Seeking soundcard advice for Authorized Steinway

[bgranat]

I have two questions:

1. Does anyone here know what soundcard will be suitable for me to use with PrintMusic 2010 and the Garritan Authorized Steinway library (computer specs are at the end of this)?

2. Does anyone here know whether most sound cards are compatible with ASIO?


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I am planning to purchase a new spiffy computer that will have Realtek ALC888, but neither the manufacturer of the computer (HP) nor MakeMusic can tell me whether that will be what Garritan advises I use for the Steinway library.

The following is from the Garritan FAQ:

What Soundcard Do You Recommend?

People ask us often about soundcards we recommend. Although we cannot recommend specific cards (each system is different), there are many good and inexpensive ones to choose from. Yamaha and M-Audio are brands you may want to research for soundcards. Your soundcard is very important to making music with our software instruments. It is important that you have something a step above a "stock" consumer grade soundcard that comes pre-installed in your computer. Stock soundcards are not designed to handle higher quality sounds and the performance needs of Garritan instruments.

In looking for a soundcard, be sure to look for a low-latency card. Make sure you have a soundcard with adjustable buffers so you can set the latency. Basically, latency is the time it takes to play a sound on your keyboard to when you'll hear it playing from your speakers. There is a inverse relationship between latency and performance. The lower the latency the higher the resource demands. One can often find a sweet spot between latency and performance and each system is different.


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Also, the system requirements Garritan publishes on its site include “compatibility with ASIO,” and HP said it doesn't know what that is.

Any thoughts or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

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Computer specs:

Configurable- HP Compaq dx7500 Microtower PC
-Configurable- HP Compaq dx7500 Microtower PC - FN838AV
Genuine (http://welcome.hp-ww.com/country/us/en/mda/genuine_landing.html) Windows Vista® Custom Downgrade to XP Pro
Intel® Q45 chipset integrated
HP dx7500 Country Kit Includes a Quick Setup & Getting Started manual in English and a country-specific power cord.
Intel® Core 2 Duo E8500 3.16GHz L2-6MB) processor
3GB PC2-6400 (DDR2-800) 3x1GB
Integrated 1394 Port
Promo HP 320GB SATA NCQ HDD SMART IV Hard Drive
HP Backup and Recovery Manager Software standard
No Removable Storage Media Device
SATA 16X SuperMulti LightScribe drive
HP PS/2 Standard Keyboard
No Mouse
No Item Selected
HP 3-3-3 (parts/labor/next business day on-site) warranty Microtower


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Thanks!

[Ken-P]

ASIO is a type of audio drivers, specified by Steinberg. It is widely used in most soundcards except in the most entry-level.

For your sake, go to
http://www.audiomidi.com/audio-interfaces-C18.aspx
or somewhere, find out the models you like. Then check its detail or site at manufacture to see whether the product has ASIO driver or not. It most likely dose though.

[Michael_uk]

Hello bgranat,

The question of soundcards has been asked many times in our forums. For dedicated audio and music production you should consider a card dedicated to this. Examples of popular choices include the M-Audio 2496 and the higher spec Audiophile 192 to name just but two. I have the Audiophile 192 and this is superb.

Please try a search and you will find several full debates on the issues of sound cards. Using the key words 'Sound cards' I found the following as an example amongst several debates.

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68506&highlight=sound+cards

[electone2007]

to the OP: You were asking as to what soundcard would be good for notation software and Garritan Steinway.

By this, I take it that your main use for Garritan Steinway won't be for live playing but mainly for notation and rendering to an audio file.

The onboard Realtek will be more than sufficient for the task. When converting notated music to audio, the soundcard hardly has a role. The quality of resulting audio will be the same whether you have a high end soundcard or just the onboard audio.

Having said that, I would venture to say that you shouldn't discount the onboard Realtek for live playing. Although the Steinway manual advices to avoid using onboard audio, you will be pleasantly surprised as to how the newer onboard audio performs. You have to use a generic ASIO driver to decrease latency. You can download one at www.asio4all.com (http://www.asio4all.com).

I use my laptop with onboard Realtek and Asio4all to play live in church each Sunday using the Garritan Steinway. No problems so far.

But if you really want to get a separate soundcard, you can't go wrong with M-Audio as suggested above. I have had an Audiophile 2496 for the past 4 years and have had no problems. It comes with its own ASIO driver.

[bgranat]

to the OP: You were asking as to what soundcard would be good for notation software and Garritan Steinway.

By this, I take it that your main use for Garritan Steinway won't be for live playing but mainly for notation and rendering to an audio file.

The onboard Realtek will be more than sufficient for the task. When converting notated music to audio, the soundcard hardly has a role. The quality of resulting audio will be the same whether you have a high end soundcard or just the onboard audio.



Yes, all I want to do is playback in PM 2010 and creation of audio files.
You are the second person to respond that the Realtek might be okay, so that's encouraging. Are you saying that the divine sound I hear of the Garritan samples on the company's website is likely what I'll hear when I make audio files -- right out of the box? It's just solo piano I'm doing. And are you saying that a soundcard's heft is needed mostly for amplification purposes and not recording itself?

I know next to nothing about audio so I have little understanding of what I *do* read online nor the inclination to begin learning about the subject from the ground up. I am concerned about being able to install and get things running myself, so I've considered putting an ad on craigslist in order to try to get someone knowledgeable over to my place to do the job for me. Anyone in the Boston area interested in this piddly "job"? Worth probably an hour's time?

I'm sometimes producing some interesting stuff, so I want to be able to hear it on a decent-sounding piano. I can play through to the digital piano, but that requires that I turn the volume up on the piano high enough to hear it. The piano's just three feet away from the computer, but it's still too loud for some times of the day, and frankly, the Yamaha CLP-840 now sounds pretty lame. I guess the newer DPs are better. This model was made in 1998, and I had a new keyboard installed after the thumping became too obnoxious, so I'm not about to buy a new piano.

Anyway, I'm strictly amateur and don't make my living from playing, but perhaps when I grow up I will be able to do so.

[bgranat]

I found someone local who is assisting me in making decisions. He seems top-notch.

[Raymond62]

I found someone local who is assisting me in making decisions. He seems top-notch.


... and when you decide for a certain soundcard, can you tell us what he recommended?

Raymond

[bgranat]

... and when you decide for a certain soundcard, can you tell us what he recommended?

Raymond

Yes, I will. Earlier, the poster Electone2007 said:

"The onboard Realtek will be more than sufficient for the task. When converting notated music to audio, the soundcard hardly has a role. The quality of resulting audio will be the same whether you have a high end soundcard or just the onboard audio."

So the high-end soundcard is mainly for live performance? I had to really dig to find out that the Audiophile 2496 does support ASIO, but I finally found it. If Garritan says it's a system requirement, shouldn't I take it at its word?

This fellow's not an expert, but his day job is pretty responsible and he had good references.

He seems to think the Realtek ALC888S might be enough, too, but I feel insecure about ignoring the system requirements that Garritan publishes.

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I had a hard time finding confirmation that the 2496 did, in fact, support ASIO, but I found it eventually:
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile2496.html (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile2496.html).

It would be nice to not need to spend $129.00 more if I don't need to. I will definitely post the end of this saga (it feels like one, anyway) when it's happened.

To Michael-uk, I understand the words, but not the meaning, of most discussions about soundcards, but thank you for your recommendation. :wow:

[P.T.]

When you work with sampled instruments like the steinway, you are not recording audio. The sampes are the audio.
For playback, the realtek won't really sound different from a better soundcard.
The soundcard also has no effect on the rendered wave that you make as a final product for people to listen to. That is done in the computer.

If you were recording audio of a miked piano then the soundcard would matter.

The other situation where the soundcard would matter is if you use a keyboard to play the Garritan piano to record the midi performance.
A better soundcard will have lower latency (latency is the time between hitting a note on the keyboard and actually hearing the note played. It has to do with the time it takes the entire system to process the information) and the midi may be more accurately recorded.
If you only use notation then it doesn't matter.

[bgranat]

When you work with sampled instruments like the steinway, you are not recording audio. The sampes are the audio.
For playback, the realtek won't really sound different from a better soundcard.
The soundcard also has no effect on the rendered wave that you make as a final product for people to listen to. That is done in the computer.

If you were recording audio of a miked piano then the soundcard would matter.

The other situation where the soundcard would matter is if you use a keyboard to play the Garritan piano to record the midi performance.
A better soundcard will have lower latency (latency is the time between hitting a note on the keyboard and actually hearing the note played. It has to do with the time it takes the entire system to process the information) and the midi may be more accurately recorded.
If you only use notation then it doesn't matter.

Thanks for your explanation, P.T. All I can say is, "Why didn't I think of that simple fact?"

However, I *will* be inputting via MIDI -- that's primarily how the notes get into the notation program. Unfortunately, the digital piano's speakers don't work while I'm playing (if they did, I could just turn the computer's speakers off) --well, they're not the computer's speakers, but the Yamaha speakers that are part of my stereo system. I guess I'll hear how bad the latency is with the Realtek and go from there.

[Michael_uk]

The onboard Realtek will be more than sufficient for the task. When converting notated music to audio, the soundcard hardly has a role. The quality of resulting audio will be the same whether you have a high end soundcard or just the onboard audio.






When you work with sampled instruments like the steinway, you are not recording audio. The sampes are the audio.
For playback, the realtek won't really sound different from a better soundcard.



I disagree. I have both onboard realtek and the Audiophile 192. A professional, dedicated audio card will make a difference to onboard audio both for recording and playback.

[bgranat]

I disagree. I have both onboard realtek and the Audiophile 192. A professional, dedicated audio card will make a difference to onboard audio both for recording and playback.

"Oh, my," she said, smiling sardonically at the computer screen.

I shall see what the output is and if I can live with the recording delay. I hate it now and rarely use the HyperScribe tool because of it, not to mention the atrocious sounds that come out of my speakers, which I'd swear turn up their noses in disgust.

[electone2007]

Edit: Sorry, I meant to address Michael, not Raymond.

Michael,

I have to respectfully say, you are just confusing bgranat. Please read our (PT and electone2007) posts in full before responding. There will definitely be a difference when recording audio, but not that much when playing back audio, and no difference at all when just rendering notated MIDI to audio files.

Bgranat,

You should install asio4all to decrease latency with your onboard audio.


Jun

[bgranat]

Raymond,

I have to respectfully say, you are just confusing bgranat. Please read our (PT and electone2007) posts in full before responding.

Bgranat,

You should install asio4all to decrease latency with your onboard audio.


Jun

Yup, that's what I'll do -- thanks ever so much! :) At least I have a Plan B, if needed. So Garritan didnt *really* mean that one HAD to have an ASIO compatible sound card? A driver from asio4all isn't a "sound card," and Garritan says "sound card." Why do you think the company doesn't mean the "sound card"? I'm curious. I'm going to do as you suggest, because it makes sense to not purchase something if I might not need it, but what's your reasoning?

[electone2007]

Bgranat,

Garritan just wants you to have the best experience possible when playing the Steinway live, hence, the advice for a good sound card. Older onboard audio interfaces were inferior to the newer ones, as per my experience. The older ones were very noisy (hiss, and other artifacts like when moving your mouse a noise is emitted through the audio). However, my experience with newer onboard audio interfaces is that they are acceptably quieter. That is why I think you should try this approach first. Furthermore, even with a high end sound card, if you don't have a good amp and monitor speakers, you won't get the full benefit. Even if you have the most expensive sound card and you connect it to cheap speakers, it will defeat the purpose.

For rendering the Steinway to an audio file from notation software, you don't even need a soundcard, heck not even the onboard Realtek. It will still render and give you an audio file. But then you can't listen to the output so that's why an audio interface is needed.

By the way, don't get confused over terms like "sound card" and onboard audio". They are all called "audio interfaces" and mean the same.

ASIO is needed to decrease latency with all kinds of audio interface, whether it be a "sound card" or onboard audio. You don't even need ASIO at all just for rendering from notation to audio. It will render just fine even without ASIO. However, when playing live and monitoring playback in realtime (so that you can adjust levels, effects, etc on the fly) ASIO is indispensable.

Hope this helps.

Jun

[bgranat]

Bgranat,

Garritan just wants you to have the best experience possible when playing the Steinway live, hence, the advice for a good sound card. Older onboard audio interfaces were inferior to the newer ones, as per my experience. The older ones were very noisy (hiss, and other artifacts like when moving your mouse a noise is emitted through the audio). However, my experience with newer onboard audio interfaces is that they are acceptably quieter. That is why I think you should try this approach first. Furthermore, even with a high end sound card, if you don't have a good amp and monitor speakers, you won't get the full benefit. Even if you have the most expensive sound card and you connect it to cheap speakers, it will defeat the purpose.

For rendering the Steinway to an audio file from notation software, you don't even need a soundcard, heck not even the onboard Realtek. It will still render and give you an audio file. But then you can't listen to the output so that's why an audio interface is needed.

By the way, don't get confused over terms like "sound card" and onboard audio". They are all called "audio interfaces" and mean the same.

ASIO is needed to decrease latency with all kinds of audio interface, whether it be a "sound card" or onboard audio.

Hope this helps.

Jun

Yes, you and others have been very helpful. Thank you!

I have Yamaha speakers that are quite good. I don't know much about them. I've had them for about 10 years and they're wonderful for all kinds of music. The sample Garritan files sounded superb. I hope I get that sound on my files. For years I've been suffering with the MIDI sounds. OK. The stereo system says Yamaha Natural Sound Stereo Receiver RX-E100. It was great 10 years ago and it's still great. I have tuner, CD, Aux, and MD. I use Aux for computer output. I don't know what MD is -- probably mini-disc. These speakers sound great to me....

[Michael_uk]

Edit: Sorry, I meant to address Michael, not Raymond.

Michael,

I have to respectfully say, you are just confusing bgranat. Please read our (PT and electone2007) posts in full before responding. There will definitely be a difference when recording audio, but not that much when playing back audio, and no difference at all when just rendering notated MIDI to audio files.

Bgranat,

You should install asio4all to decrease latency with your onboard audio.


Jun
Confusing bgranat? Please, give him a little more credit than that. With respect, if there is any confusion then it's coming rather more from yourself. I have read all posts clearly and in full. I would suggest you re-read my clear and to the point post which cannot possibly confuse as it is easily understood and correct and reflects accurately the recommendations for Garritan products.

[electone2007]

Michael,

I said in my post: "When converting notated music to audio, the soundcard hardly has a role. The quality of resulting audio will be the same whether you have a high end soundcard or just the onboard audio."

You quoted my post along with P.T.'s post.

Then you replied "I disagree."

Are you saying I'm not telling the truth?

Or is it P.T.'s post that you disagree with. But then, why quote my post too?

[Michael_uk]

Electone 2007,

Since when is saying 'I disagree' mean 'you are not telling the truth'? 'I disagree' means just that. I have never suggested nor so much as hinted that you are not telling the truth.



The quality of resulting audio will be the same whether you have a high end soundcard or just the onboard audio."


I took this to mean playback through a high end audio interface or onboard audio. If this is not what you meant and you accept that high-end audio offers better playback than on-board audio then it would seem we are in agreement and all is well. )(~

If you disagree then we can agree to disagree amicably without so much as an atom of suggesting that anyone is not telling the truth. It's just expressing opinions and nothing more should be read into this.

I hope we can move on now and get back to topic as this little excursion has travelled far enough.

I look forward to contributing to more threads with you. :)

[P.T.]

The possible differences in playback quality, while they exist, will be much smaller than the difference in sound you would get from different monitors.

The sound that you hear is mostly a matter of the speakers.
Listen to different speakers and the differences in sound are stiking.
Listen to different soundcards and most people will have to struggle to hear any difference.

That is why I don't consider the soundcard to be that important unless there are latency problems.

If the wave of your finished work that was produced was affected by the soundcard then I would consider it more important. But the soundcard has no direct bearing on the wave, except as it affecs monitoring and as I have said, the soundcard is a minor consideration there when compared to the wide differences in speaker sound.

[electone2007]

Michael,

The complete quote reads: " "When converting notated music to audio, the soundcard hardly has a role. The quality of resulting audio will be the same whether you have a high end soundcard or just the onboard audio." (Stating a fact and not an opinion. Disagreeing with a fact means the fact presented is not true, or that the one stating it doesn't know what he's talking about.)

It is clear that I am talking only about rendering to audio in this quote.

I see that you are talking about playback and recording in your response to that quote. But I am not talking about playback and recording. That's why I said that there is confusion and suggested that you read the post in full.

I am sorry to belabor this but I just want to clarify to the OP and also other readers of the topic that I do not post anything which isn't true. You apparently disagreed to the fact (thereby making it appear false) that when rendering MIDI to audio, the process does not involve the audio interface.

It was not intentional, you were just confused.

Peace.

Jun

[bgranat]

Michael,

The complete quote reads: " "When converting notated music to audio, the soundcard hardly has a role. The quality of resulting audio will be the same whether you have a high end soundcard or just the onboard audio." (Stating a fact and not an opinion. Disagreeing with a fact means the fact presented is not true, or that the one stating it doesn't know what he's talking about.)

It is clear that I am talking only about rendering to audio in this quote.

I see that you are talking about playback and recording in your response to that quote. But I am not talking about playback and recording. That's why I said that there is confusion and suggested that you read the post in full.

I am sorry to belabor this but I just want to clarify to the OP and also other readers of the topic that I do not post anything which isn't true. You apparently disagreed to the fact (thereby making it appear false) that when rendering MIDI to audio, the process does not involve the audio interface.

It was not intentional, you were just confused.

Peace.

Jun

OK, what I am getting out of all this (and I am a "she") is that (1) MIDI signals transformed into audio ought to sound fantastic on my system regardless of the soundcard. Were I recording audio itself, however, that would not be the case, and (2) the problem I might have with the onboard soundcard is latency.

That latency could be a deal-breaker if it makes the notation process distracting, which I think it will. But I'll see. I don't know why the keyboard switches over to the speakers, anyway. Maybe there's a setting I can find in the software to change that and have the piano give me the output. I don't need to hear my real-time composing in Steinway.

I've ordered the computer, the Steinway software, and the game is ON. Thanks to you all.

[Michael_uk]

.... (and I am a "she")


Hello bgranat,

Please accept my apologies, I shouldn't have assumed.

Actually, when I was typing I did pause and consider the pronoun. I should have worded it differently for which I apologise.

I shall be more careful now. :)

[bgranat]

Hello bgranat,

Please accept my apologies, I shouldn't have assumed.

Actually, when I was typing I did pause and consider the pronoun. I should have worded it differently for which I apologise.

I shall be more careful now. :)

No problem, Michael! And certainly no need to apologize. I'm Bonnie, and I guess I'll think about a different user name that doesn't cause confusion.

[Michael_uk]

No problem, Michael! And certainly no need to apologize. I'm Bonnie, and I guess I'll think about a different user name that doesn't cause confusion.
Well hello Bonnie and thanks for that.

Looking forward to more of your posts in our forums. :)

[bgranat]

Well hello Bonnie and thanks for that.

Looking forward to more of your posts in our forums. :)
Thanks, Michael. I guess I'll post if I have a problem I or my consultant can't solve, and maybe if I produce something I like and want opinions on. Maybe my stuff will sound as bad on the Steinway as it does with the MIDI piano. <yuk, yuk> I'm very excited, and am really hoping that I will get the same sound I hear on the Garritan page when I play the clips. I'm still blown away by what I heard. I have never heard any recording of any kind of piano that sounded as good. No CD, no LP, ever produced a piano that sounds like that.....

Bonnie

[Michael_uk]

Thanks, Michael. I guess I'll post if I have a problem I or my consultant can't solve, and maybe if I produce something I like and want opinions on. Maybe my stuff will sound as bad on the Steinway as it does with the MIDI piano. <yuk, yuk> I'm very excited, and am really hoping that I will get the same sound I hear on the Garritan page when I play the clips. I'm still blown away by what I heard. I have never heard any recording of any kind of piano that sounded as good. No CD, no LP, ever produced a piano that sounds like that.....

BonnieThat's great.

Well there's also the 'Listening Room' and the Garritan Christmas CDs which feature just about all of the Garritan libraries.

If you want to take a listen just try a search for Garritan Christmas and dive in; there are 5 volumes so far. ;)

[bgranat]

As I expected after my research, the system I bought is perfect. All's well here. I'm getting my feet wet with Garritan. Thanks to all for your kind help.

[Michael_uk]

As I expected after my research, the system I bought is perfect. All's well here. I'm getting my feet wet with Garritan. Thanks to all for your kind help.
Hello Bonnie,

That is good news. I know you'll enjoy using these excellent tools. :)