Real or Sampled?

[nicholash]

Getting responses to my main Real vs Sampled listening exercise was like pulling teeth. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

So, to get more discussion going, let\'s make it much easier:

Here is today\'s single 27 seconds long excerpt: http://www.btinternet.com/~veridical.sounds/9-10-2001.mp3 (\"http://www.btinternet.com/~veridical.sounds/9-10-2001.mp3\")

All I would like you to do is reply saying whether you think the \'pop\' style brass in this excerpt is real or sampled and give a reason for your opinion.

This time, I expect responses to flood in quickly. (I hope!)

Nicholas

[donnie]

Please correct me if I\'m wrong but thats just a cut from a late 70\'s tune that I can\'t seem to remember the name of...

Donnie

[Chadwick]

Some old Isacc Hayes song?

Sounds like real brass to me - the attacks keep varying, the timbre keeps varying, they start a bit out of time when they kick into the 16th motif. All the hallmarks of human beings http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[nicholash]

Hi Donnie,

Regardless of the tune, please say whether you think the brass is real or sampled and give the reason for your opinion.

Thanks
Nicholas
p.s. None of the excerpts from any of my \'real vs sampled\' listening exercises come from commercially available recordings.

[Sam]

To me it sounds like samples (good samples) played via midi. I\'m a horn player, and I just sort of imagine that I would add a subtle crescendo to the early sustained notes that I don\'t hear. A composer could fake it with the right expression programming, but it\'s a trick to program what\'s not difficult to play in a more interesting manner. There\'s so much action in the backup, wouldn\'t the conductor ask for more motion/expression from the horns?

At the end, what should be double tounging is not crisp enough, and that crescendo (tuka tuka duh, tuka tuka da da) just gets louder, not brassier.

I\'m trying to be critical here, if I just heard it on the radio, I wouldn\'t think anything was wrong with it, and it would fit right into a Barry White tune - I like it.

[nicholash]

Hi Sam,

It\'s nice to receive a response from a brass instrument player like yourself. Thanks for your detailed reply.

Nicholas

[MikeGraybill]

I\'d have to guess real. I only listened for a minute or so, but the differences in the opening repeated phrase lead me to this conclusion. Also, the double-tounging section while pretty tight, sounded varitously sloppy in that real way. Is varitously a word...?

Anyway, what I heard could have been smart writing on the programer/composer\'s part in that begining section, and the minute \"sloppy\" stuff might have just been my ears playing tricks on me becasuse of the horn player that was sustaining through some of that tongue action. Hard call, but I still think real.

-Mike-

[nicholash]

Hi Mike,

Thanks very much for your response.

You said: \"I only listened for a minute or so,...\". Why? The excerpt stops after 27 seconds. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Joking apart, I think that quite a few posters on this thread must be listening much more critically than myself to the excerpt. I myself wouldn\'t call the \'performance\' \"... sloppy\", \"... not crisp enough\", \"... a bit out of time\"! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Best regards
Nicholas

[Nick Phoenix]

Hopefully you don\'t jump down my throat, but it sounds like QL Brass.

[nicholash]

Hi Nick,

Welcome back from Ukelele country.
I want more responses yet before I provide the answer. However, I do own a license for your QL Brass. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Best regards
Nicholas

[KingIdiot]

Sounds like there is some punching in/cutting&pasting going on.

I\'m beginning to not care. It sounds good. It sounds real enough if its samples. I agree with the above tho, that the end crfecendo just seems to get louder not harsher. That could be from a copy and paste + volume tweak and not from reuse of samples tho.

So Uhm....can you just share? I think whats frustrating me the most with this Sampled vs real thing is that, if it is sampled it does sound really good and I\'d like to know what you did.


BTW-listening on Laptop with gameboy headphones....so it could still sound like crap http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif


------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 09-10-2001).]

[nicholash]

Hi KingIdiot,

Thanks for your response.

You say: \"Sounds like there is some punching in/cutting&pasting going on.\"

Very observant! (and to think I thought my editing skills were ok http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif )

Best regards
Nicholas

[Neal Keane]

The trombones up front sound too static and expressionless to be real...why would anybody record like that (well maybe Issac would...he\'s a bad mother-shut your mouth!). The trumpets seem to be mixed...three sampled + one live?

Thanks,
Neal

[nicholash]

Thanks Neal,

After I get a few more responses, I\'ll probably reveal the answer, then try another excerpt. By the way, does anyone want to guess if any other instrument(s) in that excerpt are real or sampled?

Best regards
Nicholas

[csduke]

Not real. In the opening Da-da,da,daahh. Da-da,da,daahh. There is a slight decrescendo at the very end of the \"daahh\"s of these sets that sounds a bit computerish to me.

The sloppiness of the performance does add a great deal to it\'s realism though.

I hope I\'m right and don\'t get the \"Shaft\";-)

Craig

[nicholash]

Hi Craig,

Thanks for your reply.

That\'s twice now the \'performance\' has been accused of sloppiness/being sloppy. I\'m glad that I can enjoy \'performances\' that others consider \'sloppy\'. It reminds me of a friend who has absolute (perfect) pitch, and he can\'t stand any out-of-tuneness. Luckily for me, I\'m not ultra sensitive in this respect! The same goes for tightness: I never quantize any of my midi performances, and a little lack of timing tightness doesn\'t bother me too much (thank goodness).

Best regards
Nicholas

[EBrown4]

Nicholas,

I\'ve already taken your 20-clip test, so do I get extra credit for this one?

I played this 27 second clip 6 or 8 times. The very first time, my impression was that the horns were samples - but probably the best horn samples I\'ve heard. Then they started sounding more real, so now I\'m not sure.

Someone else has pointed out that if you simply heard this on the radio, you could easily be fooled and think it was real. I completely agree with that.

But we KNOW you must have something up your sleeve, so I think we are predisposed to guess \"samples\", or at the very least a mix of sampled and real.

Anyhow, I think my ears are hearing something _slightly_ unnatural here, but I can\'t put my finger on it. My guess is therefore: sampled.

Dennis

[IOComposer]

My guess is that it\'s real players, but chopped up a bit, which would pretty much make it in the same respectability range of samples http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif
If it\'s not real, then it\'s a damn good example of samples getting the job done. If it is real, I would suggest you hire the section again http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif
-J

[mschiff]

I\'m a trombone player, and I guess samples. The repeated notes sound too much the same to be a person playing the song.

-- Martin

[MikeGraybill]

I think I left the wrong impression with the word \"sloppy.\" While its not the tightest thing I\'ve ever heard (I attend the University of North Texas and listen to the One O \'clock Lab Band regularly), it is still quite nice. Had I sequenced it, or been performing it, or even if I was just listening to it casually, I\'d be quite happy with it. But, when I try to identify \"sampled\" or \"real,\" one of the best identifiers is how accurate and \"overly tight\" it sounds.

Like I said, either the sequencer was good enough to convincingly add just the right amount of error to make it sound real, (and if this is the case then grats to the one that did it), or it\'s the real deal. Now that I listen again, I have to agree that it might be a mix. Real trumpets sampled bones, perhaps?

-Mike-

[nicholash]

Hi to all who responded since my last post,

Many thanks for all your contributions.

Mike: The \"One O \'clock Lab Band\" must be quite some band! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif It seems to me that if a \'performance\' is too tight (timing wise), the impression of realism starts becomimg compromised. Chadwick\'s phrase \"the hallmarks of human beings\" seems relevant here.

Dennis: Yes, you should get extra credit not only for trying this additonal exercise but for your detailed responses. I find it interesting that you start thinking the instruments may be sampled then, after more listening, real then, after even more listening, sampled again. Have you now put your finger on why you think your ears \"are hearing something _slightly_ unnatural here\"?

IOComposer: I did edit out some sections of the \'performance\' (i.e. bits without any brass in them) so that the mp3 wouldn\'t be too long. The first of the remaining three sections is about half the length of the excerpt and the other two each occupy half of the other half.

Martin: It is always good to get feedback from people who actually play some of the types of instrument(s) in the featured excerpt. Thanks.

I think I\'ll reveal the answer after one more response. Remember, please don\'t feel embarrassed if you get the answer wrong. It is interesting however to try and discover what makes for a \'fake\' sounding \'performance\' (e.g. unnatural sounding timing, particular miking techniques, artifacts that are often associated with sampled instruments, etc...)

Best regards
Nicholas

[SteveHanlon]

Is it sampled or is it...Memorex?

Well, I think they are mostly if not all samples because

1)The overall tones sound like professionals or people who can just play well.

but

2) The putting-together or the playing-together of the arrangement sounds like either professionals after they dranks a few pints or a person who hasn\'t tightened up his/her musical sequence (I would guess the latter)...or a sequencist after a few pints. (a sequencist is a person who is not a sequencer)

3)I would also venture to guess the guitarist smoked one too many joints (I wonder if \'joints\' will get edited out?) or the sample library/sequencing composer didn\'t take the time to make a clean funk-o-matic-Isaac-Hayes guitar part. (Can shaft ever be the same without that wah-wah guitar). The reverb is far too heavy making me think it comes stock like that in the libary or the mixing engineer likes lots o\' hall...and isn\'t very good at mixing.


or maybe I\'m all wrong and it\'s really some high school jazz band in North Dakota who just happen to know how to blow their horns but ain\'t got no soul.

[csduke]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nicholash:
Hi Craig,

Thanks for your reply.

That\'s twice now the \'performance\' has been accused of sloppiness/being sloppy. I\'m glad that I can enjoy \'performances\' that others consider \'sloppy\'. It reminds me of a friend who has absolute (perfect) pitch, and he can\'t stand any out-of-tuneness. Luckily for me, I\'m not ultra sensitive in this respect! The same goes for tightness: I never quantize any of my midi performances, and a little lack of timing tightness doesn\'t bother me too much (thank goodness).

Best regards
Nicholas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nicholas,

Please take no offense to my comments. The subtle timing irregularities ;-) in the performance are very characteristic of what I remember as the way \"Shaft\" was performed back then (in the studio not to mention every highSchool band in hemisphere). Isaac Hayes would \"dig-it.\"

I completely agree with your point that perfect timing in performances isn\'t real nor desirable and must be controlled (tighter for ensemble and looser for soloist and Isaac Hayes tunes). This makes this piece more difficult to discern as real or synthesized.

So Nicholas, in this case, sloppiness=goodJob

Craig

BTW. This is a great idea for a thread since it explores understanding *why* something does/doesn\'t sound real (which is different than *feeling* is doesn\'t sound real).

[nicholash]

Hi,

O.K. it\'s time to give the answer on this excerpt:

There are no sampled intruments in this particular excerpt. The recording was made with the microphones over 20 feet away from the nearest instrument.

Now that you know the answer, is there anyone that feels very surprised about this and, if so, please give your reasons why?

Thanks
Nicholas