My MP3 Demo site is up.

[Thomas_J]

Those of you who asked for more of my work will be happy to hear that my new site has been uploaded. It features some recent work by me, including \"Swordfight\", and epic swashbuckling action cue, complete with loud brass and percussion writing. Hope you like it.
http://home.online.no/~finjaco/ (\"http://home.online.no/~finjaco/\")

Thomas

[OH]

>Hope you like it.<

Hi Thomas!

For an unknown reason my AOL-player just gives me a few seconds-intro of \'Swordfight\'. Any ideas?

regards


------------------
O.H.

[Thomas_J]

I will have to delay \"We Will Prevail\". I\'m adding some finishing touches. Meanwhile I have uploaded 2 new mp3s:

\"Something Out There\":

A quick sketch meant to musically illustrate a person looking up at the stars on a clear night.

\"Mysteries of the Mind\":

a 6:30\" long piece of film music in a concert arrangement. It is some sort of a medley of atmospheres and moods.


Happy listening,
Thomas

[Haydn]

Nice work - enjoyed all of the pieces. What are you using to create your MP3\'s. Your MP3\'s are cleaner at 160K that the ones on Dan Dean\'s site that are 256K. His always sound distorted to my ears and I have not been impressed with his brass because of this sound.

The reverb is a little to muddy for my taste but the rest of your production is excellent.

[astrt4]

It\'s really scary how good your stuff is.

[astrt4]

[edited]

[This message has been edited by astrt4 (edited 09-23-2001).]

[Thomas_J]

Thank you Haydn. I used a freeware program called FreeRIP MP3. The reverb is indeed a problem. It\'s a terrible Zoom 1202 unit.

Thank you, Astrt4?!

Thomas

[Synth2k]

Hey Thomas,

Glad to see that you were able to get your own site happening - it really looks great. Have you tried embedding your MP3\'s into Flash? That might be a way you can get around download/compatibility issues that pop up with different browsers and platforms. Specifically the AOL browser (grrr, AOL). :-)

Ryan.


------------------
Sonic Control
www..com (\"http://www..com\")
Giga Users Network at
www..com/gigasampler/ (\"http://www..com/gigasampler/\")

[Marc Floessel]

Try downloading it directly maybe:

http://home.online.no/~finjaco/Jazz2k%20-%20Swordfight.mp3 (\"http://home.online.no/~finjaco/Jazz2k%20-%20Swordfight.mp3\")

[astrt4]

Do you have a link for \"We will Prevail\" as well? I haven\'t been able to get that one.

[OH]

>[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marc Floessel:
[B]Try downloading it directly maybe:<

Unfortunately it doesn\'t work either. After 17 seconds all is over... nevertheless: thanks!




------------------
O.H.

[Thomas_J]

I\'m not sure about that O.H, may be the player you are using. Works here!
\"We will Prevail\" is coming up shortly, along with 3 other new compositions.

Thomas

[mschiff]

Thomas,

Really great work! Very professional sounding.

-- Martin http://www.mp3.com/starbirth (\"http://www.mp3.com/starbirth\")

[Dis]

Please make the files possible to \"Save as..\", I have the same problem as OH. Many people having RealPlayer installed won\'t be able to download the files but only to stream them (which causes stop playing after few seconds). Please make the links possible for right mouse clicking and saving as. Thanks

[Thomas_J]

I understand people are having trouble downloading the files. I\'ll have the page fixed. Here are the direct links to the most interesting music (you should be able to right click on these and choose \"save as..\":
http://home.online.no/~finjaco/Jazz2k%20-%20Swordfight.mp3 (\"http://home.online.no/~finjaco/Jazz2k%20-%20Swordfight.mp3\")
http://home.online.no/~finjaco/Jazz2k%20-%20This%20Is%20Goodbye.mp3 (\"http://home.online.no/~finjaco/Jazz2k%20-%20This%20Is%20Goodbye.mp3\")
http://finjaco.home.online.no/Jazz2k%20-%20Something%20Out%20There.mp3 (\"http://finjaco.home.online.no/Jazz2k%20-%20Something%20Out%20There.mp3\")
http://finjaco.home.online.no/Jazz2k%20-%20Mysteries%20of%20The%20Mind.mp3 (\"http://finjaco.home.online.no/Jazz2k%20-%20Mysteries%20of%20The%20Mind.mp3\")

Hope it works now,
Thomas

[Thomas_J]

I just added two more mp3s.
http://finjaco.home.online.no/Jazz2k%20-%20The%20Great%20Plains.mp3 (\"http://finjaco.home.online.no/Jazz2k%20-%20The%20Great%20Plains.mp3\") http://finjaco.home.online.no/Jazz2k%20-%20Medieval%20Battlefield.mp3 (\"http://finjaco.home.online.no/Jazz2k%20-%20Medieval%20Battlefield.mp3\")

Thomas

[RICARDO BOTTICELLI]

thomas nice music .i enjoyed a lot.
what a great music is- this is a goodbye i can see the credits rolling on the screem.
thanx to share with us.

[astrt4]

Remember us when you\'re famous!

[Z6]

Terrific stuff Thomas. Really, tremendous. Are you going to explain the music/techniques on your site at all? I\'m sure we\'d all be interested in hearing how you manipulated your libraries so superbly. It would also be nice to hear what inspired you to write the various pieces. (but you sound pretty busy)

I especially enjoyed Mysteries of the Mind. Get this stuff sent to some movie directors, or go drive some film students crazy. It deserves a wider audience. Good luck.

[donnie]

Thomas,

Excellent sounding stuff!! Can you post the midi file? I think it could really help everyone, including myself, see some things.

Thanks,

Donnie

[Neal Keane]

Extremely tasty stuff, Thomas. Your use of dynamics is top notch!

If you don\'t mind, what\'s the lowdown on the percussion you use in \"Mysteries of the Mind\" (how do you get that powerful bass drum sound?)

Also, I\'ll second the MIDI file request.
Thanks,
Neal

(PS Skip the Twentieth Century Music class!)

[Thomas_J]

Hey thanks to everyone for listening! I really appreciate the feedback, be it good or bad!
Most of the percussion I use is from advanced orchestra. The percussion in \"Mysteries of the Mind\" is from my custom library of sounds. The anvil in the various pieces is mine, fx. The snares in \"swordfight\" are ripped from ID4 (but don\'t tell anyone hehe). I might consider releasing snippets of midi-files from the various pieces to go with the mp3\'s on the site. Meanwhile you can just ask me if there\'s something that puzzles you, and I\'ll try my best to answer. Regarding the samples, they are mostly from the commercial libraries, but brass is almost exclusively from my personal library. I like my trumpets, especially in \"The Great Plains\" piece, where extensive use of fast triplets demanded a few days of me to get it right.

Again, thank you for listening,
Thomas

[Ewen]

This is the best orchestral simulation I have EVEEEER heard. I I heard this in a movie, I wouldn\'t believed it was sampled.

You are truly the \"sampled\" version of John Williams. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Ewen

[Gav]

Interesting decision to go to the trouble of adding ambient clicks and pops from players accidentally hitting music stands and coughing etc. Certainly adds to the realism.

Gav

[SCARBEE]

Hi Thomas,

I wish you would use my libraries one day...

Good work

Scarbee

[donnie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gav:
Interesting decision to go to the trouble of adding ambient clicks and pops from players accidentally hitting music stands and coughing etc. Certainly adds to the realism.

Gav<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gav,

Great point! I was wondering that also. Thats why I can\'t wait to see the midi file to see how he layered it all in.

Donnie

[Damon]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Z6:
in the real world nobody is going to give you a break on this type of stuff. They\'ll want to hear some of your more \'intimate\' material.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You bring up a good point Z6. Thomas\' music is quite amazing and he is a great orchestrator but the advice I\'ve read from soundtrack composers has always been to establish your \"own sound\".
I read numerous articles before from Hans Zimmer, Basil Poledouris, and others saying that directors hire you for what your type of sound contributes to a movie. If they want big bombastic action stuff, they\'ll hire John Williams or Jerry Goldsmith. If they want more \'intimate\' stuff, they hire Thomas Newmann or Alan Silvestri, etc. because they have their own type of sound. Unfortunately there is alot of competition and a WHOLE lot of demos that are nothing but bombastic action type stuff that are sent to agents all the time and these are even done with real orchestras playing! People spare no expense these days when it comes to demos (unfortunately a guy like myself can\'t afford an entire orchestra to play my demo songs, how do some of these people do???).
I know I\'ve gotten way off track with trying to find my own sound by buying orchestral libraries to make the best possible action or drama mockups, when in actuality I could have been sitting in my studio with a Roland XP-80 and tweaking out sounds to find my own sound. Then again I never really studied classical music or really even film music. I\'ve always played blues and jazz.
It makes me wonder if sitting in front of a computer 5 hours a night getting velocity notes correct and expression exactly right is wasting my time when I could be spending more intimate time writing the kind of music I play 6 nights a week at my gig which would be more jazzy, electronica type stuff.
I guess the medium would be to fuse together the jazz, electronica, and orchestral. Who knows? The skies the limit these days with technology.
I just thought you brought up a good point Z6 because I always remember reading in the Sundance Composers Lab submission and an actual letter from Basil Poledouris (He actually wrote me back on a demo I sent him believe it or not!) to not send anything that sounds like John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, or Hans Zimmer. If we want stuff like that, we hire those guys.
I think Thomas and Simons work is an exeption however because not only is their composition great, but their mixes as well. There are times where their demos will fool me and I listen to alot of real orchestral stuff.
I would love to hear some more original stuff from you Thomas whether its techno, jazz, polka music, whatever! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif
Like always, your orchestral mockups do sound incredible. I can\'t believe you\'re only 20 years old Thomas and you\'ve only been composing for 6 years! You really do have a shot at this business. You should really pursue it.
Good Luck with your future! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
Damon



[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 09-25-2001).]

[Maarten Spruijt]

That\'s a great post, Damon! Very true indeed.
Fortunately, I think every (starting) composer will automatically develop his/her own musical style/sound. It\'s a matter of musical experience, personal experience and time. ;-)

Maarten

[Thomas_J]

Again, thanks a lot for the very interesting feedback! To reveal the truth:

Everything is composed using samples, except the very short trumpet solo (played by me) in \"Mysteries of the Mind\". The \"hall ambience\" was an experiment I did. That\'s actually two 20 second long recordings of hall noise that I mix \"behind\" the sequence using an audio track in cakewalk.

I very much agree on what you are saying Z6 and Damon! I think I will develop a unique style with time. I\'m by no means fully matured when it comes to music, but I\'m experimenting all the time. I\'m sure you can agree that my compositions could have been even more \"standard\", but I do make a few experimental twists here and there, don\'t you think?

I keep discovering great and forgotten composers that inspire me in different ways. I think by the time I turn 30 or whatever, I\'ll have a much wider perspective on orchestral music. As for now...I just can\'t help it http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I love that grand epic sound, and I do this mostly for kicks! I like realizing my own ideas, and for that, the world of samples and Gigastudio is helping a great deal!

Z6, you requested \"techno\" songs. I\'d rather not. Hehe. If you are REALLY interested, you can email me and I can hook you up with a few links.

Btw, Damon, that\'s 21, not 20 http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Thanks again,
Thomas

[Damon]

Thomas,
My question is how does all of that music come from your head? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif It\'s fascinating! I\'ve been composing seriously probably around 8 years now, with computers and midi only about 2 years. I used to sequence everything on my Roland XP-80, but once I started hearing how good samples were getting about the time I heard about Gigasampler I figured I had to take it to another level.
I\'ve had great results with Giga, but with sequencers I can\'t get my stuff to sound \'human\' enough.
Could you maybe share how you go through your process of composing? What sequencer do you use? Do you use a click track when writing your songs? Do you write everything in a program and then put it into the sequencer?
I\'d love to know your process, especially for the string composition. Do you write violin parts first, then celli, etc.? What do you begin your song with first? (Ex: Percussion, strings, brass.)
Also, you have a real knack for percussive programming as well. My orchestral percussion for action tracks always sounds goofy. It never grooves right (I dont know if groove is the right word, but it never seems to play along with the rest of the instruments as well. Ex:snare rolls and timpani, etc.). Any tips for creating a nice percussion template to start an action cue with?
Anyway, keep up the nice work and you should really pursue your dream and not let it pass you by (God, I sound like my mother! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/blush.gif).




[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 09-25-2001).]

[donnie]

Again, not to beat a dead horse but everyone here is really impressed with your work Thomas and I really think that letting everyone see your midi file would help people greatly.

After all thats what this forum is for....sharing ideas!!! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Donnie

[Sonarfox]

Just listened to Unexplored Territory - phenomenal sound. I don\'t think you could get any more \'real\' when it comes to dynamics. You obviously have an understanding of instruments and acoustics. I\'d love to hear a hi-fidelity version and then really get you on a petri-dish! Do you use a particular library for your strings, because I\'m in the market to update my library and was looking for some solid recommendations. Cheers, and thanks for the music.

[Chris Beck]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by donnie:
Again, not to beat a dead horse but everyone here is really impressed with your work Thomas and I really think that letting everyone see your midi file would help people greatly.

After all thats what this forum is for....sharing ideas!!! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Donnie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah that\'s right Thomas, send over that MIDI file, because without proof there\'s no way we could *possibly* believe that you\'re actually an extremely talented composer with a healthy instinct to protect your own investment in sampling and composition technique.

Your offer to answer anyone\'s \"how did you\" questions (and you have foolishly actually answered every question that was actually asked!) just isn\'t good enough around here.

Oh, and get an education already, we all know any composer who doesn\'t recognize \"4:33\" is a hack.

- Chris

[Z6]

I thought the \'background noises\' were because some of it was \'recorded\'. I know that this is sample group, but Thomas posted these MP3s on his own site. What\'s wrong if he used some \'real\' phrases? His site displays his superb compositions; whatever \'tools\' he uses are not relevant to the listener. In fact, if he can layer-in \'real\' and \'sampled\' sounds with such experise, then it only adds to his potential as a working film music composer (or if it\'s almost all real; who cares?).

What I\'d like to hear are some more sparsley orchestrated tunes. Most of the music on the site is suited to \'Epic\' ($100 million plus budget) movies. Thomas obviously loves \'rich\' orchestrations. When he gets around to composers such as Mozart, I\'m sure he\'ll absorb what probably now seems to him like \'lightness\'.

By the way Thomas, I only want to hear such pieces because, in the real world nobody is going to give you a break on this type of stuff. They\'ll want to hear some of your more \'intimate\' material. I\'m certainly looking forward to anything you post on the site. Don\'t be bashful about letting us know when you do update the site. (By the way, you say you usd to do \'techno\', let\'s hear some of that, in fact get it all up there man.)

I hope this doesn\'t end up with the previous \"give us a midi file or you\'re a liar\" thread we saw before.

[Synth2k]

Probably a sensitive issue, but I tend to agree with Chris on the subject of Thomas releasing his MIDI files to the public.

While a great deal could indeed be learned by all from studying Thomas\' orchestration, sequencing and sampling techniques, they are techniques that belong to and have been developed by Thomas and Thomas alone. It is understandable that Thomas wants to keep his tricks under tight lock and key since he has obviously worked hard on developing them. I look at it in the same way as a magician revealing all of his best magic tricks. Perhaps in the future his own unique and refined technique will be what gets him a job over another composer, and I myself wonder why he would want to give it up for free.

Composition is competition as everyone who writes music for a living surely knows. If Thomas wants to reveal his techniques and secrets to the public (for free) I am sure most will welcome them with open eyes and ears, but if he does not I think that it is a wise choice on his part, in order to protect the technique that he has developed on his own so that he may use it to his own advantage to get hired as a composer. Just my opinion of course, among a number of likely similar or differing opinions of everyone here..

Ryan.


------------------
Sonic Control
www..com (\"http://www..com\")
Giga Users Network at
www..com/gigasampler/ (\"http://www..com/gigasampler/\")

[Chadwick]

Great stuff Thomas.
Lovely harmonies.
Fabulous espression.
Good luck with your career - but you don\'t need it http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Craig_L]

Ditto. Great stuff. You have your own style already. Has anyone offered you a filmscore yet?

[csduke]

That\'s right. Certainly almost any jazz musician\'s biography will show how he began by imitating the \"masters\" then eventually developed his own signature. Classical composers as well learned to write in the styles of others first (e.g. Stravinsky) then developed their own personal insights, styles and sounds (e.g. Stravinsky!!).

Thomas has nothing to worry about in this regard.

Craig Duke

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maarten Spruijt:
That\'s a great post, Damon! Very true indeed.
Fortunately, I think every (starting) composer will automatically develop his/her own musical style/sound. It\'s a matter of musical experience, personal experience and time. ;-)

Maarten<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[dandean]

Not to add too much echo to this topic, I would also like to see the midi files and which libraries were used with those midi files to create these renditions.

Why would someone add stand noise and coughing? Wouldn\'t those be items that you would seek to exclude from a recording such as this? I have heard various film scores and there\'s sometimes an inkling of this WAY under the normal program material level, but these recordings exhibit the extraneous noise much louder.

Are these recordings \"hybrids\"? Did you layer midi over live orchestra recordings? The midi files would shed some light on this.

Dan Dean

[donnie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Beck:
Yeah that\'s right Thomas, send over that MIDI file, because without proof there\'s no way we could *possibly* believe that you\'re actually an extremely talented composer with a healthy instinct to protect your own investment in sampling and composition technique.

Your offer to answer anyone\'s \"how did you\" questions (and you have foolishly actually answered every question that was actually asked!) just isn\'t good enough around here.

Oh, and get an education already, we all know any composer who doesn\'t recognize \"4:33\" is a hack.

- Chris<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Chris,

Ok, I have ignored about the first six or seven times you\'ve done this to me and have even tried to make light of it a couple of those times but this time I\'m not going to ignore it.

Considering the fact that Sean and I have given you every library we have I think it\'s a pretty low slap in the face to come on a public board and rip on me several times. Whether you think I\'m right or wrong is up to you but theres a right way and a wrong way to handle these things.

All I asked for is a midi file, something everyone on this site has suggested that we post with every demo to help people learn. I do it and several other people do it also.

If you want to take issue with me personally thats fine but keep your smart *** comments to yourself on this board.

Donnie


[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 09-26-2001).]

[Thomas_J]

Thanks to everyone again for all the nice positive feedback on my music! I think Synth2k convinced me not to publish the midi files.

Damon: Glad you liked it! Most of my musical ideas just flow as I work. The tough thing is to get started. That\'s always a challenge. I compose using Cakewalk. The first step is always to layer out the complete idea of the piece. I tend to follow some pretty cool guidelines that Jack Smalley shared on a lection at my school a year ago. It consists of choosing the right instrumentation for the proper atmosphere you are trying to achieve. It also involves the choice of the \"mood figures\" (squares, triangles and lines). That usually helps me in the starting process. I usually write a quick sketch on my piano and then transfer it into a workable \"condensed score\", which I then base my orchestration on. I\'ve written down lists of different instrument combinations that are well suited for a wanted sound, which I use all the time. Fx. celli+horns gives a thick and bold sound in the mid-register. Flutes doubling violins one octave below gives a haunting, yet light sound etc... I always write for the melody instrument first(perhaps with a simple piano backtrack which helps keeping track of the chord progression), and then I write out the rest of the instruments, double bass in the end. For percussion I just recommend you try everything you have access to. I NEVER quantize my orchestral percussion. That\'s rule no.1. If it sounds sloppy I do another take. And another one, and another one... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Sonarfox: Thanks for the kind words. I use Kirk Hunters Strings. They are about $1000. I think there\'s a better alternative out now, though, called Gigastrings. You find more information on that on www.gigastrings.com. (\"http://www.gigastrings.com.\") It\'s $1400 though.

Craig_L: noone has offered me to score a movie yet hehe. Thanks.

Dan Dean: The libraries in use are my own (brass + percussion), advanced orchestra, kirk hunter and miroslav vitous (woodwinds).
Why would I add noise ambience? Like I said, to give the impression that it was not sampled. If you hear some things that you think could not have been done with samples, please let me know. It\'d be interesting http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Thomas

[Damon]

Thanks for the great tips Thomas. I use Cakewalk as well http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif! I actually have something pretty cool brewing in Giga and Cakewalk right now as we speak with the fast string stuff.
I find not quantizing percussion to be the best bet as well.
Do you ever quantize your fast strings in Calkwalk? If so, what quantization and strength do you use? I usually just do it naturally as close to the metronom as I can.
Chris, I see nothing wrong with sharing tips and ideas here. I thought that was what a forum was for http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif.
I know if someone liked my songs, I would be more then happy with sharing my tips and ideas with them especially when it comes down to sequencing. Sequencing orchestral music is quite a hard task and any tips to make things easier are always appreciated by myself.

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 09-26-2001).]

[donnie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
Thanks to everyone again for all the nice positive feedback on my music! I think Synth2k convinced me not to publish the midi files.
Thomas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


How convient that Ryan \"convinced\" you not to post your midi files.

Let me just come right out and say it.....I think your full of it. I don\'t think what your doing is real and until you do something to prove otherwise keep your demos to yourself.

You are doing nothing to help this forum.by throwing up demo and after demo.

Everyone can start flaming me now but I\'m telling you when it\'s all said and done I can promise you that I was right about this!

Donnie

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by donnie:

How convient that Ryan \"convinced\" you not to post your midi files.

Let me just come right out and say it.....I think your full of it. I don\'t think what your doing is real and until you do something to prove otherwise keep your demos to yourself.

You are doing nothing to help this forum.by throwing up demo and after demo.

Everyone can start flaming me now but I\'m telling you when it\'s all said and done I can promise you that I was right about this!

Donnie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Donnie,

Like Bruce Richardson said in your \"Cage Listening Test\" thread, don\'t you think that \"Some ideas are best spoken in code.\"? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Nicholas

[2ny]

Well... I find Thomas demos inspiring. They really make me want to improve my own midi work.

-Tony

[Tokyo Joe]

If the demo\'s are \"fake\" then Thomas is really only cheating HIMSELF. No one else.

Also, why would someone go to the bother of trying to trick the 20 or so people who are interested in orchestration on this board? I don\'t think this is another case of the \"Milli Vanilli\'s\", do you?

[Thomas_J]

Oh my god, here we go again. That\'s a really funny post there Donnie http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I appreciate the sarcasm. Donnie, just what is it that you fail to believe? What do you think I\'ve done? I\'ve asked this before, and I\'ve not gotten any answer. Please email me and do not let your frustrations affect the other users on this forum. Like I said in the first post, \"for those who are interested.\"

I posted the link to this forum because I think there are loads of competent musicians and midi-orchestrators who frequent this board, who might come with constructive criticism. It is always nice to hear what other people think about one\'s work. You seem to think so as well. Posts of your percussion and prosonus demos are in high numbers. Nobody seem to mind. Why am I an exception?

Thomas

[Marc Floessel]

Donnie, I would really like to know what exactly you would do when it turned out Thomas\' work was genuine all the time. I don\'t think a simple \"Duh, sorry.\" would do at this point.

-Marc

[donnie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
Hi Donnie. I\'m not everyone\'s Midi-doctor. People post demos all the time to this forum, nobody else gets a piece of your mind like I do. I posted these demos simply because loads of people were emailing me, requesting more of my music. So rather than going through my email inbox and locating those emails from people who were interested, I just made a quick post to NS. I never forced anyone to listen. They made their own decision. I never said \"Just tell me where it hurts and I\'ll patch you up\". I don\'t care if you find my post unhelpful. I never intended to help you out with anything. I\'ve given you all the advice I can. As long as you\'re working with finale, on 100% quantized sequences, I fear that a midi-file of any of my work would be useless to you. I answer every question I\'m asked, with a honest heart. I truly assure you I am not making this up. You can choose not to believe me (in which case I\'d prefer it if you EMAILED me on it rather than subjecting other people to it) or you can simple forget about it.

Thomas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thomas,

I don\'t use Fianle to orchestrate. I use Digital Performer on my G4. I am an arranger also so I use Finale for notation purposes only. However it is handy to run things straight out of Finale every once in awhile.

I still think you are missing my point. Is the purpose of this forum not to help others? I think it is. If you\'ve looked at my midi files that I\'ve posted you would know that they are not quantized at all.

Posting demos and then refusing to post midi files to help others is throwing your work in peoples faces.

Hey man if your stuff is legit I\'ll be the first one to say you are the BEST at what you do. The demos you\'ve posted certainly would indicate that. However, I am also smart enough to know that they could also be not all real.

In any case producing a midi file would not only put this to rest but more importantly would be great incite to everyone on this board including myself. Bottom line is that there just isn\'t ANY reason NOT to post a midi file unless there isn\'t one.

Donnie

[Ewen]

Thomas

What choir library do you use in the beginning of \'Something Out There\' ?

And which samples do you use from AO ?

And last question: Are you going to make your own brass library? If so, I will surely buy it http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Ewen

[Thomas_J]

Ewen, the choir is from Peter Siedlaczek\'s Classical Choir. I use pretty much all the various articulations in AO, including runups/downs for passages that are hard to do with staccato samples. I\'ve also modified the Advanced Orchestra brass to work better. I have described this in an earlier post I believe.

Thank you Donnie. I gave given this issue some serious thought. I came up with a pretty fitting paralell:

A guy designs a 3D object and posts it to some 3d studio forum to get feedback. One guy freaks out and says \"You could never do that with 3dstudio max. It looks to real. It\'s a photograph. Send me the object file, or else I won\'t believe you.\". Now this guy doesn\'t want to send the object file. It\'s his work. He\'s spent loads and loads of time on it, \"I\'d be darned if I would just send it out for everyone to rip.\"

Thomas

[Synth2k]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by donnie:

How convient that Ryan \"convinced\" you not to post your midi files.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooops, sorry guys. I didn\'t want to convince Thomas one way or another - just offering my view on why he might be reluctant to post his MIDI files, not fully seeing the full picture of the debate here. Perhaps I should have said nothing :-)

Perhaps Thomas could post a screen shot of the arrangement view in his sequencer instead of distributing his MIDI file? Maybe that could be a happy medium between the posting of the actual MIDI file? Not that I am the official (or un-official) arbitrator here, becuase I agree that a lot could be learned by all. But, it is respectfully up to Thomas.

Ryan.



------------------
Sonic Control
www..com (\"http://www..com\")
Giga Users Network at
www..com/gigasampler/ (\"http://www..com/gigasampler/\")

[donnie]

Thomas,

You are not making any sense. How is it going to hurt you to post your midi file? People on here still won\'t have your samples. So what the big deal?

Donnie

[Haydn]

I find listening to Thomas_J\'s work to be instructional. Sometimes we need to use our minds to figure out how someone pulled off something. This can actually cause us to discover new ways to do things that may be better than what the original creator did.

There may be copyright issues distributing MIDI files especially concerning original material.

After repeated listenings to Thomas_J\'s work, IMO he is the real deal and just knows what he is doing. I definitely can hear many of the samples he\'s using. On one of the pieces Thomas_J said he played a real trumpet solo.

I think his posts shows us that you can get more out of some of the currently available libraries. His posts have been causing me to start writing more of my own material!!

[Thomas_J]

Ok Donnie, here\'s a screenshot. Now shut up.
http://home.online.no/~finjaco/SWORDFIGHT.JPG (\"http://home.online.no/~finjaco/SWORDFIGHT.JPG\")

If you compare that screenshot to 00:40 in swordfight (with the triplets in the trumpet ending in a maj7 harmony and then a major) you\'ll see that track 13,25,26 and 29 features that trumpet sequence.

Thomas

[Haydn]

Thomas,

How do you tell your tracks apart? I notice that the tracks aren\'t named.

[donnie]

Thomas,

I\'m not really sure what that was that you posted but there is obviously TONS of cc messages going on which would indicate a TON of work and thought. This is what I\'ve been saying all along. There is obviously alot that everyone could learn from this midi file...........so why don\'t you post it!!!

Donnie

[Thomas_J]

I\'m usually too inspired with the music I\'m writing, I sometimes forget to write out track names, and suddenly I\'m sitting there with perhaps 20 midi channels (and growing) without a single name. It can be quite frustrating. I guess I need to work on my habits http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Donnie, you are right, there is a lot going on. I\'m not going to post the midi file. If there\'s something in particular you wonder how I did, just ask me and I will try to explain. Is this a deal with can both live with? Peace? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Thomas

[PatS]

If I wrote music that well, I might show you a few pages of my score and give you a couple of screen shots of the MIDI sequence, but I would never dream of posting the MIDI file to the Internet in toto. I view MIDI files as source code, and not all source code is or should be available to the public (pace those of you who are members of the open-source community). True, the tacit dictum of this forum is “share and share alike.” But I don\'t recall signing a form stating that I have to give up my right to privacy so that others may benefit from my hard work. Therefore, if Thomas doesn\'t want to share his \"trade secrets\" with us, so be it. And if you think he\'s a fraud, bear in mind that he\'s really only hurting himself.

Having said all that, I still can\'t get over how much \"Mysteries of the Mind\" sounds like a live recording. I\'d love to see how Thomas feathered in those \"ambience\" samples, not because I don\'t believe him but because I\'d like to do the same with my orchestral sequences (if and when I can find the time to work on them). I particularly like the \"air\" that those samples create: the space feels very much alive. On the other hand, I do find the occasional taps and bumps a bit distracting; I\'d edit those out of the wave file.

Thomas, share what you can and when you can. If you’re willing to let us peek over your shoulder (more screen shots, snippets from MIDI files, etc.) that would be great, but you are under no obligation to do so. We can just get over ourselves.

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 09-26-2001).]

[ursatz]

Thomas,

If you\'re willing to tell us, I\'d be interested to know whether you use a click track, and if so, how. That\'s something that\'s always given me fits. My current practice (not used in anything I have online yet) is to record a version of the piece, probably simplified if it\'s orchestral, with completely free timing. Then I\'ll use SONAR\'s \"Fit Improvisation\" function to adjust the tempo to match what I\'ve recorded. (This step requires a lot of hand editing to meet the stringent requirements of the \"Fit Improvisation\" function.) If I need it, I\'ll also make a click track artificially with quarters or eighths or whatever. The result is that the staff view ends up looking reasonable, but the tempo still has the freedom of the original recording.

This method is far from ideal. The \"Fit Improvisation\" function just barely works; and you still don\'t want to quantize everything, even to match a fluctuating tempo. It\'s the best I\'ve come up with so far, though.

[donnie]

Ok Thomas fair enough....

A couple of questions:

Where is the shaker from in This is Goodbye?

Can you solo just the horn part in This is Goodybe? And why is there hangover from what appears to be a harp note at the begining? It sounds like you made a cut from a recording.

In Unexlored Territory there is an audible cut in the middle. This isn\'t midi its an audio cut.....what gives there?

In Something Out There at the begining of the track you can here what sounds like either the needle of a record dropping or a tape \"play\" button clicking on. DId you mean to sample that and put it at the begining?

Donnie

PS...I have some more questions but this should be enough for now.

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
Sonarfox: [snip] I think there\'s a better alternative out now, though, called Gigastrings. You find more information on that on www.gigastrings.com. (\"http://www.gigastrings.com.\") It\'s $1400 though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sonarfox:

GigaStrings is now called Garritan Orchestral Strings, if you haven\'t already discovered the name change. Go to www.garritan.com (\"http://www.garritan.com\") for more information. You\'ll see that the price is still $999.

Pat

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by donnie:
Ok Thomas fair enough....

A couple of questions:

Where is the shaker from in This is Goodbye?

Can you solo just the horn part in This is Goodybe? And why is there hangover from what appears to be a harp note at the begining? It sounds like you made a cut from a recording.

In Unexlored Territory there is an audible cut in the middle. This isn\'t midi its an audio cut.....what gives there?

In Something Out There at the begining of the track you can here what sounds like either the needle of a record dropping or a tape \"play\" button clicking on. DId you mean to sample that and put it at the begining?

Donnie

PS...I have some more questions but this should be enough for now.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Come back Endicott, all is forgiven! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[Tokyo Joe]

Donnie,

At the risk of repeating myself... why would Thomas go to all the bother of trying to trick the 20 or so people who are interested in orchestration on this message board? I just don\'t get it.

[Chris Beck]

Fine Donnie, send me a bill.

As you know I think you & Sean do excellent work. I\'ll happily pay for the libraries from now on if it means I retain the right to call you on what I perceive to be incredibly childish behavior on a public forum.

This is the last I will say on this topic. You have my email, Donnie, if you want to continue this discussion. I think you and anyone else who\'s followed this thread knows how I feel.

- Chris

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by donnie:

Chris,

Ok, I have ignored about the first six or seven times you\'ve done this to me and have even tried to make light of it a couple of those times but this time I\'m not going to ignore it.

Considering the fact that Sean and I have given you every library we have I think it\'s a pretty low slap in the face to come on a public board and rip on me several times. Whether you think I\'m right or wrong is up to you but theres a right way and a wrong way to handle these things.

All I asked for is a midi file, something everyone on this site has suggested that we post with every demo to help people learn. I do it and several other people do it also.

If you want to take issue with me personally thats fine but keep your smart *** comments to yourself on this board.

Donnie


[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 09-26-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[dandean]

Greetings,

As an aside, anyone know why someone from the following IP blocks has been trying to hack into my system:

inetnum: 217.80.0.0 - 217.89.31.255
netname: DTAG-DIAL14
descr: Deutsche Telekom AG
country: DE
--------------------------------------------------
inetnum: 217.0.0.0 - 217.5.127.255
netname: DTAG-DIAL13
descr: Deutsche Telekom AG
country: DE
--------------------------------------------------
inetnum: 62.155.128.0 - 62.155.255.255
netname: DTAG-DIAL10
descr: Deutsche Telekom AG
country: DE
--------------------------------------------------
According to my log, this amounts to at least 88 separate attempts. I don\'t know what it is you\'re looking for, or why you\'re looking for it, but its not there.

Dan Dean

[Marc Floessel]

Dan,

There\'s a good chance your IP troubles are not related to NorthernSounds, but random internet scans. Besides, I am not aware of any germans besides me reading NS.

-Marc

[dandean]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marc Floessel:
Dan,

There\'s a good chance your IP troubles are not related to NorthernSounds, but random internet scans. Besides, I am not aware of any germans besides me reading NS.

-Marc<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Marc,

I was making the attempt to use some restraint and taste, but...

Someone from the IP blocks:

62.155.128.0 - 62.155.255.255

has been trying to hack into my system. Your last post uses the IP address:

62.155.178.136

That falls into this IP block. That would indicate that it is probably you trying to hack into my system. For your information, this has nothing to do with NSS, Jim Nabors or Buddy Ebsen.

Dan Dean

[donnie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nicholash:

Donnie,

Like Bruce Richardson said in your \"Cage Listening Test\" thread, don\'t you think that \"Some ideas are best spoken in code.\"? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Nicholas

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nicolas,

I couldn\'t agree more.....it just ticks me off that more people aren\'t getting this!

Donnie

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
Oh my god, here we go again. That\'s a really funny post there Donnie http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I appreciate the sarcasm. Donnie, just what is it that you fail to believe? What do you think I\'ve done? I\'ve asked this before, and I\'ve not gotten any answer. Please email me and do not let your frustrations affect the other users on this forum. Like I said in the first post, \"for those who are interested.\"

I posted the link to this forum because I think there are loads of competent musicians and midi-orchestrators who frequent this board, who might come with constructive criticism. It is always nice to hear what other people think about one\'s work. You seem to think so as well. Posts of your percussion and prosonus demos are in high numbers. Nobody seem to mind. Why am I an exception?

Thomas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Thomas,

Please don\'t let these people put you off posting to this forum. There are others who do appreciate/are interested in your posts, as can be seen by the popularity of the threads that you have initiated.

Best regards
Nicholas

[Marc Floessel]

Dan, obviously you take this rather seriously, but I have to smile here, because it\'s too obvious. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Just some points:

1. 255 * 255 = 65025 options (like a provider subnet?)
2. I wouldn\'t know your IP address until your post
3. Why those large IP-nets? If someone hacks your computer, and you have software installed to detect it, you should be able to see his exact IP?

Well, I can see you don\'t trust me, and the situation can quickly deteriorate.

You can phone me (email me) and you can ask me again in person.. If that sounds like more trouble than publicly ACCUSING ME OF HACKING your PC, ...it will not have a positive effect on my opinion on you.

So?

-Marc

[Marc Floessel]

And who is Jim Nabors?

[donnie]

Thomas,

Ok let me, as nice as I can, try to explain this again.

Whenever I post a demo of something it\'s for several reasons: One is because it\'s a project I\'m working on and something thats going to be availble to the people on this forum for them to use also. Two I want feedback on how I can improve my work to best suit the needs of users on this forum. And finally I always post midi files of my work to help others on this forum with midi orchestration.

You are posting demos that are of NO benefit whatsoever to anyone on this forum other than to just listen to. You are your buddies came on here with your paper on how to sample and how you guys were going to make this big library but never said whether or not you were going to sell it.

If your not going to release your library then the least you can do is post your midi files and contribute to this forum. Otherwise you are just throwing things in peoples faces and not helping anyone here.

Donnie

[Thomas_J]

Hi Donnie. I\'m not everyone\'s Midi-doctor. People post demos all the time to this forum, nobody else gets a piece of your mind like I do. I posted these demos simply because loads of people were emailing me, requesting more of my music. So rather than going through my email inbox and locating those emails from people who were interested, I just made a quick post to NS. I never forced anyone to listen. They made their own decision. I never said \"Just tell me where it hurts and I\'ll patch you up\". I don\'t care if you find my post unhelpful. I never intended to help you out with anything. I\'ve given you all the advice I can. As long as you\'re working with finale, on 100% quantized sequences, I fear that a midi-file of any of my work would be useless to you. I answer every question I\'m asked, with a honest heart. I truly assure you I am not making this up. You can choose not to believe me (in which case I\'d prefer it if you EMAILED me on it rather than subjecting other people to it) or you can simple forget about it.

Thomas

[JoE]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marc Floessel:
Besides, I am not aware of any germans besides me reading NS.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don\'t mean to revive a discussion that wasn\'t too pleasant to begin with, but there are actually quite a few Germans in this forum - including myself. But as a rule I don\'t do business with the \"Deutsche Telekom AG\", so I wouldn\'t be at any of their IP addresses. Many others do, however...

Regards,
Jens.

[Jamieh]

Deutsche Telekom AG is HUGE and I imagine a large percentage of Germans use them for an ISP.

[Marc Floessel]

Sorry Jens. I guess I wanted to say \"Dan, you don\'t really think it could have been me, do you? (But of course you do...)\"
The whole thing reminds me of when Bardstown catched a virus and someone (Donnie?) made sure to tell everyone it was sent by purpose out of Holland from someone on NS. Back then I felt that was a possible jab at Maarten. (Why else bring it up?)

Anyway, Dan, I am extremely disappointed that you are so quick to come up with a false accusation and then just pull out when it\'s time to confront responsibility. I just can\'t grasp what\'s going through your mind...

[Thomas_J]

Glad to hear that you are no longer calling me a liar, Donnie. I still think it deserves an apology though. I\'m not going to make a big deal out of it. To answer your questions,

1) The shaker in \"This is Goodbye\" is from my yamaha CS2x synth, from the general midi drumkit.

2) You are right about the first note in \"This is Goodbye\", I cut off the first 3 minutes of the composition to make it shorter.
The horn is Miroslav Vitous solo horn (You don\'t recognize the excessive vibrato?) and clever use of interval samples. I could post just the horn part but I don\'t see the point, it\'s pretty naked as it is.

3) The cut in \"Unexplored Territory\" actually not a cut but a change in volume. I Had to normalize the two seperate parts.

4) In \"Something Out There\" I didn\'t notice that sound before you made me aware. Beats me what it is. Probably harddrive noise being picked up by the soundcard recording.

Ursatz, I usually work with a GM hihat metronome click track for the music that deserves to be in sync http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Sometimes I write parts without a click track though, fx many of my string adagios were written without tempo in mind, which would make them hard to read in a staff view http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif sounds like you have a great idea there, with \"fit improvisation\".
Whatever works you know!

Thomas

[ChrisAxia]

Hi Thomas,

Firstly, I have to say the compositions and arrangements are excellent. There is no doubt that you are a very talented young man. I wish I could do the stuff you are capable of, and I\'m helping a friend compose some cues for a major film score at the moment! I think you thoroughly deserve a career in Film scoring.

However, even though your tracks are probably the best examples of orchestra imitation I\'ve heard (along with the James Newton Howard \'Dinosaur\' cue) , I cannot possibly understand the other musicians on here that believe them to be real orchestral recordings. There are so many \'giveaways\' even if you don\'t listen that carefully!

The two biggest flaws for me are the strings and the actual \'space\' the recording is in. I know you used a cheap Zoom for reverb. Time to use something better I think! In fact, in the piece where you\'ve added the background noises, it is easy to hear the real space of those noises, and this makes the Zoom reverb sound even more artificial!! And I\'m sure when you get gigastrings, things will improve even more.

So, I have to say to anyone who is accusing you of lying; Do you really know what a real orchestra sounds like? Maybe I can forgive your mistake if you listened on some cheap PC speakers, but if you listened on a half decent hi-fi and still believe these tracks to be real, you\'d better get your ears tested!

Well done again Thomas, and good luck to you in the future.

Regards,

Chris Nicolaides


[This message has been edited by ChrisAxia (edited 09-27-2001).]

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ChrisAxia:
. . . I cannot possibly understand the other musicians on here that believe them to be real orchestral recordings. There are so many \'giveaways\' even if you don\'t listen that carefully!

[snip]

So, I have to say to anyone who is accusing you of lying; Do you really know what a real orchestra sounds like? Maybe I can forgive your mistake if you listened on some cheap PC speakers, but if you listened on a half decent hi-fi and still believe these tracks to be real, you\'d better get your ears tested!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Through my harman/kardon speakers attached to my work PC, \"Mysteries of the Mind\" sounds very much like a live recording. The operative word here is \"like\" (read: \"similar to,\" not \"identical to\"). The sound quality of that demo (calling it a \"demo\" is an understatement, to be sure) impressed me. There are moments in that piece when the instruments do sound sampled, but those perceptions didn\'t interfere with my overall sense that I was listening to a live orchestra. In other words, I readily embraced the illusion and was all the better for it. Maybe I was just concentrating on the musical content and ignored the \"giveaway\" clues. Can you forgive me for actually listening to the music?

BTW, the other pieces, though wonderfully written, were not as realistic sounding. I enjoyed them nonetheless.

Pat

P.S. I\'ve been listening to orchestral recordings and live orchestras for over 20 years. And some of those recordings (LPs and CDs) pale in comparison to Thomas\' mp3 of \"Mysteries of the Mind.\"

[ChrisAxia]

Hey Pat,

You are forgiven! As you rightly pointed out, if you concentrate on the musical content and enjoy it \'musically\', your mind can be fooled for a while, but as you also rightly pointed out, it sounds \'similar\' to a real orchestra, not exactly. I\'m sure there are many non-musicians who would have been easily fooled by Thomas\'s tracks, but the whole point of this forum (The orchestral part that is!) is for musicians who are actively trying to achieve the most realistic orchestral simulation.

So I find it very hard to believe that other musicians could not tell that the pieces were sampled, and instead come on here accusing an obviously very talented composer of cheating! And then insist that he gives them his midi files!! If Thomas does not want to divulge all his tricks, that\'s up to him.

I think Thomas has basically given a very good lesson to all of us. In fact, I was taught this lesson by various midi files several years ago. I bought a midi file disk of some of John Williams scores and triggered a Roland JV General Midi set. I couldn\'t believe that it sounded pretty good. So I then set it up really well with samples from my K2000 and Roland S770. I was amazed! In fact a non-musician friend walked in and thought I was listening to the CD!! It taught me that if the composition and more importantly the arrangement is good, then even if the sounds aren\'t 100% convincing, somehow their weaknesses are \'hidden\', and the illusion succeeds.

This also applies to pop music. I downloaded some David Foster stuff, including EW&F\'s After the Love Has Gone, and just triggering my JV1080, it sounded great. The song was so well arranged that again, the sounds themselves became less critical.

Obviously if you then have great sounds, things are even better, BUT you\'ve got to have a great arrangement to start with, and this is something that Thomas excels at. Having said this, it is still very easy to tell that the tracks are sampled, mainly as I said before, because of the strings and the poor reverb. I\'m sure very soon, even I\'ll have to listen very carefully to be sure!

Chris

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ChrisAxia:
Hey Pat,

You are forgiven! As you rightly pointed out, if you concentrate on the musical content and enjoy it \'musically\', your mind can be fooled for a while, but as you also rightly pointed out, it sounds \'similar\' to a real orchestra, not exactly. I\'m sure there are many non-musicians who would have been easily fooled by Thomas\'s tracks, but the whole point of this forum (The orchestral part that is!) is for musicians who are actively trying to achieve the most realistic orchestral simulation.

So I find it very hard to believe that other musicians could not tell that the pieces were sampled, and instead come on here accusing an obviously very talented composer of cheating! And then insist that he gives them his midi files!! If Thomas does not want to divulge all his tricks, that\'s up to him.

I think Thomas has basically given a very good lesson to all of us. In fact, I was taught this lesson by various midi files several years ago. I bought a midi file disk of some of John Williams scores and triggered a Roland JV General Midi set. I couldn\'t believe that it sounded pretty good. So I then set it up really well with samples from my K2000 and Roland S770. I was amazed! In fact a non-musician friend walked in and thought I was listening to the CD!! It taught me that if the composition and more importantly the arrangement is good, then even if the sounds aren\'t 100% convincing, somehow their weaknesses are \'hidden\', and the illusion succeeds.

This also applies to pop music. I downloaded some David Foster stuff, including EW&F\'s After the Love Has Gone, and just triggering my JV1080, it sounded great. The song was so well arranged that again, the sounds themselves became less critical.

Obviously if you then have great sounds, things are even better, BUT you\'ve got to have a great arrangement to start with, and this is something that Thomas excels at. Having said this, it is still very easy to tell that the tracks are sampled, mainly as I said before, because of the strings and the poor reverb. I\'m sure very soon, even I\'ll have to listen very carefully to be sure!

Chris

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Chris,

Given that, in one of my initial listening exercises, several people thought my fairly purist recordings of real orchestras sounded sampled, I\'m no longer surprised that some people are so easily fooled into thinking that a performance using sampled instruments is the real thing!

Nicholas

[dandean]

Hi Pat,

Thanks for your post. I\'ll be doing some research on this, and I appreciate your pointers to specific topics and expertise on this subject.

Question: if the intruder is using DHCP and reboots his system, isn\'t the user assigned a different IP address? What if the user rebooted say, 50 times? Couldn\'t he be assigned 50 different IP addresses? If so, wouldn\'t these randomly assigned IP address fall within the netblocks assigned to the ISP? Is it unreasonable to assume that an array of different IP addresses within a IP block might be originating from a single user using DHCP?

If my understanding of DHCP is flawed and this is not the case, then I would be the first person to apologize for the incorrect assumption on my part. The information that I was given by different webmasters and IT people was the basis for my assumption. The Jim Nabors inclusion was a very different matter altogether...

Thanks,
Dan Dean

[apessino]

>>
This method is far from ideal. The \"Fit Improvisation\" function just barely works; and you still don\'t want to quantize everything, even to match a fluctuating tempo. It\'s the best I\'ve come up with so far, though.
<<

Now there is an interesting topic, IMHO..

In my.. er.. \"younger\" years there was not much to think about when it came to \"composition workflow,\" everything was done at the piano and notated with pencil and paper. For conservatory and musical theatre work, which is what I did the most, this was usually followed by monster music copying sessions with friends/players to prepare score and parts. By the way, this was the early 1980s, not the middle ages.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Those days are gone, and now I can produce scores and parts like a professional engraver, and in a fraction of the time it used to take to make just one set of parts. What\'s more, I can create _relatively_ convincing sketches of orchestral performances for rehearsals and, sometimes, as production pieces.

These technologies add whole new set of dilemmas as to what the best workflow for composing is. Over the past few years I have gone back and forth between a number of possibilities, and while I think I am getting better at this, I have not yet found a procedure that satisfies me completely.

I am aware that many contemporary composers work directly into a sequencer (and not just film composers, I know for a fact that John Adams works this way), and then have \"little people\" take their sketches and turn them into fully realized pieces. In the case of film music, the composer often only provides a rough sketch in the form of a sequenced file, others expand and orchestrate on such ideas.. and then the composer conducts the result! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif It all seems rather paradoxical to me, but hey.. what do I know.

Let\'s try to formalize the process a bit, shall we? When composing a piece I have the following requirements:

a) I must write the music out in full first. Unless I am doing something very very simple composing in the sequencer is just not an option. I also dislike the kind of \"slavery to the samples\" that sequencing-to-compose brings, where you are immediately limiting your creative palette to a set of prerecorded expressions.

b) I want to create a MIDI sketch using samples/sequencer _regardless_ of whether it will be performed by an orchestra/ensemble. If the MIDI realization is not the goal of the project, then it will be very useful as rehearsal guide or just to communicate ideas to others.

c) In some instances, the piece will have to be scored to video.

Most people here agree that hard quantizing of performances is highly detrimental to the musicality of the result, and yet some are willing to chain themselves to a regular metronome for a lot of their sequences. A vital aspect of musical performance is the continually changing shape of the meter, as it is dictated by the conductor.

Just recently I have had an idea for a new approach to the whole thing.. (new for me, I am sure someone must have done something like this already). I haven\'t tried it yet, but I will soon (hopefully). Here is the algorithm:

a) compose the piece in the notation software of choice (Finale/Sibelius/Igor/etc.).

b) print out the conductor score.

c) setup a static camera, and conduct an imaginary orchestra while taping yourself. You can sing, if it helps, otherwise you should just play the piece in your head as you conduct it _exactly_ the way you\'d like it played.

d) in scoring to picture, it should be easy to conduct to a playback of the video; one could even encode SMPTE on the \"conductor track\" for future reference. Or maybe even have the conductor track \"split screen\" with the source video.

e) create the sequence by playing the parts in while following the conductor on screen.

There are several things I like about this; for example: when composing, the fact that a MIDI sketch might be sequenced afterwards is not a consideration. In fact, one needn\'t worry about it in the least, and instead the focus can remain on the music. The procedure neatly postpones the sequencing issues until they become relevant, and saves the composer from Sample Slavery Syndrome.

Also, and in theory, if one is recording with, say, an orchestra in Eastern Europe and traveling is not an option, then the conductor track could be sent along as a rehearsal guide. They might think you are odd, but I think it would work..

Well, there it is. Has anyone here ever attempted something along these lines?

Cheers.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

A-

--------
Andrea G. Pessino (not female, just Italian)
Blizzard Entertainment

apessino@blizzard.com

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dandean:

Originally posted by Marc Floessel:
Dan,

There\'s a good chance your IP troubles are not related to NorthernSounds, but random internet scans. Besides, I am not aware of any germans besides me reading NS.

-Marc<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Marc,

I was making the attempt to use some restraint and taste, but...

Someone from the IP blocks:

62.155.128.0 - 62.155.255.255

has been trying to hack into my system. Your last post uses the IP address:

62.155.178.136

That falls into this IP block. That would indicate that it is probably you trying to hack into my system. For your information, this has nothing to do with NSS, Jim Nabors or Buddy Ebsen.

Dan Dean



Dan,

If you are now convinced that it is very unlikely that Marc was trying to hack into your system, perhaps it may be a good time for an apology. What do you think?

Nicholas
p.s. What has all of this got to do with sampling? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[PatS]

Dan,

I\'ll e-mail you my answers in the interest of keeping this topic on course.

Pat

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gav:
Interesting decision to go to the trouble of adding ambient clicks and pops from players accidentally hitting music stands and coughing etc. Certainly adds to the realism.

Gav<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I\'ve got quite a lot of live recordings of ambient \'atmospheres\' from concert halls that can be mixed in with \'sampled performances\' to help the illusion of \'realism\'. Perhaps I should develop a sample CD-ROM of these? Do you think there is a reasonable market out there for such a thing?

Nicholas

[Jeff Hurchalla]

I really like your idea Andrea. I\'m certainly not qualified to comment much on how well it should work, but I can remember explaining some programming work I was doing to my mother recently - she wanted to know how any one person could create a decent multitrack performance without a conductor. I just said, \"umm, well obviously you um perform one track and play along with it and it\'s fine... I think.\" I wish I\'d thought of your suggestion. \"Well obviously you record video of yourself conducting in your head, and then play aloing with it.\" Seriously though, it makes sense to me http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Marc Floessel]

Nicholash,

I think a CD full of sampled \"silence\" actually already exists. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I can\'t recall the name right now, but I definitely saw it lying around in studio once and read the backcover. Back then I thought \"how stupid!\".

-Marc

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marc Floessel:
Nicholash,

I think a CD full of sampled \"silence\" actually already exists. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I can\'t recall the name right now, but I definitely saw it lying around in studio once and read the backcover. Back then I thought \"how stupid!\".

-Marc<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi marc,

Maybe that\'s where Donnie got his 4\'33\" excerpt for his \"Cage Listening Test\" thread? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Nicholas

[ursatz]

Andrea,

I\'ve actually had that same idea, plus a bunch of related ones, mostly hare-brained. (E.g., a motion sensor attached to the arms that would record conductor-like gestures and translate them into tempo indications and/or midi messages. Sorta like a Theremin, only different. Would you buy one?? Sheesh, I probably should have kept this idea to myself. Dang.)

In the interest of keeping this thread at least a little bit related to Thomas\'s excellent demos, maybe if there\'s more discussion about click tracks etc. it should get its own thread... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif


[This message has been edited by ursatz (edited 09-27-2001).]

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ursatz:
Andrea,

I\'ve actually had that same idea, plus a bunch of related ones, mostly hair-brained. (E.g., a motion sensor attached to the arms that would record conductor-like gestures and translate them into tempo indications and/or midi messages. Sorta like a Theremin, only different. Would you buy one?? Sheesh, I probably should have kept this idea to myself. Dang.)


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I wrote a boring dissertation on the application of computers to music more than 10 years ago and somebody had already built one of those. :-) Don\'t know how well it worked though. (There was probably something pre-dating that, I would think.)

[Duncan Brinsmead]

>c) setup a static camera, and conduct an
>imaginary orchestra while taping yourself.

I had much the same idea, being frustrated trying to coordinate performances on separate tracks. A click track just doesn\'t provide the anticipation one needs during a tempo change, and it just feels like playing to a metronome. When I mentioned the idea to some others, they thought I was nuts. One could import the video into cakewalk, but I don\'t have a digital video camera, so I haven\'t tried it yet.

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ursatz:
Andrea,

I\'ve actually had that same idea, plus a bunch of related ones, mostly hair-brained. (E.g., a motion sensor attached to the arms that would record conductor-like gestures and translate them into tempo indications and/or midi messages. Sorta like a Theremin, only different. Would you buy one?? Sheesh, I probably should have kept this idea to myself. Dang.)

In the interest of keeping this thread at least a little bit related to Thomas\'s excellent demos, maybe if there\'s more discussion about click tracks etc. it should get its own thread... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very interesting stuff! It reminds of Max Matthews\'s Radio Baton (http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/CCRMA/Courses/252/sensors/node27.html (\"http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/CCRMA/Courses/252/sensors/node27.html\")) and Manfred Clynes\' SuperConductor (http://www.superconductor.com (\"http://www.superconductor.com/\")). Maybe Tod Machover\'s group at MIT\'s Media Lab could help you (http://www.media.mit.edu/hyperins/ (\"http://www.media.mit.edu/hyperins/\")).

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 09-28-2001).]

[ursatz]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PatS:
Very interesting stuff! It reminds of Max Matthews\'s Radio Baton (http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/CCRMA/Courses/252/sensors/node27.html (\"http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/CCRMA/Courses/252/sensors/node27.html\")) and Manfred Clyne\'s Super Conductor (http://www.superconductor.com (\"http://www.superconductor.com/\")). Maybe Tod Machover\'s group at MIT\'s Media Lab could help you (http://www.media.mit.edu/hyperins/ (\"http://www.media.mit.edu/hyperins/\")).

Pat<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting indeed! I hadn\'t heard of the radio baton - very thought-provoking. (I\'ve run across SuperConductor before - I think it sounds awful; it was a topic here some time ago.)

Z6, do you by any chance recall who made that device? I\'d be interested to read your \"boring\" dissertation, if possible.

(Sorry, Thomas - I guess your demo thread is destined to be a home for all sorts of subjects. Click tracks, IP addresses, \"air conductors\" ... what\'s next?!)

[MidiDimwit]

Hey, I just got over this nasty bug that had me on the can for the last 3 days. Anybody else catch this thing? Seems to be going around http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[apessino]

>>
In the interest of keeping this thread at least a little bit related to Thomas\'s excellent demos, maybe if there\'s more discussion about click tracks etc. it should get its own thread...
<<

Oops.. you are absolutely right. I apologize for pushing the discussion further off topic, I should have created a new thread.

Sorry!

A-

[apessino]

>>
A click track just doesn\'t provide the anticipation one needs during a tempo change, and it just feels like playing to a metronome.
<<

Very well put, Duncan! When conducting, one uses the entire body in a variety of ways to shape the performance. The conductor provides a physical interpretation of the musical _intention_, not merely attacks and tempo indications.

Therefore, I don\'t think any of those devices would help much, because they are just fancy ways of creating click-tracks. So, ursatz, I would not buy your device.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Cheers,

A-

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ursatz:
Interesting indeed! I hadn\'t heard of the radio baton - very thought-provoking. (I\'ve run across SuperConductor before - I think it sounds awful; it was a topic here some time ago.)

Z6, do you by any chance recall who made that device? I\'d be interested to read your \"boring\" dissertation, if possible.

(Sorry, Thomas - I guess your demo thread is destined to be a home for all sorts of subjects. Click tracks, IP addresses, \"air conductors\" ... what\'s next?!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What\'s next? Judging from MidiDimwit\'s recent post in this thread (i.e. \"Hey, I just got over this nasty bug that had me on the can for the last 3 days. Anybody else catch this thing? Seems to be going around\"), the next subject in this thread may be germ warfare! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ursatz:
Interesting indeed! I hadn\'t heard of the radio baton - very thought-provoking. (I\'ve run across SuperConductor before - I think it sounds awful; it was a topic here some time ago.)

Z6, do you by any chance recall who made that device? I\'d be interested to read your \"boring\" dissertation, if possible.

(Sorry, Thomas - I guess your demo thread is destined to be a home for all sorts of subjects. Click tracks, IP addresses, \"air conductors\" ... what\'s next?!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you\'re ever near Stirling University (Scotland), go to the library (take a vacuum cleaner because it certainly hasn\'t been read since it was written) and ask for it (expect blank looks). You won\'t find much though, I suspect the urls provided by Pat would be much more informative. Mostly what I remember seeing is Stanford, Stanford, Stanford: everything interesting at that time was being done in Stanford. Also, there was a German guy (now dead, unfortunately, and I can\'t remeber his name either) who used to sing falsetto and play a \'Light Harp\' (the music was great - there was a lot of great synth stuff coming out of Germany at that time).

There were dancers also who were \'jumping about\' (with sensors attached) making music. The baton that I remember also had a kind of tablet and a joystick. As I said, I never heard it (saw it in the flesh?), and I\'m sure if you\'re technically inclined it would be a lot easier to make something like that now than then. If I were you I\'d check out Stanford, I\'m sure they\'re still at the edge of the curve with all the money they made from FM and their physical modeling (maybe the physical modeling hasn\'t made so much yet, but it will in time).

There are a lot of wild and wonderful instuments out there if you ferret about, and the builders are usually happy show off their inventions.

What\'s this thread about again? . . Oh, give me that bloody midi file or I\'ll cave your skull in! Give me it I say!

[apessino]

>>
there was a German guy [..] who used to sing falsetto and play a \'Light Harp\'
<<

Now there\'s an image of virility for you.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

And yet, I must confess to liking counter-tenors very much.. David Daniels being my favorite. How about starting a discussion on singers who try to sound like they lost their nuts long ago, and their contribution to our immortal art? After \"germ warfare\" we do need a little beauty..

Well, regarding the off-topic bit, I should try to defend myself by pointing out that it all started because Thomas\' pieces sound so wonderfully expressive that some here wondered how to go about achieving similar results.. that\'s all. It is no excuse, but at least it is a reason! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

All the best,

A-

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marc Floessel:
Just some points:

1. 255 * 255 = 65025 options (like a provider subnet?)
2. I wouldn\'t know your IP address until your post
3. Why those large IP-nets? If someone hacks your computer, and you have software installed to detect it, you should be able to see his exact IP?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dan,

Marc is absolutely right. Tier 1 providers are granted numerous CIDR blocks (Classless Inter-Domain Routing), typically within the old Class A range. These providers then chop up the blocks, doling out as many IP addresses (in \"subnet\" chunks) as a customer would need. For our company, I\'ve leased 16 public (global) IP addresses from UUNET (63.102.70.64/28), 14 of which I can assign to devices in our DMZ (the first number in the address range is the network address; the last is the broadcast address). Some companies only lease 4 IP addresses (e.g., 63.102.71.4/30), 2 of which are assignable to devices (a router and, perhaps, a public server). Moreover, these companies tend to hide behind a NAT-based router, firewall appliance or an application proxy server, so if you were attacked by someone from one of these companies, your traceroute would go no farther than the router or proxy server. But you could contact the company\'s network administrator, who could then check the access logs to determine who was attacking you.

Still, I find it hard to believe that your tracking software or router can\'t identify the exact IP address (or group of addresses in the event of a DDoS attack). Can you at least obtain a number for the third octet (the number after the second decimal)?

I know from daily experience that Apache keeps very detailed access logs. I see that your host server is a dual-processor PC running Red Hat Linux 6.2 with kernel v2.4.9 (I got this from a telnet session; you really should disable in.telnetd and use ssh instead). Therefore, without further research, I\'m guessing you\'re running Apache. If not, you should, if for no other reason than to take advantage of its logging features. At the very least, you should use a different tracking utility or even a packet sniffer.

Regardless, you\'ve really jumped the gun on this one. If I may, I recommend you spend more time tracking down the exact IP address or subnet address.

Good luck, and be kind!

Pat

P.S. Sorry for the digression. If I recall correctly, this topic is about Thomas\' demos.

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 09-27-2001).]

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ursatz:
(I\'ve run across SuperConductor before - I think it sounds awful; it was a topic here some time ago.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I met Clynes at a Music Perception and Cognition conference at Berkeley 6 or 7 years ago. I endured his \"special presentation\" of the SuperConductor prototype (I forgot what he called it back then). I thought the results sounded ridiculous (to say nothing of his talk) and almost walked out of the hall. I don\'t know why, but your comment \"Sheesh, I probably should have kept this idea to myself. Dang.\" triggered that old memory of Clynes: something to the effect of \"I wish Clynes had kept his ideas to himself.\" http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Footnote: A researcher with whom I worked for a short period during my time at New Haven put Clynes\' \"theories\" to the test, analyzing dozens of recorded performances of a single piano piece and evaluating the \"preferences\" of skilled and non-skilled listeners who heard the same recordings plus a dead-pan MIDI performance. I don\'t recall why my friend thought Clynes\' work merited verification/falsification, other than he needed something to do in the lab. Fortunately, that research spun off into numerous, more interesting studies of \"expressive timing and amplitude variations.\"

But, once again, I digress.

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 09-28-2001).]

[RICARDO BOTTICELLI]

come back to thomas music.
well,could say me thomas which string library
was used in swordfight 02:17 and 02:50?
by the way when your brass library will be ready to buy?
thanx for your great tips and music.

[Christian F Perucchi]

Hi, I now is a 10 year old thread, but, i would love to hear all this demos again to se what can be done with older libraries, don´t you think?
Tell me if is wrong to post in an old thread
Cheers to everyone!
Christian)(~

[Christian F Perucchi]

anyone?%- Please!!!