Notion 3

[fabiolcati]

Goodmorning to all.

Just found that people at Notionmusic uploaded the full user guide:

http://www.notionmusic.com/support/pdfs/Help.pdf

I hope it could be helpful to evaluate while waiting to test in the real world.

Have a nice day

---
Fabio

[Jon Bryson]

Goodmorning to all.

Just found that people at Notionmusic uploaded the full user guide:

http://www.notionmusic.com/support/pdfs/Help.pdf

I hope it could be helpful to evaluate while waiting to test in the real world.

Have a nice day

---
Fabio

That is helpful, thanks!

Jon

[marce]

What a Manual! 290 pages. The program looks powerfull. Thanks the link.

[Johannes]

Could somebody confirm, that it has no quantize and humanize function at all?!? Sequenzer staff, realtime recording, but no correction? Is this possible?

Best,


Johannes

[marce]

Could somebody confirm, that it has no quantize and humanize function at all?!? Sequenzer staff, realtime recording, but no correction? Is this possible?

Best,


Johannes

Interesting what you point Johannes. In the manual the only way i found to correct the realtime recordings is the manual tap (the NTempo thing) and it also mention than when you switch from the "sequencer staff" to the real staff view, there is some kind of correction (quatization of the view). But no reference to quantization at all.
I would like to know too.

[KylePoehling]

Interesting what you point Johannes. In the manual the only way i found to correct the realtime recordings is the manual tap (the NTempo thing) and it also mention than when you switch from the "sequencer staff" to the real staff view, there is some kind of correction (quatization of the view). But no reference to quantization at all.
I would like to know too.


The sequencer staff records MIDI in and displays the information in typical sequencer view, but on a staff. You can then edit the performance with your mouse and keyboard. At this point you can either convert it to notation or export it as audio or midi.

The quantization occurs when you convert to notation, which allows you to have the best of both worlds (notation and sequencing).

Hope this helps!
Kyle

[marce]

The sequencer staff records MIDI in and displays the information in typical sequencer view, but on a staff. You can then edit the performance with your mouse and keyboard. At this point you can either convert it to notation or export it as audio or midi.

The quantization occurs when you convert to notation, which allows you to have the best of both worlds (notation and sequencing).

Hope this helps!
Kyle

thanks your answer!

So, when you convert a real-time recorded sequence to notation quantization is applyed. Then...
1-If you convert the staff to sequence staff later, the real performance is lost?
2-Is that quantization configurable or the program have factory settings only?


Thanks!

[karvasika]

thanks your answer!

So, when you convert a real-time recorded sequence to notation quantization is applyed. Then...
1-If you convert the staff to sequence staff later, the real performance is lost?
2-Is that quantization configurable or the program have factory settings only?


Thanks!

To me this seems like a really weird approach for a notation software that wants to become better at integrating with a DAW.

When you lose the real-time performance, this indeed doesn't give the best of both worlds - instead you lose the other world. The software forces you to choose whether you you want you music to sound natural and "performed" or whether you want to have it notated... it just seems weird, since for example in Overture you can have both without losing the other.

[KylePoehling]

To me this seems like a really weird approach for a notation software that wants to become better at integrating with a DAW.

When you lose the real-time performance, this indeed doesn't give the best of both worlds - instead you lose the other world. The software forces you to choose whether you you want you music to sound natural and "performed" or whether you want to have it notated... it just seems weird, since for example in Overture you can have both without losing the other.


With a simple "Save As" you can have the best of both worlds.....assuming that you want the notation for print.

[karvasika]

With a simple "Save As" you can have the best of both worlds.....assuming that you want the notation for print.

Hi! Thanks for the reply!

Do you mean mean saving separate versions for print&performance? But doesn't this take you back to the situation you had before Notion3: you'll have two versions of your music again (compare to: a notation file and a re-programmed midi export in the sequencer)? If I have another performance-version of my music, I might just as well have it in my DAW.

I see the big picture as having only one file containing both notation and extremely good midi programming so that you can get the parts to the real players and ALSO have the same file sound awesomely natural and realistic (by having performed and programmed it yourself).

But I don't mean to mock the current features - maybe it'll prove to be even better than I think after trying out the demo! :)

[rbowser-]

Hmmmm, well a sequencer without a wide variety of quantization choices, including quantizing to a modeling clip is woefully primitive.

Randy

[LFO]

What would be interesting is if you could, say, enter the notation and while you are entering the notation Notion would create a hidden sub-track that creates the equivalent on a piano roll. (For this example the piano roll note will be called the `MIDI note'.) The score note would always be associated with the MIDI note so that even if you changed the duration of the MIDI note the associated score note would remain the same. At the same time there would be universal attributes for each note that would change both `copies' of the note no matter if you changed it on the score or on the piano roll. For instance, if you changed the note from a D to an E on the piano roll, the note would change to an E on the score also. I would imagine universal attributes would be things like note name and articulations.

Here is an example. Lets say I create a trumpet line. Notation would actually create a trumpet score staff and a hidden piano roll track. The piano roll track could either be shown by keyboard shortcut (`show piano roll tracks') a checkbox by the trumpet staff or whatever. (You could also have a `show only notation' option and a `show only piano rolls' option.) So I enter a phrase on the trumpet staff. The equivalent appears on the piano roll. The last note of the phrase is a quarter note, however I want it to hold an extra little bit. I go to the piano roll and stretch the note a bit. Now when the note is played it holds a bit longer but on the staff it is still a quarter note. Next, I realize that the note needs to be changed from a D to an E. I happen to be on the piano roll so I drag the note up to an E. When I look at the notation, the note has changed to an E. I then realize it needs to be an E flat. I add a flat to the note on the score. When I look at the note on the piano roll the note has moved to E flat.

That are some first thoughts towards what I think would be the perfect Notation / Sequencer product. I've used the score editors in Cubase, Logic and DP and some come sorta close to this but not close enough. The same goes with Sibelius and Finale. Maybe I should develop my own product and become a millionaire. *Shrug* ~|

-Kevin

[Raymond62]

I simply don't understand everything you all wrote. It is going too far. The latest message about getting the MIDI notes - wether or not corrected or lenghtened - to the score sounds heaven to me.

It should be not too difficult to make some kind of a "door" between two programs, the DAW midi and the score. When a score has some sort of an eventlist, like the DAW midi has, an internal wiring [in fact sending out messages/receiving messages from the score = read notation program] can be applied to make a perfect connection to both worlds.

Exactly as LFO said, but then "both" ways.

Right now I have to load both, the SONAR environment and the Notation program. Amending some note in SONAR is easy enough, but then I have to find the exact position in the Notation program and amend it accordingly. Sometimes this is not possible, because of the CPU load and amount of RAM. That's why I write down those amended/altered notes simply on the printed score for later correction.

As I said, a "direct" connection between the two will be very, very handy indeed.

Raymond

[Michael_uk]

Even if achievable would it be desirable to have a single program capable of doing what the best notation editors and the best sequencers offer? Imagine merging together into one application Finale and Sonar or Sibelius and Cubase. ~| I think the resulting application would be so big and complex as, perhaps, to be unmanageable.

I wish I had a penny for each time I have read people bemoaning the fact that such and such sequencer is lacking good notation editing features or that such and such notation editor is lacking good sequencer features. I want the best notation editing so, for me, I use Finale, I want the best seqencer so, for me, I use Sonar. It is such an easy process to work on a file moving from Finale to Sonar and vice versa.

I realise that there are cost implications buying two programs not to mention the separate learning curves. However, for me, having the best of both worlds available to me was worth the outlay and the effort.

I continue to wish Notion every success in its mission. :)

[Michael_uk]

..... It should be not too difficult to make some kind of a "door" between two programs, the DAW midi and the score. ..... As I said, a "direct" connection between the two will be very, very handy indeed.

RaymondHello Raymond,

Actually this would indeed be a really good feature. For the notation editor and sequencer to have a direct link so that any changes in the sequencer update the score automatically in real time and and vice versa.

Who knows, it could be that this feature might start appearing in future upgrades of the leading notation editors and sequencers. Watch this space. ;)

Yes .. that would work for me. :)

[sonata5920]

Gday,

Kevin, try Notation Composer at http://www.notation.com/ (http://www.notation.com/) . It does what you wish for. I have been using it for many years. The graphics of piano roll is unusual. You edit piano roll numerically. Notation Composer has some very good functions. It does not have an audio mixer but permits control of CC’s. Having notation and piano roll side by side saves a lot of time. If I have the need, I export to Cubase. A new version of Notation Composer with a mixer is expected.

Herbert

[KylePoehling]

What would be interesting is if you could, say, enter the notation and while you are entering the notation Notion would create a hidden sub-track that creates the equivalent on a piano roll. (For this example the piano roll note will be called the `MIDI note'.) The score note would always be associated with the MIDI note so that even if you changed the duration of the MIDI note the associated score note would remain the same. At the same time there would be universal attributes for each note that would change both `copies' of the note no matter if you changed it on the score or on the piano roll. For instance, if you changed the note from a D to an E on the piano roll, the note would change to an E on the score also. I would imagine universal attributes would be things like note name and articulations.

Here is an example. Lets say I create a trumpet line. Notation would actually create a trumpet score staff and a hidden piano roll track. The piano roll track could either be shown by keyboard shortcut (`show piano roll tracks') a checkbox by the trumpet staff or whatever. (You could also have a `show only notation' option and a `show only piano rolls' option.) So I enter a phrase on the trumpet staff. The equivalent appears on the piano roll. The last note of the phrase is a quarter note, however I want it to hold an extra little bit. I go to the piano roll and stretch the note a bit. Now when the note is played it holds a bit longer but on the staff it is still a quarter note. Next, I realize that the note needs to be changed from a D to an E. I happen to be on the piano roll so I drag the note up to an E. When I look at the notation, the note has changed to an E. I then realize it needs to be an E flat. I add a flat to the note on the score. When I look at the note on the piano roll the note has moved to E flat.

That are some first thoughts towards what I think would be the perfect Notation / Sequencer product. I've used the score editors in Cubase, Logic and DP and some come sorta close to this but not close enough. The same goes with Sibelius and Finale. Maybe I should develop my own product and become a millionaire. *Shrug* ~|

-Kevin

This is a very interesting idea and I'm sure there is a way to make this work in regards to harmony, but I can't see this working with rhythm...unless the rhythm of the "two versions" were completely independent of one another.

[KylePoehling]

Hmmmm, well a sequencer without a wide variety of quantization choices, including quantizing to a modeling clip is woefully primitive.

Randy

I think you mis-interpreted what we were discussion in reference to quantizing.....I was referring to quantization in regards to converting performance to notation. Not in reference to quantization choices or a modeling clip.

[marce]

I think you mis-interpreted what we were discussion in reference to quantizing.....I was referring to quantization in regards to converting performance to notation. Not in reference to quantization choices or a modeling clip.

Hi Kyle. So, there are options for quantize performance in the sequence staff?

[KylePoehling]

Hi Kyle. So, there are options for quantize performance in the sequence staff?

No....sorry to be misleading. We are working towards the "best of both worlds" but not in this particular release:)

[marce]

No....sorry to be misleading. We are working towards the "best of both worlds" but not in this particular release:)

Thanks your answer. Yes, i guess that the quantize option will be missed for an important part of the users. Even that, the tempo managing of the program appears fantastic and can make the need of quantization not so big.

[LFO]

This is a very interesting idea and I'm sure there is a way to make this work in regards to harmony, but I can't see this working with rhythm...unless the rhythm of the "two versions" were completely independent of one another.

Exactly. My thought would be to have the rhythm strictly come from the piano roll. In other words, despite the changes we have to make to the duration of the note in the piano roll, the value of the note on the score remains the same unless we change it on the score.

If a relationship is established between the note on the staff and the note on the piano roll you can then define which attributes are shared between the two and which are not. This provides a powerful means of scoring and programming with minimal (if any) additional complexity.

-Kevin

[frivo]

I think I have an idea to solve this problem with independent midi and note rhythm..

If you enter a quarter note in the score, you will also get it in the piano-roll, accurate. But, by edit this midi-note in the pianoroll, you simply set some "off-set" values. In that way, the note, and the midi isn't completly independent, but still different. The note (in the score) should get another color, to make it visible that it is not "quantized". If you move a note from a place to another in the maeasure, the offsets can be keeped. Later you can quantize agian, either the notation, or the pianoroll.

If you move the midi too far away from the note, it sill stop, or maybe move the note also.

If you record in midi, you can quantize the notation, but keep the midi-rythm. (It is also an idea to give a value in percent how accurate you will quantize the pianoroll, to keep a human touch, but a bit more accurate).

[LFO]

Maybe another way to say what you are describing is this:

Assuming that the score data is kept in XML format, you could create a schema that provides one data value for the score and another for the piano roll. Other data points, such as note name would be shared between the two.

-Kevin

[frivo]

Maybe, but I not sure. To me it sounds like this will get the score and pianoroll quite independent. I think the score and pianoroll (or the new sequencer staff) should be linked together, with a allowed off-set, up to a given point.

I can't so much about XML, but I know a bit of regular databases. If you mean two different tables for the score and the pianoroll, I would rather prefer the same table (and record), but a field for the score (accurate) and and another field for offset (+ or -).

[sonata5920]

Gday,

Why reinvent the wheel, when Notation Composer of http://www.notation.com/ (http://www.notation.com/) is doing it very comfortably? “Notation Composer” should not be confused with “Notion”.

Notation Composer uses piano roll and strict notation in one file with total freedom for either. The developer Mark Walsen claims that his software delivers the best results for recording from a keyboard to midi, when compared to any other software currently available.

Herbert

[frivo]

Well, it isn't to reinvent the wheel I think, but to get the program (Notion)better. "Musicator" is antoher program that have score/pianoroll "independent". The problem is that programs miss a lot of other features.

Unfortunately, none notation programs are perfect (yet). Some programs are good in "human playback", other have good methods for input by keyboards or mouse, others is good for tweak midi-information. I should wish I could to put the best feature from each program, and mix it to my own special edition notation program!

At the glance, Notation Composer seems to be too simple for me. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems to not support VST-instruments for example.


By the way I see Notation Composer offer a free demo, so maybe I will give them a try.

[marce]

Gday,

Why reinvent the wheel, when Notation Composer of http://www.notation.com/ (http://www.notation.com/) is doing it very comfortably? “Notation Composer” should not be confused with “Notion”.

Notation Composer uses piano roll and strict notation in one file with total freedom for either. The developer Mark Walsen claims that his software delivers the best results for recording from a keyboard to midi, when compared to any other software currently available.

Herbert

Hi Herbert. I take a look to Notation, and indeed, it´s a very interesting program. But people looking at Notion is looking more for a "all-in-one" solution (something that deals with notation/audio/big-sample libraryes/tempo management). Notation appear powerfull in some areas, but it lacks in others, by example, i dont see any support of keyswitches for deal with GPO and that.

[frivo]

I said above that Notation Composer (at a glance) seems to be too simple for me. After a little more "research" I must admit that it is more advanced than I thougth, with many good features for tweaking CC, velocity etc. But after all, I think it lacks some other features that Notion have.

So the conclusion is as I wrote above: None notation programs are perfect (yet). It is allways something whichs is better in the competitors program.