Are these the trumpets you are looking for?

[Jamieh]

Ok, I did a little experimenting today and came up with a trumpet sound I am pretty excited about. Let me know what you think. Apologies to Mr. Williams for using his intellectual property here.
http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/heroes.mp3 (\"http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/heroes.mp3\")
http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/raiders.mp3 (\"http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/raiders.mp3\")

[RICARDO BOTTICELLI]

sounds nice!!!
tell us about.
thanx

[MikeGraybill]

Woah... I like! The attack is outstanding. I could have alot of fun with this. May I ask what you were experimenting with so that I might attempt an experiment of my own...?

Very Nice
-Mike-

[Jamieh]

Sorry, I was away from the computer since I posted.

No big tricks. Actually it was pretty simple. The sound you are hearing is a layer of 2 or 3 patches (depending on the intensity of the attack). I did very little tweaking after initially playing the part.

Two of the patches are from the newly released Dan Dean Solo Brass library (which I love) and the 3rd patch is from Quantum Leap Brass.

The Dan Dean Solo Brass trumpet has really captured the intensity of the attack that I was looking for, but I\'m not thrilled with the \"ensemble mode\" patch included with the library (ensemble mode is really just a bonus patch anyway--the point of the library is great solo instruments). So I layered it with the Quantum Leap trumpet ensemble, which I thought has a good sustained sound.

The result is this trumpet sound. If you listen to the actual recorded tracks of these songs, the trumpet sound in them is almost identical (IMO).

So mucho thanks to Dan (with a big assist from Nick) for finally getting me the trumpet ensemble sound I have wanted for about 20 years!

BTW, the trombone and tuba in the Dan Dean collection are really good too. I haven\'t played as much with the other instruments yet as I was having too much fun with the trumpets. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 09-10-2001).]

[KingIdiot]

Dan dean Brass here I come http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Sam]

I like the trumpet sound but not the reverb. Sounds like I couldn\'t get into the performance so I\'m listening from the cement entrance tunnel behind the stage.

Actually it sound like the NFX reverb, which I can\'t make sound damped or like a space that\'s both pleasant and realistic... Well there are plenty of digital reverbs that could do that ringy sound, but IMO it compromises your sound here.

[Thomas_J]

Sam, that is funny because I was just about to point out how I really liked the reverb on that example. It really adds to the realism. The Raiders.mp3 shows some great staccato sounds (probably from Dan Dean\'s Brass) that makes these trumpets sound great. Please upload more examples. I\'d like to hear how well the trumpet does on its own (without QLB). Obviously you\'re the man to make Dan Dean Brass demos. Please show us more. Trombone and horn would be great.

Thomas

[Jamieh]

Yes the staccato sounds are from the Dan Dean library. They are really tight.

Thomas, when I get home I will try to upload the same demos with the QLB ensemble removed. I really like how they work together, but I know that purchasing both libraries is expensive. It is possible that you could blend the Dan Dean brass with other brass libraries and get similar results.

As for the reverb, I am using the Orchestral Hall reverb off of my Roland VS-880 effects board. I\'ve always liked the sound it gives, but reverb preferences seem to be a very personal thing.

I DID attempt to match the sounds off of the actual recordings (one of which was recorded in Boston in a symphony hall) and I thought the reverb I used matched decently well. Remember that you don\'t hear trumpets playing by themselves in an orchstral hall much--usually the whole orchestra is playing too. They are really going to bounce around in there when they are the only instrumets playing and they are balls to the wall.

Maybe I will try to upload some dry examples too, but I don\'t have unlimited space. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 09-10-2001).]

[Thomas_J]

Yep you have that bright and crispy sound of decent Bb trumpet players in a properly spaced mic setup. Prefect ambience. I\'m really looking forward to more examples by you. Don\'t bother with dry examples. They are of little relevance IMO. I think your reverb is just fine.

Thomas

[MikeGraybill]

I gotta say I liked the reverb as well, and can\'t wait to hear more. The demos on DDPro left me a bit uncertain, but this cinches it. Plz upload some more stuff... It\'s gonna be almost 3 more weeks before I can buy, and that\'s a WHOLE lotta pacing.

Thanks for the sample, J.
-Mike-

[Jamieh]

I will try to give you guys some demos that are just the Dan Dean Library by itself. It was just natural for me to layer the sounds because that is what I have done with Dan\'s solo strings for a while. Plus I have been looking for good trumpet ensemble sounds FOREVER.

[IOComposer]

That trumpet sounds fantastic. It\'s got that sizzle in the high end that I haven\'t heard yet from any brass library (excluding my own http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif I will definitely buy this trumpet to compliment my brass ensemble. The mf example in Bruce Richardson\'s Holst demo sounds eerily realistic. If those dang midi sounding woodwinds weren\'t in the way of the mix distracting my attention, I wouldn\'t have questioned it\'s authenticity. I can\'t quite place what it is about those woodwinds, but they just sound silly to me (no offense Dan, if you\'re reading this). I just judge woodwinds very stringently and to my ears, these samples just don\'t sound realistic.
-J

[Jamieh]

IO, I had the exactly same reaction to the woodwinds in that Holst piece. For whatever reason, they just don\'t sound right.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 09-10-2001).]

[Haydn]

I could tell it was the Quantum Leap Brass Ensemble but I could\'nt quite put my finger on the added sounds. I have been layering my brass like that but the AO trumpet on top just makes the sound to buzzy! Could you sequence the same part but break into the chords at the end? Going from unison to 3 part chords always sounds funny and I would like to hear how it sounds with the Dan Dean Brass.

IOComposer, woodwinds from one library playing together never sound right to me either. It always gets that organ/synthesizer sound.

[Jamieh]

Haydn, heroes.mp3 has a section that breaks into 2-parts that sounds good. I\'ll see if I can do something that breaks into 3-parts for you.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 09-10-2001).]

[IOComposer]

Jamie,
Did you buy the DD french horn? I\'m curious to hear it represented well. Since you do good demos, would you mind posting something when you get a chance?
-J

[This message has been edited by IOComposer (edited 09-10-2001).]

[Craig_L]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jamieh:
[B]Ok, I did a little experimenting today and came up with a trumpet sound I am pretty excited about. Let me know what you think. Apologies to Mr. Williams for using his intellectual property here.


I\'ve posted the same theme (more apologies to Mr. Williams)using a different brass library. See what you think.
http:/briefcase.yahoo.com/duoartc
in the music folder. Also there is the Tchaikovsky string pizzi from the 4th Symphony using the same library (with midi file).

[IOComposer]

I\'ll take a guess, Craig...
Roland JV? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif
Not really in the same league as the DD trumpet, sorry http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/frown.gif
-J

[Chadwick]

Craig - thanks for putting that up - it\'s a handy point of comparison.

Jamie\'s has more that \'away near the back of the orchestra\' vibe that is so difficult to get with most close mic\'d sample recordings, as well as a more fluid timbre on the longer sustains, and what seems like more options (velocities?) on the initial attacks.

[clueless]

I also like the reverb but I wonder if you can be prevailed upon to post a version without reverb. Dry is always so revealing.

clueless

[RICARDO BOTTICELLI]

Jamieh come on tell us about your tricks!!!
thanx

[Craig_L]

Yes, points taken. It doesn\'t cut it compared to Jamieh\'s. Library was the Roland Orchestral series - two patches. I like the idea of comparing sounds from the same midi files - obviously classical in the public domain is the better way to go like the Tchaikovsky pizzi.

[KingIdiot]

There is a big problem with comparing MIDI files. Most of the Files are \"calibrated\" for one library. and dont\' really showcase ow good a library or even a combination of libraries can sound.

I\'ve been finding that with Giga I calibrate instruments I build a little differently than older libraries because I can build such HUGE instruments.

most of the libraries available were built and calibrated for an older samplign format with different playback feattures.

comparing GOS to say AO Strings with the same MIDI file is jsut not going to be a fair test. Both libraries were designed VERY differently. Comparing QLB and AO with the same MIDI isn\'t fair. Both are VERY differnt...not to mention developed by different ears.

anyhow Trying to mimic a sound with a different library WITH A DIFFERENT MIDI file is a better comparison...but never the SAME MIDI file.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Jamieh]

Ok more demos:

First for Haydn, another demo with DD Trumpet layered on QLB trumpet ensemble, this time breaking into 3 part harmony (thanks Craig Safan)
http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/starfighter.mp3 (\"http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/starfighter.mp3\")

Now for some Dan Dean Solo Brass only demos:

Here is the trumpet solo from the opening of JFK (Williams) (note: had to reduce MP3 quality to make the file smaller)
http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/jfk.mp3 (\"http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/jfk.mp3\")

Next a trombone playing part of \"The Wild Blue Yonder\":
http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/yonder.mp3 (\"http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/yonder.mp3\")

Here\'s a tuba just playing something random:
http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/tuba.mp3 (\"http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/tuba.mp3\")

Here is a french horn playing a horn solo from Braveheart (Horner):
http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/braveheart.mp3 (\"http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/braveheart.mp3\")

Here is the horn playing the short lick from Hook we talked about before:
http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/hook.mp3 (\"http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/hook.mp3\")

There are more instruments in the Dan Dean set (piccolo trumpet, euphonium, cimbasso) but I haven\'t loaded those yet. For the people that wanted dry demos, I just ran out of server space and time. You\'ll have to get dry demos somewhere else. Personally I think this is a library that you want to run through some good orchestra hall reverb to get the best results.

I would have loved to put in all the other parts around these solos, but that would just take too much time. Plus this lets you hear the instruments exposed.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 09-11-2001).]

[Craig_L]

Great demos Jamieh. I assumed the midi files are \"played in\" on keyboard rather than programmed. The Dan Dean library sounds pretty tempting. Thanks for your reply Kingidiot - I think I know what you\'re getting at. I had one last go at the Raiders theme with different patches, still on http:/briefcase.yahoo.com/duoartc under music - RaidersII. But I think I need a new library and some lessons. Clueless - without the reverb, it\'s pretty naked.

[Jamieh]

Yes, I always play everything in. That is the only way to make things sounds real IMO. I would like to try a wind controller one day--right now I just use a keyboard.

[Rudi]

Jamieh,

Very good demos. The ensemble playing on startfighter.mp3 is really nice - the 3 parts blend particularly well and the tone has just that right brightness.

For me the outstanding demo is the JFK trumpet solo. What a warm, vibrant and expressive sound. What controller(s) did you use to control the sound? There are some good sounding attacks and crescendos...

I also really like the reverb setting you used on that piece: unobtrusive but with enough sense of space to make you feel it was played in a real place. What unit / plugin did you use? It\'s a very nice, modern, slightly \"produced\" sound.

Thanks for sharing your work with us,

Cheers,

Rudi

[Thomas_J]

Great work Jamieh. The trumpet sounds great. The horn doesn\'t sound good at all though. The trombone is very nice, and so is the tuba. I don\'t think that JFK solo was all that convincing. Sounds very artificial to me, but I guess you\'ll have a hard time making it sound real without interval samples. Besides, isn\'t that solo played on cornet? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Starfighter is spot on, and again it shows the beauty of the trumpet staccato samples. I\'ll probably buy the trombone and the trumpet, but not the horn, for pretty obvious reasons I\'d say.

Thomas

[KingIdiot]

I still go back and use my VS-1680 verbs from time to time with Orchestral Reverbs. The only problem I have with them are a slightly metallic/harmonic overring with some loud samples and the lack of stereo spread. With alot of mixes tho it sounds really nice.

I remember a couple od years ago I posted a HUGE reverb threaad on the VSPlanet. You might want to check it out Jamieh, I dont remeber it all and I dont know if its inthe archives, but I know Mooseboy has it somewhere. There were alot of tricks going on and even 4 rever patches being used for ONE sound at times.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[KingIdiot]

Jamieh

Have you tried layering the Trombones yet?

I was planning on using DD with expression control to get some \"Swells\" with the bright sounds.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Jamieh]

Nope, I haven\'t tried it yet, but I imagine it will work. IMO The trombone ensembles in QLB are pretty good already so that wasn\'t a primary concern.

[KingIdiot]

I like the QLB trombones when I layer the staccottos underneath the sustain. I just wonder what knd of extra \"exressiveness\" Id get out of the layer. The amount of layers inteh staccattos on DD must add alot to the expressive sound. Also the sound of the layer of DD and QLB is pretty nice in the trumpets, jsut the differences in playing and sound giev it a nice thicker sound. it makes me pretty curious of the Trombone sound.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Jamieh]

Thomas, I think the horn could have its uses for quiet pieces and perhaps layered in an ensemble sound, but I agree that it isn\'t my favorite. If you listen to the Braveheart soundtrack, the solo horn sound in there is quite similar. But it certainly isn\'t the super brassy sound that the other instruments in the set have.

The JFK solo might sound better if I went back and played with volume levels. I just played it in and recorded it without any editing, so some of the sustains are pretty static. I should go back and play with it.

I\'m pretty sure the original solos were trumpet solos played by Tim Morrison, who was the principal trumpet in the Boston Pops. I guess he might have used a coronet, but there is no mention in the album and I honestly couldn\'t tell you from listening.

I want everyone to remember that the ensemble trumpet samples I have shown here ARE a blend of Dan Dean and QLB, and I did have to mess around with levels for a bit to get it to sound right.

One thing to think about--if you buy the library by instrument, you actually buy it by disc. So the non-vibrato trumpet and the vibrato trumpet are considred two separate instrumments. The way I figured it, I wanted the trumpet, piccolo trumpet (which i haven\'t played with yet) trombone and tuba, which adds up to 6 instruments. At the individual instrument price, that is almost the same price of the full set, so I just got the whole thing.

[Jamieh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>For me the outstanding demo is the JFK trumpet solo. What a warm, vibrant and expressive sound. What controller(s) did you use to control the sound? There are some good sounding attacks and crescendos...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rudi, I used a crappy old velocity sensitive keyboard that I picked up for $150 back in 1993. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Plus I have a Kenton Midi Control Freak slider box, but I don\'t think I used it on JFK. There are 8 levels of volume built into the sample, so you can really alter the sound by how hard you are playing. As for the creschendos--if you are talking about the sustains that is just the way the sample is recorded. If you are talking about when I get louder, I am just playing on the keyboard slightly harder.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
I also really like the reverb setting you used on that piece: unobtrusive but with enough sense of space to make you feel it was played in a real place. What unit / plugin did you use? It\'s a very nice, modern, slightly \"produced\" sound. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Roland VS-880 effects board Large Orchestra Hall reverb. I\'ve always liked it for orchestral music.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
Great work Jamieh. The trumpet sounds great. The horn doesn\'t sound good at all though.
Thomas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Thomas,

Here is a short quintet excerpt, in which I think the horn works very well:
http://www.dandeanpro.com/mp3/bankelsangerlieder.mp3 (\"http://www.dandeanpro.com/mp3/bankelsangerlieder.mp3\")

I have actually found that the horn is one of the most responsive instruments in the collection, and you can get a very brassy sound out of it at the upper dynamics. It would require maybe a bit of EQ cut in the 125-250 hz range if you wanted it to sizzle \"distantly\" in a large ensemble situation. Of course, within GigaStudio, that would require something resembling an actual EQ, which is another story altogether :P

I think the response immediately after the opening phrase, with tuba, horn, and trombone demonstrates just how facile these instruments are. You absolutely cannot play a line like this on any other brass library of which I am aware, let alone do it with only the sustain articulation.

[Jamieh]

If anyone is interested in how the individual brass instruments I demoed above fit together, I threw them all in a piece for the first time tonight. The brass is all a mix of Dan Dean Brass & Quantum Leap Brass with my Roland helping out with the horns.

The following mp3 is a quick midi mock up of a scene for a film I am currently working on. The plan is to record it with a real orchestra. To be honest, considering the budget I think I will be lucky if the real brass players sound as good as the sampled ones....... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Please excuse the percussion--I need to get Donnie\'s Ultimate Percussion library now that I have enough memory in my computer. Also, the forte pianos were done very quickly with a volume slider just to give the director an idea of what it would sound like--I didn\'t use the sampled forte pianos.
http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/caridea.mp3 (\"http://www.nwlink.com/~jamieh/caridea.mp3\")



[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 09-19-2001).]