Orchestral Trumpet Section test recordings finished !

[Maarten Spruijt]

Hi everyone,

Remember the orchestral brass sampling project I started a topic about some months ago?

We just finished our test-phase recording sessions for the orchestral trumpet section samples.

They turned out really great, following some of the theories described in this \"Manifesto\" and my \"Articulations reseach\". Very useful different portato and staccato sample lenghts!

We are now editing, processing and programming the samples.

When we have some real demos, I will post them on this forum.

Maarten Spruijt


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( www.maartenspruijt.com (\"http://www.maartenspruijt.com\") )
ICQ: 37834976

[Maarten Spruijt]

A FIRST QUICK DEMO IS HERE !
http://www2.hku.nl/~maarte2/public/testtrumpetsection2.mp3 (\"http://www2.hku.nl/~maarte2/public/testtrumpetsection2.mp3\")

This small theme (Chicken Run) is performed with our new trumpet section samples, using 4 or 5 different articulations: staccato, short portato, long portato, hard-attack portato. The samples are performed by a 3 player trumpet section.

Just a 1st sample, to give all of you a clue what our test-phase samples and new articulations sound like. Programming is still in progress...


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( www.maartenspruijt.com (\"http://www.maartenspruijt.com\") )
ICQ: 37834976

[Dis]

Yes, it sounds great! Finaly a trumpet section which sounds like from a hugh modern film soundtrack. If the quality will be the same also about other instruments, it will be the sample\'s heaven.

[esperlad]

I like the demo too!
I can\'t wait to hear more.
This would be great for my band works.

[Robert Kral]

yes this IS the way to do it!!!

My only gripe is that some of the samples sound a bit flat, pitch wise. Easily fixed with furhter editing I presume

But they are full of life and so much more like the real thing. This is definately the way to go. Can they be made available for public purchase by the end of the week?!

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Simon Ravn]

Very promising Maarten! I just hope that the pitch-slideups will be optional, since I would probably only use that on very rare occasions!

[Jamieh]

I like the tone of the trumpets a lot. However the scoop on the front of the notes sounds a bit funky. Hopefully that can be fixed with more editing.

[Chris Beck]

the stereo imaging is a bit strange.

the longer notes seem left heavy compared to the shorter notes.

otherwise it sounds very promising.

- Chris

[Nick Phoenix]

Sounds very promising, I agree.

[Ewen]

That\'s great, can\'t wait for the demos...

Did you record 3 or 4 trumpet section?

Ewen

[Chadwick]

Thank goodness someone else mentioned the scoops.

Other than that, sounds goooood.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chadwick:
Thank goodness someone else mentioned the scoops.

Other than that, sounds goooood.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having manned the business end of a trumpet for over thirty years myself, I agree the the tone is right on target. A few observations:

The imaging shifts are going to be a difficult thing to overcome, because they are exacerbated by distance--exponentially!! This is a known tradeoff. I believe the mic distance here is workable, from what I\'m hearing, a reasonable balance was struck which allows detail. In the example, it was difficult for me to judge whether the reflections were sufficiently low in amplitude compared with the direct sound. The truncated staccatos seemed clipped compared with the more marcato samples that seemed to ring fully, and this is one of the tradeoffs when reflections become a part of a sample...your ear detects the anomaly when the reflection is cut off before completing its decay. This will be an unavoidable challenge when recording in a reflective environment. Judicious use of gobos can help this...it doesn\'t take much to knock out a reflection or two, and that may be all that is required. Even a few stacks of chairs against a telltale flat wall can diffuse problem reflections. Also, you can hang or drape blacks to kill these--most multipurpose halls have plenty of curtains and legs in stock. Legs are great, you can generally rig them on a traveler track and pull them to whatever position is needed.

Clapping hands at the player position, the mic position, and listening for \"pinging\" will reveal the source of these.

Another technique used often is recording a slapstick. Blow up/zoom in on the waveform, and you will see every reflection. If you find large ones, you can compute the timing against the speed of sound and locate the offending surface easily. Drape it or drag something in front of it to diffuse the reflection and you can generally eliminate the problem.

If the trumpet section recordings are complete, it\'s too late for this suggestion, but I would definitely adopt a \"targeting\" methodology for further samples. Place a piece of colored tape at the top of each player\'s bell, and draw some circular \"targets\" on paper. Ask the players to sit comfortably, then have someone move these targets until they line up with the tape on the players\' bells. Affix the targets in this position, and make sure your players are always aligning to their individual target. You will have to remind them before each take. This will stabilize the imaging a great deal...only a few degrees variation makes a radical difference in the dry/reflective content the microphone hears. When recording music, these variations are of little consequence within reason. When recording samples, these variations lead to VERY noticeable imaging shifts, however.

Per the scoops, these are characteristic of 99% of players in the world. Only the very top players are \"scoop free\" most of the time. The rest of us do our best. I would pitch correct these to a degree since they will come back to haunt at the least opportune moment.

Best of luck. I hope some of the above may help with future sessions.

Bruce

[Oliver]

the Stereo field is unatural but the sound is sweet!
I also detect some pitch stuff but it\'s mainly that the attack of the trumpet is on the Right , then the sound \"swells\" to the Left creating a slight doppler effect.

Sounds nice though, great work.

[Oliver]

the Stereo field is unatural but the sound is sweet!
I also detect some pitch stuff but it\'s mainly that the attack of the trumpet is on the Right , then the sound \"swells\" to the Left creating a slight doppler effect.

Sounds nice though, great work.

[PatS]

Maarten:

Would you give us an outline of what your project might look like once completed? Also, when do hope to finish it?

Nice job, BTW. Thanks for keeping us posted.

Pat

[Maarten Spruijt]

Bruce, thank you very much for the practical and technical explanation! Very useful! The medium-sized orchestral hall we used had indeed quite a \'pre-delay\' at certain spots, even ON the stage. We tried to put the MS mic system on the least \'delayed\' spot.

Some good points/criticism has been given so far. REMEMBER THAT THE TRUMPET SAMPLES WE\'RE NOW TALKING ABOUT ARE PART OF A TEST-PHASE, to experiment with some of the new aspects here. The pitch-problem and stereo-imaging are two things we immediately added to our \"things-to-think-about-and-improve\" list.
The cause of the pitch-problem has already been accounted for by Bruce and Oliver.
The stereo-image flaws are the result of (1) natural inconsistency in the dynamic performance of the players and (2) the distance of the main mic system to the players, which was in a range making it possible for these left/right problems to occur.

--------------------------------------------

As for an outline of the complete project, PatS...

When we have succesfully evaluated this test-phase and its recordings we\'ll continue with the complete, extended sampling of the following orchestral instrument groups:

* Trumpet section (3 players, normal and muted)
* French Horn section (4 players, normal and muted)
* Trombone section (4 players, including 1 bass trombone)

At this point programming is planned for Giga-native format only. Other formats will be considered later on in the process.

An official website dedicated to this sampling project (aka \"Project SAM\") is under development. It will contain status information, demos and perhaps more.

Keep up the good feedback & thanks again for the great support!

Maarten Spruijt


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( www.maartenspruijt.com (\"http://www.maartenspruijt.com\") )
ICQ: 37834976

[Ewen]

Maarten:

Any news about your brass lib project?

Ewen

[Maarten Spruijt]

Hi Ewen,

As you know the samples we\'ve recorded so far are part of a test session. We\'re currently planning the final recordings and the points of improvement to be considered.

However, this sampling project isn\'t our main occupation, composing is, and since there are a couple of composing/scoring projects going on at the moment, we\'ve had less time to put into our sampling project.

Wish I could let you know more!

Maarten

[tomhartman]

I do hope that you can get 6, rather than 4 horns.
That\'s been one of the problems with existing libraries, for those of us who are after the kind of scope that great film scores achieve.