I am devastated

[Damon]

Obviously we all know what happened today. My best friend Glenn worked at the World Trade Center. I don\'t even know if he\'s alive. This is terrible.


[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 09-11-2001).]

[SCARBEE]

Hi Damon,

I hope your friend is alive. The last rumours are that 2 airplanes have been hijacked over Texas. I hope my friends in Austin will not see another action here.

Thomas

[pantonality]

Hi All,

You might say what\'s happened has let us know how good we\'ve had it for a long time. My brother works on Wall Street, but I know he\'s safe. Damon I really feel for you not knowing if your freind is OK. The pundits are calling today\'s events \"This generation\'s Pearl Harbor.\" One correspondant recalled a Japanese general\'s observaqtion after Pearl Harbor, \"I\'m afraid we\'ve awakened a sleeping giant.\" All I know is what happened today certainly got my attention. I can\'t concentrate on work.

What a difference a day makes! The world took a significant turn today.

Steve www.mp3.com/stevechandler (\"http://www.mp3.com/stevechandler\") www.mp3.com/ettienne (\"http://www.mp3.com/ettienne\")

[Tokyo Joe]

As a brit I grew up in London with the threat of IRA bombings. I was going to visit Harrods the day it was bombed. Thank G*d I changed my mind.

I now live in the US and this is just on another scale all together. It\'s scary.

[This message has been edited by Tokyo Joe (edited 09-11-2001).]

[donnie]

The people responsible for this are not human and deserve what is going to come to them. The news reel of the Palestinians dancing in the street and throwing candy around makes me sick. What kind of coward takes a plane full of innocent civilians and then crashes into buildings with other innocent civilans? These fn\' holes deserve everything they are going to get.

PS...like Damon just said....don\'t bother giving me or anyone else the what if thing either. At least out of respect for the innocent dead...don\'t bother going there.

Donnie

[KingIdiot]

Just because you are raised there doesn\'t mean you believe in it. Nuking \"them\" would be in the same vein as the crashes to the WTC. Killing innocents to make a point and get some people...while getting some \"important poeple\" at the same time.

There are many people in the Middle east who don\'t agree with the terrorist tactics.

I know you\'re frustrated and mad Damon, but dont let the acts of Ignorants turn you into a prejiduced person.

Anyhow,..yah this is not the place to discuss this.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[Z6]

I am angry. Everyone is angry. There are no words to decribe such an attrocity.

There is no punishmnet that could possibly fit such a crime. But \'these people\' are a figment of the imagination. The US government created Bin Laden as it created Sadam (it needed the Afghans to fight the Russians and the Iraqis to fight Iran).

There are horrible things that go on at some strange level that the rest of us are not privvy to. But when Oklahoma City happened there were calls to bomb \'the Middle East\' as if somehow all the millions of peaceful people who happened to be born there were responsible.

This has nothing to do with religion. Just as the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki had nothing to do with religion. Just as shooting down an Iranian passenger plane had nothing to do with religion. There are bad, bad people in the world and they want you to react exactly the way you\'re reacting. They want to see evil done in whatever name.

I just pray that the politicians do not succumb to the need to make \'someone\' pay (that is; anyone, however innocent). I pray that they do not add to the murder of the innocent that happened today. If you lived next door to a serial killer, does that make you a serial killer? The \'Middle East\' is a big place. It is full of people just like you and me. These evil men want the US to go in, guns blazing, so that they might rerospectively justify their murder.

People in the \'Middle East\' are humans beings. They are not animals. Be angry. But vent your anger where it belongs. I fear that the attitudes displayed here will win and mass lynchings of the innocent will occur. But god, please, I hope not.

[pantonality]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>My friend might be dead because of this tragedy, so Z6 please don\'t spew any \"peace talk\" on me bro.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well you may not want to hear peace talk, so let me ask you. Has the strategy of reprisals worked for Isreal? What we\'ve experienced today is a single large scale version of what they get every day. Yet it\'s obvious that violence only begets violence.

You ask how can they be called real people? Until you\'ve experienced what the Palestinian\'s have experienced I wouldn\'t second guess their judgement. In my experience people always do things that make sense at the time. I personally believe that both sides in the middle eastern conflict have contributed to what we experienced today.

That the USA is now involved is obvious. It seems to me Bush has up to now chosen to distance himself from the conflict. Perhaps today he will see that that was an error of judgement. The USA needs to play a leadership role and unfortunately our particpation in world affairs is not optional. We need to NOT stoop to the level of terrorists, but rather keep to as high a road as possible. Given the hawks I\'m hearing around me I don\'t have high hopes. That\'s my perspective.

Steve


[This message has been edited by pantonality (edited 09-11-2001).]

[Damon]

Well lets just do nothing. How about that? Let\'s let these f-ckers keep attacking us and killing. Yeah, good idea. You guys really think that these maniacs are gonna stop what they\'re doing? I doubt it.
I am by far not a violent person but we certainly can\'t just let this atrocity pass us by and say \"Give Peace a chance.\" This could lead to a nuclear war for godsake if we don\'t stop them in time.
I hope we take MAJOR affirmative action against these people.
I am so blown away that some of you could think this after seeing all of the destruction on TV today.

[Jamieh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>This has nothing to do with religion. Just as the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki had nothing to do with religion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To compare today\'s terrorist act to the bombings of Japan during a declared world war is ridiculous and insulting. The bombing of Japan was a military action designed to cause the surrender of a country that made a first strike on US soil. Today\'s attack was an unprovoked act of war by fanatic cowards.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 09-11-2001).]

[IOComposer]

I think the most important thing is to remain calm and rational. All perspectives are valid and should be expressed as it will help with the progress of healing and reconstruction. For me, it\'s important to keep a compassionate perspective at all times regardless of the acts of others. I am a musician for a reason and that reason is to promote beauty in the world; to contribute something positive to a dangerously negative world. Now more than ever it is imperative that we believe in what we\'re doing and try to make our sample libraries sing with a positive message and try to contribute something constructive to the chaos around us. No need for fear, just constructive action. Go make some great music!! You have your inspiration http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
-J

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Damon:
Well lets just do nothing. How about that? Let\'s let these f-ckers keep attacking us and killing. Yeah, good idea. You guys really think that these maniacs are gonna stop what they\'re doing? I doubt it.
I am by far not a violent person but we certainly can\'t just let this atrocity pass us by and say \"Give Peace a chance.\" This could lead to a nuclear war for godsake if we don\'t stop them in time.
I hope we take MAJOR affirmative action against these people.
I am so blown away that some of you could think this after seeing all of the destruction on TV today. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who are \'These People\' then? If it turns out to be a crazy redneck (like Oklahoma, although I\'m sure it\'s not), what then? Unfortunately you (or I or anyone else) can\'t fight this. When madmen are willing to commit suicide you can\'t fight it. I lived in London throughout the IRA attacks. What should we do? Wipe out Ireland because a couple of hundred drunken, unemployed bums want to feel important?

You want an answer? Tell the US government to stop funding Israeli terrorism then they\'ll have to get round a table. Then the Palestinian terrorists can be exposed for the murderers that they are. And the Israeli power structure can be exposed for the terrorists that they are. The WHOLE WORLD recently condemned the Isreali government as racist but the US walked out of the conference. Jesse Jackson (the US representative) apprently sees racism as purely a matter of color. These actions precipitated this (although there is no doubt that this \'plan\' has been a long time in the making).

They want Americans to feel what they feel. This is part of daily life in the Middle East\'.

It\'s not about peace. If there were a country that really was responsible I would agree with you, but the enemy is already dead.

I\'m sorry Damon, really, for your friend and all the people involved and their families, And I don\'t disagree, that someone must pay. But who? It is the nature of terrorism. There is no \'They\', unfortunately. There are women and children and people going about their business; \'They\' will be the ones who suffer, as always. The bastards who made this happen will not suffer, no matter how many people are murdered in the name of vengence.

And no, I don\'t think they\'ll stop. And yes, there may be a war, but I don\'t know who with. The US will have to choose an enemy. I don\'t know how you round up four or five thousand maniacs.

[Damon]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Z6:
There are women and children and people going about their business; \'They\' will be the ones who suffer, as always. The bastards who made this happen will not suffer, no matter how many people are murdered in the name of vengence.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Z6, \"They\" refers to the Muslim fundamentalists. I have stated that before.
I do agree there are innocent women and children that do suffer but I don\'t feel any pity for the women married to these terrorists. They will breed their children to hate and end up just like daddy.
Sorry, I have no pity for them at the moment.

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 09-11-2001).]

[OH]

>The news reel of the Palestinians dancing in the street and throwing candy around makes me sick.<

What do these children know? Have you seen Arafat? He was in no way victorious but deeply moved & shocked.


------------------
O.H.

[OH]

My deepest sympathy to you & your country.



------------------
O.H.

[Damon]

Arafat did seem very upset, I agree. They are now saying that evidence is pointing toward Osalim Ben Ladin.
I agree I did sound pretty harsh in saying lets just nuke the middle east. I am just upset. I realize there are innocent women and children in the middle east, but there are also very evil people obviously. I just want justice once we find out who has done this.
I still can\'t believe the twin towers are completely gone. My home town will never look the same. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/frown.gif My heart goes out to all of the families of the people who have died as well. Such an awful day.

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 09-11-2001).]

[Jamieh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>If it turns out to be a crazy redneck (like Oklahoma, although I\'m sure it\'s not), what then?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sources are reporting that Bin Laden is responsible for the attacks. An Arab paper reported a week ago that Bin Laden was preparing an \"uprecidented act of terrorism\" against the US.

I suspect there will be US troops in Afghanistan very shortly.

[MidiDimwit]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jamieh:
Sources are reporting that Bin Laden is responsible for the attacks. An Arab paper reported a week ago that Bin Laden was preparing an \"uprecidented act of terrorism\" against the US.

I suspect there will be US troops in Afghanistan very shortly.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you have a source for this info? MSNBC is saying there is no way Bin Laden could have pulled this off without the aid of a seat of power(ie-a country).

I hear we may have just wasted Kabul,Afghanistan. Hope they have their facts straight, as there are too many innocents lost today, and many more before this is over.

[Jamieh]

Here is what CNN is saying:

There have been reports the last few weeks that Bin Laden was planning terrorism against the US on a scale never seen before. Obviously this would indicate that Bin Laden was behind it, but it could also have been disinformation that was planted.

As for the explosions in Afghanistan, the US is denying any involvement. CNN is speculating that Afghani rebels have attacked and destroyed a government munitions dump.

[Kenn159]

I know alot of us were raised watching John Wayne who\'s curing for any situation is to just go and kick some butt and then everything will be fine.
But the problem with life in the real world of the 21 century ,these people we are dealing with are intentionally taking there own lives in order to achieve marderdum status in there after life.
So they don\'t fear being killed ,they will voluntarily give there own lives .
I do feel that they should be accountable[String Aso bin laden up by the balls] in this life and in the after life[ I dont think god has a good place planned for Innocent people killers ]for what they have done but I think it is impossible to 100 percent protect in the future everywhere in this country unless you are willing to live in a George Orwell\'s 1984 police state .

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jamieh:


As for the explosions in Afghanistan, the US is denying any involvement. CNN is speculating that Afghani rebels have attacked and destroyed a government munitions dump.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read that the Taliban murdered the main oppositon leader a couple of days ago so it might be unrelated to the Trade Center. If the rebels are indeed trying take over then that\'s good; the Taliban are a disgrace to humanity.

[Kenn159]

I think the reason for the timing is because this is a holy time of the year for the muslims.

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
Just because you are raised there doesn\'t mean you believe in it. Nuking \"them\" would be in the same vein as the crashes to the WTC. Killing innocents to make a point and get some people...while getting some \"important poeple\" at the same time.

There are many people in the Middle east who don\'t agree with the terrorist tactics.

I know you\'re frustrated and mad Damon, but dont let the acts of Ignorants turn you into a prejiduced person.

Anyhow,..yah this is not the place to discuss this.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with all the points KingIdiot has made here. This terrible tragedy is bad enough without adding hateful talk of \'nuking\' innocent people.

I also want to reiterate what Z6 said: \"It is dreadful. But real people live in the Middle East. They are not bugs. I just hope that the people resonsible are apprehended, and calls to kill and torture the innocent are ignored.\"

Damon, no matter how bad the situation, there is little excuse for saying: \"Why don\'t we just nuke the f-cking middle east already. They are the true evil of this world. I\'m extremely liberal politically, but in this case...they gotta go.\"

I respectfully ask the moderator(s) of this forum to consider removing this entire thread.

Nicholas

[Damon]

I don\'t want to nuke innocent children and families Nicolas. My first reaction was very angry when I heard what happened this morning. I shouldn\'t have brought it up here but I did and that\'s life.
I realized my friend is STILL nowhere to be found since he worked at the World Trade Center and I can\'t even call his mom in NYC. I am VERY pissed off to say the least. As I relook through my posts today, I realize I have gone through emotional ups and downs. I apologize if I offended anyone from the middle east on this forum. I will delete what I said on my first post because it was harsh in saying we should just nuke the entire middle east. I was reacting to the fact that the middle east muslim fundamentalists no nothing but violence and hate, but I do realize not everyone is like that Nicolas. I am definitely not any kind of racist. I want peace more then anyone, but with what has happened, we must take action if this was Osalim Ben Ladins doings.
I think alot of people have felt angry today. It\'s a terrible situation.




[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 09-11-2001).]

[nicholash]

Damon,

I hope your friend is alive and not injured.

I had heard that children were killed (presumably in the Day Care centre you mention). Any death of an innocent person due to terrorism is absolutely terrible, no matter what age the person may be.

Of course we all want justice for this appauling atrocity.

I myself am not from the middle east, but that is beside the point. However, your suggestion of indiscriminate killing of those in the middle east (including innocent people which would include chilren as well) is bang out of order. Please do not be reduced nearer to their level.

My original post clearly shows that I am very upset/angered by the atrocities: So Damon, don\'t insult me with your \'cheap\' remark: \"You might think differently Nicolas if you find out that there is a Day Care center in the World Trade Center.\"

Nicholas
p.s I feel this topic is totally unsuitable for this forum, and again I respectfully ask that the moderator(s) remove this entire thread.

[Damon]

disregard

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 09-11-2001).]

[nicholash]

Hi again Damon,

Thanks for editing out that \'cheap\' remark you made to me which used to be in your last message.

I can understand your anger, and I expect the people of the world will do their best to see that justice is done to the terrorists.

Pray for the injured and the families of the dead, and that we don\'t become too hateful and prejudiced.

Best regards
Nicholas

[nicholash]

Damon,

You said: \"Who made you king of the forum to ask that this thread be removed? Are you f-cking American or what Nicolas???
Freedom of Speech is one of our rights here. My head is getting REAL hot right now, so I\'ll just stop myself.\"

I am not the king of the forum. I am definately not against freedom of speech. (I am also not American by the way). However, I am angered by indiscriminate hatred and prejudice, and will use my \'freedom of speech\' to say so.

Nicholas

[Damon]

Nicolas, it sounds like you want to start a war here. I spoke my mind. I have a lot of hate toward the middle east at the moment. Maybe I am racist toward them.
I rest my case.

[nicholash]

Hi Damon,

Thanks again for removing the remark against me that you used to have in your previous post.

Best regards
Nicholas
p.s. I\'m not trying to upset you. Also, if the moderator(s) don\'t want to remove this thread, I\'ll respect their decision.

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Damon:
Nicolas, it sounds like you want to start a war here. I spoke my mind. I have a lot of hate toward the middle east at the moment. Maybe I am racist toward them.
I rest my case.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damon,

The last thing I want is to start a war here, so please stop accusing me of such things.

Nicholas

[Damon]

Let\'s call a truce then. I apologize if I offended you in some way.

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Damon:
Let\'s call a truce then. I apologize if I offended you in some way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Damon.

Please remember that I also didn\'t intend to offend you, and apologise likewise if I did.

Lets hope your friend is o.k.

Take care
Nicholas

[Damon]

Thanks Nicolas. I hope he is okay as well. I\'m not racist either, just angry. I just posted that comment in frustration.

[esperlad]

I wanted to point out that in one the planes, there was a call to 911, and someone took the call. If this information goes public, then perhaps we will have a clearer idea of who may be responsible.
I also have a friend who lives in New York, and I have not heard from him either.

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Damon:
Thanks Nicolas. I hope he is okay as well. I\'m not racist either, just angry. I just posted that comment in frustration. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Damon,

Your anger and frustration are quite understandable, and I\'m sorry if I fuelled you fire.

Best regards
Nicholas
p.s. After yesterday\'s terrible events, I\'m finding it hard to contribute to the on-topic threads of this forum. It all seems somewhat inappropriate at the moment, while we are still suffering from the shock.

[Z6]

Damon; I don\'t think this is the place to be calling for \'nukes\' (or even the place to be talking about this).

It is dreadful. But real people live in the Middle East. They are not bugs. I just hope that the people resonsible are apprehended, and calls to kill and torture the innocent are ignored.

Damon, I hope your friend is safe but if these terrorists came from Dallas or Oklahoma I don\'t think dropping a bomb on those cities would be the most apt response.

[Jamieh]

I think we all are Nicolas.

[Jamieh]

Damon, I am in general a peaceful person but today it is hard to disagree with you.

When you have an entire religion that preaches that if you suicide bomb your enemies you will go to \"heaven\" and get endless with 70 virgins, you have a f***ed up situation. These people are raised from birth to believe that the most glorious thing is to kill as many people as possible. There are a lot of sick sick people at work there. I honestly wonder if think they will stop before do something so stupid it destroys the earth. I don\'t think they would care, as they would all be in their \"heaven\".

Of course, we should temper our comments until we know for sure who did this. Obviously I would be shocked if it wasn\'t someone from the Middle East, but crazy things have happened before.

Sorry for the political commentary. Today is a day that it is hard to think about music.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 09-11-2001).]

[Damon]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Z6:
Damon; I don\'t think this is the place to be calling for \'nukes\' (or even the place to be talking about this).
It is dreadful. But real people live in the Middle East. They are not bugs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can you call these people real people?? Are you crazy??? They hate Americans, they teach their children to hate. They feel that to die by killing Americans is what God wants them to do. I\'m sure you\'d feel different if your mother or friend was blown up in a plane by some sh-thead from Afghanistan. I guess I was a little loose saying to bomb the entire middle east, but the muslim fundamentalists have to go.
I\'m just very upset today. My friend might be dead because of this tragedy, so Z6 please don\'t spew any \"peace talk\" on me bro.
For anyone interested, you can donate blood nationwide at 1-888-BLOOD-88.

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 09-11-2001).]

[donnie]

After a long hard day of reflection I think it\'s important to make a few things known for Americans in general.

Number one I trully hope that the American public will not generalize middle eastern people in general as \"bad guys\". Todays attack was clearly the result of radicals with no morals.

Number two it has to be understandable with the reactions of people from this country. For example, Damon may have lost a loved one. To me, any reaction has to be understood and forgiven.

Finally, expression, whether on a internet forum or talking to friend on the phone is a form of expression and part of the healing process. Please let this process happen naturally and remember that everyone handles tragedies differently. I know that my life will forever be changed by todays events. I already look at my 4 month old son in a completely different way.

I just pray that the people behind this act will be brought to justice.

Donnie

[Doc]

Tonight, my cousin, a United Airlines pilot sleeps in my home in Chicago (her home is in Washington state). Her morning flight from Boston\'s Logan airport left shortly before the two hijacked flights from there (15 minutes). She is thankful that fate was not unkind to her today. Her flight bags were not searched this morning at Logan as is the usual practice. News reports of phone calls made by the hijacked passengers indicate that on each flight, groups of 3 to 5 using knives and claiming to have bombs took over the flights. If the airplane\'s cockpit bulkhead and door were of proper construction, say out of reinforced Kevlar, with a proper locking mechanism; then today\'s tragedy could have been averted even if the hijackers had guns instead of knives. Commercial pilots have been asking for this safety modification for years however it has been repeately rejected by the FAA and airlines due to cost. How much money does it cost to construct two 110 story and one 47 story office building? Add to that the four jets, pentagon damage, and most importantly loss of life and injury to humans. How much has it cost to shut down the business of this country for a day? Surely there will be debate to follow on appropriate security expenditures for our government and military. My hope is that we start doing the smart thing by looking at reasonable cost, effective preventative measures before we spend a trillion dollars on missle defense. It\'s sad to me to think a better cockpit door would have saved so many lives. Thankfully my cousin\'s life is safe tonight.

[IOComposer]

I\'ve been watching the TV on and off throughout the day and I\'m exhausted. I talked to my dad tonight and he told me that he never thought anything could ever eclipse the intensity of the day that Kennedy had been shot, but today he was proven wrong. Every time I see the footage of the planes hitting the towers, it just confounds me even more.
One thing that plagues my mind is why a group or organization would go through such a masterful plan and operation, succeed in every way, and then keep themselves annonymous? Shouldn\'t they be bragging and celebrating in the streets of their victory? After watching and listening to some of the expert opinions on what was involved in this highly organized effort, I started to think that perhaps we\'re all jumping to conclusions irrationally and blaming this Bin Laden guy. Honestly, I don\'t know much about him, but I learned that this level of terrorism is very unprecedented for his operation. The extent of his attacks have been pretty much carefully placed car bombs. The precision, planning, life commitments, and money involved in today\'s operation are the result of a collective resource that seems well beyond Bin Laden\'s capabilities. Then I got to thinking, who would have it in for us so deeply to go through the massive effort required to pull this thing off? Who would have the resources and the money to fund this kind of operation? Who would have the technical resources to train pilots to fly 737s? Most importantly, what would motivate someone to go to these lengths? Revenge has to be the motivation. The level of determination required to pull this off could only be fueled by a nation with a deep seated hunger for revenge. Who on earth would want revenge on the US?? This is pretty much \"The Mother of all Terrorist Attacks\". Sound familiar? I feel I know who did this and if I\'m right, I hope that the US figures this out before it starts retaliating against the wrong suspect.
-J

[MikeGraybill]

I\'ve been glued to the tv for the last 14 hrs, as I\'m sure everyone has been, and thought I\'d see how things were here before I went to sleep. A friend of mine\'s father was representing Ericson at the WTC for the last two weeks, and we still haven\'t heard wether or not he\'s okay. As angry as I am still, being bombarded with the coverage for so long with no breaks lends itself to a sense of calm. And I find myself wrestling with things that are difficult to answer.

I\'m a firm believer that violence begets violence, and that repaying evil with more evil cannot perpetrate a good. However, there are violent people in this world, and if everytime one of them decided they wanted something and just killed and took it with no opposition, the greater good would never be served. America responded violently when provoked throughout its history, and managed to forge and maintain a system that allows anyone to attain what they want without violence. So, apparently my beliefs have been flawed, now that I really think about it. Violence can perpetrate a greater good.

(You see why I\'m wrestling with this?)

As far as who is responsible. I totally agree with the President in his decision to hold harboring governments accountable as well as the actual organizers. Picture this:
You (anyone living in America) go next door to say hi to your neighbor, Bob. He\'s cooking out this day, and you talk for a bit, and learn that last weekend, he bombed a city hall in a Russian town.

How long do you think Bob would remain your neighbor after you learned of this? He wouldn\'t last a day. People in this country would NEVER tolerate that kind of person or organization within our borders. And if we did, then yes, we would be as guilty as any people harboring this kind of terrorist. Either they turn as many of these people over as they can get their hands on, or suffer the inevitable consequences. No they\'re not bugs, and yes, the children are truly inocent, but their parents are not. If a foolish mother doesn\'t strap her baby tightly in when taking a car trip, her inocent baby will pay the price if she\'s in a wreck. If the nation surrounding this organization is willing to tolerate this kind of behaviour, they are no better, and will sadly have to suffer along side it.

My deepest fear at this point, is retaliation upon our own inevitable retaliation. Who knows what our enemies have up their sleeves... Whatever it may be, I expect we\'ll know very soon. I\'ve never been this afraid in my life.

I realize this is a sample discussion board, but it is also a sect of a community, and an excellent place to speak one\'s mind and be heard. It\'s kinda nice to get some of these thoughts out. Thanks for listening.

Take Care Folks,
-Mike-

[Jamieh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Shouldn\'t they be bragging and celebrating in the streets of their victory? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Both the Palestinians and Iraq were most definitely celebrating in the streets. They showed that on CNN.

[paynterr]

It\'s a fact of life that we find ourselves in the situation we find ourselves in. Being a Brit, I have lived amongst terrorism for years... and yet many of my friends are northern and southern irish. You can\'t pick any groups out. What one group of humans finds acceptable, another finds abhorant. Some find fundamentalist ismlamic behaviour abhorant, others think McDonalds and Nike evil - both have their cases. Welcome to the 21st century... I just hope Bush doesn\'t do anything rash...

[KingIdiot]

Still one must remember that a group of 100 or so celebrating does not represent the millions that reside there.

As well their celebrating doesn\'t mean THEY are responsible.

I\'m jsut putting these out because we shouldn\'t really be the ones speculating on who is responsible since we aren\'t privvy to all the information.

The Media\'s focus on Bin Laden may be the worst thing. Its stirred up so much hate from people towards Arabic/muslim people.

My parents are both Muslim and by blood I am considered one to the community. I personally dont follow a faith and or care much about ones, but I know the kind of crap I went through when Saddam was a focus of hatred. The name calling, change of attitude and general ignorance of people is a scary thing to be on the recieving end of. Mostly a result of the Media. People generalize too much and the Media is ignorant of taht fact.

anyhow, I\'m still in shock over the day\'s happenings. I nearly cry EVERYTIME I see taht plane fly into the building, and today I don\'t really like being part of the human race..since it relates me in some way to the unbelievably Evil people that did this.


------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[OH]

>Still one must remember that a group of 100 or so celebrating does not represent the millions that reside there.>

And Damon, who started this topic, knows this. Mr.Idiot. I know what you talk about. My mother is Palestine (though not muslim). Focussing on a possible terrorist who might not be the one is dangerous. Telling the world to wipe out those who habor them is dangerous as well. I hope that they don\'t just attack on an unsecure knowledge and don\'t just attack out of emotion without talking first...


------------------
O.H.

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
Still one must remember that a group of 100 or so celebrating does not represent the millions that reside there.

As well their celebrating doesn\'t mean THEY are responsible.

I\'m jsut putting these out because we shouldn\'t really be the ones speculating on who is responsible since we aren\'t privvy to all the information.

The Media\'s focus on Bin Laden may be the worst thing. Its stirred up so much hate from people towards Arabic/muslim people.

My parents are both Muslim and by blood I am considered one to the community. I personally dont follow a faith and or care much about ones, but I know the kind of crap I went through when Saddam was a focus of hatred. The name calling, change of attitude and general ignorance of people is a scary thing to be on the recieving end of. Mostly a result of the Media. People generalize too much and the Media is ignorant of taht fact.

anyhow, I\'m still in shock over the day\'s happenings. I nearly cry EVERYTIME I see taht plane fly into the building, and today I don\'t really like being part of the human race..since it relates me in some way to the unbelievably Evil people that did this.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well expressed KingIdiot, and very sorry to hear that you went through that kind of crap when Saddam was a focus of hatred. A Muslim guy, that I used to share a desk with whilst at work, occasionally used to say that my kind should be shot dead. This wasn\'t pleasant for me, but it certainly has not made me hateful towards Muslims, not even him. With the shock of these recent terrible events, it is understandable/inevitable that most of us will be angry as well as upset. We have to try and be careful how we vent this anger. Having had a little sleep now (after watching the tragic events unfold on tv for hours and hours), maybe I should be pleased that Damon expressed some of his anger and frustration towards myself. Pent-up anger needs a release, but I hope people\'s anger does not become too misdirected.

Best regards
Nicholas

[SUPEROLAND]

I just want to say, from France, that we are very very sad from happened to the people of the United States of America.
Be sure that we do share your sadness in front of this unbelievable horror that almost reveals a \"state of war\" that we hope will not lead to apocalypse...

We hope that all the people behind this act will be punished.

God bless all of you.

Love from France.

Arnaud.

[Damon]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doc:
Her morning flight from Boston\'s Logan airport left shortly before the two hijacked flights from there (15 minutes). She is thankful that fate was not unkind to her today.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I am glad she is okay Doc. She was very lucky.

[Thomas_J]

I\'d like to express my deepest sympathy for the many people involved. It is a very very sad event. Damon, I truely hope your friend is alive and unharmed.

Thomas

[Damon]

Thanks alot for the concern guys. I will attempt to call his mother again today and hopefully get through.

[esteven1]

I am a religious person but I\'m not trying to be \"religious\" when I say this: \"I thank God for being alive\". I work down in the Financial District where this all took place and I witnessed the whole thing. While I was watching the first building burn all of a sudden I heard a ENOURMOUS turbine engine come within meters of my building and then I saw a maasive 747 headed straight for the second center and I knew something was wrong. The shockwave effect was felt for at least 10 sqaure blocks.

My company got out and ran and we had nowhere to run too. Everyone was covered in soot. Most of my fellow coworkers who work in the trade center got out alive but still a few we haven\'t heard from. My coworker was covered with blood not knowing where it came from.

I\'m lucky to have got out of there with just a bruised leg and blistered feet from walking 80 blocks. YES 80 blocks of manhattan as all transportation came to a halt.

I was just in the Trade center yesterday morning heading to my building and I still can\'t believe it.

God bless you all and be thankful you are alive and hug and kiss your wives because you never know when you will see them again. This was proven yesterday.



[This message has been edited by esteven1 (edited 09-12-2001).]

[OH]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by esteven1:
[B]I am a religious person but I\'m not trying to be \"religious\" when I say this: \"I thank God for being alive\".

I am glad you are.

------------------
O.H.

[franz]

There is no words to express my sympathy and sorrow.

It\'s going to be hard to write that happy lick for a while.
Let\'s make music about peace!

The dancing Palestinians are in T-shirts and blue jeans.....

[Damon]

Esteven, I\'m glad to hear you are alright. That\'s quite a story and site to have seen. It must have seemed like a nightmare that you were ready to wake up from.
As Jeff Rona stated in his last chapter in \"The Reel World\" about a major earthquake that happened in California; when something catastrophic happens, it really puts things into perspective about what is truly important to us. Family and loved ones.
I just pray and hope that their will be no more attacks like this.


[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 09-12-2001).]

[RICARDO BOTTICELLI]

i think i\'m the only brazilian member in this forum so i would like to wish my condolent for all americans in my name and my country.
i love america i lived in boston last year.my brother in law is american and he lost friends in wtc.i\'m a flight attandant i have some friends in united airlines and for sure i can feel the pain .now is the time to pray a lot and hunt this monsters .let the other things for the \"pros\"
God shine the presindent bush mind and bless america.

[Arush]

i read most if not all of the posts regarding, and the core of the argument was definitly about the means of making the peace come back(paying back for innocent ppl etc etc)

well i can tell you that: i live with it every bloody day, and it is bloody when every day a man or a woman get slaughtered as an everyday routine, can u even dig that?can u dig that i have to drive in certain roads so i wont get shot, in my own country?

our goverment deals with this exact question since the begining of the intifada-will we give them this they will grant us peace etc etc. well, as u can figure out by now, none of this worked, it alwayes-ALLways came back to terror.

now i ask u people of america, your families have been slaughtered, your children have been decimated, and by thouseneds-these numbers preceedes OUR casualties of most israeli wars, what will u do now?
how can u tell when you are dealing with inncocent people or terrorists?

you can\'t.

you can either sit back and do some \"licks\" or u can compose a simphoney that will shake thier ground and make them terror with fear for trying again-its not like you\'re going to kill them all right?

that is my solution anyway.

[Chadwick]

Scarbee, Nichols - that\'s the thing I worry about most - an escalating process of response and counter response which spirals out of control.

My hope is that responsibility for this horror can be conclusively sheeted back to a single radical group; that the world stands by the process of bringing this group to justice, and that life returns to normal.

Damon, I pray that your friend is alive and well.

[Jamieh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>I just hope Bush doesn\'t do anything rash<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I\'m afraid there is little chance of that. The American people are calling for blood, and I suspect the American response may be far far stronger than anyone can possibly imagine. NATO has already said that if the US can prove who did it, they will offer whatever the US wants in terms of military assistance.

I suspect we may be looking at the precursor to WWIII. But maybe I am just being pessimistic.

[Synth2k]

Damon,

I feel for you. My cousin is in the area whom I have not heard from as well as several friends. Keep thinking positive thoughts - it\'s all I can do, and it seems to help with me anyway.

Ryan.

[SCARBEE]

I has been impossible for me to work today. Yesterday was the day od shock, I saw the crashes more than 30 times and in my sleep I saw it over and over again. Today has been the day of sorrow. I have tried myself to loose 3 close family members at an accident, where they were missing for 24 hours. I know the feeling. There are so may levels of this, that it is hard to understand: the victims in the airplanes and bulidings, the fireworkers and policemen who tried to help, the companies that have been almost eliminated, the world economic situation, the future of a nation living in freedom and just now I hear that NATO might be involved in a war agains the enmy - which could be Afganistan.

This is not the world I dream of.

I hope all of your families and friends are ok.

regards

Thomas

[Oliver]

They don\'t view any Americans as innocent. Because of this horrible aggression we will no longer view any of their people as innocents. Those bastards in that video clapping and cheering, made me sick! They should die just for looking as goofy as they do, much less that they want US all dead! duh! wake up \"folks\" anyone who hates America that much can and will continue to attack us in this way! It\'s impossible to defend vs. terrorism. Our only choice is to occupy those areas that harbor the enemy. Anyone that cheers for the killing of Americans is not innocent!

[nicholash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chadwick:
Scarbee, Nichols - that\'s the thing I worry about most - an escalating process of response and counter response which spirals out of control.

My hope is that responsibility for this horror can be conclusively sheeted back to a single radical group; that the world stands by the process of bringing this group to justice, and that life returns to normal.

Damon, I pray that your friend is alive and well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Chadwick,

I sincerely hope things don\'t spiral out of control. It is very worrying. These events have changed the world but, like yourself, I hope life will eventually return to relative normality. At the moment there is so much shock, sadness and anger. I hope the anger won\'t be vented in a way that most of us will regret later. I get the impression from the media that governments that would not normaly be allies are getting together to tackle world wide terrorism. I hope some good eventually comes out of this terrible tragedy.

Nicholas

[PaPa Chalk]

Hello all I\'ve been away from the forum for quite sometime because of the serious situation which happened in the past week.
I decided to take a peak at the forum and found this string of messages. Please stick to the topics of this forum. I had a very close family member who was in the world trade center at the time of this unbelievable event. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/frown.gif Very, Very close call for our family. We finally got in contact him.
Please try to keep the topic based on the forum as it\'s not making me or others feel any better about this.

It’s making it harder to deal with.

My deepest heart felt sympathy to all those families involved or have been touched in someway by this grotesque act.

Please I know it\'s hard not to feel some sense of emotion or angry but Please...Please lets not talk in this way on this board is inappropriate right now. It\'s certainly not making me or the other families feel any better and i have been touched directly by this.


If you like to give respect or condolences fine but let’s not go beyond that.

Thank you all for your previous support.
http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/frown.gif
PaPa Chalk