*** Please Read ***

[donnie]

After a long hard day of reflection I think it\'s important to make a few things known for Americans in general.

Number one I trully hope that the American public will not generalize middle eastern people in general as \"bad guys\". Todays attack was clearly the result of radicals with no morals.

Number two it has to be understandable with the reactions of people from this country. For example, Damon may have lost a loved one. To me, any reaction has to be understood and forgiven.

Finally, expression, whether on a internet forum or talking to friend on the phone is a form of expression and part of the healing process. Please let this process happen naturally and remember that everyone handles tragedies differently. I know that my life will forever be changed by todays events. I already look at my 4 month old son in a completely different way.

I just pray that the people behind this act will be brought to justice.

Donnie

[Michiel Post]

Donnie, I firmly believe that most people from all over the world are as much in a shock as I am. We are very ...very upset.
The thoughts and prayers of everyone here in my country (the Netherlands) are with the victims, their families, the
survivors, and all those people who have been affected by this cataclysmic event.
I strongly hope that the world will support the US president to find and punish however is responsible for the death of so many innocent US civilians.
Michiel

[OH]

Dear Donnie & all!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Donnie. I feel with everybody involved. My girl-friend shared a long time of her life with people of New York. She has a flight to NY at the end of September and wanted to go on top of those towers the first time in her life. I could have lost her already... on the other hand my mom is Palistine, but she is in no way happy about what happened. She doesn\'t support ANY killing in the middle-east either. Their family had to flee because of what happened down in the middle-east a long time ago and what happens down there all the time, shocks the people on a similar scale (as it is close to them) but doesn\'t make them all killers.
Again my sympathy to all involved.

regards

Harry


------------------
O.H.

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ryounger:
I understand and agree that we should not judge the people who came or come from the middle east as the \"bad guys\"

But I must say that if a country commits such an act of war against our country, then it is our duty to strike back with extreme force. We should not have a postwar \"give peace a chance\" attitude about this. It is wrong to be an aggressor, but when people commit such a crime against humanity, then they should know what aggression is all about. These countries have been pushing us around for over 20 years now. It is time to fight back. The only thing that some people know is violence.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I expect that a lot of the people in the countries of the middle east are just as appauled as we are about the recent acts of terrorism. As has become obvious by now, it upsets me when all the people of a country are indiscriminately lumped together as if they all have the same views and prejudices. We all want justice to be done, but why do you think this should be achieved at the cost of many innocent lives?

Nicholas

[ryounger]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nicholash:
I expect that a lot of the people in the countries of the middle east are just as appalled as we are about the recent acts of terrorism. As has become obvious by now, it upsets me when all the people of a country are indiscriminately lumped together as if they all have the same views and prejudices. We all want justice to be done, but why do you think this should be achieved at the cost of many innocent lives?

Nicholas

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To answer the first part of your statement...
I\'m sure that not all of the people of Japan agreed with the decision of bombing Pearl Harbor, yet war was the only choice that could be made. The terrorist attacks that were made yesterday were most certainly an act of war.

The brutal truth is that sometimes innocent lives have to be lost in order to save many more. If we just went after the people that were intimately responsible for the bombings, than that is the best guarantee that someone else will want revenge. These rogue nations need to understand that terrorism is something that should not be tolerated. If we strike with harsh force, then the nations who harbor these criminals will think twice before giving them asylum.

Russ

[This message has been edited by ryounger (edited 09-12-2001).]

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ryounger:
To answer the first part of your statement...
I\'m sure that not all of the people of Japan agreed with the decision of bombing Pearl Harbor, yet war was the only choice that could be made. The terrorist attacks that were made yesterday were most certainly an act of war.

The brutal truth is that sometimes innocent lives have to be lost in order to save many more. If we just went after the people that were intimately responsible for the bombings, than that is the best guarantee that someone else will want revenge. These rogue nations need to understand that terrorism is something that should not be tolerated. If we strike with harsh force, then the nations who harbor these criminals will think twice before giving them asylum.

Russ

[This message has been edited by ryounger (edited 09-12-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hi Russ,

Hasn\'t this been done before in fairly recent history. For example, the 1991 Gulf War: The Iraqi military forces and Saddam Hussein certainly got some retaliation from the USA and allies, but IMHO it seems that Saddam and his allies are even more bent on revenge now. They probably now have nuclear, chemical and germ warfare weapons and are even more likely to think that they have more of an \'excuse\' to use them than before. At this rate, I sincerely hope we are not on the verge of World War III.

Nicholas
p.s. It has been such a sad and anger-making last couple of days. Lets hope that we try to avoid more atrocities. To paraphrase what Franz said: There are not sufficient words to express our sympathy and sorrow. To quote what Ryan said on the Sonic Control forum: \"It is still quite unbelievable that something like this has happened. Having relatives and friends in the area that I haven\'t heard from makes it worse for me, as I\'m sure it does for many others. Absolutely horrible, but I think it is essential for people to remain positive about the whole situation (or as positive as they can be with a situation like this).\"

[Jamieh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Hasn\'t this been done before in fairly recent history. For example, the 1991 Gulf War: The Iraqi military forces and Saddam Hussein certainly got some retaliation from the USA and allies, but IMHO it seems that Saddam and his allies are even more bent on revenge now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is why the US will probably respond with a force that will make the Iraqi conflict look like a training exercise. I wouldn\'t be surprised if US military forces occupy at least parts of the Middle East for a long time after this.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 09-12-2001).]

[Arush]

ok,
i am used to seeing women or soldiers dead every day for now, and they are continuing to do so even after the shock wave they deliverd to usa , and just for u to know these guyz are deleberatly programming thier people to suicide all the time, they train them to hate us, they concentrate on the one and only object : to make the world islami, its in thier religion.

so why ok? because now maybe u people will understand israel(i hope that NOW is the time) and will not condem us every time we strike those lousy countr attacks on them, and i say they are lousy because they get a warning every time to evacuate so our choppers wont kill any one just destroy the building...

anyway, ok...maybe.

[RICARDO BOTTICELLI]

i think i\'m the only brazilian member in this forum so i would like to wish my condolent for all americans in my name and my country.
i love america i lived in boston last year.my brother in law is american and he lost friends in wtc.i\'m a flight attandant i have some friends in united airlines and for sure i can feel the pain .now is the time to pray a lot and hunt this monsters .let the other things for the \"pros\"
God shine the presindent bush mind and bless america.

[Synth2k]

I completely agree with everything you\'ve said, Donnie. As I mentioned in a reply to Damon\'s thread, I think in order for those who might have lost loved ones to retain their sanity, we have to think positive thoughts and hope for the best in such an awful situation. I still haven\'t heard from my cousin who is in the area, nor numerous friends so I too am really finding this whole thing disconcerting.

Ryan.

------------------
Sonic Control
www..com (\"http://www..com\")
Giga Users Network at
www..com/gigasampler/ (\"http://www..com/gigasampler/\")

[lanesp]

No. It has not been done in recent history. The biggest mistake concerning the Gulf War was that the US did not retaliate. We used enough force to liberate Kuwait and left. Schwartzkoff (sp?) had the right idea but was not allowed to finish the job. If Iraq is stronger now, it is due to this error. This mistake should not happen again.

This is not the time for court justice. These were not criminal acts. These were terroristic acts of war and should be handled as such. Retribution for such evil should be so harsh as to inflict fear in the most evil of minds. Without an extreme response, it will happen again. Retaliation should be an impossibility.

I am a Christian. And as such I will forgive. But, I will not forget. My heart can truly forgive the poor misguided souls who have devised and carried out this act of terrorism. But, I will not forget. An impression must be left on the face of this earth that such terrorists will not forget. To tolerate these events is to condone them.

This tragedy can be handled in no other way. As Americans, our freedom is on the line. It has been temporarily suspended. Our forefathers fought to gain it and we must fight to keep it. There is nothing anti Christian about this. I know forgiveness. I know tolerance. I know my Lord. My faith is not shaken by this but strengthened. I will forgive the person but I will fight the evil.

We are not the aggressors. We are not the evil. We are the victims. We must not let our rights for which so much blood has been shed be stripped away. It must be shown to the world that this will not be tolerated. Those responsible and those supporting or harboring must be shown that one attack was never worth the punishment.

[ryounger]

I understand and agree that we should not judge the people who came or come from the middle east as the \"bad guys\"

But I must say that if a country commits such an act of war against our country, then it is our duty to strike back with extreme force. We should not have a postwar \"give peace a chance\" attitude about this. It is wrong to be an aggressor, but when people commit such a crime against humanity, then they should know what aggression is all about. These countries have been pushing us around for over 20 years now. It is time to fight back. The only thing that some people know is violence.

[mschiff]

Arush,

There were plenty of people here who can feel your pain even before this heinous act. However, you can bet that there are many more now. My brother and his family live in Jerusalem, and I fear for them every day.

The US people know that Israel is a true friend, and ally.

The world is not the same place it was a few days ago.

-- Martin

-- Martin

[OH]

>so why ok? because now maybe u people will understand israel(i hope that NOW is the time) and will not condem us every time we strike those lousy countr attacks on them, and i say they are lousy because they get a warning every time to evacuate so our choppers wont kill any one just destroy the building...<

Sorry Arush, but I need to respond. I don\'t want to go back to the time Israelis started taking land of Arabs due to decisions of the world... Do you know what it feels like to be dealt as a criminal although one isn\'t? That happened to my mother just because she is Arab. Do you know what it feels like to know that Israelis keep weapons at home for \"individual protection\"? I don\'t believe in what you say: That the Arabs always know about the attacks your country is doing against them. I believe it as less as I believe the truth about the Palestine people celebrating a victory in the street. We know from the Iraque war that propaganda brought many lies to the world. And America as well as Israel isn\'t one of the most peaceful countries in the world as it was presented to us in the past. Sorry to all, but it isn\'t. The truth we learn years later but then it is too late. And what those big countries do is always accepted more calmly, mentioned nearly never. But I stop now. I think we should not think about bloody revenge. In the Iraque war it hit not the true evil but real people like you and me. They have fears and not every one of them is trained as a religious radical. You in Israel have religious radicals as well. The more the peace process seemed possible, the less was the support of those radicals in both countries.

But I don\'t know if it is right to speak about all this at the moment. What happened is shocking and very sad. But what happens everywhere else in the world is also. I hope we don\'t forget this...

------------------
O.H.

[paynterr]

This isn\'t really the place for all this, but since everyone else is placing their views here, why not join in.
Time for some perspective.
The act the other day is just another example of the pathetic way the human race behaves as a whole. We are all to blame.
This planet is billions of years old, our pathetic race of humans has existed on this planet for a fraction of that.
I ask you these questions, targetting everyone:
o Why do the muslims and jews in the middle east somehow believe that a piece of land that was probably under the earth\'s mantle and somewhere near the north pole once, covered in dinosaurs around 70 million years ago, somehow belongs to them? Pathetic.
o Why does America think it is the \'best\' country in the world with MASSIVE crime rates, huge pollution problems, vast differences between rich and poor and enormous social and racial problems? Pathetic.
o Why does Britain (my country) still have a load of thugs that think \"Britania still rules the waves\" who go around thumping other europeans at soccer matches. Why do some brits still think that the British Empire still exists. Pathetic.
o Why do catholics and protestants fight with each other in Ireland, again over STUPID terratorial differences and religion. Again - pathetic...
I could go on...
The point is this... the only way to stop all this is to evolve away from religion and the belief that we all somehow need to belong to a different tribe to feel \'part of something\'.
We can\'t go on devolving the way we are... America must understand that what it sees as \'it\'s freedom\' is seen by others as evil. I agree that the attoricites of tuesday truly were awful, but I also believe that more damage has been done by such companies as Nike and McDonalds, what with their SE Asian slave labour and deforestation of the Amazon (not to mention McDonald\'s sponsoship of NORAD).
We are talking differences here that will never go away.
You are NEVER going to quell something that is based around a religion that believes that you can die for your religion and go to heaven.
UNLESS - you start to LISTEN to these people, try to understand why and what they believe and try to forge some respect between the two of you. THAT is the only way. Using a large arsenal of weapons will not achieve anything, except long-term resentment.
Just sit in a room together, listen to each other, talk to each other, apologise to each and just be f\'ing nice for a change. I sound like a hippy, but maybe that is the only way forward, not Star Wars and large military budgets...
Peace - not pieces...

[This message has been edited by paynterr (edited 09-13-2001).]

[SCARBEE]

I am much worried about the Bush speak: \"A monumental war between Good and Evil\"

If Pakistan is involved - they are one of only 3 nations that recognizes the Talaban regime, we are up agains nuclear weapons.

Osama Ben Laden claims to have Nuclear weapons, chemical and bacteriological weapons. And he will use it. If the muslim is attacked in Afganistan, what will Iran, Irak do? What if NATO gets caught in a two front war..

The russian had to give up fighting in Afganistan, so will NATO be more succesfull?

We are close to a 3 world war and plaýing with fire.

It is very hard to work with music today...
I am very worried.

Scarbee

[SCARBEE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by paynterr:
but I also believe that more damage has been done by such companies as Nike and McDonalds

You are not serious, right?

I do understand your \"hippie\" attitude and I hate war, terror and violence more than anything else, but think about this (I always get this argument thrown in my face by older people and friends if I get too pacifistic in my views of war:
What if USA and the allied have had the same \"hippie-thoughts\" about Hitler\'s regime in 1939: \"War is not the solution - let\'s talk to Hitler and solve this peacefully!\" My country Denmark would have been a -land today...

Don\'t you think that sometimes there are regimes that are so evil, you can not solve this entirely peacefully? But I hope this crisis can be solved without hurting innocent people at all. I agree that we have to re-consider the the way the western world act in the long term to avoid this level of hatred, but right now we might have an acute situation, that has to do with our way of living and the survival of out civilazation.

I understand if the world leaders are scared of the Taliban regime: the burn all art; music, books paintings - evn old Buddhas. The Leaders in Kabul give a damn about the world opinion and they support a man that has just declared USA holy war. (see cnn.com)

[This message has been edited by SCARBEE (edited 09-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by SCARBEE (edited 09-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by SCARBEE (edited 09-13-2001).]

[Chadwick]

So.

NATO has confirmed that its members will back the US in whatever action it takes against the aggressors.

That\'s 19 world nations

Bush has clearly said that the US will not only strike against the terrorists who are directly responsible, but that whatever nation harbours them will receive the same treatment.

Assuming that Bin Laden is responsible, and he\'s in Afghanistan, that pits the 19 NATO countries solidly against several Arab nations.

Sounds a lot like a world war to me...

There are some religions which regard this situation that we are facing as fulfillment of a prophecy.

These prophecies talk in terms of the Apocalypse.

[SCARBEE]

Hi Chadwick,

Yes it is disturbing news. The consequences of a this war is huge: How will the middle east react? Russia, China?

Bad news. I hope Bush will act with extreme
caution.

I have always believed in \"Apocolypse\" in 1999 - I hoped that it was \"canceled\" since nothing happened. I hate to think that it was just delayed.

It is very strange: In most european countries we have no death penalty - even to child killers. Now we are about to give death-sentence to a lot of enemy civillians and soldiers on both sides that are forced to fight for their countries - I sometimes find this confusing...

I will pray to day!

[SCARBEE]

I just had a scary thought: What if this first attack on NYC/Washington is a \"trap\"? Maybe Ben Laden wants NATO to go to Afganistan - and then nuke the entire NATO army there? He could be that cynical...

[nicholash]

I don\'t want World War III. We are likely to all be losers. The world has enough nuclear, chemical and germ warfare weapons to destroy all of us many times over. Surely we don\'t want this to happen? I am concerned by \'suicide bombers\' because perhaps some of them don\'t care about the world having any remaining survivors after their destructive acts.

Nicholas

[OH]

Dear Scarbee!

\"What if USA and the allied have had the same \"hippie-thoughts\" about Hitler\'s regime in 1939: \"War is not the solution - let\'s talk to Hitler and solve this peacefully!\" My country Denmark would have been a -land today...\"

I am from Germany, which alway puts one into a difficult position to argue from. Actually they all should have reacted a lot earlier. Much that happened was due to their too late reaction and much earlier: to what many people of Germany felt after what was done to them after World War I. Now people will say: \"Yes you say it. We have to act immediately.\" But acting immediately can\'t involve attacking a nation without further thoughts. Attacking a nation becaue of Terrorists there, leaving the country afterwards, after a lot of damage was done to the population as well, which never wanted all this, leaving them alone (as with Iraque) etc. is ALL WRONG. It just leads to further hate, hate, hate and will never solve the problem. And one thing, if it is wrong positioned here or not, we\'ve still got to consider: Mr. Bin Laden was trained by the CIA against Russia (as recently stated in the news). But no further politic views on this: It is a tragedy. Nothing will change this.


------------------
O.H.

[nicholash]

Hi,

I read the following on another (sampling related!) mailing list. Please tell me if their statements are true or not:

\"The Reagan Administration funded and trained Noriega in Panama because we feared rebellion in South America.
The Reagan Administration funded and trained Saddam Hussein because we feared the Iranians.
The Reagan Administration funded and trained various factions in Afganistan including the ones who currently harbor Bin Laden because we feared the Russians.\"

[paynterr]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OH:
Dear Scarbee!

\"What if USA and the allied have had the same \"hippie-thoughts\" about Hitler\'s regime in 1939: \"War is not the solution - let\'s talk to Hitler and solve this peacefully!\" My country Denmark would have been a -land today...\"

I am from Germany, which alway puts one into a difficult position to argue from. Actually they all should have reacted a lot earlier. Much that happened was due to their too late reaction and much earlier: to what many people of Germany felt after what was done to them after World War I. Now people will say: \"Yes you say it. We have to act immediately.\" But acting immediately can\'t involve attacking a nation without further thoughts. Attacking a nation becaue of Terrorists there, leaving the country afterwards, after a lot of damage was done to the population as well, which never wanted all this, leaving them alone (as with Iraque) etc. is ALL WRONG. It just leads to further hate, hate, hate and will never solve the problem. And one thing, if it is wrong positioned here or not, we\'ve still got to consider: Mr. Bin Laden was trained by the CIA against Russia (as recently stated in the news). But no further politic views on this: It is a tragedy. Nothing will change this.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quite right!
A number of people don\'t know the real reason behind why Germany evolved into the Hitler regime... it was exactly the allies appalling treatment of Germany post the treaty of Versailles that caused hyper-inflation, resentment, racism and the rise of the national socialists in Germany. It is arguable that had the allies actually said at the end of WWI - \"ok - we\'ve all been stupid twats - let\'s now resolve our issues\" and carried on, then the s may not have occurred. The s fed off the fear and hatred and oppression being placed on the germany of the 1920s by Britain, America and Russia... THEY were very much to do with the cause... it\'s all very well asserting your beliefs on someone else... but the people you are asserting them on have different values and they come across in a different way... you love the music you write... if I was to tell you it was cr*p, wasn\'t played in a key I liked and you were stupid for even writing it, you wouldn\'t like me too much!
The key is to recognise the signs early on and deal with them before they get out of hand. Don\'t ask me for any more answers however, since I don\'t have them... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[gigaDiga]

Nicolash... you asked

Here is what the Glasgow Herald had to say about it...

\"IF the attacks on America have
their source in the Islamic world, who can really be surprised? Two days earlier, eight people were
killed in southern Iraq when British and American planes bombed civilian areas. To my knowledge,
not a word appeared in the mainstream media in Britain. An estimated 200,000 Iraqis, according to
the Health Education Trust in London, died during and in the immediate aftermath of the slaughter
known as the Gulf War. This was never news that touched public consciousness in the west. At
least a million civilians, half of them children, have since died in Iraq as a result of a medieval
embargo imposed by the United States and Britain. In Pakistan and Afghanistan, the Mujadeen,
which gave birth to the fanatical Taliban, was largely the creation of the CIA. The terrorist training
camps where Osama bin Laden, now \"America\'s most wanted man\", allegedly planned his attacks,
were built with American money and backing. In Palestine, the enduring illegal occupation by Israel
would have collapsed long ago were it not for US backing. Far from being the terrorists of the world,
the Islamic peoples have been its victims - principally the victims of US fundamentalism, whose
power, in all its forms, military, strategic and economic, is the greatest source of terrorism on earth.
This fact is censored from the Western media, whose \"coverage\" at best minimises the culpability of
imperial powers. Richard Falk, professor of international relations at Princeton, put it this way:
\"Western foreign policy is presented almost exclusively through a self-righteous, one-way legal/moral
screen (with) positive images of Western values and innocence portrayed as threatened, validating a
campaign of unrestricted political violence.\" That Tony Blair, whose government sells lethal weapons
to Israel and has sprayed Iraq and Yugoslavia with cluster bombs and depleted uranium and was the
greatest arms supplier to the genocidists in Indonesia, can be taken seriously when he now speaks
about the \"shame\" of the \"new evil of mass terrorism\" says much about the censorship of our
collective sense of how the world is managed. One of Blair\'s favourite words - \"fatuous\" - comes to
mind. Alas, it is no comfort to the families of thousands of ordinary Americans who have died so
terribly that the perpetrators of their suffering may be the product of Western policies. Did the
American establishment believe that it could bankroll and manipulate events in the Middle East
without cost to itself, or rather its own innocent people? The attacks on Tuesday come at the end of
a long history of betrayal of the Islamic and Arab peoples: the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the
foundation of the state of Israel, four Arab-Israeli wars and 34 years of Israel\'s brutal occupation of an
Arab nation: all, it seems, obliterated within hours by Tuesday\'s acts of awesome cruelty by those
who say they represent the victims of the West\'s intervention in their homelands. \"America, which
has never known modern war, now has her own terrible league table: perhaps as many as 20,000
victims.\" As Robert Fisk points out, in the Middle East, people will grieve the loss of innocent life, but
they will ask if the newspapers and television networks of the west ever devoted a fraction of the
present coverage to the half-a-million dead children of Iraq, and the 17,500 civilians killed in Israel\'s
1982 invasion of Lebanon. The answer is no. There are deeper roots to the atrocities in the US, which
made them almost inevitable. It is not only the rage and grievance in the Middle East and south Asia.
Since the end of the cold war, the US and its sidekicks, principally Britain, have exercised, flaunted,
and abused their wealth and power while the divisions imposed on human beings by them and their
agents have grown as never before. An elite group of less than a billion people now take more than
80 per cent of the world\'s wealth. In defence of this power and privilege, known by the euphemisms
\"free market\" and \"free trade\", the injustices are legion: from the illegal blockade of Cuba, to the
murderous arms trade, dominated by the US, to its trashing of basic environmental decencies, to the
assault on fragile economies by institutions such as the World Trade Organisation that are little more
than agents of the US Treasury and the European central banks, and the demands of the World
Bank and the International Monetary Fund in forcing the poorest nations to repay unrepayable debts;
to a new US \"Vietnam\" in Colombia and the sabotage of peace talks between North and South Korea
(in order to shore up North Korea\'s \"rogue nation\" status). Western terror is part of the recent history
of imperialism, a word that journalists dare not speak or write. The expulsion of the population of
Diego Darcia in the 1960s by the Wilson government received almost no press coverage. Their
homeland is now an American nuclear arms dump and base from which US bombers patrol the
Middle East. In Indonesia, in 1965/6, a million people were killed with the complicity of the US and
British governments: the Americans supplying General Suharto with assassination lists, then ticking
off names as people were killed. \"Getting British companies and the World Bank back in there was
part of the deal\", says Roland Challis, who was the BBC\'s south east Asia correspondent. British
behaviour in Malaya was no different from the American record in Vietnam, for which it proved
inspirational: the withholding of food, villages turned into concentration camps and more than half a
million people forcibly dispossessed. In Vietnam, the dispossession, maiming and poisoning of an
entire nation was apocalyptic, yet diminished in our memory by Hollywood movies and by what
Edward Said rightly calls cultural imperialism. In Operation Phoenix, in Vietnam, the CIA arranged
the homicide of around 50,000 people. As official documents now reveal, this was the model for the
terror in Chile that climaxed with the murder of the democratically elected leader Salvador Allende,
and within 10 years, the crushing of Nicaragua. All of it was lawless. The list is too long for this
piece. Now imperialism is being rehabilitated. American forces currently operate with impunity from
bases in 50 countries. \"Full spectrum dominance\" is Washington\'s clearly stated aim. Read the
documents of the US Space Command, which leaves us in no doubt. In this country, the eager Blair
government has embarked on four violent adventures, in pursuit of \"British interests\" (dressed up as
\"peacekeeping\"), and which have little or no basis in international law: a record matched by no other
British government for half a century. What has this to do with this week\'s atrocities in America? If
you travel among the impoverished majority of humanity, you understand that it has everything to do
with it. People are neither still, nor stupid. They see their independence compromised, their
resources and land and the lives of their children taken away, and their accusing fingers increasingly
point north: to the great enclaves of plunder and privilege. Inevitably, terror breeds terror and more
fanaticism. But how patient the oppressed have been. It is only a few years ago that the Islamic
fundamentalist groups, willing to blow themselves up in Israel and New York, were formed, and only
after Israel and the US had rejected outright the hope of a Palestinian state, and justice for a people
scarred by imperialism.\"

Not my words... if the investigative journalist who wrote this is right then we truly have something to hold our heads low about.

[SCARBEE]

Hi paynteer,

It is true that the -regime was founded on a german people who was humiliated. the officers had always been regarded as the top of society and suddenly they lost much of their privileges. Still this is only part of the \"truth\". Hitler had studied Wagner in many years and was very interested in the \"Holy Grail\" story as it was really at tale about the steps to \"enlightment\". Hitler was fascinated by the Atlantis mythology and wanted to breed a new super-human-race - the Arians based on \"pure blood\". This was also the reason for him being a vegetarian as meat was polluting the blood. he made experimnets on a castle where selected humans (blue eyes, yellow hair, strong body, high IQ) were to breed super children. All un-clean races had to go: Jews, blacks, gypsies, etc. He also got rid of all handicaped. Some races was meant to be slaves - like the polish people. He also studied many religions including the Tibethian Book of death. At some point he was connected to an Austrian man, who was the leading occultist in Europe. Based on his \"Ideas\" Hitler formed his \"Thule-group\" who was all dedicated \"satanist\" and deeply fascinated by old nothern mythologi too. (Vallhalla)It is known that Hitler was completely dependant on his astrologist.
The swastica was also know as \"the broken cross\" - the symbal of anti-crist. Hitler saw himself as anti-crist - a german updated crist,whos 3\'rd reich should stand for 1000 years. He looked at Jesus with despite for his weakness. Hitler also studied many conqueres like Barbarossa, Alexander the Great and Djengis Khan. He was convinced that a great divine state needed much space - lebensraum. This was the reason for his incredible agression. If you read much about WW2 and the KZ-camps and extermination of the jews you will find that the cruelty is so hard to understand. The humiliation and viloence was so. If you then studi the films from the gathering of thousands of \'s in a stadion and wacth the swasticas all over germany hanging from windows, the Hitler jugend, the arcitecture you will find that this was not an ordinary man. Hitler was a religious fanatic with a terrible mission.

It is not always that humiliation and poverty leads to evil leaders: think of Ghandi and Martin Luther King. Some of the finset people who have lived on this earth.

On the contrary one of the most evil persons in history King Phillip 2 of spain was born to inherit most of the world from Carlos the Great. He was too a religious fanatic.

I don\'t know how evil Osama Ben laden is, but the things that I have seen from Afganistan is very bad. It seems like the darkest place on earth right now. Much, much more radical than Irak, Iran, etc.

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gigaDiga:
Nicolash... you asked

Here is what the Glasgow Herald had to say about it...

\"IF the attacks on America have
their source in the Islamic world, who can really be surprised? Two days earlier, eight people were
killed in southern Iraq when British and American planes bombed civilian areas. To my knowledge,
not a word appeared in the mainstream media in Britain. An estimated 200,000 Iraqis, according to
the Health Education Trust in London, died during and in the immediate aftermath of the slaughter
known as the Gulf War. This was never news that touched public consciousness in the west. At
least a million civilians, half of them children, have since died in Iraq as a result of a medieval
embargo imposed by the United States and Britain. In Pakistan and Afghanistan, the Mujadeen,
which gave birth to the fanatical Taliban, was largely the creation of the CIA. The terrorist training
camps where Osama bin Laden, now \"America\'s most wanted man\", allegedly planned his attacks,
were built with American money and backing. In Palestine, the enduring illegal occupation by Israel
would have collapsed long ago were it not for US backing. Far from being the terrorists of the world,
the Islamic peoples have been its victims - principally the victims of US fundamentalism, whose
power, in all its forms, military, strategic and economic, is the greatest source of terrorism on earth.
This fact is censored from the Western media, whose \"coverage\" at best minimises the culpability of
imperial powers. Richard Falk, professor of international relations at Princeton, put it this way:
\"Western foreign policy is presented almost exclusively through a self-righteous, one-way legal/moral
screen (with) positive images of Western values and innocence portrayed as threatened, validating a
campaign of unrestricted political violence.\" That Tony Blair, whose government sells lethal weapons
to Israel and has sprayed Iraq and Yugoslavia with cluster bombs and depleted uranium and was the
greatest arms supplier to the genocidists in Indonesia, can be taken seriously when he now speaks
about the \"shame\" of the \"new evil of mass terrorism\" says much about the censorship of our
collective sense of how the world is managed. One of Blair\'s favourite words - \"fatuous\" - comes to
mind. Alas, it is no comfort to the families of thousands of ordinary Americans who have died so
terribly that the perpetrators of their suffering may be the product of Western policies. Did the
American establishment believe that it could bankroll and manipulate events in the Middle East
without cost to itself, or rather its own innocent people? The attacks on Tuesday come at the end of
a long history of betrayal of the Islamic and Arab peoples: the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the
foundation of the state of Israel, four Arab-Israeli wars and 34 years of Israel\'s brutal occupation of an
Arab nation: all, it seems, obliterated within hours by Tuesday\'s acts of awesome cruelty by those
who say they represent the victims of the West\'s intervention in their homelands. \"America, which
has never known modern war, now has her own terrible league table: perhaps as many as 20,000
victims.\" As Robert Fisk points out, in the Middle East, people will grieve the loss of innocent life, but
they will ask if the newspapers and television networks of the west ever devoted a fraction of the
present coverage to the half-a-million dead children of Iraq, and the 17,500 civilians killed in Israel\'s
1982 invasion of Lebanon. The answer is no. There are deeper roots to the atrocities in the US, which
made them almost inevitable. It is not only the rage and grievance in the Middle East and south Asia.
Since the end of the cold war, the US and its sidekicks, principally Britain, have exercised, flaunted,
and abused their wealth and power while the divisions imposed on human beings by them and their
agents have grown as never before. An elite group of less than a billion people now take more than
80 per cent of the world\'s wealth. In defence of this power and privilege, known by the euphemisms
\"free market\" and \"free trade\", the injustices are legion: from the illegal blockade of Cuba, to the
murderous arms trade, dominated by the US, to its trashing of basic environmental decencies, to the
assault on fragile economies by institutions such as the World Trade Organisation that are little more
than agents of the US Treasury and the European central banks, and the demands of the World
Bank and the International Monetary Fund in forcing the poorest nations to repay unrepayable debts;
to a new US \"Vietnam\" in Colombia and the sabotage of peace talks between North and South Korea
(in order to shore up North Korea\'s \"rogue nation\" status). Western terror is part of the recent history
of imperialism, a word that journalists dare not speak or write. The expulsion of the population of
Diego Darcia in the 1960s by the Wilson government received almost no press coverage. Their
homeland is now an American nuclear arms dump and base from which US bombers patrol the
Middle East. In Indonesia, in 1965/6, a million people were killed with the complicity of the US and
British governments: the Americans supplying General Suharto with assassination lists, then ticking
off names as people were killed. \"Getting British companies and the World Bank back in there was
part of the deal\", says Roland Challis, who was the BBC\'s south east Asia correspondent. British
behaviour in Malaya was no different from the American record in Vietnam, for which it proved
inspirational: the withholding of food, villages turned into concentration camps and more than half a
million people forcibly dispossessed. In Vietnam, the dispossession, maiming and poisoning of an
entire nation was apocalyptic, yet diminished in our memory by Hollywood movies and by what
Edward Said rightly calls cultural imperialism. In Operation Phoenix, in Vietnam, the CIA arranged
the homicide of around 50,000 people. As official documents now reveal, this was the model for the
terror in Chile that climaxed with the murder of the democratically elected leader Salvador Allende,
and within 10 years, the crushing of Nicaragua. All of it was lawless. The list is too long for this
piece. Now imperialism is being rehabilitated. American forces currently operate with impunity from
bases in 50 countries. \"Full spectrum dominance\" is Washington\'s clearly stated aim. Read the
documents of the US Space Command, which leaves us in no doubt. In this country, the eager Blair
government has embarked on four violent adventures, in pursuit of \"British interests\" (dressed up as
\"peacekeeping\"), and which have little or no basis in international law: a record matched by no other
British government for half a century. What has this to do with this week\'s atrocities in America? If
you travel among the impoverished majority of humanity, you understand that it has everything to do
with it. People are neither still, nor stupid. They see their independence compromised, their
resources and land and the lives of their children taken away, and their accusing fingers increasingly
point north: to the great enclaves of plunder and privilege. Inevitably, terror breeds terror and more
fanaticism. But how patient the oppressed have been. It is only a few years ago that the Islamic
fundamentalist groups, willing to blow themselves up in Israel and New York, were formed, and only
after Israel and the US had rejected outright the hope of a Palestinian state, and justice for a people
scarred by imperialism.\"

Not my words... if the investigative journalist who wrote this is right then we truly have something to hold our heads low about.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the posting, gigaDiga.
What an article !
Sobering reading.
How much of it do people here think is accurate?

Nicholas

[Plundrik]

We had an election here in Norway on wedensday, but politics has simply halted after the terrorist attack. Children are writing letters to president Bush all over the countrty to tell him: \"don\'t start a war\".

Did you know that nostradamus has written that world war III will begin \"when the light hits the twin towers\"?

[SCARBEE]

Hi Plundik,

Did you know that nostradamus has written that world war III will begin \"when the light hits the twin towers\"?

Where have you read that?

[SCARBEE]

disregard

[This message has been edited by SCARBEE (edited 09-13-2001).]

[gigaDiga]

I know it\'s tempting to reach for that Nostradamus stuff but I should say that there are lots of made up `Nostradamus` prophecies doing the rounds after the events of the other day. Please be wary of spreading more scare-mongering literature when our focus should be on mourning and asking those vital how and why questions.

Best wishes,

GigaDiga

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gigaDiga:
I know it\'s tempting to reach for that Nostradamus stuff but I should say that there are lots of made up `Nostradamus` prophecies doing the rounds after the events of the other day. Please be wary of spreading more scare-mongering literature when our focus should be on mourning and asking those vital how and why questions.

Best wishes,

GigaDiga<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for pointing this out GigaDiga.

Nicholas

[SCARBEE]

You are right GigaDiga..

[Plundrik]

Yeah, you\'re right Gigadiga. I easily get distractet from the real issue.
I for one think that we already know why all of this has happened. It\'s people that bin Laden (even if he has nothing to do with the WTC terrorism) that lure his people into thinking that you are only just to Allah by fighting Americans (\"fithting Americans is the essence of our religion\"). Muslims are often told to serve Allah only seconds after birth and throughout their whol lives. However, I fear the worst, as people in Afganisthan have alredy started to mobilise a defence against a possible attack from the USA.

[Plundrik]

Yeah, you\'re right Gigadiga. I easily get distracted from the real issue.
I for one think that we already know why all of this has happened. It\'s people that bin Laden (even if he has nothing to do with the WTC terrorism) that lure his people into thinking that you are only just to Allah by fighting Americans (\"fighting Americans is the essence of our religion\"). Muslims are often told to serve Allah only seconds after birth and throughout their whol lives. However, I fear the worst, as people in Afganisthan have alredy started to mobilise a defence against a possible attack from the USA.

[Lucas]

Regarding the Glasgow Herald post:

I am an American and I believe that the information therein is more or less accurate. However, the US people and the US government are not to blame just as I do not blame the Arabian people for the heinous acts of a few evil factions.

There is an element on this planet that fosters war, conflict and misery and by concentrating and by absorbing our attention with these matters we are missing the true source of these ills.

I fully support a war on terrorism for the safety of all of the people on the planet. But let us not perpetuate the atrocities by attacking the wrong targets.

For any who question the intentions and motives of the American people, please consider these words written by a Canadian television commentator named Gordon Sinclair:

\"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for theAmericans as the most generous and possibly theleast appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts.

None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I\'d like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
If so, why don\'t they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are
getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don\'t think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I\'m one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those.\"

Stand proud, America! Wear it proudly!!

[Z6]

Thanks for posting that article Nicolas. But I fear these voices will be obscured by the very media machine of which it talks.

If the West would accept its own part in all of this then the world could indeed become a better place.

Carl Sagan used to speak of the human race as a species in adolescence, and that if we could overcome the need to follow leaders, we might grow into adulthood.

I fear we\'re along way from that, and articles such as this, that chronicle the complex web of events that are required to produce such fanaticism, have little impact.

The s tried to wipe out the jews. The Israeli government take little from the horrific experiences of their own historic plight. The Isreali president himself is a hair\'s breadth away from being indicted for his own crimes against humanity - I still remember wondering who the \"Christian Malitia\" were that he had ordered into a camp to commit mass murder. And worse, the Israeli government cite their religion when criticised - only an \'anti-semite\' could question them. Most Palestinians are spread across the world with no homeland - much like their oppressors were once themselves. Palestinians engage in \'Terror attacks\' while the Israeli government engages in \'Targeted\' attacks with \'collateral\' damage. Many Israeli\'s disagree with current policies and many Israeli soldiers are starting to refuse orders to fire on taxis or to bulldoze buildings until residents fight back with stones and explosives and their own lives. It is all too sickening for prime time.

I used to live in the Middle East. I remember a conversation I had with a Palestinian friend where I couldn\'t help but point out that the Palestinians WERE the jews of the modern world. They are the same people, their religions have a common root.

It seems we learn nothing. We are still barbarians. It makes me ashamed to be human.

I suspect that most people simply will not believe the article. The mainstream media and the political machine are designed to put people to sleep. The editorial policies of even \'international\' news networks skew facts and color events to fit our comfortable view of the world and our place within it.

Unimaginable suffering has been perpetrated by the West, and we are reaping the desperate backlash. My heart goes out to the innocent people who died in the US, Isreal, Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Sudan and everywhere attrocities have occured. And my heart goes out to the Afghani people who are about to die. I hope it can all be contained and the bloodlust that must be satisfied is somehow tempered before we blow everything.

[Synth2k]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Plundrik:

Did you know that nostradamus has written that world war III will begin \"when the light hits the twin towers\"? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are a lot of experts that regard Nostradamus prophecies as junk, I\'ve read, arguing that most of his prophecies can usually only be interpereted after an event like this has happened. Similar to seeing faces in the clouds, as one expert put it.

Ryan.




------------------
Sonic Control
www..com (\"http://www..com\")
Giga Users Network at
www..com/gigasampler/ (\"http://www..com/gigasampler/\")

[lanesp]

\"But in the other hand, fighting back is the bad way of Islamic world. You, nice Christians must act with God\'s love. To forgive the unforgivable is the best way of Christians.
God must win in the end.\" - Ryo

Forgiveness, yes. Acceptance, tolerance, absolutely not.

[This message has been edited by lanesp (edited 09-13-2001).]

[IOComposer]

disregard. My opinion means nothing right now.
-J

[This message has been edited by IOComposer (edited 09-13-2001).]

[Arush]

this was posted by the journalist gigadiga quoted:\"...In Palestine, the enduring illegal occupation by Israel
would have collapsed long ago were it not for US backing. \"

first of all, u see no one recognize our(actually my) 52 years old country as israel, its a *conquared* palestine state.

yes well, i wonder, before israel came to be israel was there even a struggle to make a palistane country? did other isalmi nations did something to dislodge the brithish occupation that was there after the turkish empire?
well no. they didn\'t even think about it, because there was never such a thing as palistine!it was invented by murderous gang and islamic goverments.

the whole process of making, of sharing our country with them didn\'t work, because *they* wouldn\'t come to negotiation tables.

there are many details i can add to strenghthen my case here of the world\'s only jewish country, but who cares,right?

[donnie]

Two quick things that are totally different from each other.

1. It saddens me to see \"ingorant\" Americans defacing and hurting Arabic Americans. This makes no sense and makes us look as bad as the terrorists.

2. I read a report today that the Afghans were \"digging trenches\" in fear of an American attack. This shows the lack of knowledge the world has of our military power. When we do go over there there will be nothing left but dust.


Donnie

[pantonality]

I\'ve watched a lot of news with horror these past few days. My brother who works on Wall Street watched the second plane hit, watched the buildings come down, then walked 100 blocks north to catch a train out of the city. Our family was fortunate and my heart goes out to those less fortunate. Our country was attacked and the casualties (and there will be many thousands of them) were innocents.

Of those who wish retribution I would ask this, has Isreal\'s policy of strict retaliation brought them any closer to peace? I believe the answer to be a resounding NO. I strongly believe that violence begets violence. Does that mean we do nothing? Absolutely not! But adopting a John Wayne approach will be counterproductive. If we stoop to their level and go in with bombers, fighter jets and guns ablazin\' how much different are we? I am not disappointed with Bush so far (a surprise to me too!), his administration has worked on several fronts, console the nation and supply assistance to the victims, investigate the crime, and garner international support. What we do from this point will say a lot about who we are.

Simple retaliation will bring more retaliation from them and the violence will escalate. We see similar situations in Northern Ireland and in Isreal and Palestine. That\'s not a future I would choose. Can\'t we find a way to show how a civilized nation resolves these issues? If the USA is a world leader, then can\'t we act like one when the world most needs us to?

My $.02.

Steve Chandler

[Ryo]

\"WTC\" is ten times as evil and coward as \"Pearl Harbor\". So the group of the terrorists deserves twenty atomic bombs.

But in the other hand, fighting back is the bad way of Islamic world. You, nice Christians must act with God\'s love. To forgive the unforgivable is the best way of Christians.
God must win in the end.

[Ryo]

Dear lanesp,

I understand what you mean. But retaliation couldn\'t stop terrorism because the enemy is already in your country,in your neighborhood with a good face of American citizen. The best way is to check every Arabian in America mentally and psychologically to find out terrorists and re-educate them completely in some democratic American schools.

[This message has been edited by Ryo (edited 09-14-2001).]

[gigaDiga]

Ryo... what about the large body of Americans who are also turning to Islam. Do you think they should be `re-educated` too. Actually you can\'t tell by skin color who\'s gonna be a terrorist or who\'s not. Indeed the old lady down the street might be an excellent front for the dissemination of Radical literature.. perhaps she needs `re-educating` too. Hell there\'s gonna be alot of people who need re-educating... may be you should set up camps for them. That way you can systematically go through vast numbers of Americans and `re-educate` them. But will your re-education really work? There\'s only one way to be sure and that\'s to tag them. But who can you tell might not find themsleves attracted to Islam in the future. Maybe you should just be done with it... tag all Americans, track their daily locations, pre-empitively re-educate them, and make sure their locked up after 8pm.

Now that\'s what I call a free democratic society!

[paynterr]

I think that there is a lot of truth in the Glasgow article... Bush keeps harping on about \"an attack on freedom\"... why has bombing the middle east at a whim been regarded as NOT being an attack on freedom I ask? It may be a different way of life, a different culture and religion... but it\'s still THEIR freedom... I am frankly not surprised by tuesday\'s attack and still think that however awful it was (and people I know were affected) it is simply to be expected and personally, I think it could have been a lot worse.

[OH]

You know what made me wonder today: I was told secondhand that in the news media the following was stated: \'already a week or so ago an Arab in Germany waiting for his \'having to leave the country\' credibly spoke about imminent attacks...\' it was said that \'he even was allowed to speak with Washington but nobody took him serious\'. Anybody else heard of this already?

------------------
O.H.

[Jamesmcwilliams]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lucas:
Regarding the Glasgow Herald post:

I am an American and I believe that the information therein is more or less accurate. However, the US people and the US government are not to blame just as I do not blame the Arabian people for the heinous acts of a few evil factions.

There is an element on this planet that fosters war, conflict and misery and by concentrating and by absorbing our attention with these matters we are missing the true source of these ills.

I fully support a war on terrorism for the safety of all of the people on the planet. But let us not perpetuate the atrocities by attacking the wrong targets.

For any who question the intentions and motives of the American people, please consider these words written by a Canadian television commentator named Gordon Sinclair:

\"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for theAmericans as the most generous and possibly theleast appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts.

None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I\'d like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
If so, why don\'t they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are
getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don\'t think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I\'m one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those.\"

Stand proud, America! Wear it proudly!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A very moving speech, no doubt its meant to install insperation into the american people, but there are a few things i disagree with.

it fails to mention that the American space program consisted of rockets that were good only for blowing up on launch pads, until America \'hired\' an ex- german rocket scientist, which ultimatly led to the moon landings.

Also, a lot of the german experimental aircraft that were siezed by america after ww2 look suprisingly similar to future american aircraft \'achievements\'

Then there are the tales of american scientists copying british aircraft designs to achieve thier first speed of sound flight, and the fact that america had to buy VTOL harriers from British aerospace because thier own VTOL aircraft experiments were nothing more than million dollar lawn darts.
Where\'s america\'s concorde? an aircraft that more than competes with anything boeing has built. (I wonder why the concorde is not allowed to fly to many locations in america? probably because it wasn\'t invented there, and not because its \'Too noisy\' )

There are plenty more similar things like that i could go into...

many technology companies in america are staffed with foriegners... to America gets the credit because of that too.

I have great respect for america, you are a fine and great people, but please don\'t try and put the rest of the world down and take credit for all accomplishments in recent history. It really is a world effort.

Accept my deep sympathy for you at this terrible time.... I believe that special forces should be used to eliminate terrorists, then deal with the larger picture of guilty countries.

[SCARBEE]

disregard

[This message has been edited by SCARBEE (edited 09-15-2001).]

[Jan]

OK, here is my 2 cents.
In my life I have seen that there is a type of person that does not respond to reason: the bully for instance. If you seek to reason with a bully, he will see this as a sign of weakness and will feel encouraged to continue to be the way he is. The only way to stop this type of person is to speak his language: the fist. Sometimes it is necessary to knock someone down in order to stop him from doing more harm. Sadam is such a person, Hitler was such a person, and what makes them dangerous is the fact that they are able to overrule their conscience.
What we have seen on September 11th is an example of a cowardly attack of people without a conscience. The attack has not even been claimed yet, that is how courageous these types of people are.
Some say it is the fault of Islam. I have friends who are Islamic, and they are decent people who do not condone this action in any way. It is not religion, religion is merely the excuse those kinds of people use. If it weren’t religion it would be a political system. If it weren’t a political system it would be racism. The real cause is HATRED. And hatred will always find an excuse to justify what it did. And in this case it happens to be Islam.
Hatred makes some Palestians cheer in the streets over what has happened. Hatred creates terrorists that places bombs. Just take a good look at the Middle East. And how about Ireland? Or Bosnia? We see it all around us.
And what is hatred? Isn’t it sustained anger? And what does anger consist of? Isn’t it sustained resentment? Something this big always starts with the small seed of resentment If there is anything we can learn from all this it is not to hate back those responsible, because then we WILL have lost, even though we might punish those responsible.
What do you do with a dog who has killed a child? You kill it before it does more damage. What do you do with those who committed those horrible acts, really crimes against humanity? Right, you eliminate them, because if they are capable of doing that, and continue with their lives as usual, they are without conscience and might do similar things in the future.
But the important thing is NOT to act out of hatred, because then, even though they may be killed, their evil will live on in our hearts.
We know they have to be found, and they must be stopped from repeating similar actions in the future. But I hope that it will be done not out of hatred, but because there is no other option. And besides that, justice must be served. Only let it not be done out of hatred. That way their evil dies with them and does not live on in our hearts.
I am a Dutch guy, and what I want to say to the Americans here is: you are the inhabitants of the land of the free, don’t let those bastards wound your spirit by inducing hatred in your hearts. Keep your spirits free, and do what is necessary. In this case, force must be met with force. Or else they will trample on you. My country is already assisting you in any way it can, and it will continue to do so. I offer you my deepest sympathy, and you will be in my prayers.

Jan

[Lucas]

Jamesmcwilliams wrote:

\"I have great respect for america, you are a fine and great people, but please don\'t try and put the rest of the world down and take credit for all accomplishments in recent history. It really is a world effort.\"


Hello. First of all, I appreciate and acknowledge the accomplishments of all people of the world. I use these products every day and I am not trying to take credit for all that is good in the world.

The article you read was not written by me but was by a Canadian and it was done prior to the September 11 attack.

My point is this: frankly, I do not trust the American press as far as you can throw them and I frequently get my news from foreign sources. Thus, I am aware of the US\' reputation and it is in general not particularly good. So when I saw the article from the Glasgow Herald bashing the US I want to make known the other side of the picture.

As I said in my original post, I do not deny that most of the information is true. However, with facts you can paint an untrue picture and that is what this article did. You have to look at all the facts, not just the negative ones.

I would personally like to thank people across the world for their kind support these last few days. We really feel that we are not alone.

Lucas




[This message has been edited by Lucas (edited 09-14-2001).]

[Jamesmcwilliams]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lucas:
Jamesmcwilliams wrote:

\"I have great respect for america, you are a fine and great people, but please don\'t try and put the rest of the world down and take credit for all accomplishments in recent history. It really is a world effort.\"


Hello. First of all, I appreciate and acknowledge the accomplishments of all people of the world. I use these products every day and I am not trying to take credit for all that is good in the world.

The article you read was not written by me but was by a Canadian and it was done prior to the September 11 attack.

My point is this: frankly, I do not trust the American press as far as you can throw them and I frequently get my news from foreign sources. Thus, I am aware of the US\' reputation and it is in general not particularly good. So when I saw the article from the Glasgow Herald bashing the US I want to make known the other side of the picture.

As I said in my original post, I do not deny that most of the information is true. However, with facts you can paint an untrue picture and that is what this article did. You have to look at all the facts, not just the negative ones.

I would personally like to thank people across the world for their kind support these last few days. We really feel that we are not alone.

Lucas

[This message has been edited by Lucas (edited 09-14-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please understand that i wasn\'t getting angry with you...i read both the glasgow herald post and the canadians report and i can fully see what you mean.

The reason i posted was that i have had many experiences on the internet of a kind of american that seems to use the very same argument that the canadian was using to tell me how great they are and how i am supposed to be sucking thier D**ks in appreciation because they think the rest of the world has invented nothing and done nothing that benifits mankind.

Perhaps I was out of line to bring that discussion to this forum, and for that I apolagise.

I think we must all remember this.... the terrorists do not represent the vast majority of islam....just as the KKK doesn\'t represent the vast majority of America.

Take care,

[Damon]

All I know is once we find these Taliban bastards who helped harbor Bin Laden, they and Osalim are gonna get seriously f-cked up.
As well they should. I don\'t have a single ounce of pity for them even if they didn\'t know anything about what happened. They let Osalim stay in their country which means simply that they support him and they will not extradite him.
I\'m getting sick and tired of hearing of the Taliban threats to the US since this has happened, and that they knew nothing of what was going to happen. These people are not innocent IMHO.
Unfortunately war is a VERY ugly thing. Innocent people do die as well as they did in the US on Tuesday. Therefore innocent people over in Afghanistan will die as well. What about the thousands of innocent people in the World Trade Center and Pentagon and jets that died here? Did they deserve this? I hate to sound mean, but innocent people will die over there. If we could just get the terrorists that did this, it would be a much better thing and the innocent would not get hurt. Unfortunately it\'s going to be a very long and nasty war which I have prayed would hopefully never happen. As I stated, war is a VERY ugly thing, but if anything could provoke such ugliness, it would have been what this terrorist group fisted out to us on Tuesday. If the innocent are smart over there, they will be hauling *** far away from their country.
It\'s gonna get REAL ugly over there, even though it already is.
Osalim Bin Laden-GO TO HELL SON OF A BITCH!




[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 09-16-2001).]

[PaPa Chalk]

Hello all I\'ve been away from the forum for quite sometime because of the serious situation which happened in the past week.
I decided to take a peak at the forum and found this string of messages. Please stick to the topics of this forum. I had a very close family member who was in the world trade center at the time of this unbelievable event. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/frown.gif Very, Very close call for our family. We finally got in contact him.
Please try to keep the topic based on the forum as it\'s not making me or others feel any better about this.

It’s making it harder to deal with.

My deepest heart felt sympathy to all those families involved or have been touched in someway by this grotesque act.

Please I know it\'s hard not to feel angry or some sense of emotions but Please...Please lets not talk in this way on this board is inappropriate right now. It\'s certainly not making me or the other families feel any better and i have been touched directly by this.
I\'m going to close this thread and hope that
You can all understand.

If you like to give respect or condolences fine but let’s not go beyond that.

Thank you all for your previous support.
http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
PaPa Chalk

[nigel]

\"ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE\"

nothing else matters.


Yaser Arifat\'s reaction was visible horror
and to give blood to his brothers of the
U.S.A.

Sharon\'s reaction was to blame all arabs
and fire of a few more missiles into a residential area of Palestine.

Out of this horror,
this a perfect time to unit the world against all forms of terrorism, state or otherwise.

I beg all you Americans to please stop supporting Israel.

All forms of terrorism are unacceptable.