopes different?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Jamieh (Thomas, too),

Functionally, the envelopes are not that different than PA9.0\'s CC support.

Ergonomically, they are quite different. Efficiency-wise, they are startlingly different.

The biggest benefit of SONAR is its reflection of Cakewalk\'s continuing design philosophy of bringing things forward in the UI and eliminating layers. For years, the design philosophy of sequencers has been modeled after software industry assumptions, that multiple layers are more intuitive than complex \"front ends.\"

However, musicians regularly learn \"complex front ends.\" It\'s what we do. We internalize and integrate thousands of complex patterns into our physical memories, which we call forward to bring music into being. Give a musician 88 keys, and he can intuitively and instantly combine them in all the colors of the rainbow. Layers tend to paralyze musicians when they create, and force them into brain-patterns which offend the muses.

For instance, in ProAudio 9.0, you must edit velocities in the Piano Roll or Event List views. In SONAR, you can actually create a Velocity Envelope right on the clip in Track View, and nondestructively adjust velocity. You don\'t have to dig into \"the details\" in order to bump your sample down to a lower velocity layer, just add a Velocity Envelope and start adjusting till the musical shape and timbre are right for the line. This leaves much more of your original performance \"intention\" intact, allowing you to shape the played events rather than draw new shapes. The difference is subtle but real. The line between creation and mixing gets blurred--a very good thing in my estimation.

For multi-sample libraries this is a very powerful feature, allowing you to shape lines extremely well. With Garritan Orchestral Strings, it is absolutely heavenly. Specific to GOS, for instance, you can add a MODULATION envelope, and use it to control the EXP instruments. This is incredibly powerful and fast, and allows you to nondestructively alter the internal shape of a single note\'s expression as easily as that of an entire phrase.

The power is having all this right on the surface, rather than buried in layers of the UI. You can keep a broader perspective, move around within your work faster.

To put it another way, SONAR allows you to mix the same way as Sonic Foundry\'s ACID and Vegas. Instead of the more \"engineer-like\" mixer and knob scenario, you can create an envelope to control any parameter. For people like us, who are detailing complex orchestral mixes, this allows much finer control. You can zoom in and shape the expression of a single note--RIGHT FROM THE MAIN TRACK VIEW. While some sequencing products allow this for Audio, no sequencer (Even Digital Performer) allows such complete envelope control in MIDI.

SONAR\'s design has been greatly influenced by GigaStudio users, and the results are fairly obvious once you\'ve used the two applications together.

This hopefully isn\'t going to be interpreted as a \"my sequencer rocks, yours sucks\" sort of post. I don\'t feel that way. I have been a Cubase owner and user for many years, and have worked in Logic and DP on many projects. It\'s no secret in Cakewalk-land that I promptly leave SONAR behind and open Vegas when I want to mix my audio tracks--I HATE the way Cakewalk manages audio data. I despise it. I campaign tirelessly for change, towards the Vegas/ProTools/etc. model which allows the user full control over the underlying files and data. That is very important to me.

But the question was about control of GigaStudio, and having used many products extensively, I can say with no qualms that SONAR is my product of choice for that purpose...many times over. I would never consider going backwards to PA 9.0, and I find Cubase very much \"internally\" oriented.

By the way, in terms of its \"bugginess,\" I would first say that it\'s not THAT buggy. Cubase 5.0 is far buggier, and it\'s already on its sixth revision. I am beginning to wonder if there will EVER be a Cubase 5.0 revision that doesn\'t break as many things as it fixes. This has always been a weak point for Steinberg, and continues to be. I hope they eventually get past it, but I suspect it is a result of dual-platform support and the additional programming overhead that entails (compared with the incoming $$ stream).

Cakewalk has an excellent overall record in terms of cleaning their code quickly and efficiently. SONAR 1.0 is one of the cleanest 1.0 releases I\'ve seen from any manufacturer, and I\'d expect it to be as clean as the virtually bug free PA 9.0x within weeks. To me, this is as important a consideration as any.

That\'s my story and I\'m sticking with it, haha. Again, not to start a \"sequencer war,\" just to explain my own personal reasoning behind my endorsement.

[Scott Speed]

Hi Michael,

Just my two cents...if you\'re on a deadline, definitely go with the program you know and save the sequencer experimenting for a project you have more time on.
You\'d most likely be spending a lot of crucial time just trying to figure out the basic layout with a new sequencer rather than actually composing and arranging, and I wouldn\'t recommend that to anyone on a tight schedule.

Regards,
Scott

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MichaelAngelo450:
Bruce, thanks for all the input! I\'ve been eyeing Sonar for a while, but envelopes on top of midi tracks to control velocities, etc... If Cubase 6 is released with a function like this, I\'ll probably go back, but until then, well, I hear Cakewalk offers pretty nice student discounts. Could you tell me, what kind of bugs have you run into? Anything serious?
I\'m a student with only a limited number of musical credits to my name so far, but I\'ve got a film project that\'s on its way to me now, and am modifying my existing one comp setup to a two machine system and a million other things primarily for the stability and extra processing power. On a tight schedule, do you think it would be wise to switch asap to Sonar, or wait for the bugs to be worked out and stick with Cubase for now? Any advice would be welcome. Again, thanks for the input!

-Mike-<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[SCARBEE]

If you work with Giga-libraries with extensive use of program-changes - like Garritan Strings and also my own Scarbee bass Libraries, you need to be able to insert these program-changes in an easy way.

Logic is brilliant with this: you can insert them in the matrix-editor (Key-roll)and have the overview of the notes at the same time.

Velocity colours are handy too as you can color-code ex. key-triggers to be dark-blue (velocity 0) This way you can easily spot the triggers from the actal notes.

Unfortunately the latest versions of Logic have the problems of \"not stopping right away\" - but it rolls a bit after you hit STOP.
This means that auditioning a program-change gets a littly tricky: you have to press stop a bit before! Or do as I: use version 4.6 (instead of 4.72)

[cc]

Bruce,

How is SONAR\'s envelopes different from using Hyperdraw in Logic inside the arrange window?

[esteven1]

GREAT question. Bruce these things that you describe in SONAR sounds very similar to what Logic Audio does with it\'s hyperdraw. Extremely well I might add. Can you comment on this or anyboady else. Hyperdraw does these things you mention. What am I missing here....

[esteven1]

As far as sequencer/notation package I\'d have to say Logic Audio hands down. I\'ve used all three. The king of notation of course is Finale but Logic give wonderful results it really amazes me.

[killerbobjr]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
SONAR\'s design has been greatly influenced by GigaStudio users, and the results are fairly obvious once you\'ve used the two applications together.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bruce, have you had any timing problems with Sonar and GS running at the same time? I was intending to upgrade to Sonar when it first came out, but their demo version I tried left a lot to be desired timing-wise compared with the rock-solid tightness of PA9.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
It\'s no secret in Cakewalk-land that I promptly leave SONAR behind and open Vegas when I want to mix my audio tracks--I HATE the way Cakewalk manages audio data. I despise it. I campaign tirelessly for change, towards the Vegas/ProTools/etc. model which allows the user full control over the underlying files and data. That is very important to me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could you expound on this further? I haven\'t used Vegas before and only have limited experience with Protools on the Mac, so I don\'t know what I\'m missing. What does Vegas/Protools make easier?

[paynterr]

Surely these big hitters in the sequencer market just pilfer their ideas from each other, so pretty much stay in line with each other? That\'s certainly what I would do as a developer on one of these packages... only hope Tascam do similar with Halion...
Having said that, I have cubase score... what is the best sequencer for score notation in professional opinion?

[Radu Lupu]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by esteven1:
As far as sequencer/notation package I\'d have to say Logic Audio hands down. I\'ve used all three. The king of notation of course is Finale but Logic give wonderful results it really amazes me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you explain a little more. What is in Logic that is not in Cubase or Sonar? Notation is very important for me, and I\'m thinking of replacing my Cubase with something better in this area...

[esteven1]

The first thing I would do is start playing a piano piece with various note values especially triplets and wath which package does the best job of notating what you played.

I was amazed at how well Logic excelled at this. I letterally could print out what I just played and someone could sight read it. with out any further editing. You can also add dynamics in with a quick click of the mouse. Everything is right there. Just try them all out and see which one does what you need.

[pantonality]

As a fellow Logic user who tried CuBase I\'d like to chime in here.

I\'m very notation oriented in my composing. I usually write on paper then put it in the computer. I love that I can keep a notation window and event list open next to each other and zip back and forth between them tweaking the track (this may very well be possible in other programs). What made CuBase simply unusable for me was that making changes in the event list was brutally slow. I seem to recall hearing that the reason was that it was saving each increment as an undo. In Logic I scroll to the value I want in a fraction of a second, in Cubase (4.7) that would take minutes. I certainly hope they\'ve changed that in Cubase 5, but I was back to Logic by then. I basically spent $250 to upgrade my old Logic rather than use a free (NFR) version of Cubase.

Steve