Listening exercise containing electronic organ

[nicholash]

Hi,

Following on from my pipe organ listening exercise, here we have one featuring an electronic organ.

The file is a 1.7 MB 128 kbps encoded mp3: http://www.btinternet.com/~veridical.sounds/electorg1.mp3 (\"http://www.btinternet.com/~veridical.sounds/electorg1.mp3\")

The question is what is being used for the lead trombone sound that the organist is playing?

Is it a sampled, real, physical modeled or re-synthesised instrument, or what else?

Please don\'t be afraid to have a go and respond.

Best regards
Nicholas

[Chadwick]

As far as I\'m concerned, there\'s nothing in that trom performance to indicate that it is sampled, and there\'s plenty of expression which suggests that it\'s the real McCoy.

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chadwick:
As far as I\'m concerned, there\'s nothing in that trom performance to indicate that it is sampled, and there\'s plenty of expression which suggests that it\'s the real McCoy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Chadwick,

Thanks very much for being the first to respond. Until I get some more responses, I won\'t yet reveal whether you are right or wrong. It is clear that you don\'t think the lead trombone sound that the organist is playing is sampled, especially given the amount of expression. Is it just the amount of expression that makes you think it is not sampled, or is there any other aspect of the sound or performance? Also, please tell me what you think precludes it from being, say, physical modeled and controlled via a wind controller?

Best regards
Nicholas
p.s. For those who don\'t want to download the 1.7 MB excerpt, I\'ve also added a much shorter .25 MB 128 kbps mp3 that features a lead trumpet sound with the electronic organ. Same question applies, i.e. Is the organist playing that lead trumpet performance using a sampled, real, physical modeled or re-synthesised instrument, or what else? The small file is: http://www.btinternet.com/~veridical.sounds/electorg2.mp3 (\"http://www.btinternet.com/~veridical.sounds/electorg2.mp3\")

[mschiff]

Well, I\'ve been wrong before, but I\'ve got to go with a real trombone player on this one. I heard some notes that were slightly out of tune as though the player missed the position on that note, and a couple of \"burbled\" notes where there was a slip of the lip. If it\'s not real, it is the best job of synthesization of a trombone I\'ve ever heard (and I\'m a trombone player).

-- Martin

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mschiff:
Well, I\'ve been wrong before, but I\'ve got to go with a real trombone player on this one. I heard some notes that were slightly out of tune as though the player missed the position on that note, and a couple of \"burbled\" notes where there was a slip of the lip. If it\'s not real, it is the best job of synthesization of a trombone I\'ve ever heard (and I\'m a trombone player).

-- Martin<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks very much Martin.
Do you think, because a lot of sampled brass is almost too \'perfect\' and in-tune, that actually compromises \'realism\' since (as Chadwick might put it!) it foregoes the hallmarks of human beings.

I myself, prefer \'human sounding\' performances, even if it means a few \"burbled\" notes. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Best regards
Nicholas

[mschiff]

Nicholash,

I hadn\'t really thought about the issue of mistakes and intonation being an issue until this exercise, but I guess it is.

Maybe that\'s why I leave some of my mistakes in place in my songs [grin].

-- Martin

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mschiff:
Nicholash,

I hadn\'t really thought about the issue of mistakes and intonation being an issue until this exercise, but I guess it is.

Maybe that\'s why I leave some of my mistakes in place in my songs [grin].

-- Martin<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Martin,

You too?! I was beginning to think that I was the only one that leaves mistakes in my music http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif Not only does it help perceived \'realism\', but people seem much less jealous of it as well! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Best regards
Nicholas

[Doug Marshall]

Nicholas, I\'ll go with a real trombone on this one. The other brass is obviously fake and being played in an \"organlike\" manner and if this is live playing I\'d say the organist is too busy to put in the pitch bend (and misbend) detail that\'s present in the \'bone part unless perhaps the whole remainder were a sequence. Watch me be wrong! - Doug

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Marshall:
Nicholas, I\'ll go with a real trombone on this one. The other brass is obviously fake and being played in an \"organlike\" manner and if this is live playing I\'d say the organist is too busy to put in the pitch bend (and misbend) detail that\'s present in the \'bone part unless perhaps the whole remainder were a sequence. Watch me be wrong! - Doug<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Doug,
Thanks very much for having a go.
You are correct about the whole remainder being a sequence. The organist has his hands (and mouth) full just producing the lead trombone performance. Do you think it can only be a real trombone or do you think it could be a physical modeled instrument played via a wind controller?

Best regards
Nicholas
p.s. Might you be kind enough to get the ball rolling with my \"Fun Listening Exercise\" because nobody has responded to that one as yet?

[Doug Marshall]

Hi Nicholas,

I\'m afraid I lack adequate familiarity with the physical modeling approach to answer your question. I\'ll venture that physical modeling might sound as convincing as the real thing in the hands of a true artist provided the listener hears them both through speakers (in other words, recorded). But in a live situation, particularly close up, I think you\'d always be able to discern some difference. - Doug

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Marshall:
Hi Nicholas,

I\'m afraid I lack adequate familiarity with the physical modeling approach to answer your question. I\'ll venture that physical modeling might sound as convincing as the real thing in the hands of a true artist provided the listener hears them both through speakers (in other words, recorded). But in a live situation, particularly close up, I think you\'d always be able to discern some difference. - Doug<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Doug,

Thanks for your post. I agree that most real intruments, when reproduced through speakers, can usually be distinguished from the real thing direct. I think this is partly because the directional sound distribution properties of loudspeakers is usually quite different from that of the real instrument.

Do you think that the lead trombone in the excerpt sounded like it was recorded direct or did it sound like a recording of a miked-up (real) instrument reproduced through a loudspeaker?

Best regards
Nicholas

[Doug Marshall]

Nicholas, I\'ll stay with my original answer that the trombone is real although trombone and organ is certainly an unusual performance combination. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif - Doug

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Marshall:
Nicholas, I\'ll stay with my original answer that the trombone is real although trombone and organ is certainly an unusual performance combination. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif - Doug<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Doug.

I agree, one doesn\'t often come across a performance combination of solo trombone and electronic organ!

I\'ll still wait a little while longer before revealing the answers in case I get a few more responses. It\'s a pity that more people haven\'t responded to get more discussion going on the challenges of obtaining convincing sounding lead solo brass instrument performances out of sampling technology.

Best regards
Nicholas

[Z6]

I responded to your \'pipe\' exercise - which I know nothing about - so I\'ll have a go here (I know as much about the trombone as I do about pipe organs).

Firstly, unless someone actually asked me to listen carefully, I wouldn\'t dream the trombone could be anything other than \'real\'.

I would say though (on a pair of $6 headphones, at work) that there were a couple of notes around 39s-44s that sounded strange. Like the attack went awol for a second (the player probably turned his head or something, I don\'t know). But if this is physically modeled, then it is stunning. Certainly if it\'s not real, there had to be breath involved. I\'ve heard some pretty cool sax emulations on the VL-1, so it\'s not beyond the realms of possibility.

(The truth is, I want to say \'not real\' but when it turns out to be real I will feel so stupid.) And it sounds so \'real\' that it is dumb to say it\'s not.

You are a torturer!

[This message has been edited by Z6 (edited 09-20-2001).]

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Z6:
I responded to your \'pipe\' exercise - which I know nothing about - so I\'ll have a go here (I know as much about the trombone as I do about pipe organs).

Firstly, unless someone actually asked me to listen carefully, I wouldn\'t dream the trombone could be anything other than \'real\'.

I would say though (on a pair of $6 headphones, at work) that there were a couple of notes around 39s-44s that sounded strange. Like the attack went awol for a second (the player probably turned his head or something, I don\'t know). But if this is physically modeled, then it is stunning. Certainly if it\'s not real, there had to be breath involved. I\'ve heard some pretty cool sax emulations on the VL-1, so it\'s not beyond the realms of possibility.

(The truth is, I want to say \'not real\' but when it turns out to be real I will feel so stupid.) And it sounds so \'real\' that it is dumb to say it\'s not.

You are a torturer!

[This message has been edited by Z6 (edited 09-20-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Z6.

To end this \'torture\', I will now reveal the answers:

You are all correct! On each of the two excerpts, the organist is playing a real brass instrument (which was not miked-up/amplified).

Best regards
Nicholas
p.s. I will shortly remove the mp3s for this exercise from my web space.